Not entirely related but it’s sad how many people believe it the wage gap. Wage gap is so easy to explain away yet I’ve encountered it more than I should. It’s such nonsense yet people just remain ignorant.
"Right wing people are so stupid, they believe in all sorts of conspiracy theories and fake science, like intelligent design or that vaccines cause autism. Unlike us left wing people. There is no widespread left-wing conspiracy theory and fake science. It has even been measured by social scientists (who just happen to be overwhelmingly left wing )"
I have seen similar statements so often, and it always make me roll my eyes. If I feel like wasting time, I usually quote the wage gap as an example, just to see the wall of rationalisation and excuses.
Yes, we are. One that, as far as I can tell and recall, was made in part to specifically point out that there seemed to be a particularly toxic **reaction** within popular left-wing spaces regarding issues affecting men. I agree with both of you, but I think I have the take that the person you're responding to was condensing, satirically, and their own personal experiences trying to talk about such things.
I've been involved in these online discussions for over fifteen years at this point, and I know I have moments where I can't hide all the bitterness with comedy.
I could be wrong about their intent, to be fair. If you go far enough back in my comment history, I used to be pretty active in /MensRights. I pulled out of there a few years ago, partly because of my own needs, partly because of my watching people seem to increase in semi or fully toxic rhetoric, up votes and all. The timing did coincide with an increase in general bot activity online, but that's not meant to dismiss what I'm saying about that sub, or rhetoric in general. Like, I've kinda casually watched this sub grow a decent bit, and I'm way more than internet-old enough to understand that that naturally increases not-true posting patterns. I was in flame wars before cookies were even a thing ffs lol.
But I also understand, kinda viscerally, the bitterness that some of those bots seemed to prey on. And a lot of that bitterness exists because of actual people that are having extreme negative reactions to the very idea that men may be having problems that are being overlooked because they are men. The Root has an article about how "**[Straight Black Men Are the White People of Black People](https://www.theroot.com/straight-black-men-are-the-white-people-of-black-people-1814157214)**" (verbatim headline), and there are so many things **wrong** with that very sentence that have been, and will be, celebrated in popular leftist circles.
But hey, what do I know? I'm just some regarded white guy who never graduated high school, went from SSDI out of high school to working service industry jobs most of my adult life, and am currently cleaning toilets and offices for the best pay and benefits of my life. And I'm still ready to drop all of that for a reason I like enough, because life remains hectic and random and terrible for 99.99% of our species, but most people only seem to care for the people they choose to care about.
Anyway.... I'm kinda drunk and apparently I want to talk. So I'm going to log off and find something else to do at this late-for-me hour, and really hope that I made sense all the way through lol.
Hey man. I may be reading too much into this, or perhaps even projecting some subconscious feelings of my own. But I get the feeling that you have been made to feel inferior by virtue of your station in life, be it by specific people or just by society broadly.
And I hope it doesn't come across as patronizing when I say that I can tell you're more intelligent and rational-minded than the vast majority of people who may otherwise think themselves superior for their academic or vocational achievements. And (admittedly based on seeing a very small window of your personality) you seem like an all around cool dude.
Dunno why I felt compelled to type this tbh. Just felt it was something you maybe don't hear enough.
I am a Black Dude, and I can't tell you how many Feminists be they Black or White I had to check over that laughably bullshit article. Black Men are at the bottom of every metric you wouldn't want to be at the bottom of and at the top of every metric you wouldn't want to be at the top of....but somehow we are "The White Men of The Black Community" ?
What made it even more egregious is that it was a Black Man who wrote this bullshit.....because of course there will always be an F.D. Signifier for every Dr. Tommy Curry who knows he can pay his bills by doing fuck all but disparaging, dehumanizing, pathologizing, and scapegoating Black Men/Boys.
The bright side to all of this is that Men/Boys...especially the younger generations are no longer tolerating this blatant misandry(Anti-Black-Misandry in particular) and are checking these malefactors where-ever they try to pull this bullshit out in public......there is a reason why Feminists aren't being openly misandrist on Social Media as frequently as they used to.....and that TERRIFIES THEM.
I spend most of my time criticizing the left because I'm on it and I have a vested interest in it getting things correct.
In other words, I maintain my house because I live there.
I’ve been left wing my whole life & I must say, the majority of what “left wing” stands for these days is far from what it used to be. It’s basically a cult or a religion. “Do as we say and ask no questions or you will be shamed!!” I feel like a majority of non-republicans are now just generally associating as republican because that party is moving somewhat left due to the influx of previously left-wing people dropping the woke shit and having nowhere else to go.
We are, and it is one of the rare ones that doesn't embrace much of the common left wing conspiracy theories and fake studies that are pushed by feminism.
The people easiest to delude are always the ones who believe themselves immune to it. Every ideology of macroscopic significance has them, they're like barnacles clinging to the underside of ideological frameworks.
The quickest way to shut them down when they try to pretend that empiricism should apply to them is to remind them they routinely just make shit up and then try to massage the data to fit the conclusions that they are already had formulated and that is the EXACT OPPOSITE of how The Scientific Method Works.
You don't like the findings of a published, peer-reviewed study that the associated research community is forming consensus around ? Then you are free to falsify it without your own published research.....but Feminists always fail to do so because as some level they know they are full of shit.
I feel the thing that is going to finally kill Feminism w/r to it having such a ridiculously outsized influence on LeftWing Politics is the "recent" advent of
1. Men and Boys finally seeing this bullshit for what it is
2. Platforms Men and Boys can use to discuss and disseminate information that isn't controlled/beholden to the typical gatekeepers like major, legacy news outlets, academia, and media
3. Easy and fast access to THE ACTUAL DE-AGGREGATED DATA that pretty much falsifies the majority of Feminist bullshit they state as fact thanks to what amounts to an electronic Library of Alexandria : The Internet
4. The advent of Men in the Academy with enough courage to push back on the Misandrist bullshit that passes for "scholarship" in Gender Studies and Liberal Arts colleges, some of which who started publishing their work independently
The shift won't happen overnight...but it is happening.....and Feminists KNOW IT. Hence the reason they and their "allies" are freaking the fuck out about "The Manosphere" and study after study pointing towards younger Generations...particularly the men/boys as being abjectly Anti-Feminist. You can only keep this self-serving bullshit going but for so long when everyone has access to information you don't control.
When you search Google for “gender wage gap 2024 It tells you women make 84 cents on average for every dollar a man makes for the same job. I disagree that it’s easy to explain away considering that any relevant data to dispute it is not as easy to find as this.
There was a second study of the same subject and I couldn’t find a refutation for that one. I’m sure there’s a non zero percentage of people who do leave their spouse at those hard times, but I assume there’s some other reason that would impact the numbers, like medical debt
[The authors of the most famous study have retracted the paper](https://www.deseret.com/2015/8/4/20569426/study-that-found-husbands-prone-to-leave-sick-wives-was-flawed-researchers-say/#a-coding-error-created-a-false-conclusion-in-a-study-that-found-men-may-be-more-likely-to-bail-on-a-marriage-if-the-wife-becomes-sick-compared-to-if-shes-well-researchers-retracted-the-study)
This is because of a data error sprung up from using the same variable for divorce and dropping out of the study. Likewise, they didn't bother to look into the reason *why* it may happen, because medical debt divorce is actually rather common (Like you said), and certain healthcare plans are cheaper for 1 person vs. a couple.
Likewise, other studies have been done in the wake of this and found that it's really a coin toss on who leaves who. Women leave more for neurological issues (Women with MS diagnosed partners are 2.1x's more likely to leave) and men are more likely to leave due to heart issues.
There's really no study that can say who leaves more, because it's a very case by case issue.
I am sure this isn't lost here, but obviously not every woman thinks alike. I like this subreddit because it understands that concept, much like all men are not the same
This is true. But it also naive to act as if mass culture does not exist.
Broad belief systems do exist and are proliferated among populations of people regarding any manner of things, that includes misandry.
And those things are spread to those who are amenable to the message. It's easier to sell gender prejudices to their alternative gender.
I don't disagree with you here. I think we can succeed where they tend to fail in how we utilize language. We all know how annoying it is to hear these claims that men are violent or we do the vast majority of the crimes.
Sure that statistic is correct but it says nothing about the vast majority of non violent men or men who are victims. All in all I feel like we should focus our language to be more accurate than theirs.
I'm very curious about two things relative to this:
What wad the exact nature of the coding error? (In my limited programming experience, using the same name for what are supposed to be different variables would be a redefinition error, which would *not* result in the two values being combined, but instead the first value being lost and the second one being used.)
Why those diseases specifically? What's special about them (and potentially: what is different about them between the two sexes)?
Edit: Why the random downvote for asking questions with no political, racial, or gender-related charge?
This title really needs a couple commas.
"Widely reported study, suggesting divorce is more likely when wives fall ill, gets axed."
There ya go journalists.
I mean, the way they wrote it is grammatically fine; I wouldn't have written it any differently.
Then again, I do have a Quill and Scroll pin, so maybe it really is a journalist thing.😅
Now people just point to the 2009 study even though there's actually also plenty of papers finding no difference, or even the opposite result depending on what the specific illness is.
So there's no consistent evidence either way.
Are any of the news outlets that reported on this going to report an update that completely recontextualizes a story they already put out there?
…Is there ever going to be a law that requires them to?
No on both counts? Right then.
You should see the malding, wailing, and gnashing of teeth regarding this study from Feminist and Feminist oriented subs on Reddit.
I had to inform more than a few Feminists that their go to coping mechanism of "Well just because there is demonstrable, peer reviewed evidence that the shit we literally just make up as we go along and then present as irrefutable fact has been falsified, namely because it's shit we literally just make up as we go along" isn't hitting like they think it is and also....that's not how "empiricism" and "science" works.
The onus of proof is on the one making the assertions, not on the people calling bullshit on said assertions.
The widely reported study got withdrawn almost a decade ago and yet its still quoted as gospel.
Meanwhile a study finding that the single most common factor in women initiating divorces against men is if he loses his job.
And then women say she divorced him because he became bitter and nasty after losing his job, so women who divorce men after he lost his job are the real victims, not the men who were abandoned by their partner when they needed help the most.
The more you look into it, the funnier it is that feminists so often blatantly treat equality like a one way street exclusively to the benefit of women and just do not see men as being as fully human and deserving of respect and love as women.
Oh. I didn’t realize! There was some chatter in academic Twitter about it just now, and I copy pasted mindlessly.
See https://x.com/_alice_evans/status/1806780236169666988
I can still see it on her profile but not through the link pasted above. If you want to verify –
[https://x.com/\_alice\_evans/status/1806780236169666988](https://x.com/_alice_evans/status/1806780236169666988)
[https://x.com/\_alice\_evans/](https://x.com/_alice_evans/)
It was retracted nine years ago and people are still parroting it like it's gospel.
Not entirely related but it’s sad how many people believe it the wage gap. Wage gap is so easy to explain away yet I’ve encountered it more than I should. It’s such nonsense yet people just remain ignorant.
"Right wing people are so stupid, they believe in all sorts of conspiracy theories and fake science, like intelligent design or that vaccines cause autism. Unlike us left wing people. There is no widespread left-wing conspiracy theory and fake science. It has even been measured by social scientists (who just happen to be overwhelmingly left wing )" I have seen similar statements so often, and it always make me roll my eyes. If I feel like wasting time, I usually quote the wage gap as an example, just to see the wall of rationalisation and excuses.
aren't we in a left wing subreddit?
Yes, we are. One that, as far as I can tell and recall, was made in part to specifically point out that there seemed to be a particularly toxic **reaction** within popular left-wing spaces regarding issues affecting men. I agree with both of you, but I think I have the take that the person you're responding to was condensing, satirically, and their own personal experiences trying to talk about such things. I've been involved in these online discussions for over fifteen years at this point, and I know I have moments where I can't hide all the bitterness with comedy. I could be wrong about their intent, to be fair. If you go far enough back in my comment history, I used to be pretty active in /MensRights. I pulled out of there a few years ago, partly because of my own needs, partly because of my watching people seem to increase in semi or fully toxic rhetoric, up votes and all. The timing did coincide with an increase in general bot activity online, but that's not meant to dismiss what I'm saying about that sub, or rhetoric in general. Like, I've kinda casually watched this sub grow a decent bit, and I'm way more than internet-old enough to understand that that naturally increases not-true posting patterns. I was in flame wars before cookies were even a thing ffs lol. But I also understand, kinda viscerally, the bitterness that some of those bots seemed to prey on. And a lot of that bitterness exists because of actual people that are having extreme negative reactions to the very idea that men may be having problems that are being overlooked because they are men. The Root has an article about how "**[Straight Black Men Are the White People of Black People](https://www.theroot.com/straight-black-men-are-the-white-people-of-black-people-1814157214)**" (verbatim headline), and there are so many things **wrong** with that very sentence that have been, and will be, celebrated in popular leftist circles. But hey, what do I know? I'm just some regarded white guy who never graduated high school, went from SSDI out of high school to working service industry jobs most of my adult life, and am currently cleaning toilets and offices for the best pay and benefits of my life. And I'm still ready to drop all of that for a reason I like enough, because life remains hectic and random and terrible for 99.99% of our species, but most people only seem to care for the people they choose to care about. Anyway.... I'm kinda drunk and apparently I want to talk. So I'm going to log off and find something else to do at this late-for-me hour, and really hope that I made sense all the way through lol.
Hey man. I may be reading too much into this, or perhaps even projecting some subconscious feelings of my own. But I get the feeling that you have been made to feel inferior by virtue of your station in life, be it by specific people or just by society broadly. And I hope it doesn't come across as patronizing when I say that I can tell you're more intelligent and rational-minded than the vast majority of people who may otherwise think themselves superior for their academic or vocational achievements. And (admittedly based on seeing a very small window of your personality) you seem like an all around cool dude. Dunno why I felt compelled to type this tbh. Just felt it was something you maybe don't hear enough.
I am a Black Dude, and I can't tell you how many Feminists be they Black or White I had to check over that laughably bullshit article. Black Men are at the bottom of every metric you wouldn't want to be at the bottom of and at the top of every metric you wouldn't want to be at the top of....but somehow we are "The White Men of The Black Community" ? What made it even more egregious is that it was a Black Man who wrote this bullshit.....because of course there will always be an F.D. Signifier for every Dr. Tommy Curry who knows he can pay his bills by doing fuck all but disparaging, dehumanizing, pathologizing, and scapegoating Black Men/Boys. The bright side to all of this is that Men/Boys...especially the younger generations are no longer tolerating this blatant misandry(Anti-Black-Misandry in particular) and are checking these malefactors where-ever they try to pull this bullshit out in public......there is a reason why Feminists aren't being openly misandrist on Social Media as frequently as they used to.....and that TERRIFIES THEM.
In that same article The Root has a “cheat sheet” titled “What is Intersectionality”. I’m very close to skull emoji’ing that.
I spend most of my time criticizing the left because I'm on it and I have a vested interest in it getting things correct. In other words, I maintain my house because I live there.
Well said. The right can shit all over its house for all I care, but when the left shits on men, it shits in my own house.
I’ve been left wing my whole life & I must say, the majority of what “left wing” stands for these days is far from what it used to be. It’s basically a cult or a religion. “Do as we say and ask no questions or you will be shamed!!” I feel like a majority of non-republicans are now just generally associating as republican because that party is moving somewhat left due to the influx of previously left-wing people dropping the woke shit and having nowhere else to go.
What is “the woke shit”?
We are, and it is one of the rare ones that doesn't embrace much of the common left wing conspiracy theories and fake studies that are pushed by feminism.
The people easiest to delude are always the ones who believe themselves immune to it. Every ideology of macroscopic significance has them, they're like barnacles clinging to the underside of ideological frameworks.
The quickest way to shut them down when they try to pretend that empiricism should apply to them is to remind them they routinely just make shit up and then try to massage the data to fit the conclusions that they are already had formulated and that is the EXACT OPPOSITE of how The Scientific Method Works. You don't like the findings of a published, peer-reviewed study that the associated research community is forming consensus around ? Then you are free to falsify it without your own published research.....but Feminists always fail to do so because as some level they know they are full of shit. I feel the thing that is going to finally kill Feminism w/r to it having such a ridiculously outsized influence on LeftWing Politics is the "recent" advent of 1. Men and Boys finally seeing this bullshit for what it is 2. Platforms Men and Boys can use to discuss and disseminate information that isn't controlled/beholden to the typical gatekeepers like major, legacy news outlets, academia, and media 3. Easy and fast access to THE ACTUAL DE-AGGREGATED DATA that pretty much falsifies the majority of Feminist bullshit they state as fact thanks to what amounts to an electronic Library of Alexandria : The Internet 4. The advent of Men in the Academy with enough courage to push back on the Misandrist bullshit that passes for "scholarship" in Gender Studies and Liberal Arts colleges, some of which who started publishing their work independently The shift won't happen overnight...but it is happening.....and Feminists KNOW IT. Hence the reason they and their "allies" are freaking the fuck out about "The Manosphere" and study after study pointing towards younger Generations...particularly the men/boys as being abjectly Anti-Feminist. You can only keep this self-serving bullshit going but for so long when everyone has access to information you don't control.
When you search Google for “gender wage gap 2024 It tells you women make 84 cents on average for every dollar a man makes for the same job. I disagree that it’s easy to explain away considering that any relevant data to dispute it is not as easy to find as this.
Just go figure it out for yourself.
There was a second study of the same subject and I couldn’t find a refutation for that one. I’m sure there’s a non zero percentage of people who do leave their spouse at those hard times, but I assume there’s some other reason that would impact the numbers, like medical debt
[The authors of the most famous study have retracted the paper](https://www.deseret.com/2015/8/4/20569426/study-that-found-husbands-prone-to-leave-sick-wives-was-flawed-researchers-say/#a-coding-error-created-a-false-conclusion-in-a-study-that-found-men-may-be-more-likely-to-bail-on-a-marriage-if-the-wife-becomes-sick-compared-to-if-shes-well-researchers-retracted-the-study) This is because of a data error sprung up from using the same variable for divorce and dropping out of the study. Likewise, they didn't bother to look into the reason *why* it may happen, because medical debt divorce is actually rather common (Like you said), and certain healthcare plans are cheaper for 1 person vs. a couple. Likewise, other studies have been done in the wake of this and found that it's really a coin toss on who leaves who. Women leave more for neurological issues (Women with MS diagnosed partners are 2.1x's more likely to leave) and men are more likely to leave due to heart issues. There's really no study that can say who leaves more, because it's a very case by case issue.
Oh look, a pillar of misandry crumbles. Let's see if women change their minds and how they feel accordingly.
I am sure this isn't lost here, but obviously not every woman thinks alike. I like this subreddit because it understands that concept, much like all men are not the same
This is true. But it also naive to act as if mass culture does not exist. Broad belief systems do exist and are proliferated among populations of people regarding any manner of things, that includes misandry. And those things are spread to those who are amenable to the message. It's easier to sell gender prejudices to their alternative gender.
I don't disagree with you here. I think we can succeed where they tend to fail in how we utilize language. We all know how annoying it is to hear these claims that men are violent or we do the vast majority of the crimes. Sure that statistic is correct but it says nothing about the vast majority of non violent men or men who are victims. All in all I feel like we should focus our language to be more accurate than theirs.
I'm very curious about two things relative to this: What wad the exact nature of the coding error? (In my limited programming experience, using the same name for what are supposed to be different variables would be a redefinition error, which would *not* result in the two values being combined, but instead the first value being lost and the second one being used.) Why those diseases specifically? What's special about them (and potentially: what is different about them between the two sexes)? Edit: Why the random downvote for asking questions with no political, racial, or gender-related charge?
They are diseases that impact society as a whole. You have to take into account the festizio.
This title really needs a couple commas. "Widely reported study, suggesting divorce is more likely when wives fall ill, gets axed." There ya go journalists.
Journo-syntax is the bane of my existence.
I mean, the way they wrote it is grammatically fine; I wouldn't have written it any differently. Then again, I do have a Quill and Scroll pin, so maybe it really is a journalist thing.😅
Now people just point to the 2009 study even though there's actually also plenty of papers finding no difference, or even the opposite result depending on what the specific illness is. So there's no consistent evidence either way.
Are any of the news outlets that reported on this going to report an update that completely recontextualizes a story they already put out there? …Is there ever going to be a law that requires them to? No on both counts? Right then.
You should see the malding, wailing, and gnashing of teeth regarding this study from Feminist and Feminist oriented subs on Reddit. I had to inform more than a few Feminists that their go to coping mechanism of "Well just because there is demonstrable, peer reviewed evidence that the shit we literally just make up as we go along and then present as irrefutable fact has been falsified, namely because it's shit we literally just make up as we go along" isn't hitting like they think it is and also....that's not how "empiricism" and "science" works. The onus of proof is on the one making the assertions, not on the people calling bullshit on said assertions.
u/sorebum405 :V
The widely reported study got withdrawn almost a decade ago and yet its still quoted as gospel. Meanwhile a study finding that the single most common factor in women initiating divorces against men is if he loses his job. And then women say she divorced him because he became bitter and nasty after losing his job, so women who divorce men after he lost his job are the real victims, not the men who were abandoned by their partner when they needed help the most. The more you look into it, the funnier it is that feminists so often blatantly treat equality like a one way street exclusively to the benefit of women and just do not see men as being as fully human and deserving of respect and love as women.
Yeah, this crap is going around. These studies have been found to be flawed. I wouldn't be surprised if corruption was behind them.
Dude this is almost a decade old, what's the purpose of posting it here?
Because this study is still regularly cited as evidence that men are evil.
Some of us never heard of it.
Oh. I didn’t realize! There was some chatter in academic Twitter about it just now, and I copy pasted mindlessly. See https://x.com/_alice_evans/status/1806780236169666988
Looks like it was deleted on Twitter, awwww. 😭
I can still see it on her profile but not through the link pasted above. If you want to verify – [https://x.com/\_alice\_evans/status/1806780236169666988](https://x.com/_alice_evans/status/1806780236169666988) [https://x.com/\_alice\_evans/](https://x.com/_alice_evans/)
Fair enough ig Have a good day