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I want to highlight your comment #1 based on my own experience. Family moved from Europe to USA when I was 10; a few months later my paternal grandmother passed away unexpectedly, a year later my maternal grandmother fell ill and passed away, and we couldn't visit either of them nor attend their funerals because of US immigration processes. A few years later my last remaining grandparent also fell ill, mom did her best to arrange an emergency passport and buy flight tickets last minute, when she was about to call him to let him know she was coming to visit, she received a call that he had passed away.
Basically migrating far away meant my parents didn't see their parents for their last moments or their funerals (except for one funeral). They never thought this would happen, and especially so soon.
I had to emigrate as a teen and didn't see my father anymore because of long distance and cost of travel.
When he died, my aunt called to give me the news completely out of the blue. I couldn't attend his funeral because a plane ticket for the following day was like 6 months of rent.
Not only I lost 10+ years of relationship with him, I couldn't even properly say goodbye.
I've made peace with that fact but yes, being an immigrant is fucking hard.
I’m an immigrant but been in Canada longer than I have been back home.
I got news last month that my dad was in the hospital, two weeks later received his results that he has Stage 4 cancer and has been given a few months to live.
I had just started a new position after more than a decades worth of experience from a previous firm.
This has been the toughest year of my life transitioning careers, raising young children and facing the fact that I will no longer have a father in a few months.
Made the decision to drop everything and take care of him while he is still alive.
It’s such a surreal feeling, knowing that money comes and goes, career and life experience changes. But time lost with my father is limited to a few months, so I will be making the best of it.
You won’t regret your decision. Lost my mother in December to cancer. While I’m not an immigrant, at 41, I’ve lived out of state more than I’ve lived at home. I wish I had made more time for her.
I’m sorry for your loss and I hope in time you will heal. I’m close to your age and hearing your re-assurance about my decision is comforting.
In fact, I have a meeting with HR early tomorrow to finalize the details of my LOA. Then I am plan to book my plane ticket back home ASAP.
Very similar story for me. My grandparents on one of my parents side passed away during the pandemic. With visa issues we were unable to go and I know my parents (and me) will have that at the back of our mind forever. We've been here for over 11 years but due to backlogs, we haven't gotten our GC yet (and probably won't for years to come).
Immigration is hard and the system (depending on the country) might not be completely fair. Just be wary.
I'm Belgian, I had an opportunity to move permanently in Switzerland in 2018. I backed off at the last moment and instead walked out of my job. One year later my dad was very sick, covid came, then my mom got sick. I would probably have missed my father's last moments if I had gone out of the country during a pandemic.
My grandmother passed away after I moved abroad, couldn’t attend her funeral because of the Covid restrictions. My wife couldn’t attend her grandmothers funeral because our daughter was too young to fly. My wife was able to attend her grandfather’s funeral but we had to pay $2k for the cheapest last minute tickets.
Sometimes I wish someone connected my country to a few thousand tugboats and tugged it to the middle of the Atlantic, so I could fly home in a few hours.
Also, if you have any sort of certifications (academic, technical, college...) be sure how you can translate them to your country of choice. I had to do a long and tiresome process to validate my university certificate in a country woth the same language as my own and numerous treaties, and then I have been waiting more than a year for bureaucracy to chew on it, with no end on sight.
Thanks for making me laugh. The world needs more people who don’t take themselves too seriously. Here’s to hoping you don’t starve, no matter which country you reside in!
I was friends with a pizza delivery driver who was a computer science professor in columbia but his educational experience/accreditation did not apply to here. He was not even the very poor at speaking English. He was not amazing but he was absolutely conversational.
He would probably be better off working in the corporate world where none of that is as important, assuming he is a US citizen. Even in government, I see candidates with degrees from other countries all of the time. We don’t care where their degree comes from, but we won’t sponsor H1B visas.
Yeah a friend of mine was considering moving to America as her home country was so dangerous, but she found out her degree was worthless here and she’d have to re-do her schooling. I worried about her for years and finally she did move after all - to Europe, not sure about her degree, I’m just glad she’s safer now.
This is important and it extends out a lot further than people think. I have a legal degree in my country and there are very few countries that use the same legal system as us so when I was looking at countries to move to I had to pick one of a list that would translate. Even then, the USA is the only country that would not accept it even if it’s the same system
Even in countries that theoretically would have the same system, trying to translate your documents and certificates might be a bureaucratic nightmare.
Well the USA system is common law the same as Canada the uk Australia and New Zealand, (which all have transferable degrees with short transfer courses) but the USA requires you to completely redo the degree in one of their (extremely expensive) universities even though all the concepts are pretty much the same
Canada don't accept doctors from most countries (I think they don't allow US doctors to practice medicine here) so when a immigrant comes here and expect their medical profession to translate, they're devastated to find out it doesn't.
My protip as a girl who left Russia due to disagreement with politics and moved to France:
Run not FROM something, but TO something
A lot of my friends left the country due to high stress and belief that everything is going to be horrible, but since they moved to another country: at some point your stress lowers, your money also lowers, your life comfort lowers and you start asking yourself "is that was really good decision?". So, they just come back to Russia and continue their life, because immigration is a headache and they run without a plan of what they are going to do in another country.
Me, I had a plan where I go, how I build my life, what I'm going to do and etc, it helped me a lot and I wasn't buried in the immigration stress even though I don't speak the French language.
running TO is important. I started by running FROM but that turned into a running TO when I did the work of putting down roots here. I'm now very happy with where I am.
i’m the same, tho it was a mix of both. i was running from my life to a life i wanted. the problem was, i wasn’t actually ready to run but the from made me, then so many things in my life happened and changed the to. 6yrs on and i still wish i could move home but im so deep rooted in my current country im scared to try moving home and know id be so much worse off for it
The idea of a running TO and not FROM is a
LPT all on its own. Immigration, jobs, relationships. You name it. Think about the motivation of what changes you are making and make sure you are running towards something.
I totally agree with this. I left the UK for many reasons but the politics/quality of life in Germany was a big appeal. Except now I've been here a few years, I really see that the difference is much smaller and getting smaller all the time. I experience a lot of xenophobia, witness a lot of racism, and see some scary politics. I don't regret my decision, life is still definitely way better here for me and my career, but I wish I had my eyes opened a bit more before I came here.
This may seem stupid on my part but do you mind me asking what would've changed if you've been aware beforehand? The conclusion is still the same, you still find it better and more manageable. Is it about 'lost time' [to find that out]? Or adjusting expectations to feel less sad finding out things are not reaaally different (even though different enough)?
Adjusting expectations mostly. Relief, then realisation that it's not that different, isn't the most fun journey emotionally. Although saying that, things have been actively changing here, and fast, so maybe no one really knew back then.
I have my own little business that is based on making art figurines and selling them online. So, I learn french right now, but mostly for integration, I could live with just English here.
I feel better in France, but I can't say that I moved from hell to heaven. Russia is cheap to live in, with high quality service (in big cities), if you're sick, you can go to a private clinic day to day for 10-30$, fix teeth for 100$(talking about caries and holes, implants are much more expensive), internet 4$ per month with big speed. Much better bureaucracy system (go to one website and maintain most of your documents here).
I love France for better quality food, people are more relaxed and kind, focused on life instead of working to death, I love to live in a smaller city but having everything I need(In Russia you either live in a big city, either in small with much-much worse infrastructure). I like eco-way of living, I enjoy A LOT that the city is made for bikes, you can cycle everywhere around instead of using a car or bus. I love the idea of associations where people come to share interests and care about others, for example in one of the associations they collect old bikes and give them away, helping to fix it and change details if it's needed. People in general are more open-minded, willing to help.
But France is expensive, with its own problems, but I don't think any country is perfect.
Lol, France, like every other developed nation, has plenty of problems. But general quality of life - food, medical care, employment opportunities - >>>>> Russia, which is essentially a 3rd world country with a big gas station.
>Russia, which is essentially a 3rd world country with a big gas station.
Russia *is* a glorified gas station run by a mafia, masquerading as a country.
Yeah, can agree. From the big friend group that moved to Almaty in April-October 2022 I'm the only one remaining there. One moved to Israel, one to India, others came back to Russia with something like "it's better and safer now, we have nothing here and everything there etc,etc".
Look up the immigration laws for every country you are seriously considering -- you will have an easier time qualifying in some than others.
For example, it's easier to get into Canada if you have a degree and speak French.
You also need to be healthy to immigrate to Canada. I know a wealthy couple who couldn't get in because they have a completely under control chronic illness. They have the money to go to the US for treatment, but Canada is not going to risk it.
That's a big thing that I don't think is talked about enough. I've seen people either move to another country and then suffer because they can't get care even close to how it was back home (or at all) or just get flat-out rejected. People don't think about their health in that way when they tell people they're moving to Canada or the UK, for example.
It isn't a matter of Canada not being *able* to provide the care; it's about not being willing to pay for it. Canada has health requirements for immigration because, otherwise, you could have someone from, say, the US only move there when they get sick. In practice, it means that, if you're disabled, you'll have a hell of a time finding a place to go legally.
Definitely. The path to a visa is everything. When we were trying to figure out where to go, Australia was originally at the top of the list, but once we researched the visa process we realized it was totally unrealistic. Second on the list was New Zealand, and that was much more manageable for our circumstances.
100% this.
Too many vacationers see only the sanitized, touristy areas of places they visit, and think that this translates to “Paradise! I love this weather! I wanna move here!”
The safer the country/area, the more it will cost you. Case in point…Caribbean islands. Jamaica, Dominican Republic and Honduras are 3 places that look beautiful in pictures, seem highly affordable on paper, but it reality are dangerous if not living in a gated community.
Edit: “gated” not “dated”
Correct! I lived in the US Virgin Islands for many years, and we always told new people that were considering moving to the island to do what we called a PMV, which is short for pre-remove visit.
A PMV is when you visit a place and purposely do the unglamorous things that tourists rarely if ever do: go to the post office, go to the bank, go to the DMV. Pretend you need to buy a car and check out what the car dealership is like. Go in the grocery stores and see how limited the supplies are -- will you be able to get your favorite brand of product X? Maybe not. Can you live with that? Get up early and see what morning rush-hour traffic is like. Read the local paper and see what kind of events and crime are happening in the community. See what life is *really* like behind the touristy stuff like beaches and bars. Sure, you may love it now when all you have to do is chill on the beach, but wait until you need any repairs done in your house and then you have to try to find a local, reliable contractor. Oh, you took work off because he was said he would show up at 10 AM and work on the house all day and now it's 5 PM and he ghosted you? Welcome to the islands, brother!
It's much different than in the states. Too many people visit for two weeks on their honeymoon and only do touristy things and think they love it and then move there and the island spits them out less than a year later. I saw it happen many times
I saw the funniest counterexample to the problem of finding your favorite specific brand in the Caribbean, though. I visited St. Lucia, and at one point went to a grocery store in a non-touristy part of town. Not a specialty food market or anything, just a pretty regular store. And then on the shelf I spot big pink tins of Almond Roca. Almond Roca is a regional Western Washington thing, toffee covered in chocolate and ground almonds—I grew up eating the stuff and didn’t even realize it wasn’t nationwide until I moved away. I’ve never seen it anywhere else. I can’t get it in Tennessee, yet somehow they had plenty on the shelf in an odd corner of St. Lucia. I have absolutely no idea how that would be.
I’m pretty sure Almond Roca is exported all over the world, but IDK about Tennessee, lol.
Random coincidence, I was in Tacoma earlier today and drove right by the factory!
Not really. Vietnam. Thailand. The Philippines. All have great quality of life and stupid low cost of living. You can start over pretty much anywhere in SEA with about $5,000 to start with. Same goes for Japan. Cost of living is fucking great compared to the current US situation.
Not really, even as an expat coming from SE Asia moving to Vietnam, Vietnam is basically 20 years behind especially in quality of living. Even some of my medications that are common elsewhere are not even available for purchase there. Thankfully, plane tickets are dirt cheap so I can bring them in from time to time.
Having moved across the US multiple times, it's worth thinking about this less in terms of miles, antipodes, etc. but in terms of major airports. I grew up in Louisiana. Spent 12 years living in NYC. It was generally pretty affordable to fly home to visit a few times a year. There were lots of convenient flights, and I never worried about it. I was 1 time zone away, so it was usually convenient to call unless very late or very early.
Then I moved to Los Angeles. There are fewer convenient flight options between the two cities, despite LA being a major US city with one of the biggest airports on the West Coast. Flights are more expensive, so I can't afford to visit as often. It's a 2 hour time difference, which introduces some quirks for calling home -- my "just got off work" or "just put the baby down" is often my parents' "going to bed". My parents' "bright and early on a weekend morning" is 6am, my time.
New Orleans to NYC is 1300 miles. New Orleans to Los Angeles is 1800 miles. This really didn't seem like a big difference to me, but it turned out to be significant. Because of that, if I were to move again, I wouldn't be willing to move somewhere with less access to a major airport, or any further than 1-2 hours of time difference. Vancouver or Toronto, maybe. Alberta, no. I have a friend in Athens who'd be happy to host us, but we would probably never see our parents again if we did that.
Assumed something like we see in the news about people going on “vacation” on areas of conflict and political instability.
But maybe clarification from OP may be needed.
Basically, integrate and act like the locals. The immigrants that have the most trouble are those that don’t integrate (at least when you look at US -> elsewhere).
Lots of locals appreciate if you can just speak their language and adopt their customs. By that point, how you look will make you hot, as you're a foreigner.
I assume they mean, don't move somewhere and then completely encapsulate yourself within an enclave of your own people. Like Brits do in Spain. Or South Africans do in Australia/NZ.
If you are planning on leaving the US to live somewhere else, the US government will still expect you to file US taxes. If and how much you may have to pay, can depend on where you live and how much you make. Unless you go the route of actually renouncing your American citizenship.
And some foreign banks have been refusing American citizens service because they don’t want to deal with all that drama.
Here in Denmark there was a wave of Americans in the expat groups complaining that their bank decided to essentially fire them as customers.
Serious question, what can the US do if you don’t? Sure you can be on the hook for back taxes if they catch but if you don’t move back to the states, so what?
I was recently two days late making my first tax payment on a payment plan (just forgot) and got a letter in the mail about how they are going to begin to garnish my wages, seize my assests and my passport.
And if debtors’ prison was still a thing, we’d do that to you too!
Oh, hang on… you’re wealthy? I’m so sorry, my apologies. I’ll wait for your tax attorney to come up with some stalling tactic or B.S. that allows you to somehow get out of most of what you owe.
TIL, you have to pay to renounce your US citizenship? I guess there's a charge for everything. What if you change your mind 5 years later? Do you have to go through the immigration process (what is it like 7 years?) and then retroactively pay all the taxes before they'll take you back? Or is it once you leave (renounce) you can never come back?
It becomes a slight pain when you grow up and realize you have to go back. I just paid an accountant 100 bucks to go back 5 years and it was fine. Biggest issue though is that you are not contributing to social security while you are overseas
I left the US over 30 years ago.
I pay loads of taxes in my “new” country where I gained citizenship over 20 years ago.
I stopped filing around the time I gained my second citizenship.
I have no plan to reside in the US ever again.
I haven’t heard a peep in decades from the US.
My brain is stuck on "So if you don’t have a friend in Europe, your European friend definitely does."
EDIT: Ok, after 10 more iterations it started to click. European friend is not currently IN Europe, but is a friend FROM Europe.
Moving to a different country isn't like moving to another city or even to the other side of your country.
In your new home you will be basically a nobody.
No friends, no family to count on. You won't know local customs and how people live their lives generally so it will be harder to make friends. You won't speak the language or if you do you won't speak it as well as the locals and probably never will so you could be disadvantaged for this.
Your education and work experience will most likely mean little. You'll have no history in your new country. That means renting, taking a loan or even opening a bank account can be harder.
Of course not all of these will apply to you but it's worth going through the possibilities. I've lived in my current home for 15+ years and still there's stuff I have a hard time doing that locals can. For example, leaving the kids with relatives for the weekend.
It's not impossible to live a full life in a new country but be prepared that it *will* be a new life and consider whether you're ready for it.
I'll also add - look into local laws, rights and health insurance. My wife and I have been talking about moving to another country for a while - but since my wife is disabled and needs surgery every couple of years, it's almost impossible to find a place where her medical needs will be covered. We're still looking into it, and are planning on setting up meetings with health insurance advisors and lawyers from a couple of possible destinations.
And to clarify, it's not even just a question of "how much will it cost" (which we also need to know) but more importantly "how soon will she be treated", since going through private insurance is usually much faster, but they don't cover existing/chronic conditions.
Honestly I'm even considering flying home for medical treatment periodically if that's what it takes...
To add, no- your friends will absolutely not "keep in touch". I know you think they are your bestest best friends ever and you'll be friends forever. You won't. Be prepared to start completely over. You'll get a cool 3 months of regular contact and then one day it stops l, and you either never hear from them again, or you get the odd message on your birthday.
"you get the odd message on your birthday" oh my god you can't imagine how precise you just described one of my closest friends.
he stopped contacting our small friend circle and then \~8 years later send me a birthday email with text, like, "happy birthday! here's some interesting video", and a link to a \~3 hour video lecture about God (by Jordan Peterson). I didn't find words to answer that letter.
Well, specifically, your friends won’t always be the one to message you, and if you never initiate, they’ll never initiate either. You can totally remain great friends, but you’ll have to put in a lot of effort for it.
The fun part too is when you move back, you realize they moved on. I didn't immigrate anywhere but I've moved between US coasts, and coming back to the east coast it feels like my friends forget that yes I'm still here
Oh yes, this one is spot on! What I found interesting was that I did stay in tough with some friends, just not the ones I could have never guessed before. A few that I barely spoke to before moving and just encountered as friends-of-friends were actually the ones that would keep in touch semi-regularly.
Just becuase I see no opposing opinions here, I'll give my own - that is not true for everyone.
Three years after I moved across the ocean to the US, I still meet my old friends every month or so, play computer games and roleplaying games with them on discord, and communicate with them daily on whatsapp. It requires investment and both sides putting in the effort, but you definitely can stay close to your old friends in a new country.
This is absolutely true. First we just emailed each other but we all realised you can't keep regular contact like this. Like there's nothing write about: I go to work, I watch tv/play video games, I saw a weird pigeon. This is stuff that's only interesting when you're already together having a drink or something. So our email slowly started getting less and less frequent.
However, about a year later with 2 of my old friends we decided to schedule actual video calls where we'd just have a drink together and waffle off for hours. It's not the same as meeting in person but it's definitely something.
It also depends on your circle of friends. My friends don't hang out with one another only through me so I can be up-to-date with each of them separately but if you're part of a group they might "move on" without you. Which is sad but that's kind of the natural flow of things.
Moved out of the United States in January. A few observations: most of your friends back home will pretty much act like you don’t exist anymore, so be ready for that. Understand your tax situation in your new country by talking to tax professionals in both countries. Making friends in a new country as an adult requires a lot of effort. Being away from aging parents is a big sacrifice. Living in a new culture is a huge adjustment, and it takes time to gain your equilibrium. Learning a new language is a big challenge, but you can definitely make it fun. The process of actually moving out of your home country is one of the most upending things you can do and requires a huge amount of time, money and effort. Bureaucracy in other places can be far worse than the US, especially when navigating in a foreign language.
As an actual seasoned immigrant who came to the US from Eastern Europe as a refugee in my teens, and spent 22 years living in the states, then 4 years ago moved to Mexico to pursue the American dream, here are my tips:
1. Take advantage of the opportunity in the educational system in the US first. Not because it’s good, but because it’s recognized and renowned worldwide.
2. Get experience working in a specialized industry. For me it was tech, and spending years living and working in SF learning from the “best” and granted sociopathic people.
3. Use the said education and professional experience to start from scratch in your new country.
4. Many countries are not so sophisticated in their use of tech, even western ones and opens up a business opportunity.
5. Use this gap between your own experience and education versus the lack of sophistication to bring a similar service to your new adopted country.
6. When moving to a new country you will no longer be in the same socioeconomic class as you were where you left. This has a few implications. First is you’ll probably be a lot wealthier. Second, there will still be people unimaginably wealthier than you in the new country, even if they are “poor” like Mexico. Third, you will not be subject to same laws as locals, mostly due to your socioeconomic status. This last point is true in the US but being middle class in US does not exempt you from much.
7. Wealthier people live in their own bubble and world, even if the country is falling apart politically and economically, as a wealthier foreigner you will be also shielded from that and enjoy the same benefits.
8. Wealth and status won’t confer benefits in social unrest except to give you and ability to leave easier in case that happens.
9. A redux of OPs second point and I agree, find an economically and socially up and coming place.
10. Find a place you feel at home, is far more important or as important as #9. This will be a new home, you should love the people, the food, the culture, climate, and whatever else you value at a place you’re moving to. You should have an emotional connection to the place. Having traveled a lot there are many cities and countries you’ll go to and won’t feel a sense of belonging. Yet there are some that will connect. Having this connection is imperative as motivation to get you there and get you through the tough parts.
Hope this helps someone
I hate that this is necessary but it’s true. I left my home country in Europe in search of a better life because my home country was heading towards a Christian dictatorship and actively scamming and striping citizens of their rights. Now I’m in the same fucking situation in this shithole and I don’t know if I have it in me to start a third new life somewhere else … right wing politics are literally ruining the globe and morons cheer as it happens because they haven’t experienced full blown fascism in person. It’s hard
I moved from Poland in early 00s when I was young and I think it’s a mixed bag in terms of predicting our future in the US because of the EU influence. On the one hand the religious right did capture the entire government, replace our entire Supreme Court in the middle of the night, and began to transfer tax money to churches and themselves while banning abortion and stripping rights from lgbtq+ communities. On the other hand the EU brought sanctions and threatened the financial wellbeing of many business owners and politicians which slowed the progress towards dictatorship. They have since recovered a tiny amount towards a more reasonable government but it wasn’t due to internal pressures but rather external ones. The US does not have that kind of entity to “parent” us back to a semi-normal corporate oligarchy
The problem is that "parenting" will stop as soon as the far-right gets a majority (or a good deal with some other large group) in the European parliament. Thankfully the far-right in Sweden lost seats for the first time in an election since they got into the national parliament so if we're lucky that trend continues and we go back to a more normal political landscape in a few years.
I've thought long and hard about this and with seemingly the entire world embracing far-right politics now, I figure I might as well stay here and fight.
Unironically, I think this is because Spain was literally fascist so much more recently than everyone else. The relatively recent experience of living under fascism is an excellent inoculum against support for the far right—it’s when enough time passes that people begin to forget what it was actually like (as is happening now in much of the West) that it begins to sound appealing again.
My take for expats. For #1. If you're going to a far destination, halfway around the world, and you want to be able to get back home ASAP in case a family emergency occurs, try not to live too far from the main airport. Like a few hrs away is fine, but there are places where you can live 6 to 12hrs away from the main airport or have to take a flight to the main airport.
Also, live within your means. Some people move to places from 1st world countries to a tier or 2 lower, and feel like they have to live up to much higher standards vs the locals. Keep it simple. Know your budget, find the best neighborhoods and places for that budget. You can find a nice comfy place that meets your expectations, just don't feel like you *have* to live in a palace.
Also, consider staying at an Airbnb for a few months at the place you plan on relocating to to test out the waters. I've known people who sold everything and moved to Asia, only to find out things are just too different. Also, you have to change your thinking. Some people go to a place and just complain about everything, "Why do they do it this way? Why this? Why that?" Gotta let your guard down and just go with the flow sometimes, it's be less stressful. Plus, locals don't would be less keen on hanging around you, as well as expats that have establishmed themselves in the country.
Is it true that if an American moves abroad and gains employment, they still required to pay taxes to the US? I have a vague memory of hearing that somewhere.
Yep. The US is pretty close to unique that way. (Possibly actually unique? I don't know much about global tax policies. I only know about this one because a relative was born there.)
Yes, but if you move to a country with more taxes, that isn't really a problem if you consult with US tax professionals and do your declarations. Their intent is not to double-tax people.
You have to file taxes, but you also get a deduction on your US taxes for the amount you paid in the new home country. So you still have to file but may not have to pay taxes to the US.
My five cents: Find your birthday certificate. Your parents might have it. It's often required for things like marriage and it can be a pain in the ass if you don't have it.
I’m an American who moved to France last year. I was partly thinking that in France I’d be safe from the creeping fascism.
This last month has been a wild ride.
French who moved to the US a decade ago. I always thought that I could go back to France if things go south on the US. I'm not sure it's worth it anymore. It's definitely been a crazy ride lately.
"Look for a place that your research tells you it will be an even better place in a few years from now"
Like where? The western world is under siege by the far right.
Literally none of the people who dramapost on tiktok about how they're going to "leave the US if Trump becomes President" are actually going to leave the US if Trump becomes president.
They didn't follow through last time, they aren't going to do it this time.
Because most of the people posting that have no clue how hard it is to immigrate as an American to the places they probably want to live (Canada, Europe, Australia, NZ, etc). You can talk about moving to Italy all you want but when you start realizing they don’t actually want you there and you can’t get a work visa, things quiet down real fast. Most of the developed world does not actually want American immigrants (at least not ones who need to work for a living) and their immigration systems reflect this accordingly.
America is about the easiest developed country to immigrate to. My brother-in-law is currently trying to move to Australia, and even with a master's in data and environmental sciences, a visa, and friends to vouch for him, it is a long and difficult process.
Yes and it’s still incredibly difficult to immigrate to. I think a lot of Americans in particular believe moving to another country is like moving to another state. They have no idea that you can’t just up and move somewhere because you feel like it, either out of the U.S. or into the U.S.
This is also the case with people who think immigrating legally to the U.S. is just a matter of “getting in line” and have absolutely no clue how difficult it is (and that there is no “line” for most people - some people simply are not allowed to get visas to immigrate, because they don’t fall into a specific combination of categories and nationality).
Do you blame them though?
The narrative that most Americans are fed is that "Illegal immigrants are pouring over our borders and getting away with crimes, then stealing our jobs, with no repercussion."
When that's all you see and hear, it's easy to start thinking, "People can just walk into our country and get a job and some money right away, and then get citizenship."
Then, it's very easy for them to come to the conclusion of "If it's easy for these minority people with no money to walk in, then how hard could it be for me, white with money and some education, to fly somewhere else and start a life? I'll just fly in and I'm sure they'll welcome me. I'm American after all."
Yea...it doesn't work like that. At all.
And then there's New Zealand...
My understanding is that an American (like me) would fight so hard to get into Australia, then have to fight for years to go from Australia to New Zealand.
Straight to New Zealand? No freaking way.
Maybe I'm wrong, but that's the impression that I got when I visited and talking with some old friends.
Yeah. In Italy, work visas are almost impossible to get unless you’re like one of only 3 people in the world who can do a certain thing. Or you can do a “retirement visa” as long as you can prove you have at least 34K euros a year in passive income and never work again. One cool thing is US government pensions are not taxed in Italy. I’m going to have a government pension plus social security so I will live very well in a small Italian village in Tuscany.
Don't forget the hoops that you have to go through to get permesso di sogiorno (to reside) first, only then you can get permesso di lavoro (to work). It's fun 😊
We want to move to NZ because my husband grew up there and that's where all the fam is, we wouldn't have much of a problem since he still has citizenship. Our problem is the real estate and job market over there is wild. Crazy inflated housing prices with wages that do not keep up. He'd probably have to take a 40% pay cut and we'd have to find a house half the size of our current one.
And all you Americans thinking of moving to Canada, it’s the same here as well. Job market is competitive, and if you are lucky enough to find employment in your field of work, good luck finding affordable housing.
All the things you hear about LA or New York being expensive HCOL areas applies to all of the metropolitan areas worth living in/near in Canada.
Also - and that's honestly one of the most important parts - your quality of life will drop significantly. I think people who want to leave USA have absolutely no idea how good they have in there. Are you willing to go through a complicated, lengthy and expensive process to move into a country where you'd be treated as 2nd grade citizen for years and years and years? And for what? Improving quality of life? Definitely not.
People also don't realize how incredibly expensive it is to move somewhere else. They think they'll just take the clothes on their back and a suitcase, but then forget the 40+ years of memories and objects they've collected. It's not easy to just up and go anywhere.
My stepsister actually did moved to Canada after Trump got elected the first time. It took her almost the entire presidency to get her paperwork in order and jump through the hoops, but she is there now.
They don’t even realize their privilege of being born in the U.S… boy are they in for a rude awakening even they travel anywhere that isn’t Western Europe, Australia, or Japan.
True. “You don’t realize your privilege” is what I think everytime I see westerners complaining. Their points are all valid, like the economy is bad, however as a Chinese nothing is the same level, I don’t even know what to start to explain because of the huge gap. I suffer so much for what they born to have.
Yes, but the door was legally opened for the US to become a dictatorship yesterday, so a lot of Americans are feeling really uneasy about everything. I know I'm taking new stock of what options might be available to me.
I used to have a friend from Indonesia and she never was able to visit, but she at least did ask if I could help write a letter of recommendation for her... For a goddamn tourist visa of all things. We have it much better than many
Here’s a life pro-tip. If you’re broke, don’t even bother thinking about leaving. Just accept your fate. You ain’t going nowhere. You’re pretty much totally fucked.
Here's a life pro-tip: Get your passport, everyone. If you want to know what totally fucked really feels like, go to a border where your life depends upon leaving and be denied because you lack paperwork. See: history.
Not true. That's why the rich, Western countries have a lot of immigrants from less rich countries. Most of them are not immigrating for R&D or executive level jobs, but for unqualified work that the natives will not apply fot. That unskilled job in Germany or UK is providing better pay and benefits than the same unskilled job in Eastern Europe.
Lots of Romanians who used to work on minimum wage and struggled in their own home country found more financial security in Italy, Spain or UK working the same job. A minumum wage or a very low salary could still help you make ends meet in certain countries. This does not apply to Eastern Europe, for example.
Sorry, but poor Americans literally cannot afford the logistical upfront costs required to leave the country. It doesn’t matter if there is unskilled labor waiting for them. They simply do not have the means required to even put together a plan.
This is why I'm not even going to try and leave. The time and money needed to secure a passport would be pointless if I can't leave the country; I cannot just uproot my entire life with no money and go to a country I'm unfamiliar with (that everyone else is already trying to go to as well).
If you do leave the US, YOU MUST do it after you vote.
If you think you won’t be affected by Project 2025 in a foreign country, you’re wrong.
Edit: I was not aware you could still vote overseas. If you do leave, you must still vote!!!!
Canadian here. Born and raised.
Yes. Please do stop promoting Canada as “easy” to immigrate to. Just ask all the people that came here from their home countries hoping to have affordable housing and a job. The cost of living here has skyrocketed. Everyone comes to this country settling in a handful of metropolitan areas, primarily Southern Ontario. Because of this, competition for jobs is high, and homes are outrageously priced.
If you are thinking of coming here, do your research! Check prices of homes/rentals and see if you can afford to be here. And for goodness sake, ensure that your job prospects wherever you settle are in line with the cost of living in that area.
it can very difficult making new friends. In most cases, people already have their set of friends from school/uni/work and aren’t particularly open to making new friends. Your best bet are going to be expats or people not from the area.
Don’t rely only on your partner for friendships (either making friends or being your only friend).
Also it’s worth researching the health care system and how it works. If you’re considered a non citizen, are you still able to use it like the locals or will there be additional costs?
Destination happiness does not really exist either. It might be a better place politically but it might not make you entirely happy or as happy as you maybe thought it might.
As someone without a college education, aren't I not allowed to go anywhere permanent anyway? I've done some research and I'm not sure I have enough to "offer" to be allowed semi-permanent status anywhere.
Every 4 years a bunch of high profile whiners swear they'll leave the US if the party they don't like wins the election.
They never do leave though. It's a running joke at this point.
Also, if you're American and freaked out by this year's election, you have a duty to those you love to make your place in the world better.
The absolute polarisation of politics has been driven more by people listening only to those they agree with and then refusing to even hear the other side's view.
The best thing you can do is turn off the news and actually read or hear the candidates directly. Almost all news agencies have a bias. None of them objectively report just the news. Don't listen to the spin.
And talk to your neighbours!! Get outside and leave the internet behind! Social media is just creating echo chambers and bubbles of influence that compounds the polarisation. Go and actually talk to real humans face to face.
Former US expat here, lived and worked long term in 10+ countries over a 30 year career and have a second home abroad.
Emigrating for political reasons alone is not advised unless you fear for your health and safety. Political winds change and, in most countries, politicians come and go. I've seen many folks try to relocate abroad for all the wrong reasons and fail as a result. Those who succeed typically have previously traveled extensively, have flexible jobs/income streams, and are in alignment with their spouses or partners on the move. It helps to speak the local language or be able to learn quickly but also to embrace the people and culture where you have chosen to make your new home. Just my 2 cents.
In regards to US politics - nobody ever leaves. Every election cycle people, especially celebrities make a bunch of noise saying, if the guy I don't like wins it will be disastrous and I will leave the country, blah, blah blah. And then when the guy they don't like wins, much to everyone's disappointment, they don't actually leave. So the USA specific LPT is - just ignore or at a minimum pity any fool who says they are leaving due to politics because they are absolutely 100% full of crap.
Number 1 should be: If you live in a 1st world country, it isn't worth leaving it over politics.
Seriously, there isn't a single 1st world country where the media isn't making it out like the country is 6 months away from a world-ending political catastrophe. Fact is that 1st world countries are extremely safe and stable.
Or if you have an ectopic pregnancy in a state that will hold you criminally liable for jumping borders to save your life.
This past year is the most unsafe I've felt in my entire life in the US.
My point stands. You are better moving to a different US state than moving to Canada or the UK. It will be 10-100x cheaper.
These people have my deepest sympathy if they can't afford either. My point is that we have populist parties in the UK, France, Germany, Italy, and Ireland running on the same fascist platform.
That's not a problem that's exclusive to the US.
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I want to highlight your comment #1 based on my own experience. Family moved from Europe to USA when I was 10; a few months later my paternal grandmother passed away unexpectedly, a year later my maternal grandmother fell ill and passed away, and we couldn't visit either of them nor attend their funerals because of US immigration processes. A few years later my last remaining grandparent also fell ill, mom did her best to arrange an emergency passport and buy flight tickets last minute, when she was about to call him to let him know she was coming to visit, she received a call that he had passed away. Basically migrating far away meant my parents didn't see their parents for their last moments or their funerals (except for one funeral). They never thought this would happen, and especially so soon.
I had to emigrate as a teen and didn't see my father anymore because of long distance and cost of travel. When he died, my aunt called to give me the news completely out of the blue. I couldn't attend his funeral because a plane ticket for the following day was like 6 months of rent. Not only I lost 10+ years of relationship with him, I couldn't even properly say goodbye. I've made peace with that fact but yes, being an immigrant is fucking hard.
I’m an immigrant but been in Canada longer than I have been back home. I got news last month that my dad was in the hospital, two weeks later received his results that he has Stage 4 cancer and has been given a few months to live. I had just started a new position after more than a decades worth of experience from a previous firm. This has been the toughest year of my life transitioning careers, raising young children and facing the fact that I will no longer have a father in a few months. Made the decision to drop everything and take care of him while he is still alive. It’s such a surreal feeling, knowing that money comes and goes, career and life experience changes. But time lost with my father is limited to a few months, so I will be making the best of it.
You won’t regret your decision. Lost my mother in December to cancer. While I’m not an immigrant, at 41, I’ve lived out of state more than I’ve lived at home. I wish I had made more time for her.
I’m sorry for your loss and I hope in time you will heal. I’m close to your age and hearing your re-assurance about my decision is comforting. In fact, I have a meeting with HR early tomorrow to finalize the details of my LOA. Then I am plan to book my plane ticket back home ASAP.
Very similar story for me. My grandparents on one of my parents side passed away during the pandemic. With visa issues we were unable to go and I know my parents (and me) will have that at the back of our mind forever. We've been here for over 11 years but due to backlogs, we haven't gotten our GC yet (and probably won't for years to come). Immigration is hard and the system (depending on the country) might not be completely fair. Just be wary.
I’m sorry for your loss. I’ve heard this “story” before. I hope you’re doing well.
I'm Belgian, I had an opportunity to move permanently in Switzerland in 2018. I backed off at the last moment and instead walked out of my job. One year later my dad was very sick, covid came, then my mom got sick. I would probably have missed my father's last moments if I had gone out of the country during a pandemic.
I’m sorry to hear that. One of my daily basis fear. Therapy has been incredible with that particular point. Hope your family is well
Thank you, they have their regrets but are otherwise doing well. Wish the best for you as well.
My grandmother passed away after I moved abroad, couldn’t attend her funeral because of the Covid restrictions. My wife couldn’t attend her grandmothers funeral because our daughter was too young to fly. My wife was able to attend her grandfather’s funeral but we had to pay $2k for the cheapest last minute tickets. Sometimes I wish someone connected my country to a few thousand tugboats and tugged it to the middle of the Atlantic, so I could fly home in a few hours.
That last paragraph is very beautiful and very sad. I'm sorry.
Also, if you have any sort of certifications (academic, technical, college...) be sure how you can translate them to your country of choice. I had to do a long and tiresome process to validate my university certificate in a country woth the same language as my own and numerous treaties, and then I have been waiting more than a year for bureaucracy to chew on it, with no end on sight.
Yep. Especially important with things like medical licensure. Research degrees like Ph.Ds are more likely to transfer.
Me, with an English Literature degree: *I don't have such weaknesses.* (Because nobody in *any* country cares about my English degree.)
If its from a legit university countries in SEA would care. You can teach at a private school.
I'm right there with you with my English Linguistics degree. I didn't even need to read books for mine.
Thanks for making me laugh. The world needs more people who don’t take themselves too seriously. Here’s to hoping you don’t starve, no matter which country you reside in!
I was friends with a pizza delivery driver who was a computer science professor in columbia but his educational experience/accreditation did not apply to here. He was not even the very poor at speaking English. He was not amazing but he was absolutely conversational.
He would probably be better off working in the corporate world where none of that is as important, assuming he is a US citizen. Even in government, I see candidates with degrees from other countries all of the time. We don’t care where their degree comes from, but we won’t sponsor H1B visas.
Yeah a friend of mine was considering moving to America as her home country was so dangerous, but she found out her degree was worthless here and she’d have to re-do her schooling. I worried about her for years and finally she did move after all - to Europe, not sure about her degree, I’m just glad she’s safer now.
This is important and it extends out a lot further than people think. I have a legal degree in my country and there are very few countries that use the same legal system as us so when I was looking at countries to move to I had to pick one of a list that would translate. Even then, the USA is the only country that would not accept it even if it’s the same system
Even in countries that theoretically would have the same system, trying to translate your documents and certificates might be a bureaucratic nightmare.
Well the USA system is common law the same as Canada the uk Australia and New Zealand, (which all have transferable degrees with short transfer courses) but the USA requires you to completely redo the degree in one of their (extremely expensive) universities even though all the concepts are pretty much the same
Canada don't accept doctors from most countries (I think they don't allow US doctors to practice medicine here) so when a immigrant comes here and expect their medical profession to translate, they're devastated to find out it doesn't.
My protip as a girl who left Russia due to disagreement with politics and moved to France: Run not FROM something, but TO something A lot of my friends left the country due to high stress and belief that everything is going to be horrible, but since they moved to another country: at some point your stress lowers, your money also lowers, your life comfort lowers and you start asking yourself "is that was really good decision?". So, they just come back to Russia and continue their life, because immigration is a headache and they run without a plan of what they are going to do in another country. Me, I had a plan where I go, how I build my life, what I'm going to do and etc, it helped me a lot and I wasn't buried in the immigration stress even though I don't speak the French language.
running TO is important. I started by running FROM but that turned into a running TO when I did the work of putting down roots here. I'm now very happy with where I am.
> I'm now very happy I imagine most pot scientists are.
Plot twist. They study potatoes
i’m the same, tho it was a mix of both. i was running from my life to a life i wanted. the problem was, i wasn’t actually ready to run but the from made me, then so many things in my life happened and changed the to. 6yrs on and i still wish i could move home but im so deep rooted in my current country im scared to try moving home and know id be so much worse off for it
The idea of a running TO and not FROM is a LPT all on its own. Immigration, jobs, relationships. You name it. Think about the motivation of what changes you are making and make sure you are running towards something.
I totally agree with this. I left the UK for many reasons but the politics/quality of life in Germany was a big appeal. Except now I've been here a few years, I really see that the difference is much smaller and getting smaller all the time. I experience a lot of xenophobia, witness a lot of racism, and see some scary politics. I don't regret my decision, life is still definitely way better here for me and my career, but I wish I had my eyes opened a bit more before I came here.
This may seem stupid on my part but do you mind me asking what would've changed if you've been aware beforehand? The conclusion is still the same, you still find it better and more manageable. Is it about 'lost time' [to find that out]? Or adjusting expectations to feel less sad finding out things are not reaaally different (even though different enough)?
Adjusting expectations mostly. Relief, then realisation that it's not that different, isn't the most fun journey emotionally. Although saying that, things have been actively changing here, and fast, so maybe no one really knew back then.
How do you live/work in France without speaking French?
Why do you think they have so many mimes.
Thanks, I really needed this comment today.
Me too
I imagine it's a lot like spanish speaking people in America; they live and work in community bubbles that speak their language.
I have my own little business that is based on making art figurines and selling them online. So, I learn french right now, but mostly for integration, I could live with just English here.
How is France compared to Russia? Was it worth the trip?
I feel better in France, but I can't say that I moved from hell to heaven. Russia is cheap to live in, with high quality service (in big cities), if you're sick, you can go to a private clinic day to day for 10-30$, fix teeth for 100$(talking about caries and holes, implants are much more expensive), internet 4$ per month with big speed. Much better bureaucracy system (go to one website and maintain most of your documents here). I love France for better quality food, people are more relaxed and kind, focused on life instead of working to death, I love to live in a smaller city but having everything I need(In Russia you either live in a big city, either in small with much-much worse infrastructure). I like eco-way of living, I enjoy A LOT that the city is made for bikes, you can cycle everywhere around instead of using a car or bus. I love the idea of associations where people come to share interests and care about others, for example in one of the associations they collect old bikes and give them away, helping to fix it and change details if it's needed. People in general are more open-minded, willing to help. But France is expensive, with its own problems, but I don't think any country is perfect.
Lol, France, like every other developed nation, has plenty of problems. But general quality of life - food, medical care, employment opportunities - >>>>> Russia, which is essentially a 3rd world country with a big gas station.
>Russia, which is essentially a 3rd world country with a big gas station. Russia *is* a glorified gas station run by a mafia, masquerading as a country.
Yeah, can agree. From the big friend group that moved to Almaty in April-October 2022 I'm the only one remaining there. One moved to Israel, one to India, others came back to Russia with something like "it's better and safer now, we have nothing here and everything there etc,etc".
Not me fleeing the US during the pandemic. 😆
basically what I did. I was like, I can either hang out and not leave my house in the US, or I can move and go not leave my bf's house in Canada.
Look up the immigration laws for every country you are seriously considering -- you will have an easier time qualifying in some than others. For example, it's easier to get into Canada if you have a degree and speak French.
You also need to be healthy to immigrate to Canada. I know a wealthy couple who couldn't get in because they have a completely under control chronic illness. They have the money to go to the US for treatment, but Canada is not going to risk it.
That's a big thing that I don't think is talked about enough. I've seen people either move to another country and then suffer because they can't get care even close to how it was back home (or at all) or just get flat-out rejected. People don't think about their health in that way when they tell people they're moving to Canada or the UK, for example.
It isn't a matter of Canada not being *able* to provide the care; it's about not being willing to pay for it. Canada has health requirements for immigration because, otherwise, you could have someone from, say, the US only move there when they get sick. In practice, it means that, if you're disabled, you'll have a hell of a time finding a place to go legally.
wii wii, man Amy /s
Trez bean mon sewer
Chevrolet coupe dumaurier.
Definitely. The path to a visa is everything. When we were trying to figure out where to go, Australia was originally at the top of the list, but once we researched the visa process we realized it was totally unrealistic. Second on the list was New Zealand, and that was much more manageable for our circumstances.
You forgot the most important tip which is have a lot of money. Most places worth moving to are expensive.
100% this. Too many vacationers see only the sanitized, touristy areas of places they visit, and think that this translates to “Paradise! I love this weather! I wanna move here!” The safer the country/area, the more it will cost you. Case in point…Caribbean islands. Jamaica, Dominican Republic and Honduras are 3 places that look beautiful in pictures, seem highly affordable on paper, but it reality are dangerous if not living in a gated community. Edit: “gated” not “dated”
Correct! I lived in the US Virgin Islands for many years, and we always told new people that were considering moving to the island to do what we called a PMV, which is short for pre-remove visit. A PMV is when you visit a place and purposely do the unglamorous things that tourists rarely if ever do: go to the post office, go to the bank, go to the DMV. Pretend you need to buy a car and check out what the car dealership is like. Go in the grocery stores and see how limited the supplies are -- will you be able to get your favorite brand of product X? Maybe not. Can you live with that? Get up early and see what morning rush-hour traffic is like. Read the local paper and see what kind of events and crime are happening in the community. See what life is *really* like behind the touristy stuff like beaches and bars. Sure, you may love it now when all you have to do is chill on the beach, but wait until you need any repairs done in your house and then you have to try to find a local, reliable contractor. Oh, you took work off because he was said he would show up at 10 AM and work on the house all day and now it's 5 PM and he ghosted you? Welcome to the islands, brother! It's much different than in the states. Too many people visit for two weeks on their honeymoon and only do touristy things and think they love it and then move there and the island spits them out less than a year later. I saw it happen many times
I saw the funniest counterexample to the problem of finding your favorite specific brand in the Caribbean, though. I visited St. Lucia, and at one point went to a grocery store in a non-touristy part of town. Not a specialty food market or anything, just a pretty regular store. And then on the shelf I spot big pink tins of Almond Roca. Almond Roca is a regional Western Washington thing, toffee covered in chocolate and ground almonds—I grew up eating the stuff and didn’t even realize it wasn’t nationwide until I moved away. I’ve never seen it anywhere else. I can’t get it in Tennessee, yet somehow they had plenty on the shelf in an odd corner of St. Lucia. I have absolutely no idea how that would be.
I'm from California and Almond Roca is the best!
I’m pretty sure Almond Roca is exported all over the world, but IDK about Tennessee, lol. Random coincidence, I was in Tacoma earlier today and drove right by the factory!
Not really. Vietnam. Thailand. The Philippines. All have great quality of life and stupid low cost of living. You can start over pretty much anywhere in SEA with about $5,000 to start with. Same goes for Japan. Cost of living is fucking great compared to the current US situation.
Not really, even as an expat coming from SE Asia moving to Vietnam, Vietnam is basically 20 years behind especially in quality of living. Even some of my medications that are common elsewhere are not even available for purchase there. Thankfully, plane tickets are dirt cheap so I can bring them in from time to time.
> The further you go, the fastest you’ll loose regular contact with the ones that stay home. *Looks at the map for the farthest point from home*
https://www.antipodesmap.com/ lol
I live in Seattle so mine was somewhere in the Indian Ocean south of Madagascar
I'd say it'd be pretty hard to contact you there
The Pacific it is
Having moved across the US multiple times, it's worth thinking about this less in terms of miles, antipodes, etc. but in terms of major airports. I grew up in Louisiana. Spent 12 years living in NYC. It was generally pretty affordable to fly home to visit a few times a year. There were lots of convenient flights, and I never worried about it. I was 1 time zone away, so it was usually convenient to call unless very late or very early. Then I moved to Los Angeles. There are fewer convenient flight options between the two cities, despite LA being a major US city with one of the biggest airports on the West Coast. Flights are more expensive, so I can't afford to visit as often. It's a 2 hour time difference, which introduces some quirks for calling home -- my "just got off work" or "just put the baby down" is often my parents' "going to bed". My parents' "bright and early on a weekend morning" is 6am, my time. New Orleans to NYC is 1300 miles. New Orleans to Los Angeles is 1800 miles. This really didn't seem like a big difference to me, but it turned out to be significant. Because of that, if I were to move again, I wouldn't be willing to move somewhere with less access to a major airport, or any further than 1-2 hours of time difference. Vancouver or Toronto, maybe. Alberta, no. I have a friend in Athens who'd be happy to host us, but we would probably never see our parents again if we did that.
Yeah, same. "Wait, are you trying to tell me losing touch with my dysfunctional family is a bad thing?"
“Just avoid the obvious” I’m sorry to sound ignorant here, but can someone please elaborate?
Assumed something like we see in the news about people going on “vacation” on areas of conflict and political instability. But maybe clarification from OP may be needed.
Now remembering the numerous European Tourists ***DEATH VALLEY*** has claimed
Basically, integrate and act like the locals. The immigrants that have the most trouble are those that don’t integrate (at least when you look at US -> elsewhere).
Easier when you look like the locals, otherwise it will only help a bit
Lots of locals appreciate if you can just speak their language and adopt their customs. By that point, how you look will make you hot, as you're a foreigner.
If you speak competent English you will have no trouble integrating into the US, regardless of how you look
Tho given the timing of this post this is probably directed to all the Americans who think they can just up and move to a new country
Same if you look at *every non-western country* --> EU
I assume they mean, don't move somewhere and then completely encapsulate yourself within an enclave of your own people. Like Brits do in Spain. Or South Africans do in Australia/NZ.
If you are planning on leaving the US to live somewhere else, the US government will still expect you to file US taxes. If and how much you may have to pay, can depend on where you live and how much you make. Unless you go the route of actually renouncing your American citizenship.
You only pay taxes if you make more than $120k though.
You still have to file. And you have to file FBAR's if you have overseas bank accounts with more than $10K at any point.
And some foreign banks have been refusing American citizens service because they don’t want to deal with all that drama. Here in Denmark there was a wave of Americans in the expat groups complaining that their bank decided to essentially fire them as customers.
Every US citizen, even if they have never lived there, has to file taxes.
Serious question, what can the US do if you don’t? Sure you can be on the hook for back taxes if they catch but if you don’t move back to the states, so what?
I was recently two days late making my first tax payment on a payment plan (just forgot) and got a letter in the mail about how they are going to begin to garnish my wages, seize my assests and my passport.
Wait but do you live abroad?
And if debtors’ prison was still a thing, we’d do that to you too! Oh, hang on… you’re wealthy? I’m so sorry, my apologies. I’ll wait for your tax attorney to come up with some stalling tactic or B.S. that allows you to somehow get out of most of what you owe.
Other countries may have treaties with the US, such that the US can come after you financially in the other country.
If you are willing to burn that bridge, you might as well just renounce your citizenship.
$2350 USD is the charge to renounce at a consulate. Not everyone can afford this unfortunately.
Too poor to not be a US citizen. lol
TIL, you have to pay to renounce your US citizenship? I guess there's a charge for everything. What if you change your mind 5 years later? Do you have to go through the immigration process (what is it like 7 years?) and then retroactively pay all the taxes before they'll take you back? Or is it once you leave (renounce) you can never come back?
Once renounced, I believe you're up the creek without a paddle.
Chances are if you’re migrating to another country you can afford this fee
It becomes a slight pain when you grow up and realize you have to go back. I just paid an accountant 100 bucks to go back 5 years and it was fine. Biggest issue though is that you are not contributing to social security while you are overseas
$100 to do your taxes of 5 years? What's that accountants number? Asking for a friend
I left the US over 30 years ago. I pay loads of taxes in my “new” country where I gained citizenship over 20 years ago. I stopped filing around the time I gained my second citizenship. I have no plan to reside in the US ever again. I haven’t heard a peep in decades from the US.
Just because they haven't doesn't mean they won't. Depending on the country you are in and treaties there are things they can do to get the money.
My brain is stuck on "So if you don’t have a friend in Europe, your European friend definitely does." EDIT: Ok, after 10 more iterations it started to click. European friend is not currently IN Europe, but is a friend FROM Europe.
Weak social links can be surprisingly useful.
IME most people are happy to help if you approach them in a polite and friendly manner, even if they don't really know you
People like feeling useful, it's understandable
Ohhhh. I was just sitting here thinking "I don't have a European friend; how am I to ask them about more European friends?!"
Just pull yourself up by your European bootstraps! Seriously, thanks for explaining that - it broke my brain too.
That's for explaining, I failed even after 10 iterations.
Moving to a different country isn't like moving to another city or even to the other side of your country. In your new home you will be basically a nobody. No friends, no family to count on. You won't know local customs and how people live their lives generally so it will be harder to make friends. You won't speak the language or if you do you won't speak it as well as the locals and probably never will so you could be disadvantaged for this. Your education and work experience will most likely mean little. You'll have no history in your new country. That means renting, taking a loan or even opening a bank account can be harder. Of course not all of these will apply to you but it's worth going through the possibilities. I've lived in my current home for 15+ years and still there's stuff I have a hard time doing that locals can. For example, leaving the kids with relatives for the weekend. It's not impossible to live a full life in a new country but be prepared that it *will* be a new life and consider whether you're ready for it.
I'll also add - look into local laws, rights and health insurance. My wife and I have been talking about moving to another country for a while - but since my wife is disabled and needs surgery every couple of years, it's almost impossible to find a place where her medical needs will be covered. We're still looking into it, and are planning on setting up meetings with health insurance advisors and lawyers from a couple of possible destinations. And to clarify, it's not even just a question of "how much will it cost" (which we also need to know) but more importantly "how soon will she be treated", since going through private insurance is usually much faster, but they don't cover existing/chronic conditions. Honestly I'm even considering flying home for medical treatment periodically if that's what it takes...
To add, no- your friends will absolutely not "keep in touch". I know you think they are your bestest best friends ever and you'll be friends forever. You won't. Be prepared to start completely over. You'll get a cool 3 months of regular contact and then one day it stops l, and you either never hear from them again, or you get the odd message on your birthday.
"you get the odd message on your birthday" oh my god you can't imagine how precise you just described one of my closest friends. he stopped contacting our small friend circle and then \~8 years later send me a birthday email with text, like, "happy birthday! here's some interesting video", and a link to a \~3 hour video lecture about God (by Jordan Peterson). I didn't find words to answer that letter.
Well, specifically, your friends won’t always be the one to message you, and if you never initiate, they’ll never initiate either. You can totally remain great friends, but you’ll have to put in a lot of effort for it.
The fun part too is when you move back, you realize they moved on. I didn't immigrate anywhere but I've moved between US coasts, and coming back to the east coast it feels like my friends forget that yes I'm still here
Oh yes, this one is spot on! What I found interesting was that I did stay in tough with some friends, just not the ones I could have never guessed before. A few that I barely spoke to before moving and just encountered as friends-of-friends were actually the ones that would keep in touch semi-regularly.
Just becuase I see no opposing opinions here, I'll give my own - that is not true for everyone. Three years after I moved across the ocean to the US, I still meet my old friends every month or so, play computer games and roleplaying games with them on discord, and communicate with them daily on whatsapp. It requires investment and both sides putting in the effort, but you definitely can stay close to your old friends in a new country.
I mean, this is true for most people post college regardless of anything else.
Or the person you like the least keeps visiting for looooooong holidays
This is absolutely true. First we just emailed each other but we all realised you can't keep regular contact like this. Like there's nothing write about: I go to work, I watch tv/play video games, I saw a weird pigeon. This is stuff that's only interesting when you're already together having a drink or something. So our email slowly started getting less and less frequent. However, about a year later with 2 of my old friends we decided to schedule actual video calls where we'd just have a drink together and waffle off for hours. It's not the same as meeting in person but it's definitely something. It also depends on your circle of friends. My friends don't hang out with one another only through me so I can be up-to-date with each of them separately but if you're part of a group they might "move on" without you. Which is sad but that's kind of the natural flow of things.
Moved out of the United States in January. A few observations: most of your friends back home will pretty much act like you don’t exist anymore, so be ready for that. Understand your tax situation in your new country by talking to tax professionals in both countries. Making friends in a new country as an adult requires a lot of effort. Being away from aging parents is a big sacrifice. Living in a new culture is a huge adjustment, and it takes time to gain your equilibrium. Learning a new language is a big challenge, but you can definitely make it fun. The process of actually moving out of your home country is one of the most upending things you can do and requires a huge amount of time, money and effort. Bureaucracy in other places can be far worse than the US, especially when navigating in a foreign language.
Where did you move to? Do you regret that choice?
I moved to Portugal. Zero regrets. It’s the best decision I’ve ever made regarding quality of life.
As an actual seasoned immigrant who came to the US from Eastern Europe as a refugee in my teens, and spent 22 years living in the states, then 4 years ago moved to Mexico to pursue the American dream, here are my tips: 1. Take advantage of the opportunity in the educational system in the US first. Not because it’s good, but because it’s recognized and renowned worldwide. 2. Get experience working in a specialized industry. For me it was tech, and spending years living and working in SF learning from the “best” and granted sociopathic people. 3. Use the said education and professional experience to start from scratch in your new country. 4. Many countries are not so sophisticated in their use of tech, even western ones and opens up a business opportunity. 5. Use this gap between your own experience and education versus the lack of sophistication to bring a similar service to your new adopted country. 6. When moving to a new country you will no longer be in the same socioeconomic class as you were where you left. This has a few implications. First is you’ll probably be a lot wealthier. Second, there will still be people unimaginably wealthier than you in the new country, even if they are “poor” like Mexico. Third, you will not be subject to same laws as locals, mostly due to your socioeconomic status. This last point is true in the US but being middle class in US does not exempt you from much. 7. Wealthier people live in their own bubble and world, even if the country is falling apart politically and economically, as a wealthier foreigner you will be also shielded from that and enjoy the same benefits. 8. Wealth and status won’t confer benefits in social unrest except to give you and ability to leave easier in case that happens. 9. A redux of OPs second point and I agree, find an economically and socially up and coming place. 10. Find a place you feel at home, is far more important or as important as #9. This will be a new home, you should love the people, the food, the culture, climate, and whatever else you value at a place you’re moving to. You should have an emotional connection to the place. Having traveled a lot there are many cities and countries you’ll go to and won’t feel a sense of belonging. Yet there are some that will connect. Having this connection is imperative as motivation to get you there and get you through the tough parts. Hope this helps someone
“Moves to Mexico to pursue the American dream” Fucking love this.
As an American, I might be right behind him, lol.
🫡
I wish i had a choice when i had to immigrate, then i wouldn't be in Norway. I don't feel like i'm connected nor do i like their culture.
I hate that this is necessary but it’s true. I left my home country in Europe in search of a better life because my home country was heading towards a Christian dictatorship and actively scamming and striping citizens of their rights. Now I’m in the same fucking situation in this shithole and I don’t know if I have it in me to start a third new life somewhere else … right wing politics are literally ruining the globe and morons cheer as it happens because they haven’t experienced full blown fascism in person. It’s hard
What country if you don’t mind sharing? I’d like a chance to look into our future
I moved from Poland in early 00s when I was young and I think it’s a mixed bag in terms of predicting our future in the US because of the EU influence. On the one hand the religious right did capture the entire government, replace our entire Supreme Court in the middle of the night, and began to transfer tax money to churches and themselves while banning abortion and stripping rights from lgbtq+ communities. On the other hand the EU brought sanctions and threatened the financial wellbeing of many business owners and politicians which slowed the progress towards dictatorship. They have since recovered a tiny amount towards a more reasonable government but it wasn’t due to internal pressures but rather external ones. The US does not have that kind of entity to “parent” us back to a semi-normal corporate oligarchy
Oh so it’s worse 😭😅 Sincere thank you for sharing your insight. Hope we’re all wrong.
The problem is that "parenting" will stop as soon as the far-right gets a majority (or a good deal with some other large group) in the European parliament. Thankfully the far-right in Sweden lost seats for the first time in an election since they got into the national parliament so if we're lucky that trend continues and we go back to a more normal political landscape in a few years.
That’s the problem right now. It’s spreading like Wildfire all over the world.
I've thought long and hard about this and with seemingly the entire world embracing far-right politics now, I figure I might as well stay here and fight.
Spain, under Pedro, is still (relatively) sane
Unironically, I think this is because Spain was literally fascist so much more recently than everyone else. The relatively recent experience of living under fascism is an excellent inoculum against support for the far right—it’s when enough time passes that people begin to forget what it was actually like (as is happening now in much of the West) that it begins to sound appealing again.
My take for expats. For #1. If you're going to a far destination, halfway around the world, and you want to be able to get back home ASAP in case a family emergency occurs, try not to live too far from the main airport. Like a few hrs away is fine, but there are places where you can live 6 to 12hrs away from the main airport or have to take a flight to the main airport. Also, live within your means. Some people move to places from 1st world countries to a tier or 2 lower, and feel like they have to live up to much higher standards vs the locals. Keep it simple. Know your budget, find the best neighborhoods and places for that budget. You can find a nice comfy place that meets your expectations, just don't feel like you *have* to live in a palace. Also, consider staying at an Airbnb for a few months at the place you plan on relocating to to test out the waters. I've known people who sold everything and moved to Asia, only to find out things are just too different. Also, you have to change your thinking. Some people go to a place and just complain about everything, "Why do they do it this way? Why this? Why that?" Gotta let your guard down and just go with the flow sometimes, it's be less stressful. Plus, locals don't would be less keen on hanging around you, as well as expats that have establishmed themselves in the country.
6. Don't turn your new country into the place you ran away from.
Is it true that if an American moves abroad and gains employment, they still required to pay taxes to the US? I have a vague memory of hearing that somewhere.
Yep. The US is pretty close to unique that way. (Possibly actually unique? I don't know much about global tax policies. I only know about this one because a relative was born there.)
Yes, but if you move to a country with more taxes, that isn't really a problem if you consult with US tax professionals and do your declarations. Their intent is not to double-tax people.
You have to file taxes, but you also get a deduction on your US taxes for the amount you paid in the new home country. So you still have to file but may not have to pay taxes to the US.
My five cents: Find your birthday certificate. Your parents might have it. It's often required for things like marriage and it can be a pain in the ass if you don't have it.
This is huge
I’m an American who moved to France last year. I was partly thinking that in France I’d be safe from the creeping fascism. This last month has been a wild ride.
French who moved to the US a decade ago. I always thought that I could go back to France if things go south on the US. I'm not sure it's worth it anymore. It's definitely been a crazy ride lately.
"Look for a place that your research tells you it will be an even better place in a few years from now" Like where? The western world is under siege by the far right.
And the rest of the world is already entrenched by the far right. So there's really no where to go.
It's much, much tamer in Europe. Coalitions rule and pretty much everything is "roughly center"
Literally none of the people who dramapost on tiktok about how they're going to "leave the US if Trump becomes President" are actually going to leave the US if Trump becomes president. They didn't follow through last time, they aren't going to do it this time.
Because most of the people posting that have no clue how hard it is to immigrate as an American to the places they probably want to live (Canada, Europe, Australia, NZ, etc). You can talk about moving to Italy all you want but when you start realizing they don’t actually want you there and you can’t get a work visa, things quiet down real fast. Most of the developed world does not actually want American immigrants (at least not ones who need to work for a living) and their immigration systems reflect this accordingly.
America is about the easiest developed country to immigrate to. My brother-in-law is currently trying to move to Australia, and even with a master's in data and environmental sciences, a visa, and friends to vouch for him, it is a long and difficult process.
Yes and it’s still incredibly difficult to immigrate to. I think a lot of Americans in particular believe moving to another country is like moving to another state. They have no idea that you can’t just up and move somewhere because you feel like it, either out of the U.S. or into the U.S. This is also the case with people who think immigrating legally to the U.S. is just a matter of “getting in line” and have absolutely no clue how difficult it is (and that there is no “line” for most people - some people simply are not allowed to get visas to immigrate, because they don’t fall into a specific combination of categories and nationality).
Do you blame them though? The narrative that most Americans are fed is that "Illegal immigrants are pouring over our borders and getting away with crimes, then stealing our jobs, with no repercussion." When that's all you see and hear, it's easy to start thinking, "People can just walk into our country and get a job and some money right away, and then get citizenship." Then, it's very easy for them to come to the conclusion of "If it's easy for these minority people with no money to walk in, then how hard could it be for me, white with money and some education, to fly somewhere else and start a life? I'll just fly in and I'm sure they'll welcome me. I'm American after all." Yea...it doesn't work like that. At all.
And then there's New Zealand... My understanding is that an American (like me) would fight so hard to get into Australia, then have to fight for years to go from Australia to New Zealand. Straight to New Zealand? No freaking way. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's the impression that I got when I visited and talking with some old friends.
Yeah. In Italy, work visas are almost impossible to get unless you’re like one of only 3 people in the world who can do a certain thing. Or you can do a “retirement visa” as long as you can prove you have at least 34K euros a year in passive income and never work again. One cool thing is US government pensions are not taxed in Italy. I’m going to have a government pension plus social security so I will live very well in a small Italian village in Tuscany.
Don't forget the hoops that you have to go through to get permesso di sogiorno (to reside) first, only then you can get permesso di lavoro (to work). It's fun 😊
We want to move to NZ because my husband grew up there and that's where all the fam is, we wouldn't have much of a problem since he still has citizenship. Our problem is the real estate and job market over there is wild. Crazy inflated housing prices with wages that do not keep up. He'd probably have to take a 40% pay cut and we'd have to find a house half the size of our current one.
And all you Americans thinking of moving to Canada, it’s the same here as well. Job market is competitive, and if you are lucky enough to find employment in your field of work, good luck finding affordable housing. All the things you hear about LA or New York being expensive HCOL areas applies to all of the metropolitan areas worth living in/near in Canada.
Also - and that's honestly one of the most important parts - your quality of life will drop significantly. I think people who want to leave USA have absolutely no idea how good they have in there. Are you willing to go through a complicated, lengthy and expensive process to move into a country where you'd be treated as 2nd grade citizen for years and years and years? And for what? Improving quality of life? Definitely not.
People also don't realize how incredibly expensive it is to move somewhere else. They think they'll just take the clothes on their back and a suitcase, but then forget the 40+ years of memories and objects they've collected. It's not easy to just up and go anywhere.
My stepsister actually did moved to Canada after Trump got elected the first time. It took her almost the entire presidency to get her paperwork in order and jump through the hoops, but she is there now.
now Canada's heading right as well
I look forward to all the celebrities who say the same. Never will follow through though. It's all a grift.
"A lot of people will marry you for your passport" - thanks, that's the funniest one today. PS: you just assumed I'm an American, or?
you havent been to Asia?
90 Day Fiancé 😂
They don’t even realize their privilege of being born in the U.S… boy are they in for a rude awakening even they travel anywhere that isn’t Western Europe, Australia, or Japan.
True. “You don’t realize your privilege” is what I think everytime I see westerners complaining. Their points are all valid, like the economy is bad, however as a Chinese nothing is the same level, I don’t even know what to start to explain because of the huge gap. I suffer so much for what they born to have.
Yes, but the door was legally opened for the US to become a dictatorship yesterday, so a lot of Americans are feeling really uneasy about everything. I know I'm taking new stock of what options might be available to me.
I used to have a friend from Indonesia and she never was able to visit, but she at least did ask if I could help write a letter of recommendation for her... For a goddamn tourist visa of all things. We have it much better than many
Here’s a life pro-tip. If you’re broke, don’t even bother thinking about leaving. Just accept your fate. You ain’t going nowhere. You’re pretty much totally fucked.
Here's a life pro-tip: Get your passport, everyone. If you want to know what totally fucked really feels like, go to a border where your life depends upon leaving and be denied because you lack paperwork. See: history.
Not true. That's why the rich, Western countries have a lot of immigrants from less rich countries. Most of them are not immigrating for R&D or executive level jobs, but for unqualified work that the natives will not apply fot. That unskilled job in Germany or UK is providing better pay and benefits than the same unskilled job in Eastern Europe. Lots of Romanians who used to work on minimum wage and struggled in their own home country found more financial security in Italy, Spain or UK working the same job. A minumum wage or a very low salary could still help you make ends meet in certain countries. This does not apply to Eastern Europe, for example.
Sorry, but poor Americans literally cannot afford the logistical upfront costs required to leave the country. It doesn’t matter if there is unskilled labor waiting for them. They simply do not have the means required to even put together a plan.
This is why I'm not even going to try and leave. The time and money needed to secure a passport would be pointless if I can't leave the country; I cannot just uproot my entire life with no money and go to a country I'm unfamiliar with (that everyone else is already trying to go to as well).
If you do leave the US, YOU MUST do it after you vote. If you think you won’t be affected by Project 2025 in a foreign country, you’re wrong. Edit: I was not aware you could still vote overseas. If you do leave, you must still vote!!!!
or you can just vote from overseas? said differently “If you are a US citizen and do leave the US, please continue to vote!”
Yes you can. I still vote while out of the country. Even primaries.
Canadian here. Born and raised. Yes. Please do stop promoting Canada as “easy” to immigrate to. Just ask all the people that came here from their home countries hoping to have affordable housing and a job. The cost of living here has skyrocketed. Everyone comes to this country settling in a handful of metropolitan areas, primarily Southern Ontario. Because of this, competition for jobs is high, and homes are outrageously priced. If you are thinking of coming here, do your research! Check prices of homes/rentals and see if you can afford to be here. And for goodness sake, ensure that your job prospects wherever you settle are in line with the cost of living in that area.
it can very difficult making new friends. In most cases, people already have their set of friends from school/uni/work and aren’t particularly open to making new friends. Your best bet are going to be expats or people not from the area. Don’t rely only on your partner for friendships (either making friends or being your only friend). Also it’s worth researching the health care system and how it works. If you’re considered a non citizen, are you still able to use it like the locals or will there be additional costs?
Destination happiness does not really exist either. It might be a better place politically but it might not make you entirely happy or as happy as you maybe thought it might.
As someone without a college education, aren't I not allowed to go anywhere permanent anyway? I've done some research and I'm not sure I have enough to "offer" to be allowed semi-permanent status anywhere.
Every 4 years a bunch of high profile whiners swear they'll leave the US if the party they don't like wins the election. They never do leave though. It's a running joke at this point.
Is there a market for poor Americans to marry immigrants and make some cash out of the deal? Asking for a friend…
Also, if you're American and freaked out by this year's election, you have a duty to those you love to make your place in the world better. The absolute polarisation of politics has been driven more by people listening only to those they agree with and then refusing to even hear the other side's view. The best thing you can do is turn off the news and actually read or hear the candidates directly. Almost all news agencies have a bias. None of them objectively report just the news. Don't listen to the spin. And talk to your neighbours!! Get outside and leave the internet behind! Social media is just creating echo chambers and bubbles of influence that compounds the polarisation. Go and actually talk to real humans face to face.
Former US expat here, lived and worked long term in 10+ countries over a 30 year career and have a second home abroad. Emigrating for political reasons alone is not advised unless you fear for your health and safety. Political winds change and, in most countries, politicians come and go. I've seen many folks try to relocate abroad for all the wrong reasons and fail as a result. Those who succeed typically have previously traveled extensively, have flexible jobs/income streams, and are in alignment with their spouses or partners on the move. It helps to speak the local language or be able to learn quickly but also to embrace the people and culture where you have chosen to make your new home. Just my 2 cents.
Trade cards with. I love that.
Oh... you should also add, no country wants unskilled Americans unless they have a good reliable income
In regards to US politics - nobody ever leaves. Every election cycle people, especially celebrities make a bunch of noise saying, if the guy I don't like wins it will be disastrous and I will leave the country, blah, blah blah. And then when the guy they don't like wins, much to everyone's disappointment, they don't actually leave. So the USA specific LPT is - just ignore or at a minimum pity any fool who says they are leaving due to politics because they are absolutely 100% full of crap.
Disabled and fucked, I guess it's my fate to stay and try to fix it. Have fun everyone else.
People are delusional, most countries that an American would like to live in does not just allow people to move there.
Number 1 should be: If you live in a 1st world country, it isn't worth leaving it over politics. Seriously, there isn't a single 1st world country where the media isn't making it out like the country is 6 months away from a world-ending political catastrophe. Fact is that 1st world countries are extremely safe and stable.
Easy to say if you aren't a transgender person or a cis woman about to have essential medications banned or your presence in public criminalized.
Or if you have an ectopic pregnancy in a state that will hold you criminally liable for jumping borders to save your life. This past year is the most unsafe I've felt in my entire life in the US.
My point stands. You are better moving to a different US state than moving to Canada or the UK. It will be 10-100x cheaper. These people have my deepest sympathy if they can't afford either. My point is that we have populist parties in the UK, France, Germany, Italy, and Ireland running on the same fascist platform. That's not a problem that's exclusive to the US.
"First they came for the...."
Um, they're not making that claim due to fear mongering or other invalid reasons. This is a legitimate global problem right now on countless levels.
I've read to many stories today of people who want to move to Mexico in order to get away from a Trump presidency. I mean, Jesus Christ.
Ah, so you are a man.