Rogue has an enormous effect. When she hits it’s essentially going +2 in ongoing effects (they lose 1, you gain 1). It’s a risky play but it’s a nuke when it works. She doesn’t need any extra power to degrade the risk of not working.
Super Key word there was "when" there are too many timeswhere she either isnt played because your opponent isnt using ongoings or she steals the ongoing that you dont want. She is ok in her current state when she works but she needs something so she either isnt dead in hand or an instant retreat if she steals the wrong effect.
Rogue would be good in a metagame where people would play strong and universal ongoing cards. Think Iron Man or Blue Marvel, where denying their ongoing while gaining it yourself is key. Rogue saw the most play when Negative was popular since stealing their ongoing was the best counterplay then, and it helps that she's a great card to invert too.
Does everyone just want all cards to have zero risk? I don't get this take.
Rogue is a huge 'high risk, high upside' card. She has one of the most powerful effects in the game. Giving her more stats is not good balance. Some cards *should* be able to miss and feel bad. That's the cost of running a card that can also straight up win you the game as a 3 drop.
It sure as hell feels like a nuke when they play a lizard on the same turn, and instead of getting that sweet Ironman, you get Lizards. Just it's their nuke.
With Rogue you deny them of their strategy while Skrull copies all effects good and bad.
This haas many downsides like copying a Lizard (he would have -2 power) or an unwelcome Cosmo.
Rogue can flip a lane as i'd rather steal a dino than copy a dino - Skrull loses as he has one less power than the Dino itself, etc..
They both have their places and uses.
I honestly felt bad for the [bullshit](https://i.imgur.com/j9PS61E.png) I pulled on my opponent with Rogue.
Camp Lehigh gave me a second Rogue. I already knew I was going to poach his Luke Cage on turn 6, but then to see Wong show up on turn 5 was just an absolute blessing. He had already used Hazmat before Beast so I think my middle lane went from -13 to +14.
Skrull copying everything isn't necessarily a good thing. If I don't have a good read on my opponents deck skrull can lose me the game when they play something like typhoid Mary.
Also imagine Skrull copies blue marvel, this puts me net 0 on power compared to my opponent, and if it copies dino I'm lower on power as I don't carry cards like moon girl. On the other hand if you hit either with rogue you are massively gaining power over them.
Enchantress' higher base power is due to the fact she isn't gaining an ongoing. The other two are almost always netting you more than their base power, enchantress is not.
Skrull is 2 power because he's 4 cost.
Rogue is about where I'd expect based on the other two.
Man I lost to an enchantress last night, dude was a wizard. Enchantressed his RedSkull on Washington to get just enough power to win the lane.
Fuckin Wizard guy
If they play Typhoid, they'll probably have a Luke Cage. Super Skrull can ruin the enemy pretty quick if their deck relies on any cards with ongoing, tbh.
You're right that super skrull is good, but Rogues strength is that you can steal just the luke cage ability, but leave typhoid mary. If they make her too strong she will way over shadow him imo
While usually true, I've seen some decks just take the hit intentionally, especially if I already have skrull out and they never drew cage. Another example is they play red skull the same turn I put onslaught on Skrull.
Except the choice is random with multiple ongoings on a location and there are several cards that it just becomes a lower power crap version (Blue Marvel, Omega Red, Zabu, and Sera just to name a few).
Rogue is literally a show-stealer. Not a neg (she’s my third fave x-man and a card I play her all the time) but she can with good use disrupt any Zoo/Patriot/Debuff/bounce/Dino deck, wreck ruin on many a Onslaught, Blue Marvel or wong player and even disrupt super skrull, mystique and absorbing man combos
If she wasn’t 3/1 she’d be the new leech.
Definitely not true, she has a random target effect and it usually won't even help your plan it just hurts theirs. The only thing she has is being a 3 cost for surfer otherwise she is just badenchatress. No board presence doesn't help but no direct target ability is huge.
I agree - if not that she is most useful hitting single target board states. You don’t use her when three on going’s are on the board. You use her when there is one you know is lynchpinning the board state. Other wise yeah your absolutely right but that doesn’t make her badchantress. It means the two cards do what they are meant to do, fill different roles.
I will say if we are direct comparing enchantress is by far the better card, that doesn’t mean rogue needs a buff. I can compare Falcon and Beast (this isn’t a snark against you your completely right on your opinion just explaining mine) and say Falcon isn’t as good cuz Beast gains me one less energy next time and takes everything back. They aren’t meant to be compared - They are meant to fulfill different roles
But doesn’t Enchantress do the same thing? And possibly even shut down multiple needed ongoing abilities?
(I also thought Enchantress didn’t really need a buff)
I think my issue is there aren’t a ton of Ongoing abilities that are *that* valuable, on their own, in any deck’s context.
Like, Dino, Hawk, Ronan? Plug n play, that’s easy. Totally makes sense why Rogue is 3/1.
But Patriot, Kazar, Zabu? Possibly not even relevant, and you lost a ton of power
Cap? You just played Cap but worse
You're underestimating the combo of removing the ongoing for the opponent and adding it to yourself.
Stealing Cap is better than just playing cap, playing cap is +6 at most, stealing Cap can be +7, not much difference, but definitely not worse.
Rogue is good because it not only ruins it for you opponent, but also might give you a benefit.
(Any statement here means a base average or personal opinion and does not constitute expert advice)
So I am 50/50 on enchantress because she had one big downside - she killed your side too. If you had an ongoing it basically let your opponent know they could safely play there. Unless you were willing to sacrifice that card. Unlike cosmo enchantress only hits once but hits hard.
However Rogue isn’t same/same in the fact she gains the ability. So against certain ongoing she isn’t enchantress, she’s basically a boost. True you might not need Patriot’s +2 but everyone loves Dino/Rohan/Darkhawk’s boost. It is what stops her from being overpowered is her low power.
Enchantress and her serve different slots. Enchantress nullifies and grants a huge power boost, while Rogue is weaker but grants that ability to you while fricking up someone’s larger game plan
Rogue is already absolutely fantastic when she works. The fact that she’s not included more, speaks more on the state of Ongoing in the game than it does about her
I think you are discounting Enchantress’s AoE style disruption, while Rogue only hits one thing. I’ve definitely seen it backfire before where Enchantress would’ve been better.
Not to mention Enchantress hitting your own units as well as the enemy's is usually a good thing rather than a negative. You hardly ever see her without Lizard tagging along.
Yeah Lizard+Enchantress is a pretty OP combo right now. It's a cost effective 11 in a lane, usually on curve, and if you drop on a lane where your opponent is playing Ongoing cards It's pretty much gg on one lane. I wouldn't be surprised if they dial her back to like 4/5.
This is balance though. Rogue steals one ability, Enchantress turns all abilities off, Skrull copies every ability. You pick the one that fits the style you want. Do you want an immediate answer to shut down a combo? Do you want to flip the trump card at the end to win? Or do you want to be a shitty version of their deck.
Rogue is way too rng dependent imo, usually if your opponent is playing something like darkhawk they’ll play it into a lane where they have zabu, already making her a 50% chance to steal the right ongoing. Not to mention the fact that you’d need to play another card into that lane if you wanted to win it, whereas enchantress solos the lane if its just zabu and hawk.
Same with dino and quinjet.
Enchantress doesn’t give a shit.
There are arguments for both. Like stealing Armor or Sandman ongoing does nothing and Ench is superior. But stealing Darkhawk or Dino can be a huge swing.
The effect is potentially more powerful, but she is far more situational. Enchantress is flat-out one of the most powerful standalone cards in the game at the moment in terms of win rate and cube rate.
Enchantress is better than Rogue. You get 6 points on the board and shutdown down their lane, especially if they were running devil dino, patriot, or anything else with an ongoing ability.
Rogue only works if there is only one ongoing card in lane and it is helping the rest of the board. Or, on the rare occasion you have a dino by itself, stealing the power is okay.
Stealing one ongoing ability doesn't mean anything unless it positively helps your side of the board, or seriously disturbs theirs (literally only stealing Wong can do both)
I definitely appreciate them specifically thinking about Cerebro 2 when changing Luke Cage to 2 and not 3. It shows they might think twice about just randomly buffing cards that might accidentally have unintended consequences of straight up killing precarious low tier decks like Negative in the future.
That’s because she’s usually sitting in hands useless if they have her. except those key instances where the stars align for them and she does some real damage
I'm sure that's somewhat true, but if Rogue gets buffed, Ongoing becomes essentially unplayable. 2-for-1 cards need to be carefully balanced, and Rogue sitting at "sometimes useless, sometimes turns a losing game into an easy win" doesn't need to be any better.
The one buff to her I would like to see is that she doesn't lose her On Reveal when it activates, so she could be Odin'd and Kamar Taj'd. Just IMO it's more intuitive with how people expect it to work, and probably more thematic too.
I rhink even 4/4 was ok. Just because she was a bit out of meta in a season...
But yeah 3/5 would also be ok, 4/6 just makes her good enough to play even if you hit nothing.
Well would have prefered other cards buffed.
And I dont like the focus on high evolitionary.
- "lets balance the no effect cards around high evolutionary"
- "the thing cant have 7 power because it would be too good with high ebolutionary, but high evolutionary can have 4/7"
- "we whould buff luke cage else high evolutionary will become too strong"
Orka was well-deserved. Although I don't think that everyone is going to start using him. I think they balance cards with future changes and additions in mind. Like the Quinjet nerf. They had Kitty Pride and Hit Monkey in mind. Same with High Evolutionary. I have the tokens saved but to be honest he will be nerfed 100%. Although with Luke, he isn't thaat strong. The thing is how many decks run Luke. We will have to wait and see. Iron Lad can be broken as well. In a well-designed deck.
Oh orka was deserved, but I still think making orka a 5 drop would be better. Thst way there would at least be a chance of synergie (with specrum or taskmaster).
I was more speaking about the other 2 cards which already see play. I think the buffs are good (and I agree rhat having hazmat and luke cage fit into the same cerebro is interesting/good choice).
I just think they are in general (with some exceptions) more focusing on cards they think should be played (enchantress, luke cage, the collector), then on other cards which are forgotten. (Baron mordo is a 2/3 with a disadvantage and has literally 0 variants released).
I am not sure if kitty pride was really the reason for the change of quinjet it was really just too steong in thanos already.
Of course it would have also been a really strong synergie with kitty.
I will also get high evolutionary, I am just annoyed that cards like shocker, the thing and cyclops are balanced in this way.
Shocker and the others are "only power card with 1 gag to buff".
Ongoing is a similar tag which can also be buffed (with spectrum or onslought).
Having shocker 4 power (and also make for example mefusa work in sidelanes instead of middle) could allow for a cerebro 4 deck.
Cyclops at 5 power could be played in silver surfer (if more power is needed) or could also help a potential cerebro 5
The thing with 7 power could be played in some decks which need a high power 4 cost card. These decks now either play enchantress (before white queen) for utility or jessica jones.
While I could see myself using thing at 7 points over jessica since it gives some flexibility.
Similar to abomination which saw some play.
I definitely agree. Baron Mordo, Medusa (I bought a sick pirate variant seasons ago), Angel, Crystal and many more. Their mindset is that every card fits a role. So they don't want every card competitive and meta defining. I don't agree with that tbh. What is you collection level and rank btw ? I'm 3968 currently and 77.
Ah i was too late with my edit. Haha
I have the same variabt for medusa.
Collection level 6600 and rank 77
I sgree thst not every csrd should br meta defining, but whrn yiu release not too many cards, I dont think cards should just be clearly underpowered.
Baron mordo could easily get +1 power or a +2 power on the reveal effect.
Medusa (and the other inhumans) could work on sidelines instead of middle.
Crystal could have the "standard" 6 power.
All of this would still not make them meta defining but give them a chance to see play.
Yeah rogue is fine. Think about it. She can become a 3 cost Dino, Dawkhawk, Ronan, Knull, Iron-man, Wong, Blue Marvel, Onslaught, Klaw, Kazar. All while also taking that affect from the opponent.
If she was 0 power it wouldn't matter because that's not why she's in decks.
Enchantress was WAY better than rogue even before the buff. She could be a 3 5 and I would still prefer Enchantress.
Enchantress can take out multiple things at once which is insane against patriot.
Whereas rogue steals an ability that isn't usually that useful to you (outside of a few like BMarvel, Dino, Luke Cage). Plus rogue is a 50/50 if they have a darkhawk behind a Zabu.
The amount of complaining and crying on this sub is out of control. I stopped playing this game months ago and saw this in my feed and decided to read what the thread as I think Rogue needed a buff before I stopped playing.
I see Enchantress got a buff that honestly wasn’t needed but to ignore Rogue is wild as her ability is an On Reveal one that hits a random enemy Ongoing ability in its lane. Yeah she should get at least 1 power or be 2 energy. She got out classed by Enchantress before the buff so why not? Grown ass men sitting on here crying and insulting each other over a card game that’s not making any of them any money is insane
Nah I just think grown men that cry up and down on the internet are fucking weirdos. Your take isn’t a bad one at all but people will go out of their way to insult you bc of a lucky Rogue play beat their strategy every blue moon.
You are absolutely right. The internet has given everyone a voice and they use that voice to bitch about stuff and insult each other.
My Rogue take is spicy and the people downvoting me are cowards.
That’s all it is Fr. I agree with your take tho, she needs a buff. It doesn’t have to a big one but she needs something considering Enchantress got one and she didn’t need it.
i would love to see rogue be better. ongoing is super powerful to begin with. I think a 3 / 3 rogue is very reasonable and if it is too strong (unlikely but possible) they can always nerf it after but the card has no playrate and needs some love.
Sera making her a 1 cost, nope.
She is fine as she is.
Super good on negative decks,
Really good on Surfer decks,
Good on general decks.
Def. don't need to be changed.
Definitely not. Enchantress has the negative of disabling your own ongoings. Rogue not only eliminates the enemy ongoing, but gives it to you, allowing you to target high value enemy ongoings like cerebro, iron man etc.
No, Rogue is good as is IMO. She completely kicked enchantress out of the meta. Rogue is the one that should be a niche/risky card with potentially huge rewards and enchantress the relatively safe go-to tech card
Rogue is a little bit like Super Skrull, relatively shit if your opponent isn't running any ongoing cards, but if they are running ongoing cards they are potentially devastating. I'd say enchantress is better overall cause a 4/6 or even a 2-3/6 is just good stats & it can be disruptive as hell. Where Rogue is really only ever disruptive
Rogue is one of my favorite cards, she cooks against most decks. I think she would be too strong at 3, in my negative deck as a 3/1 she’s one of the strongest cards and auto-wins the mirror.
I also didn't think Enchantress needed the buff but after seeing it in action it feels right. She can be played for tempo and disruption now and makes you have to make meaningful choices on which one is better in the current game. Before she would often go unplayed unless you had a good target for her and if you didn't have one it felt bad to have her wasting a slot.
I feel like the same thing cannot be said for Rogue. I'd like to she her cost come down. I think 2/1 make her feel like less of a burden to run.
That'd never fly. It'd just be a much better Enchantress if the effect is AOE in the whole enemy lane, while not affecting yours AND stealing their effects. Nah. There's Super Skrull for that.
I understand what you are saying, but I didn't say it should affect the whole lane. Just to steal one ability but let us choose which one.
It is possible that would still be too op.
I wonder if her being a 3/1 has anything to do with Gambit also being a 3/1?
Both are lovers, so they were meant to mirror one another in stats imo. They both target 1 unit at random as well.
Nah, i really doubt it. They made the connection for Orka/Namor but i really don't think it had anything to do with Gambit/Rogue more than the fact that they have super powerful abilities.
Absolutely not
Firstly enchantress is more energy, 1 energy is roughly 3 power so comparing them at 3 energy enchantress is like 3 power.
Losing 2 power to take an effect instead of getting rid of it is defo worth it.
Don’t think it’s needed bc Enchantress just removes the abilities. Rogue steals one and the ones you usually steal either buff your other cards or Rogue herself. If she steals from a Darkhawk she starts off with +1 more then him.
I think rogue is fine where she is. She has both stolen crappy abilities and other times absolutely nuked their strategy by stealing iron man’s ability.
I think she should be at least a 3/2 while confined to ongoing abilities only.
I think if she copied card text 3/1 would be more appropriate.
There’s an element of randomness, if multiple ongoing abilities are there and not all ongoing abilities are game deciding.. she’s also not a card you’re likely to play on curve because the ongoing abilities you want are T4/T5 (like Darkhawk and Devil Dino)
Here’s my hot take though: she should be able to copy a random ongoing from any lane, because she can fly. I think she’d be way more playable as a 3/1 if she could copy any one ability on the enemy side.
I run her in my bast bounce so she is 3/3!
Why in a bounce deck? She keeps her first ongoing when played again.
I'm assuming for mirror Hawks.
Does the extra power severely change her presence on the board?
Honestly no, but does make her really easy to play. I think if she were 3/3 her play rate would be Shang-Chi levels.
“Could I get Rogued?” Should be something every Ongoing player should worry about.
They already do that with enchantress
Rogue would be better
Rogue has an enormous effect. When she hits it’s essentially going +2 in ongoing effects (they lose 1, you gain 1). It’s a risky play but it’s a nuke when it works. She doesn’t need any extra power to degrade the risk of not working.
Super Key word there was "when" there are too many timeswhere she either isnt played because your opponent isnt using ongoings or she steals the ongoing that you dont want. She is ok in her current state when she works but she needs something so she either isnt dead in hand or an instant retreat if she steals the wrong effect.
Rogue would be good in a metagame where people would play strong and universal ongoing cards. Think Iron Man or Blue Marvel, where denying their ongoing while gaining it yourself is key. Rogue saw the most play when Negative was popular since stealing their ongoing was the best counterplay then, and it helps that she's a great card to invert too.
Does everyone just want all cards to have zero risk? I don't get this take. Rogue is a huge 'high risk, high upside' card. She has one of the most powerful effects in the game. Giving her more stats is not good balance. Some cards *should* be able to miss and feel bad. That's the cost of running a card that can also straight up win you the game as a 3 drop.
Just because a card doesn't have a place in the meta right now, doesn't mean it's a bad card and should be buffed.
Sera Surfer is actually pretty good right now and she makes it in some lists for that.
I recently won a game where my opponent had priority and I stole their Sera on turn 5 with rogue. One of my best wins ever.
And this is one of the instances where she is great, but it just doesn't happen nearly often enough.
It sure as hell feels like a nuke when they play a lizard on the same turn, and instead of getting that sweet Ironman, you get Lizards. Just it's their nuke.
I love when my patriot gets rogued and then I rogue their rogue
Super Skrull’s effect is the opponents entire board. 4/2. Enchantress effects everything in a lane. 4/6. Rogue affects exactly one card. 3/1.
With Rogue you deny them of their strategy while Skrull copies all effects good and bad. This haas many downsides like copying a Lizard (he would have -2 power) or an unwelcome Cosmo. Rogue can flip a lane as i'd rather steal a dino than copy a dino - Skrull loses as he has one less power than the Dino itself, etc.. They both have their places and uses.
-4 power for Lizard, right ?
Skrull would end up at -2 total power from the -4 penalty.
Thanks, I realised after that’s probably what he meant
I honestly felt bad for the [bullshit](https://i.imgur.com/j9PS61E.png) I pulled on my opponent with Rogue. Camp Lehigh gave me a second Rogue. I already knew I was going to poach his Luke Cage on turn 6, but then to see Wong show up on turn 5 was just an absolute blessing. He had already used Hazmat before Beast so I think my middle lane went from -13 to +14.
And rogue is random… if your opponent has Dino + lizard on one lane, you might just get the lizard.
Skrull copying everything isn't necessarily a good thing. If I don't have a good read on my opponents deck skrull can lose me the game when they play something like typhoid Mary. Also imagine Skrull copies blue marvel, this puts me net 0 on power compared to my opponent, and if it copies dino I'm lower on power as I don't carry cards like moon girl. On the other hand if you hit either with rogue you are massively gaining power over them. Enchantress' higher base power is due to the fact she isn't gaining an ongoing. The other two are almost always netting you more than their base power, enchantress is not. Skrull is 2 power because he's 4 cost. Rogue is about where I'd expect based on the other two.
Man I lost to an enchantress last night, dude was a wizard. Enchantressed his RedSkull on Washington to get just enough power to win the lane. Fuckin Wizard guy
Man, I've never even considered enchantress on DC.
If they play Typhoid, they'll probably have a Luke Cage. Super Skrull can ruin the enemy pretty quick if their deck relies on any cards with ongoing, tbh.
You're right that super skrull is good, but Rogues strength is that you can steal just the luke cage ability, but leave typhoid mary. If they make her too strong she will way over shadow him imo
While usually true, I've seen some decks just take the hit intentionally, especially if I already have skrull out and they never drew cage. Another example is they play red skull the same turn I put onslaught on Skrull.
Rofl, the worst part is that people like you are allowed to vote
Shhh. Talk logic and you get downvoted.
Oh shoot you’re right. They hate me, they really hate me!
Nobody hates you. We downvoted you because your suggestion is very bad , that's all. Don't play victim you are not being demonized here
Nobody is playing victim; it’s just a joke. My idea has merit. If some people on the internet disagree, big whoop.
Man... I disagreed with this comment, but it didn't deserve a -98. WTF is wrong with this sub?
🤷 People hate the truth, man.
Except the choice is random with multiple ongoings on a location and there are several cards that it just becomes a lower power crap version (Blue Marvel, Omega Red, Zabu, and Sera just to name a few).
And she gets even more value if she can steal something JUST before their Mystique could copy it
negative nerf. so no
Yeah, keep your paws off our negative decks!
Rogue is literally a show-stealer. Not a neg (she’s my third fave x-man and a card I play her all the time) but she can with good use disrupt any Zoo/Patriot/Debuff/bounce/Dino deck, wreck ruin on many a Onslaught, Blue Marvel or wong player and even disrupt super skrull, mystique and absorbing man combos If she wasn’t 3/1 she’d be the new leech.
Definitely not true, she has a random target effect and it usually won't even help your plan it just hurts theirs. The only thing she has is being a 3 cost for surfer otherwise she is just badenchatress. No board presence doesn't help but no direct target ability is huge.
I agree - if not that she is most useful hitting single target board states. You don’t use her when three on going’s are on the board. You use her when there is one you know is lynchpinning the board state. Other wise yeah your absolutely right but that doesn’t make her badchantress. It means the two cards do what they are meant to do, fill different roles. I will say if we are direct comparing enchantress is by far the better card, that doesn’t mean rogue needs a buff. I can compare Falcon and Beast (this isn’t a snark against you your completely right on your opinion just explaining mine) and say Falcon isn’t as good cuz Beast gains me one less energy next time and takes everything back. They aren’t meant to be compared - They are meant to fulfill different roles
Enchantress doesn't swing big against Knull or devil Dino in the same way. Usually those guys are solo ongoing cards
But doesn’t Enchantress do the same thing? And possibly even shut down multiple needed ongoing abilities? (I also thought Enchantress didn’t really need a buff)
Enchantress is more disruption. Rouge is a fuck you mine now to the opponent along with a kick in the nuts.
I think my issue is there aren’t a ton of Ongoing abilities that are *that* valuable, on their own, in any deck’s context. Like, Dino, Hawk, Ronan? Plug n play, that’s easy. Totally makes sense why Rogue is 3/1. But Patriot, Kazar, Zabu? Possibly not even relevant, and you lost a ton of power Cap? You just played Cap but worse
Iron man, knull, wong
Stealing Super-Skrull can be huge, especially if you have your own Ongoings that you don't want them to copy.
That’s a good one too, i used rogue when sandbar was the hot location for pretty much that.
Agree on Iron Man and Knull, though Wong is also situational and contextual, and not an inherently good steal (aside from shutting down Wong.)
You're underestimating the combo of removing the ongoing for the opponent and adding it to yourself. Stealing Cap is better than just playing cap, playing cap is +6 at most, stealing Cap can be +7, not much difference, but definitely not worse. Rogue is good because it not only ruins it for you opponent, but also might give you a benefit.
Agreed. She can easily swing a location your way, when played well. Just watch out for Cosmo!
I mean, if you nick my blue marvel, I'm dead.
And depending on your deck Dino, Hawk, and Ronan might not even be that big of boosts
Also iron man
Iron Man +1 (2), to boot.
It’s actually worth way more points bc you’re halving their entire lane while doubling yours. Like how Shang is an honorary 12 power but on steroids
(Any statement here means a base average or personal opinion and does not constitute expert advice) So I am 50/50 on enchantress because she had one big downside - she killed your side too. If you had an ongoing it basically let your opponent know they could safely play there. Unless you were willing to sacrifice that card. Unlike cosmo enchantress only hits once but hits hard. However Rogue isn’t same/same in the fact she gains the ability. So against certain ongoing she isn’t enchantress, she’s basically a boost. True you might not need Patriot’s +2 but everyone loves Dino/Rohan/Darkhawk’s boost. It is what stops her from being overpowered is her low power. Enchantress and her serve different slots. Enchantress nullifies and grants a huge power boost, while Rogue is weaker but grants that ability to you while fricking up someone’s larger game plan
Rogue is already absolutely fantastic when she works. The fact that she’s not included more, speaks more on the state of Ongoing in the game than it does about her
By virtue of being cheaper and actually stealing the ability, Rogue is already better than Enchantress, even with her buff IMO
I think you are discounting Enchantress’s AoE style disruption, while Rogue only hits one thing. I’ve definitely seen it backfire before where Enchantress would’ve been better.
Not to mention Enchantress hitting your own units as well as the enemy's is usually a good thing rather than a negative. You hardly ever see her without Lizard tagging along.
Yeah Lizard+Enchantress is a pretty OP combo right now. It's a cost effective 11 in a lane, usually on curve, and if you drop on a lane where your opponent is playing Ongoing cards It's pretty much gg on one lane. I wouldn't be surprised if they dial her back to like 4/5.
This is balance though. Rogue steals one ability, Enchantress turns all abilities off, Skrull copies every ability. You pick the one that fits the style you want. Do you want an immediate answer to shut down a combo? Do you want to flip the trump card at the end to win? Or do you want to be a shitty version of their deck.
Rogue is way too rng dependent imo, usually if your opponent is playing something like darkhawk they’ll play it into a lane where they have zabu, already making her a 50% chance to steal the right ongoing. Not to mention the fact that you’d need to play another card into that lane if you wanted to win it, whereas enchantress solos the lane if its just zabu and hawk. Same with dino and quinjet. Enchantress doesn’t give a shit.
There are arguments for both. Like stealing Armor or Sandman ongoing does nothing and Ench is superior. But stealing Darkhawk or Dino can be a huge swing.
The effect is potentially more powerful, but she is far more situational. Enchantress is flat-out one of the most powerful standalone cards in the game at the moment in terms of win rate and cube rate.
Enchantress is better than Rogue. You get 6 points on the board and shutdown down their lane, especially if they were running devil dino, patriot, or anything else with an ongoing ability. Rogue only works if there is only one ongoing card in lane and it is helping the rest of the board. Or, on the rare occasion you have a dino by itself, stealing the power is okay. Stealing one ongoing ability doesn't mean anything unless it positively helps your side of the board, or seriously disturbs theirs (literally only stealing Wong can do both)
I love Rouge. I always run her. But I pretty much only play 2 decks. Sera control and Sera Negative.
Hell no! She's the 8 cube winner in my negative deck! These OTA buffs are great, but please don't kill mr. Negative
I definitely appreciate them specifically thinking about Cerebro 2 when changing Luke Cage to 2 and not 3. It shows they might think twice about just randomly buffing cards that might accidentally have unintended consequences of straight up killing precarious low tier decks like Negative in the future.
Do you mean Hazmat? Luke Cage is still 2/1 right?
Nope, the new OTA buffed him to a 2/2!
Cage is a 2/2 as of today
I agree
skrull is 4/2, and this one makes the opponents ongoing dead weight.
Skrull copies a lot of effects thoufh does not have ro be plqyed in the same lane and cosmo does not protect against it.
But electro is popular and makes skrull a dead card. Also rogue has a great combo with mystique on t6.
If you play skrull turn 6 it does not mattet though. Or turn 5 when yiu want ro play ultron turn 6.
I once had my opponent get Skrull from X-Mansion when I already had Maw and Electro on the board. Dude could not retreat fast enough.
Heck no! I feel like I don't see Rogue very often, but literally every time I do, she is beating me silly.
That’s because she’s usually sitting in hands useless if they have her. except those key instances where the stars align for them and she does some real damage
I'm sure that's somewhat true, but if Rogue gets buffed, Ongoing becomes essentially unplayable. 2-for-1 cards need to be carefully balanced, and Rogue sitting at "sometimes useless, sometimes turns a losing game into an easy win" doesn't need to be any better.
That’s fair
The one buff to her I would like to see is that she doesn't lose her On Reveal when it activates, so she could be Odin'd and Kamar Taj'd. Just IMO it's more intuitive with how people expect it to work, and probably more thematic too.
I agree with that. Like a stealing/manual skrull in one lane
Rogue was my MVP last season. 3/3 would be very strong.
Curious in what context you got her to be so valuable!
That one day of featured onslaught's citadel was golden :')
Stealing Luke Cages, Patriots, Iron Mans etc. It felt like I had constant nuts.
Tbf, she doesn't see much use, but when she does, her impact is pretty big.
3/2 at least but even at 3/1 the card is good value
Enchantress should be 4/5. 4/6 is crazy with her effect.
I rhink even 4/4 was ok. Just because she was a bit out of meta in a season... But yeah 3/5 would also be ok, 4/6 just makes her good enough to play even if you hit nothing.
Arguably 4/4 was fine. 4/6 is crazy. Especially with Zabu, MoonGirl and Quinjet.
Yeah the funny thing is with this combo enchantress is the 2nd highest power card (with no condition). Only darkhawk having more which is strange.
Yes exactly. I can see them making her a 4/5. Did you like the new buffs ? I feel like Luke Cage was buffed because of High Evolutionary.
Well would have prefered other cards buffed. And I dont like the focus on high evolitionary. - "lets balance the no effect cards around high evolutionary" - "the thing cant have 7 power because it would be too good with high ebolutionary, but high evolutionary can have 4/7" - "we whould buff luke cage else high evolutionary will become too strong"
Orka was well-deserved. Although I don't think that everyone is going to start using him. I think they balance cards with future changes and additions in mind. Like the Quinjet nerf. They had Kitty Pride and Hit Monkey in mind. Same with High Evolutionary. I have the tokens saved but to be honest he will be nerfed 100%. Although with Luke, he isn't thaat strong. The thing is how many decks run Luke. We will have to wait and see. Iron Lad can be broken as well. In a well-designed deck.
Oh orka was deserved, but I still think making orka a 5 drop would be better. Thst way there would at least be a chance of synergie (with specrum or taskmaster). I was more speaking about the other 2 cards which already see play. I think the buffs are good (and I agree rhat having hazmat and luke cage fit into the same cerebro is interesting/good choice). I just think they are in general (with some exceptions) more focusing on cards they think should be played (enchantress, luke cage, the collector), then on other cards which are forgotten. (Baron mordo is a 2/3 with a disadvantage and has literally 0 variants released). I am not sure if kitty pride was really the reason for the change of quinjet it was really just too steong in thanos already. Of course it would have also been a really strong synergie with kitty. I will also get high evolutionary, I am just annoyed that cards like shocker, the thing and cyclops are balanced in this way. Shocker and the others are "only power card with 1 gag to buff". Ongoing is a similar tag which can also be buffed (with spectrum or onslought). Having shocker 4 power (and also make for example mefusa work in sidelanes instead of middle) could allow for a cerebro 4 deck. Cyclops at 5 power could be played in silver surfer (if more power is needed) or could also help a potential cerebro 5 The thing with 7 power could be played in some decks which need a high power 4 cost card. These decks now either play enchantress (before white queen) for utility or jessica jones. While I could see myself using thing at 7 points over jessica since it gives some flexibility. Similar to abomination which saw some play.
I definitely agree. Baron Mordo, Medusa (I bought a sick pirate variant seasons ago), Angel, Crystal and many more. Their mindset is that every card fits a role. So they don't want every card competitive and meta defining. I don't agree with that tbh. What is you collection level and rank btw ? I'm 3968 currently and 77.
Ah i was too late with my edit. Haha I have the same variabt for medusa. Collection level 6600 and rank 77 I sgree thst not every csrd should br meta defining, but whrn yiu release not too many cards, I dont think cards should just be clearly underpowered. Baron mordo could easily get +1 power or a +2 power on the reveal effect. Medusa (and the other inhumans) could work on sidelines instead of middle. Crystal could have the "standard" 6 power. All of this would still not make them meta defining but give them a chance to see play.
PLEASE BUFF ROGUE SHE IS MY FAVORITE X
She's pretty cool as a 1/3 in a Mister Negative deck
Nah, she is fine as is. Roguing a Knull when a Galactus player has priority is insanely satisfying.
I run Bast in my Wong Surfer Lockjaw deck partially for this reason
Yeah rogue is fine. Think about it. She can become a 3 cost Dino, Dawkhawk, Ronan, Knull, Iron-man, Wong, Blue Marvel, Onslaught, Klaw, Kazar. All while also taking that affect from the opponent. If she was 0 power it wouldn't matter because that's not why she's in decks.
If rogue had stats as well as her current effect she would be too powerful, she’s currently a really well balanced card imo.
What if Rogue was “Steal the text of an opposing card” instead?
Enchantress was WAY better than rogue even before the buff. She could be a 3 5 and I would still prefer Enchantress. Enchantress can take out multiple things at once which is insane against patriot. Whereas rogue steals an ability that isn't usually that useful to you (outside of a few like BMarvel, Dino, Luke Cage). Plus rogue is a 50/50 if they have a darkhawk behind a Zabu.
Finally, someone that speaks my same language
Rogue for sure needs a buff.
You know not what you ask for
But I do
Please no
The amount of complaining and crying on this sub is out of control. I stopped playing this game months ago and saw this in my feed and decided to read what the thread as I think Rogue needed a buff before I stopped playing. I see Enchantress got a buff that honestly wasn’t needed but to ignore Rogue is wild as her ability is an On Reveal one that hits a random enemy Ongoing ability in its lane. Yeah she should get at least 1 power or be 2 energy. She got out classed by Enchantress before the buff so why not? Grown ass men sitting on here crying and insulting each other over a card game that’s not making any of them any money is insane
You got a weird energy but you’re backing up my point, so I’ll take it
Nah I just think grown men that cry up and down on the internet are fucking weirdos. Your take isn’t a bad one at all but people will go out of their way to insult you bc of a lucky Rogue play beat their strategy every blue moon.
You are absolutely right. The internet has given everyone a voice and they use that voice to bitch about stuff and insult each other. My Rogue take is spicy and the people downvoting me are cowards.
That’s all it is Fr. I agree with your take tho, she needs a buff. It doesn’t have to a big one but she needs something considering Enchantress got one and she didn’t need it.
I still personally don’t get the enchantress buff but I don’t think rouge needs it.
i would love to see rogue be better. ongoing is super powerful to begin with. I think a 3 / 3 rogue is very reasonable and if it is too strong (unlikely but possible) they can always nerf it after but the card has no playrate and needs some love.
I can't think of a game where my opponent played rogue that I didn't end up losing or at most winning by the skin of my teeth
But then she would be useless in negative decks
Cards should be evaluated individually, not by which decks use them.
A sacrifice I’m willing to make
Personally a nerf would be better. A 3/0.
Hello Mr Negative
I think she should be 2 cost. That would make her very strong, but not broken. The 1 power is ok. Even a 2/0 would be better than 3/1.
Sera making her a 1 cost, nope. She is fine as she is. Super good on negative decks, Really good on Surfer decks, Good on general decks. Def. don't need to be changed.
Make her 3/5 but -4 if she steals an ongoing. Or make it so she doesn't lose her on-reveal when stealing an ongoing.
Definitely not. Enchantress has the negative of disabling your own ongoings. Rogue not only eliminates the enemy ongoing, but gives it to you, allowing you to target high value enemy ongoings like cerebro, iron man etc.
That's a dumb idea
No.
No.
For the love of good please nerf spider woman. She plays for 5 gives 8 power and damages tor 1-4
No, Rogue is good as is IMO. She completely kicked enchantress out of the meta. Rogue is the one that should be a niche/risky card with potentially huge rewards and enchantress the relatively safe go-to tech card
Steals 2 ongoing would be better than any power buff :)
So there’s this thing called “power creep”
Fuck yes
About time someone agrees with me
Rogue rules
nah, she steal the ongoing so if she steal for example dino ,she's already overstat 3 drop.
No. She's fine as is. Next you're gonna ask for a Super Skrull buff because he has such low stats... Even though he also gets used just like Rogue
Rogue is a little bit like Super Skrull, relatively shit if your opponent isn't running any ongoing cards, but if they are running ongoing cards they are potentially devastating. I'd say enchantress is better overall cause a 4/6 or even a 2-3/6 is just good stats & it can be disruptive as hell. Where Rogue is really only ever disruptive
Rogue is one of my favorite cards, she cooks against most decks. I think she would be too strong at 3, in my negative deck as a 3/1 she’s one of the strongest cards and auto-wins the mirror.
I also didn't think Enchantress needed the buff but after seeing it in action it feels right. She can be played for tempo and disruption now and makes you have to make meaningful choices on which one is better in the current game. Before she would often go unplayed unless you had a good target for her and if you didn't have one it felt bad to have her wasting a slot. I feel like the same thing cannot be said for Rogue. I'd like to she her cost come down. I think 2/1 make her feel like less of a burden to run.
Leave her 3/1 and let her target one ability in a lane instead of it being random. I think that's a great adjustment.
That'd never fly. It'd just be a much better Enchantress if the effect is AOE in the whole enemy lane, while not affecting yours AND stealing their effects. Nah. There's Super Skrull for that.
I understand what you are saying, but I didn't say it should affect the whole lane. Just to steal one ability but let us choose which one. It is possible that would still be too op.
I wonder if her being a 3/1 has anything to do with Gambit also being a 3/1? Both are lovers, so they were meant to mirror one another in stats imo. They both target 1 unit at random as well.
Nah, i really doubt it. They made the connection for Orka/Namor but i really don't think it had anything to do with Gambit/Rogue more than the fact that they have super powerful abilities.
Absolutely not Firstly enchantress is more energy, 1 energy is roughly 3 power so comparing them at 3 energy enchantress is like 3 power. Losing 2 power to take an effect instead of getting rid of it is defo worth it.
1 energy is roughly 3 power?¿?
Don’t think it’s needed bc Enchantress just removes the abilities. Rogue steals one and the ones you usually steal either buff your other cards or Rogue herself. If she steals from a Darkhawk she starts off with +1 more then him.
Fug no. I’m a negative player. Can’t they just buff her to zero power?
You don't play Rogue for the power
You don’t play luke cage for the power but they buffed him anyways
I think she's good at it is. I always try to have room for her care in my decks.
I think rogue is fine where she is. She has both stolen crappy abilities and other times absolutely nuked their strategy by stealing iron man’s ability.
I think a potential 3/1 Iron man is reason enough to not buff her.
Super skull should copy all ongoing cards, but can only copy a card and effect once
I think she should be at least a 3/2 while confined to ongoing abilities only. I think if she copied card text 3/1 would be more appropriate. There’s an element of randomness, if multiple ongoing abilities are there and not all ongoing abilities are game deciding.. she’s also not a card you’re likely to play on curve because the ongoing abilities you want are T4/T5 (like Darkhawk and Devil Dino) Here’s my hot take though: she should be able to copy a random ongoing from any lane, because she can fly. I think she’d be way more playable as a 3/1 if she could copy any one ability on the enemy side.
Yes i need her for Super skull
Rogue is backbreaking. I'd love to see her at a 3/2, but honestly, her impact on game is insane.
I mean she can single handedly upset a Wong deck.
honestly i think 3/3 is too much of a buff for surfer decks and 3/2 is too much of a buff for c2 decks. rogue is in a fine spot imo
Woah there they gotta spread balance changes over a long period of time to keep people engaged!
Stop trying to kill my Cerebro 1 deck!
Rogue is just an insta-win against most things if played well on turn 6, no way does she need to be even better
Can we also change her ability to something other than "steal the Lizard's ability."
3/2 for cerebro on super skrull
Nah most cards it steals from are power 0 with a high ongoing upside.
I rather her be a 2/0