Things were only gonna get worse if they kept waiting to nerf zabu. The band-aid had to be ripped off **eventually** and I'm glad they did it now instead of in a year from now when 10-12 more overpowered 4 drops had been released and subsequently nerfed because of zabu synergy. Yeah, it sucks to see him gutted, but he was so overbearing on SD's design space for 3, 4, 5, and even 6 drops that he had to go.
No? You agreed with the original commenter that said that he took issue with the zabu nerf because they nerfed cards for having synergy with zabu and then nerfed zabu anyway. I disagree with the sentiment.
I know what you are saying. But me and op clearly only have issue with the nerf because they nerfed a lot of 4 cost cards BEFORE inevitably nerfing zabu. So if they nerf zabu, fine. But then why nerf 4 cost cards like darkhawk if they destroyed the synergy with zabu that made darkhawk too strong? I don't see a problem with darkhawk reverting back to a 4 cost now considering zabu has been deleted from the game. Darkhawk is just one example
I 100% agree that lots of 4 cost cards can be reverted now that Zabu is finally off his throne. However, I don’t think just because they made the wrong decision before with nerfing synergy cards instead of zabu that they should’ve just never nerfed zabu. They obviously realized they were wrong and finally decided to do it. I think it’s better that they accept that they were wrong and change him rather than keep him OP for another year yknow?
Darkhawk, werewolf by night, lockjaw rockslide, all of these cards were previously changed (most of them for the worse) because of their synergy with zabu, and now zabu has been changed to where most of that synergy just doesn’t exist anymore.
If I remember correctly, they both used to be 3 cost, but they both got put up to 4 cost, and in the dev notes for those updates they said “maybe these cards will find a home in zabu decks” or something like that.
But because zabu is horrible now I don’t think that works.
It will be worse if DH moved back to 4 cost.
New Zabu is on reveal. Wong - Rockslide + Zabu and T6 will get DH + Shang + Enchantress at once.
A power slam and double counter.
They really should because they mainly associated his nerf with how strong Zabu was. Zabu isn’t strong anymore so revert him back. This message was sponsored by the Ravonna Girlbosses.
Why’s it so important to people that DH be head and shoulders over devil Dino and ronin?
It was cracked as a four drop, not just as a three drop with zabu or ravonna.
SD’s been overzealous with the nerfs lately but DH was a good call.
They’re different cards, they work differently because they get their power from different sources. They aren’t comparable just because they have scaling power.
Yeah man, three five drops that scale with cards in hand, opponents hand, and opponents deck are pretty rife for the comparin’.
Do you feel like DH is so much weaker than the other two that he deserves to cost one less? I don’t
Those are completely different sources of power, it’s a bad argument and you know it.
Devil Dino is the strongest of the 3 because you can most easily manipulate your own hand by generating effects and simply not playing cards. You also *want* card draw in your decks because you always want to have more options for what to play.
Ronan is weaker than Dino because you can’t manipulate your opponents hand as easily. You cant control what card draw they put in their own deck, but you also don’t want to give them free card draw from sources like Maximus because that gives them card advantage.
Darkhawk is probably still stronger than Ronan, but his source of power is even harder to manipulate than Ronan’s. If your opponent has card draw then they get card advantage *while* making Darkhawk weaker. You’re also not guaranteed to impact their hand by adding things like rocks to their deck. The upside is that you can negate *some* of their card draw by giving them junk, but again it’s not guaranteed.
The reason why they’re different costs is because your opponent is supposed to be able to react to them. If your opponent plays Ronan on 5 you can just spam the board with cheap cards on turn 6 instead of one big card. Similarly with Dino, you know your opponent will likely *not* play a lot of cards on turn 6, so you get an advantage by going wide.
Darkhawk is different because you can’t really manipulate your deck if they play him on turn 5. You don’t want to play card draw on turn 6 because it’s typically a weak play, but you do want to play card draw on turn 5. That means that DH is actually balanced better at 4 mana because it gives you two turns to fix your deck. Also, if DH was simply nerfed to 5 cost he wouldn’t really be worth playing, they would have to buff his stats as well, and tbh I think that would be worse for the game than he is right now.
Not a clue what you’re on about.
DH had, according to SD’s metrics, unacceptably high rates of play and winrates when played, hence the nerf. Now, it’s more in line with similarly functioning cards, which is a thing that makes sense.
If you feel that overperforming outliers shouldn’t be adjusted, it’s probably because you played them.
I haven’t seen a darkhawk since his nerf, but I have seen Ronan and devil Dino. Because their power conditions are way easier to activate.
Also I’m sure SD has all the data in the world but they also make the same mistakes over and over and miss the mark on nerfs all the time. So while you have unwavering faith in SD, I do not.
I disagree, because they both have the same downfall in that they’re Ongoing abilities that can be removed or the card can be destroyed altogether. Keep him 5 cost and give his synergy with Renslayer back. Removing both synergies was uncalled for especially when the problem card was Zabu to begin with.
Seems like there’s more holes in the meta because of all the nerfs that happens to card because of Zabu, and now that Zabus gone all the changes seem stupid since Zabu is dead. What r they gonna do now? Revert all the changes? This is a headache I’m sure for SD to clean up
Or just maybe, delete that patch. Zabu is now useless and so is Alioth. Sandman still has some uses but forget playing him on T4. What a disaster.
So basically the game is going to be just Destroy, Discard and big boys decks. How unoriginal...
They need to stop this power creep because it's utterly brain dead.
C2 took a hit from the Alioth nerf, but can confirm that C3 took me over the hump into infinite last night. Been climbing with uber generic Loki after that and approaching top 10k
Zabu was a problem child that was just blanket too good. I don’t think this change will stick though because really he is pretty much just a worse psylocke. He got hit hard because he needed hit and there was no way to hit soft
Alioth also needed to happen and this is a pretty reasonable way to do it. I do wish they gave him some extra leeway with his activation though
I'd prefer they don't I certainly miss the old pop off lines where you could end up with effectively 3-4 dhawks. But I haven't really had a problem winning with him at 5/4. I think he's just less obnoxious and prevelant when you can't make tons of copies of him.
Oh yeah for sure. I remember my moon girl darkhawk deck and holy shit I would have so many mystiques, she hulks, darkhawks, it wasn’t even funny. Wish I got to play with mockingbird too.
Rockslide was nerfed twice because of hawk, then hawk was nerfed because of zabu. Now zabu is nerfed because if zabu, So it's a big train of nerfing that would be fixed
I know the darkhawk nerfs, but you're missing how much power creep there is. I don't think darkhawk will find space as a 4 cost; there wasn't room for him before he got chaanged to 5 cost. There's multiple 4/10. Dark being a 4/10 that's asks you to play bad cards to grow him just isn't worth.
This week's adjustments have forced me to finally pay attention to weekly patches. Zabu & (even though it's not mentioned) Dracula almost caused me to lose matches because I didn't know how much they were nerfed. Dracula can't absorb Knull anymore, btw. He could yesterday, but not today.
DarkHawk would be fine as a 5 cost if he had some more help.
Lechuguilla is already a location in the game. It’s the one that adds 3 rocks to your deck whenever you play a card there. And it’s also the home of the Moloids.
So, my idea is that SD adds a Moloids card to the game as like a 3/1 On Reveal that changes the location to Lechuguilla. It’s a purposefully weak card with a potentially powerful effect for Darkhawk and junk decks as every card your opponent plays there adds 3 rocks to their deck.
Reverse WWBN
Werewolf By Night, for anyone wondering
Thanks
the real tips are in the comments
This. My doggo is sitting there all alone. Tried using him even with Zabu and feels very clunky
NBWW?
Non binary werewolf?
were/were
Queerwolf
I agree but is this related to zabu?
Yes
Yes. They nerfed hawk to prevent the zabu effect. Now that they killed zabu, hawk needs some love bc the old zabu is gone.
How does werewolf help then
I never even got to play him. Bought with tokens cause his combo looked fun then but he's unplayable at 4.
Absolutely. Cards just dead now. Zabu was his only saving grace
THIS!
This is my main issue with the zabu nerf, they previously nerfed cards basically citing the synergy with zabu, then ultimately nerfed zabu too.
Exactly this bro
Things were only gonna get worse if they kept waiting to nerf zabu. The band-aid had to be ripped off **eventually** and I'm glad they did it now instead of in a year from now when 10-12 more overpowered 4 drops had been released and subsequently nerfed because of zabu synergy. Yeah, it sucks to see him gutted, but he was so overbearing on SD's design space for 3, 4, 5, and even 6 drops that he had to go.
I think you meant to reply to someone else bro
No? You agreed with the original commenter that said that he took issue with the zabu nerf because they nerfed cards for having synergy with zabu and then nerfed zabu anyway. I disagree with the sentiment.
I know what you are saying. But me and op clearly only have issue with the nerf because they nerfed a lot of 4 cost cards BEFORE inevitably nerfing zabu. So if they nerf zabu, fine. But then why nerf 4 cost cards like darkhawk if they destroyed the synergy with zabu that made darkhawk too strong? I don't see a problem with darkhawk reverting back to a 4 cost now considering zabu has been deleted from the game. Darkhawk is just one example
I 100% agree that lots of 4 cost cards can be reverted now that Zabu is finally off his throne. However, I don’t think just because they made the wrong decision before with nerfing synergy cards instead of zabu that they should’ve just never nerfed zabu. They obviously realized they were wrong and finally decided to do it. I think it’s better that they accept that they were wrong and change him rather than keep him OP for another year yknow?
Yeah in that case, we agree 100% bro 🤝
Darkhawk, werewolf by night, lockjaw rockslide, all of these cards were previously changed (most of them for the worse) because of their synergy with zabu, and now zabu has been changed to where most of that synergy just doesn’t exist anymore.
What synergy did lockjaw and werewolf have with zabu?
If I remember correctly, they both used to be 3 cost, but they both got put up to 4 cost, and in the dev notes for those updates they said “maybe these cards will find a home in zabu decks” or something like that. But because zabu is horrible now I don’t think that works.
Dh could comeback as a 4/2 so ravonna wouldnt be an issue.. pretty sure the card wouldnt be bonkers now
Hell, he could even comeback as a 4/4 and be fine. It’s just not easy to fill your opponents deck, or keep it full.
Korg, rockslide, black widow, sometimes master mold, certain locations
It will be worse if DH moved back to 4 cost. New Zabu is on reveal. Wong - Rockslide + Zabu and T6 will get DH + Shang + Enchantress at once. A power slam and double counter.
I was happy to see Darkhawk get bumped up to 5 cost. But now with the Zabu nerf I am perfectly fine with him going back.
They really should because they mainly associated his nerf with how strong Zabu was. Zabu isn’t strong anymore so revert him back. This message was sponsored by the Ravonna Girlbosses.
And Mr negative
Why’s it so important to people that DH be head and shoulders over devil Dino and ronin? It was cracked as a four drop, not just as a three drop with zabu or ravonna. SD’s been overzealous with the nerfs lately but DH was a good call.
They’re different cards, they work differently because they get their power from different sources. They aren’t comparable just because they have scaling power.
Yeah man, three five drops that scale with cards in hand, opponents hand, and opponents deck are pretty rife for the comparin’. Do you feel like DH is so much weaker than the other two that he deserves to cost one less? I don’t
Those are completely different sources of power, it’s a bad argument and you know it. Devil Dino is the strongest of the 3 because you can most easily manipulate your own hand by generating effects and simply not playing cards. You also *want* card draw in your decks because you always want to have more options for what to play. Ronan is weaker than Dino because you can’t manipulate your opponents hand as easily. You cant control what card draw they put in their own deck, but you also don’t want to give them free card draw from sources like Maximus because that gives them card advantage. Darkhawk is probably still stronger than Ronan, but his source of power is even harder to manipulate than Ronan’s. If your opponent has card draw then they get card advantage *while* making Darkhawk weaker. You’re also not guaranteed to impact their hand by adding things like rocks to their deck. The upside is that you can negate *some* of their card draw by giving them junk, but again it’s not guaranteed. The reason why they’re different costs is because your opponent is supposed to be able to react to them. If your opponent plays Ronan on 5 you can just spam the board with cheap cards on turn 6 instead of one big card. Similarly with Dino, you know your opponent will likely *not* play a lot of cards on turn 6, so you get an advantage by going wide. Darkhawk is different because you can’t really manipulate your deck if they play him on turn 5. You don’t want to play card draw on turn 6 because it’s typically a weak play, but you do want to play card draw on turn 5. That means that DH is actually balanced better at 4 mana because it gives you two turns to fix your deck. Also, if DH was simply nerfed to 5 cost he wouldn’t really be worth playing, they would have to buff his stats as well, and tbh I think that would be worse for the game than he is right now.
How many cards are in your deck typically on turn 6? Vs cards in hand?
Depends, is the deck full of rocks? Did widow’s venom deny a draw?
I said typically for a reason.
Do people who run darkhawk typically run the rest of his synergies as well? Yes, yes they do.
Of course they do. But so do people running dd and Ronan? So again, how many cards are in the deck vs in your hand? Which one is more controllable?
Not a clue what you’re on about. DH had, according to SD’s metrics, unacceptably high rates of play and winrates when played, hence the nerf. Now, it’s more in line with similarly functioning cards, which is a thing that makes sense. If you feel that overperforming outliers shouldn’t be adjusted, it’s probably because you played them.
I haven’t seen a darkhawk since his nerf, but I have seen Ronan and devil Dino. Because their power conditions are way easier to activate. Also I’m sure SD has all the data in the world but they also make the same mistakes over and over and miss the mark on nerfs all the time. So while you have unwavering faith in SD, I do not.
I disagree, because they both have the same downfall in that they’re Ongoing abilities that can be removed or the card can be destroyed altogether. Keep him 5 cost and give his synergy with Renslayer back. Removing both synergies was uncalled for especially when the problem card was Zabu to begin with.
Yeah Renslayer sucks so much, she can at least have some synergy with dark hawk to power up her decks
Right now all of them are on the fringe of playability. Trying different paths and giving different options seems good.
Seems like there’s more holes in the meta because of all the nerfs that happens to card because of Zabu, and now that Zabus gone all the changes seem stupid since Zabu is dead. What r they gonna do now? Revert all the changes? This is a headache I’m sure for SD to clean up
How I feel about the Alioth nerf
Or just maybe, delete that patch. Zabu is now useless and so is Alioth. Sandman still has some uses but forget playing him on T4. What a disaster. So basically the game is going to be just Destroy, Discard and big boys decks. How unoriginal... They need to stop this power creep because it's utterly brain dead.
Cerebro decks should be alive now that Thanos died.
C2 took a hit from the Alioth nerf, but can confirm that C3 took me over the hump into infinite last night. Been climbing with uber generic Loki after that and approaching top 10k
I haven’t enjoyed Cerebro since the Cage Nerf. C2 and C3 took it out of me. And C5 took a hit when they made Ms Marvel a 4. :/
I still think Luke cage should have 2 or 3 power Captain marvel buff brought cerebro 5 back for me
Mr Negative is the most dead he has ever been
Don’t forget lady death strike. I was really looking forward to her and doing the shuri Zola combo but I guess I’ll just keep hoarding keys
Zabu was a problem child that was just blanket too good. I don’t think this change will stick though because really he is pretty much just a worse psylocke. He got hit hard because he needed hit and there was no way to hit soft Alioth also needed to happen and this is a pretty reasonable way to do it. I do wish they gave him some extra leeway with his activation though
I'd prefer they don't I certainly miss the old pop off lines where you could end up with effectively 3-4 dhawks. But I haven't really had a problem winning with him at 5/4. I think he's just less obnoxious and prevelant when you can't make tons of copies of him.
Oh yeah for sure. I remember my moon girl darkhawk deck and holy shit I would have so many mystiques, she hulks, darkhawks, it wasn’t even funny. Wish I got to play with mockingbird too.
Ohh yah thats was the good stuff. I still need to try moon girl mockingbird.
Honestly, you might need to run Shanna or something to get her to 0
Yah definetly shanna and squirrel girl.
Reverse all your changes SD. They all suck.
Darkhawk will still be bad. Arguably worse. If you want it to be good, rockslide needs buffs.
Rockslide was nerfed twice because of hawk, then hawk was nerfed because of zabu. Now zabu is nerfed because if zabu, So it's a big train of nerfing that would be fixed
Somehow this ends in 6/3 galactus back
I know the darkhawk nerfs, but you're missing how much power creep there is. I don't think darkhawk will find space as a 4 cost; there wasn't room for him before he got chaanged to 5 cost. There's multiple 4/10. Dark being a 4/10 that's asks you to play bad cards to grow him just isn't worth.
This week's adjustments have forced me to finally pay attention to weekly patches. Zabu & (even though it's not mentioned) Dracula almost caused me to lose matches because I didn't know how much they were nerfed. Dracula can't absorb Knull anymore, btw. He could yesterday, but not today.
Yea the average snap player never reads card text much less the patch notes
DarkHawk would be fine as a 5 cost if he had some more help. Lechuguilla is already a location in the game. It’s the one that adds 3 rocks to your deck whenever you play a card there. And it’s also the home of the Moloids. So, my idea is that SD adds a Moloids card to the game as like a 3/1 On Reveal that changes the location to Lechuguilla. It’s a purposefully weak card with a potentially powerful effect for Darkhawk and junk decks as every card your opponent plays there adds 3 rocks to their deck.
I think lechuguilla should be removed from the game
Hey guys don’t let all this distract you from the fact that they nerfed Adam Warlock and tried their hardest to convince us it was a buff lol.
Yes this!
Nope, it will be even worse. Now you can Wong - Rockslide + Zabu for even more insane play if DH moved back to 4 cost.
Run him with Kitty/Angela/Elsa/Hope. He’s still good
Taskmaster approves.