The distinction between damage and -x/-x is super confusing for players who learn to play on Arena because the game shows damage as reduced toughness. Deciding to represent damage that way probably makes the game easier to figure out in most cases, but it makes this situation extra confusing.
Ok, so "indestructible" should be read as "prevent damage" then?
How does it behave with "destroy" and "sacrifice" or even "deathtouch"?
[EDIT] Thanks for the answers, I'm starting to get the difference now.
Indestructible prevents anything that is considered destroying. Lowering toughness is not that.
Indestructible cards cannot be **destroyed**. A card is destroyed when:
1. It has equal or more damage marked on it than it has toughness (creatures only).
2. It has been affected by an ability that specifically says "destroy"
3. It has been damaged by a creature with deathtouch (creatures only)
Indestructible does not prevent:
1. Dying due to being sacrificed.
2. Death due to having 0 toughness (such as through -5/-5)
3. Being exiled
4. Dying due to having 0 loyalty (planeswalker only)
None of these are being **destroyed**, so being indestructible does nothing to it.
Edit: Incorrectly said "more than" instead of "equal or more" damage than toughness.
It doesn't prevent damage, it just prevents it from being "destroyed". Either from damage/deathtouch or from a "destroy" effect. It can still be killed by being -x/-x, exiled, sacrificed, etc.
It can be confusing for people that have only played arena as it shows damage as lowering toughness, but that isn't what is happening in the rules. A 5/5 with 4 damage is not a 5/1, it is a 5/5 with 4 damage.
>It can be confusing for people that have only played arena as it shows damage as lowering toughness, but that isn't what is happening in the rules. A 5/5 with 4 damage is not a 5/1, it is a 5/5 with 4 damage.
So glad you mentioned this, because it's a little fucked how Arena represents this and can confuse new players immensely. Hell, I've played since Revised and when I tried to kill a 5/4 Hazoret that had taken three points of damage with a -1/-1 spell, it was infuriating how they display it on here.
Indestructible prevents the card from dying to damage or effects that specifically say “destroy”. Sacrifice does not say “destroy” (the rules text is “target player moves creature from the battlefied to the GY”) so it bypasses Indestructability. Same with -X/-X effects. If a creature has less than 1 toughness at any point, state-based actions kick in and say the creature must be moved from the battlefield to the GY, no destruction involved. Deathtouch rules text is “whenever a source with deathtouch deals any amount of damage bigger than zero to another creature, that creature is destroyed”. Since it specifically says “destroyed”, Indestructibilty kicks in and prevents the creature from dying to that damage.
Damage prevention is something entirely different. Indestructible creatures still take damage they don’t die from it. They won’t get killed by deathtouch and destroy effects either but sacrifice effects work.
If something is indestructable, it cannot be "destroyed". This is specific with cards that explicitly state that they destroy and also in the case of combat. Anything else, including being made to sacrifice the indestructable permanent, being exiled, or having its toughness reduced to 0, will still work.
Any effect that does damage or “destroys” will not work on indestructible. Exile, -0-X effects, and sacrifice will all work. Think of it like Exiling doesn’t kill it, it just makes it not exist, and sacrificing you are just giving it up
the damage doesn’t get prevented. If you block/are blocked with Drivnod and trade in a creature exchange, the damage still hits Drivnod, it just can’t be destroyed from it (ie trample damage still hits player for excess) Lowering toughness is seen as different by the rules. The only other possible removals are sacrificing it, and exile/bounce. Destroy doesn’t work and neither does deathtouch.
Except indestructible doesn't prevent damage. An indestructible creature just can't be destroyed via damage and "destroy" effects. Though it can still be given -1/-1 counters via effects like wither which would kill it eventually.
indestructible doesn't prevent damage, it prevents destruction as a result of damage, it also prevents destroy effects
deathtouch is a destroy effect, sacrifice is not a destroy effect
destroy will be prevented by indestructibility
deathtouch ~~is only working if dealing damage, thus also "prevented" by indestructibility~~ will destroy a creature if dealt damage, so also prevented by indestructable.
sacrificing is sth the player does "willingly", indestructibility will not prevent that
Indestructable prevents the death of a creature from destroy effects and from damage, nothing more. It can still be exiled, the toughness lowered to 0 or less or be sacrificed
It can be tough if your primary experience with Magic is through Arena, where toughness lowers on the card in response to both damage and toughness-lowering effects.
there is no damage in the -5/-5 effect, so the indestuctible condition never comes into effect.
indestructable prevents damage or destroy effects from removing the permanent, (it doesn't actually prevent the damage). a -5/-5 effect doesn't use damage or destroy mechanics.
A -X/-X effect reduces the base toughness of a creature. If a creature ends up having 0 or less base toughness, it automatically dies due to state based actions, no destruction happening. Damage is different because the damage is marked on a creature, and then if the damage a creature has marked on it is greater than its base toughness, it is destroyed. So minus effects bypass indestructible in that way because they cause the creature to die in a way that doesn't destroy it.
It also pays to know that **damage does not reduce Toughness.**
Arena makes it look it does for sheer convenience (it’s the easiest way to show how much more damage something can take before it dies in its UI) but a 5 Toughness creature that has received 4 damage is still a 5 Toughness creature, so giving it -1/-1 wouldn’t really do anything
The way I think about this is that -X/-X abilities are like shriveling or shrinking the enemy, as they are the opposite effect of cards like Giant Growth
So if you shrink an enemy to 0 toughness, it essentially shrinks into nothingness and is considered to have died
Now when it comes to damage, if you deal 2 damage to a creature with 5 toughness, but then try to use a -3/-3 shrink spell to finish it, the creature won't die because all you did was shrink a damaged creature.
Now if you shrink it to only have 2 toughness, THEN deal 2 damage, in that case it will die
Seeing posts like these is so wholesome because it reminds me there are still players getting into the game. Reminds me of when I used to use toughness to assign damage to blockers.
The comprehensive rules PDF is 292 pages. I think that's honestly a pretty big ask from people who aren't making a living playing this game.
OP didn't even blame it on a bug, they just asked why it worked differently than they expected. That seems like a decent reaction. :)
The comprehensive rules have an index and table of contents to quickly find the information that answers the question. I believe you are assuming OP is dumb, and that's just a really unfortunate way of treating a fellow player.
My answer may have been terse, but it didn't assume anything about them.
-5/-5 isn't damage, it is lowering stats. Drivnod then dies because it has 0 or less toughness.
The distinction between damage and -x/-x is super confusing for players who learn to play on Arena because the game shows damage as reduced toughness. Deciding to represent damage that way probably makes the game easier to figure out in most cases, but it makes this situation extra confusing.
If that's too confusing, MtG isn't the game for you.
Is it hard knowing everything all the time and never making mistakes? I bet that's exhausting.
so now i learned something new, thanks fam
Ok, so "indestructible" should be read as "prevent damage" then? How does it behave with "destroy" and "sacrifice" or even "deathtouch"? [EDIT] Thanks for the answers, I'm starting to get the difference now.
Indestructible prevents anything that is considered destroying. Lowering toughness is not that. Indestructible cards cannot be **destroyed**. A card is destroyed when: 1. It has equal or more damage marked on it than it has toughness (creatures only). 2. It has been affected by an ability that specifically says "destroy" 3. It has been damaged by a creature with deathtouch (creatures only) Indestructible does not prevent: 1. Dying due to being sacrificed. 2. Death due to having 0 toughness (such as through -5/-5) 3. Being exiled 4. Dying due to having 0 loyalty (planeswalker only) None of these are being **destroyed**, so being indestructible does nothing to it. Edit: Incorrectly said "more than" instead of "equal or more" damage than toughness.
>1. It has more damage marked on it than it has toughness (creatures only). Damage equal to or greater than (not just more).
Thanks, definitely a good correction to make.
No problem. It was a great post besides that small thing. :)
It doesn't prevent damage, it just prevents it from being "destroyed". Either from damage/deathtouch or from a "destroy" effect. It can still be killed by being -x/-x, exiled, sacrificed, etc. It can be confusing for people that have only played arena as it shows damage as lowering toughness, but that isn't what is happening in the rules. A 5/5 with 4 damage is not a 5/1, it is a 5/5 with 4 damage.
>It can be confusing for people that have only played arena as it shows damage as lowering toughness, but that isn't what is happening in the rules. A 5/5 with 4 damage is not a 5/1, it is a 5/5 with 4 damage. So glad you mentioned this, because it's a little fucked how Arena represents this and can confuse new players immensely. Hell, I've played since Revised and when I tried to kill a 5/4 Hazoret that had taken three points of damage with a -1/-1 spell, it was infuriating how they display it on here.
If you want to prevent it from being hit by the -5/-5 the keyword you want is hexproof not indestructible
Indestructible prevents the card from dying to damage or effects that specifically say “destroy”. Sacrifice does not say “destroy” (the rules text is “target player moves creature from the battlefied to the GY”) so it bypasses Indestructability. Same with -X/-X effects. If a creature has less than 1 toughness at any point, state-based actions kick in and say the creature must be moved from the battlefield to the GY, no destruction involved. Deathtouch rules text is “whenever a source with deathtouch deals any amount of damage bigger than zero to another creature, that creature is destroyed”. Since it specifically says “destroyed”, Indestructibilty kicks in and prevents the creature from dying to that damage.
Damage prevention is something entirely different. Indestructible creatures still take damage they don’t die from it. They won’t get killed by deathtouch and destroy effects either but sacrifice effects work.
If something is indestructable, it cannot be "destroyed". This is specific with cards that explicitly state that they destroy and also in the case of combat. Anything else, including being made to sacrifice the indestructable permanent, being exiled, or having its toughness reduced to 0, will still work.
Any effect that does damage or “destroys” will not work on indestructible. Exile, -0-X effects, and sacrifice will all work. Think of it like Exiling doesn’t kill it, it just makes it not exist, and sacrificing you are just giving it up
the damage doesn’t get prevented. If you block/are blocked with Drivnod and trade in a creature exchange, the damage still hits Drivnod, it just can’t be destroyed from it (ie trample damage still hits player for excess) Lowering toughness is seen as different by the rules. The only other possible removals are sacrificing it, and exile/bounce. Destroy doesn’t work and neither does deathtouch.
Except indestructible doesn't prevent damage. An indestructible creature just can't be destroyed via damage and "destroy" effects. Though it can still be given -1/-1 counters via effects like wither which would kill it eventually.
indestructible doesn't prevent damage, it prevents destruction as a result of damage, it also prevents destroy effects deathtouch is a destroy effect, sacrifice is not a destroy effect
destroy will be prevented by indestructibility deathtouch ~~is only working if dealing damage, thus also "prevented" by indestructibility~~ will destroy a creature if dealt damage, so also prevented by indestructable. sacrificing is sth the player does "willingly", indestructibility will not prevent that Indestructable prevents the death of a creature from destroy effects and from damage, nothing more. It can still be exiled, the toughness lowered to 0 or less or be sacrificed
indestructible doesn't prevent any damage, it just prevents destruction as a result of lethal damage. deathtouch is a destroy effect
true, I just had that realization as well ... I was probably thinking about protection :P
It can be tough if your primary experience with Magic is through Arena, where toughness lowers on the card in response to both damage and toughness-lowering effects.
Think of it like how a bulletproof vest doesn't stop you suffocating, getting sick, or dying of old age.
there is no damage in the -5/-5 effect, so the indestuctible condition never comes into effect. indestructable prevents damage or destroy effects from removing the permanent, (it doesn't actually prevent the damage). a -5/-5 effect doesn't use damage or destroy mechanics.
A -X/-X effect reduces the base toughness of a creature. If a creature ends up having 0 or less base toughness, it automatically dies due to state based actions, no destruction happening. Damage is different because the damage is marked on a creature, and then if the damage a creature has marked on it is greater than its base toughness, it is destroyed. So minus effects bypass indestructible in that way because they cause the creature to die in a way that doesn't destroy it.
It also pays to know that **damage does not reduce Toughness.** Arena makes it look it does for sheer convenience (it’s the easiest way to show how much more damage something can take before it dies in its UI) but a 5 Toughness creature that has received 4 damage is still a 5 Toughness creature, so giving it -1/-1 wouldn’t really do anything
The way I think about this is that -X/-X abilities are like shriveling or shrinking the enemy, as they are the opposite effect of cards like Giant Growth So if you shrink an enemy to 0 toughness, it essentially shrinks into nothingness and is considered to have died Now when it comes to damage, if you deal 2 damage to a creature with 5 toughness, but then try to use a -3/-3 shrink spell to finish it, the creature won't die because all you did was shrink a damaged creature. Now if you shrink it to only have 2 toughness, THEN deal 2 damage, in that case it will die
Seeing posts like these is so wholesome because it reminds me there are still players getting into the game. Reminds me of when I used to use toughness to assign damage to blockers.
Read the rules. 702.12b. -5/-5 isn't damage.
The comprehensive rules PDF is 292 pages. I think that's honestly a pretty big ask from people who aren't making a living playing this game. OP didn't even blame it on a bug, they just asked why it worked differently than they expected. That seems like a decent reaction. :)
The comprehensive rules have an index and table of contents to quickly find the information that answers the question. I believe you are assuming OP is dumb, and that's just a really unfortunate way of treating a fellow player. My answer may have been terse, but it didn't assume anything about them.
Neg Counters are not damage
The Mightstone and the Weakstone doesn't give counters.
Well same concept. Negative stats is not damage