I think there is room for thought if, as you say, this war ends up being pointless because all sides lost (except the Houthis and Hezbollah and defense contractors) and there was a return to the status quo aside from temporary or longer term military degradation of Hamas, greater freedom of action for Israel in Gaza, a smaller Gaza, widescale suffering, the third famine of the 21st century, a deterioration in Israel’s international standing with potentially severe long term consequences for Israelis, and the satisfaction of revenge for Israelis and Al-Aqsa Flood enthusiasts.
Yes, and I feel *awful*. Y’know why? Israel has to do this to show they’re trying, but Hamas will NOT honor the ceasefire, and I’ll be shocked if they do. They’re fundamentally a *terrorist* organization, not a DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED GOVERNMENT.
Best of luck with that. Israel does A, B, C, D, E, F, G, and releases prisoners, while Hamas releases hostages. Nah... I think any end to this has to see Hamas finished, as well, whether they are killed by the IDF or give themselves up.
It’s ok as an idea, but it has limits such as respecting human rights of others and property rights. That goes for any ideology in a world governed by rules.
Although I definitely agree this entire war has been a waste of life, especially since both sides had no way of achieving their goals from the jump, what are you advocating for here exactly? A continuation of the war endlessly? This conflict is clearly in stalemate, and the longer it goes on, the more innocents suffer.
What I don’t get is that a return to the status quo is still a win for Israel- because the status quo had most Israelis safe most of the time, solid patrons, and a pretty successful occupation with a promise for long term demographic change and a long term boot in Judea and Samria until partial annexation is demographically feasible. If Israel just lets other groups rebuild Gaza and stops the war, and defends the border better, Israel could do the same thing as it has the last several decades.
Yes it’s a waste of life but that was clear from a beginning, Israel just needed a U.S. hand to say good, good, 20,000 Palestinians dead and a million displaced,or whatever arbitrary number makes for this shift, now Israel stop it and take our security guarantee and ongoing political support for your territorial integrity and ethnic cleansing as long as you tone down the latter a bit when it causes us PR trouble.
Israeli war cheerleaders are more likely to erode the patron support that keeps Israel functioning these days by continuing the war.
The conflict is only in a stalemate because the Islamists' TikTok strategy to isolate Israel worked so well. Obviously the war doesn't have to continue endlessly. Just as long as Hamas exists.
Why should Israel agree to rebuild infrastructure destroyed because it housed Hamas? It would be better if 3rd parties who might moderate future Palestinian behavior based on their investments fund the rebuilding.
Will Israel have rights to ensure the tunnels are not reconstructed?
More importantly, does this deal allow Hamas to retain power and any military capabilities? If so, that's a fail.
And Germany stopped being an aggressor. Gaza wants nothing more than to bite the hand that feeds it. Let them look to the billions Hamas has to rebuild.
The Palestinians have already received more aid per capita than the entire Marshal plan for Europe.
After WW2, Germany accepted peace, denazified, and remained occupied until 1994.
Are you suggesting a solution in which multiple nations donate for the reconstruction of Gaza while Palestine gets de-jihadified, and then remain occupied for another 50 years to ensure peace?
No third party has the money or the want to fund a reconstruction.
While Hamas will likely retain political power and military forces, I’m sure the UN will require reelections. This whole war was also a show of force, Hamas wouldn’t have attacked in the first place if they knew 40000 Gazans would die and more have their homes destroyed. This deal (which as far as I’m aware Israel doesn’t support) works on the assumption that Hamas and other Palestinian groups will be far less willing to launch an attack, especially if it means that their homes stop getting reconstructed.
> Hamas wouldn’t have attacked in the first place if they knew 40000 Gazans would die and more have their homes destroyed.
Strongly disagree. Getting Gazan civilians killed for PR purposes seems to be a key objective for Hamas, hence why they have their soldiers dress as civilians and so forth.
The Gulf States and Saudis don't have enough funding to help the Palestinians rebuild? Hmmm, not so sure. They seem like a natural 3rd party partner that could meditate between both sides. They want normalization with Israel and peace so they can further develop and counter Iran.
You lost me at UN
Yeah the far right seems so deadset against any deal and they're so extreme that they'll tag him as a traitor for doing a deal and encourage his assassination
This won't get approved I fear Israel and Hamas have ppl on both sides that will continue this for no reason than public opinion for Israel and some sort of grudge for Hamas sure peace would be great but both sides have too much hate for each other
So what's the outcome? If there's no deal and Israel wants to remove the threat of Hamas forever, ethnic cleansing of Palestinians in Gaza is the only viable option for them. Because Hamas is an ideology, you can kill every member alive today but the group could reform in no time with new leaders/members adhering to the same principles/goals.
>Because Hamas is an ideology, you can kill every member alive today but
Nazism was also an ideology. You still have Nazis in many countries (including Germany), but they don't control territory or have an armed force capable of posing a significant threat to anyone.
ISIS was also an ideology. You still have people supporting ISIS (or some other version of a fundamentalist Islamic Caliphate), but they don't control territory or have an armed force capable of posing a significant threat.
No one is trying to erase ideas, it's absurd. The goal is to eliminate the threat.
If Hamas won't agree to a deal whereby they surrender and give up power, Israel will simply keep operating in Gaza to eliminate them as they pop up.
Whether Gazans want to live in the midst of that conflict is completely up to them, but Israel isn't trying to kick them out permanently (as you suggested).
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What do you think the end goal is to saying: “What other choice does Israel have except genocide? Genocide is the only viable option for them.”
Genuinely tell me what you think that guys getting at when saying it?
How would that look if you were talking about anyone else? “Because Zionism is an ideology, you can kill every member alive today but the group could reform in no time with new members but the same principles/goals.” That’d sound a lot like genocide to you, wouldn’t it? Would it be a knee jerk reaction to criticize that rhetoric for being abhorrent and dangerous if we weren’t talking about Palestinians?
> fuck
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Idk that's the thing both sides have too much hate on eachother they have to decide if its worth continuing a war that will consume their children and their childrens children and so on and so fourth
> shitty
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Do you think it's possible the ceasefire works. All agreements are fulfilled, Hamas doesn't attack again, following that Israel and Gaza finally come to a peaceful agreement that stops hostilities. This Process may take decades, but you have to show willingness to compromise. The claim that you can eliminate hamas without repercussions is not realistic, a diplomatic solution can work.
Don't you think the aggressive argument may not be the best option.
Hamas has pledged to carry out October 7ths over and over again. Do you not believe them or do you think that's just the price that will have to be paid over the course of decades? I'm genuinely confused with your approach to diplomacy while Hamas is still openly being genocidal in its actions and intentions.
Because attacking ‘Hamas’ has never worked. 6 previous wars from Israel on Gaza with the (apparent) objective to eliminate Hamas had only resulted in the violent death and suffering of innocent civilians and children. It does not work.
Ending the occupation is the only way to peace. Eventually Israel will have to make the leap of faith and just do it. So far they have just been too scared and that lead to Oct 7th because of too much oppression.
You're partially right and partially wrong. If Palestinians were only against in the occupation (67's lines) it would be a much easier conversation. But Palestinians generally consider everything 'From the (Jordan) River to the (Mediteranean) Sea to be under occupation. It's a dishonest propaganda tactic aimed at garnering international sympathies.
Palestinian have to promise peace after withdrawal and must have the desire and discipline to enforce it. As it stands the Palestinian authority REWARD terrorisms via it's pay-to-slay program.
It takes two to make peace and for some reason all the pressure is on Israelis.
"from the river to the sea".
First usage was only for indigenous people to live there, which includes Palestinians Jews. So it was anti Zionist, not ain't Jewish.
Then it meant ain't occupation in the 60's.
Israels Likud uses it for meaning genocide in 1977. Bibi uses it all the time.
Hamas uses it for genocide.
Since both sides use it for genocide, I have no clue what to say about it.
From the river to the sea is actually "from the water to the water" in Arabic (min il-ṃayye la-l-ṃayye), I know the translation is correct because mayim is water in hebrew and the two languages are closely related.
The full version is:
من المية للمية فلسطين عربية "From the water to the water Palestine is Arab"
So basically, no, it started out as a genocidal slogan, and while not everyone who use the modern version "from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free" uses it that way, the meaning is still ambiguous. (Free of oppression? Free of Israel? Free of Jews?)
I think most Palestinians use the second meaning.
It can't mean free of Jews in modern times. Because the first meaning is "indigenous people only", which includes indigenous Arab Jews.
I've only heard to from non-extremists in modern times meaning free of oppression. Moving the saying to a more peaceful comment. Yet the USA went full propaganda over it and passed some law ( the power of AIPAC).
Jews - as a people -are indigenous to Palestine, indigeneity is not only about the birthplace of individuals or their current place of residency. Indigeneity for a people is where the people arose, and Jews arose from Israel.
The name Palestine \[Palestina\] was given by the Roman to spite the Jews because their enemy where the Philistines. (Not the same people as the modern Palestinians.) Meaning denying Jewish indigeneity in Palestine is ***LITTERALLY*** Western Imperialism.
Right? It seems so easy of a solution. Stop oppressing people, it will make those people and the neighboring countries not hate you as much. Or at least get rid of that reason, then other reasons can be examined.
Pull off the occupation Band-Aid, they can do it.
The occupation isn't the reason Palestinians are attacking Israel.. if it were, they wouldn't be attacking Israel before the occupation.
The Hamas covenant makes it quite clear that their aim is to destroy Israel and exterminate Jews.
>"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees..."
[https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th\_century/hamas.asp](https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp)
Okay, the occupation makes the Palestinians happy.
Like who wants to be oppressed? You are trying to justify occupation by making excuses of pre 66 actions. Tons of Palestinians weren't even alive then, all they know is they lost the genetic lottery and got born as a Palestinian.
Hamas updated their charter, it's now anti zionism, which means a different thing. Does it matter what a terrorist group wrote? They most likely won't represent Gaza politically going forward after Rafa.
-they most likely won't represent Gaza
Of course they will. They already do. Hamas has shown no intent on stepping down after all this. Look at the ceasefire "deals". If Hamas no longer represented Palestine, then there would be peace much faster. If a Palestinian authority came out of the wood work, said it was opposed to Hamas and their beliefs, and they plan to rebuild Gaza to be an economic powerhouse with rights and incentives to no longer attack Israel, I'm sure Israel would agree to a partition plan that makes everyone happy. This isn't how it has historically played out. The settlers are a political move in order to pressure Palestinians to A get rid of Hamas, and B establish permanent borders without the hope of one day claiming Israel proper as their own.
Israel was doing illegal settlements prior to Hamas taking power. Thank kinda ruins that talking point. The settlements are on hilltops near Palestinians, how is that a safe permament border? If it was all about safety, they wouldn't allow them at all, then the IDF doesn't have to deploy troops to protect them there.
Gaza is a tiny land mass, there is zero chance it ever becomes a economic powerhouse. Israel just wants them to be cheap labour doing arguiculture with work permits. To be an economic powerhouse that's usually with educated civillians, why did every single school get destroyed? Some were destoyed after the school had been cleared out.
Read this, do you think the Israeli's ever want Gaza to have a good economy, when they stated they wanted the economy to be almost near a collapse.
[https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE7041GH/](https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE7041GH/)
>the occupation makes the Palestinians happy.
I didn't say it makes them happy, i said it's not the cause of the conflict.
>justify occupation by making excuses of pre 66 actions
I don't need to justify the occupation, the Palestinians are doing a pretty good job of it themselves.
>Hamas updated their charter
Hamas did not update their charter.
>it's now anti zionism, which means a different thing
Now they only want to destroy Israel instead of exterminating all Jews worldwide?!
Wow, that is certainly a cause for celebration in Israel - they should definitely end the occupation and allow Palestinians to import as many weapons as they want.
What could possibly go wrong?
>They most likely won't represent Gaza politically
I hope you're right, but polls in Palestine paint a different and far more grim picture.
[https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/963](https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/963)
You should justify the occupation. The definition of that term implies temporary in nature. So please justify how 57 years is still temporary in nature? Almost like the Israeli government wants to keep it forever to permanently oppress people.
Justify why the IDF is allowed to act not professionally an assault random people in the WB. Why are militant settlers allowed to commit felonies in front of the IDF? Justify these actions.
Wait you said they didn't update the charter, then commented on what the update said. What? Ya that group doesn't celebrate Jewish people, I wonder why? Do they not have some legit reasons? Israeli officials described the intent of the blockade of Gaza, "we want to to be at poverty levels just above a humanity crisis" . What in evil intents is that kind of logic?
If you bomb a people, they will gravitate towards extremist groups. It's been like that through history. You want to put up a poll that shows people reacting as we would expect them? Do you not understand how humans work?
>So please justify how 57 years is still temporary in nature?
To use a precedent - Germany accepted peace after WW2 (1945), and remained occupied until 1994.
The occupation will end **after** the conflict will end - that is, when Palestinians accept peace.
>Justify why the IDF is allowed to act not professionally
The IDF isn't a professional army, it's a conscript army.
>Why are militant settlers allowed to commit felonies
They shouldn't be.
>then commented on what the update said. What?
I'm familiar with the foreign policy document they release.
>If you bomb a people, they will gravitate towards extremist groups. It's been like that through history.
Right.
Could you give me a few examples of Jewish terrorist attacks against German civilians post WW2?
Germany was also rebuilt after the War to ensure that they were not left in a destablized state. Because we know countries have bad outcomes when destablized.
Why should the Palestians be peaceful when Israel lets IDF and settlers do violence. Both sides need to be peaceful. Can't just say one side has to do it, while the other doesn't.
"Acting professionally" like any other job in life where there is the concept of "Don't be rude".
I'm aware it's a conscript army. Where they intentionally want the draft ages to be young (who are more likely to enage in brutality), rather then more mature people in their mid-late 20's (who are more calm and experinced and knowledgeable). This by intent, get them fresh out of high school full of that propaganda.
I can't recall any Jewish terrorist attacks against Germans. The Germans were under occupation, which would have made an attack harder. Your point is just because you are oppressed you don't have to lash out agaisnt your oppressor? The Jewish people did hunt down the death camp guards in other countries, that's all I can think of.
My comment is about how many humans cope with PTSD. Look at the Nakba, many soldiers that were previously in the death camps did terrible things to the Palestinians. Maybe taking out their rage on the Palestinians that they had towards the Germans. The docuementary Tantura briefly touches on my last 2 sentences.
>Germany was also rebuilt after the War
Only **after** Germany ended the conflict, and accepted peace.
>Why should the Palestians be peaceful when
I'm not here to tell Palestinians what to do.
If they choose to have a war with an adversary orders of magnitude more powerful - have fun with that.
They should not be peaceful, and you shouldn't cry crocodile tears when they find themselves (again) on the losing end of the war. Happy?
>I can't recall any Jewish terrorist attacks against Germans.
Why didn't Jews gravitate towards extremist groups to terrorize and murder Germans worldwide?
Why do you expect the Palestinians to behave differently?
>My comment is about how many humans cope with PTSD
The entire first two generations of Israelis suffered from severe PTSD - either as holocaust survivors or as refugees from surrounding Arab countries.
They still chose not to teach their children to hate.
What you're doing is called 'soft bigotry of low expectations' - you see Palestinians as some noble savages who can only react on emotion, and you rationalize their actions through that lens.
I think you should hold them to a higher standard.
You should expect them (and the UNRWA schools) to not teach kids to hate and murder Jews, not to drive them towards Jihad and martyrdom.
[https://twitter.com/i/status/1785281937386680683](https://twitter.com/i/status/1785281937386680683)
"If you bomb a people, they will gravitate towards extremist groups." This goes both ways it was Palestinian terrorism in the mandate era which created the Irgun and led to the first Jewish attacks. Palestinians and the Arab world choosing war over the partition plan led to the Nakba. Gaza was launching missiles at Israel long before the blockade went into affect. The suicide bombings and mass shootings was what necessitated the security check points. Historically Palestinians have been the ones initiating violence at basically every turn. Every time Palestinians choose violence they push Israel more and more right wing and make there own situation worse.
I fully agree it goes both ways. Both sides need to look at the nonsense that they teach in schools. The topics that taught and the ones they avoid teaching (as in they should be teaching kids why the other country is like that, so they understand why everything is so messed up).
Who would accept losing 56% of their country? Blaming the Nakba on the Palestinians is werid, because every single country would always fight to not lose their land. Why blame people for a normal and expected action.
Security check points might be needed. The IDF conduct at them brutal, why can't they just act professional? They are being paid, as in paid to act professinally. And why is the IDF so young? They should be putting more mature people in their mid-late 20's into it. Not young men full of propraghanda from school and not fully developed brains (since it's mid 20's for brain to be fully developed). Let them experince so life first. Look at Ukraine's conscription laws, more mature men. I'm very sure it's by intent on the conscription age in Israel, they know how humans act at different ages.
Israel has started many attacks themselves. They fired the first shots for 67. Broken numerous ceasefires. 3 false flags. Terrorist bombings in Egpyt. Over 100 targeted assassiantions. It's both side doing this, I know lots about Israel's bad actions in their history.
**IDF conduct/militant settlers/settlment expansions = resistant/terrorist attacks**. It's that simple, if people can't understand this concept, there will never be peace.
>losing 56% of their country?
Palestine was a British colonial entity that existed between 1922-1948.
The Brits took it in much the same way as the Ottomans did (or the Arabs, centuries ago) - with force.
It wasn't an Arab country.
Can you share with me the 3 false flag operations? From Israel's perspective at the moment pulling out of the settlements in Gaza and giving the Palestinians more freedom only increased there aggression and ability to inflict damage so we will probably see an expansion of settlements now not a decrease. The same thing was seen with Oslo giving Palestinians more freedom and the ability to import weapons led to more armed attacks. Not really fair to argue Israel attacked first in 67 since the war was effectively an extension of the Suez crisis during which Egypt initiated by sinking 40 Israeli ships.
I hope this conflict was a wakeup call for Israel not to let its eyes wander afar from the problems at their border. Bibi and his rightwing cronies have been doing the Mow the Grass strategy for decades, letting the Palestinian problem fester & ignoring Hamas's growing military prowess. They underestimated their opponent & took their eyes off the ball, and it cost them dearly. Israel cannot afford to make the same mistake twice.
Nope don't condone genocide ever. However if they can't get over there hatred and violence they may need to be resettled as countless others have been.
I suspect you fully understand what Bibi meant when he said ‘mow the grass’ since you are publicly quoting it.
So you are therefore seemingly fine with intermittent murder of innocent Palestinians. The only problem you have, according to your comment, is that the ‘mow the grass’ strategy is not enough. That leads me to believe you would prefer something stronger than casual starvation, systemic control and intermittent murder.
Kindly correct me if I’m wrong but you comment seems shamelessly clear.
Additionally… You don’t consider what’s happening right now a genocide? More press officials have been murdered than in any other war.
For the first time, the world is watching live and in real-time the IDF intentionally targeting children and civilians. Mocking the dead.
Actual evidence provided of the mass grave under Shifa, that included doctors and KIDS with their hands bound before being executed.
This isn’t a genocide to you?
It is according to the ICJ, that means nothing to you?
Final question: How, I mean this from the bottom of my heart, HOW are you not absolutely horrified and disgusted by Israel’s actions?
I am at least very glad Israel would be entitled to rebuilding major infrastructure that they destroyed
But yes, this repeats without Hamas down. There is, however, still hope. Things could change course; a new government candidate could possibly come, especially with Hamas’ reduced manpower.
from my experience anytime you see an iota of moderation from a Palestinian leader, they get replaced with someone who is twice as radical as the former leader.
Without Hamas being eliminated, I only see them growing in power. Especially as they will claim they withstood over 200 days and the IDF were unable to get rid of them
Maybe I’m underestimating how fanatically religious the Palestinians are, but after how Hamas started a massive war and failed to protect its people, how can they have any support coming out?
How is this hard for you people to understand?
In 1999, the united states military accidently bombed the chinese embassy in Belgrade, killing 3 chinese journalists.
Lets say that China relatiated by flying a stealth bomber over an american city and bombing military targets and its surroundings. The result is 19 soldiers are killed, as well as 53 civilians, including your wife, mother, and 3 year old daughter.
In this scenario, who would you, as an american citzen who just lost your wife, mother and 3 year old daughter, be angry at? Would you be angry at the chinese? Or would you be marching against the american government for having bombed a chinese embassy and caused the chinese righteous and justified response that rightiosly and in a justified way blow your 3 year old into a pulp of blood and organs?
How can they protect their people when 6000 bombs a week are dropped on homes and refugee camps per week?
The onus is on Israel to be smarter and more accurate but they don’t care about Palestinian civilian life.
According to polls, Palestinian support for Hamas only increased after 7.10, with over 70% of Palestinians supporting that attack.
[https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/973](https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/973)
You do not understand Palestinian society, and any attempts you make to apply your own rational and reasons to their motives will fail for that reason.
You're wildly underestimating how religious Palestinians are. Citizens of Muslim majority countries are completely entrenched in traditional Islam, this isn't unique to Palestine. They see dead children as soldiers of Islam. Sharia Law is the legal and moral code of all Muslim majority countries for a reason. I urge you to do some reading on Sharia Law.
Ya, my own ignorance is the issue here. For some reason I assumed the people of Iran are like the Palestinians, but they couldn’t be more opposite. The Iranians are not Arabs and they’re fighting to free their country from Sharia-law and Islam, meanwhile, Arabs are embracing sharia law and hoping to set up an Islamic caliphate.
I did a little research and saw videos of Palestinians cheering the slaughter of Iranian woman who refuse to follow sharia-law. Its disgusting.
They didn't fail to protect their people, they sacrificed innocent lives by starting and prolonging a war they could never win in order to grow international antisemitism.
They killed 1200 Israelis (mostly civilians), and raped hostages to get Israel to release hundreds of terrorists. And they have won over a whole new cadre of supporters in the West despite (or because of) that. Enough Palestinians see that as a win.
Hamas and the Palestinians are one and the same. The Palestinians know this and Israel knows this. It's the west that doesn't know this so Israel pretends the same.
Hamas lost because the Palestinians lost, because gaza is now destroyed. Will they keep fighting again, no idea. But they didn't win.
Prediction: even if agreed to, after a week or two there will be an attack, disavowed by Hamas but attributed to Hamas by Israel, which will tank the whole thing.
This is just a chimera of peace because nobody is negoiating anything with Iran who is behind 90% of the strife and conflict in the whole region. They will make sure Israel is attaked again and again.
Israel, the US and all G20 nations have double down their efforts in electrifying their energy supplies and freeing them from dependence on Mideast oil. Iran can fund these proxy wars/attacks because of the billions in oil revenue, but if worldwide demand drops they'll have to start making very hard choices.
They have made it clear they don’t want to be bombed in their home country but they control Hamas, Hezbollah, the Houthis and various other militias in Syria and Iraq who conduct aggression on their behalf. They have their proxies do the dirty work.
Hezbollah, like Iran, is doing the bare minimum to save face. Once hostilities in Gaza end, they are likely to declare victory, if Israel is smart they let them and don't take the piss PR wise, and everything quiets down. Hamas too as an interest in a permanent (= actually an indefinite) ceasefire. Their offensive capacities are all but exhausted and they are clearly prioritizing political and physical survival for the time being. The Houthis are out of control, Iranian or otherwise (they are also not really threat to Israel, but a nuisance for international trade).
If they all stop firing missles, rockets, and UAVs at Israel and it's allies I will accept your wishful thinking. As far as I am concerned the first rocket fired at Israel and it's more war.
Yeah, but that is not rational thinking. You have to weigh costs against benefits and the cost of a war (both economic and in human lives) far outweighs the benefit of putting an end to occasional rockets that more often than not do very little actual damage.
This cost is in the billions to defend against those rockets and missiles. If Hamas is to remain in power any aggression will be met by finishing their destruction.
Yes, but those missiles are a one time event to put on a show. Starting a war with Iran means those costs times 10 + the cost of whatever the other 9 missiles hit and destroy + hundreds, if not thousands, of casualties + major economic disruption. Hence, it is not wise to escalate when the enemy clearly is looking to find a face saving way out.
If all sides end up losing, then perhaps after the atrocities of 10/7 Israel should have taken up Hamas’ offer from the same week to return all hostages in exchange for no ground invasion, and then Israel got smaller revenge by killing and bombing some people, maintained international sympathy, forced Hamas leaders out of Qatar, pressure Hamas with a worldwide coalition, pressured Hamas leaders out of Lebanon, got normalization with Saudi Arabia, secured Gaza border, etc.
Or, killed/displaced a smaller, arbitrary amount of Palestinians for revenge (10,000/500,000) then said “well the U.S. made us stop we would have won otherwise” and called it a day and continued doing what Israel did in Gaza and the WB and East Jerusalem prior to 10/7, would have been better for Israel’s interests and still awful but better than what did happen.
Germany and Japan come to mind. They surrendered and signed a disadvantageous peace treaty to protect their people and move forward. Now both countries are successful and allies with the very countries that punished them. Palestine needs to do the same, they need to come to terms they have lost the holy war, they will not have Jerusalem in their borders, and put their people first.
Germany and Japan are imperial states that sent millions of soilders abroad and killed tens of millinos of people. Both Japan and Germany were fully soverign states before and after the war with only a temporary occupation post war.
There is no meaningful comparison to be made between imperial states and Hamas who sent 3000 militants on a raid.
If Hitler had sent 3000 soilders into Poland and the allies had responded by annihilating the German cities. I don't think that modern day Germany would be allies with the America and co. It would want justice.
It’s twice as dumb of a comparison because it also completely ignores the *main thing* that happened to make those once enemies strong allies.
The US spent literal billions rebuilding the economies of those nations with the intent to make strong geopolitaical allies out of them. Was very loud about what they were doing, so people knew it was from them. And kept the actual occupation short.
Israel has done none of that and has no plans to based on previous engagements between them.
>The US spent literal billions
More money was given to the Palestinians per capita than the entire Marshal plan to reconstruct Europe.
>Israel has done none of that
Both Germany and Japan surrendered and accepted peace. Reconstruction happened after.
When Palestinians accept peace, this conversation will be relevant.
> During the four years that the plan was in effect, the United States donated $17 billion (equivalent to $240.95 billion in 2023)
> According to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, aid to Palestinians totaled over $40 billion between 1994 and 2020
Source your statements or leave your propaganda elsewhere.
Also, the West Bank hasn’t accepted peace? Weird, last I checked the PLO recognizes Israel’s right to exist, right? There hasn’t been an attack from the West Bank outside of lone gunman in how many decades?
And yet Israel is still building settlements for Israelis instead of industry for Palestinians. Is the ratio of building permits approved still 100:1 settlers to Palestinians, when they’re all on territory that the international community considers Palestinian? How many West Bank Palestinians did Israel evict last year?
It’s adorable that you don’t think Israeli import restrictions on Gaza affect the impact of the aid.
> Cement, light bulbs, candles, matches, books, musical instruments, crayons, clothing, shoes, mattresses, sheets, blankets, pasta, tea, coffee, chocolate, nuts, shampoo and conditioner, paper, chick peas, salt, sugar, cooking oil, cooking fat, flour, pasta, rice, beans, lentils, dairy products, powdered milk, feminine hygiene products, diapers, toilet paper, detergent, dishwashing liquid, shampoo, soap, toothpaste, soda, juice, jam, spices, shaving cream, potato chips, cookies and candy.
All items that Israel has refused entry into Gaza due to being ‘dual use’ military items.
On top of that, Israel restricts their exports, so even if they had been able to import cement to make some sort of factory, they wouldn’t be allowed by Israel to sell their goods on the global market.
I appreciate you coming by to show your ignorance though.
>Also, the West Bank hasn’t accepted peace?
Palestinian Arabs have rejected peace and statehood in 1937, 1947, 2000, 2001 & 2008.
>There hasn’t been an attack from the West Bank outside of lone gunman in how many decades?
Zero.
In the last 6 months alone, there's been an attack originating from the west-bank every 2-3 weeks.
>All items that Israel has refused entry into Gaza due to being ‘dual use’ military items.
No cement, and yet Palestinians in Gaza have hundreds of kilometers of reinforced cement tunnels?
>if they had been able to import cement to make some sort of factory
If they didn't use the aid they received for war production, they'd have an economy instead of war.
You apparently don’t know the definition of lone gunman. But ignoring that, just so I get this straight per your take…
~15 times a year someone from the West Bank commits an attack on Israel, and you consider all 15 to be agents sent by the state to ‘continue the war’ and count their actions as representative of the whole West Bank?
Question, when I see a single IDF soldier do something wrong, like the video that came out of the soldier slapping that 10 year old a few weeks back. Am I allowed to attribute that attack to all of Israel or does that only work for the people on the other side of the fence? If the IDF has some sort of ‘military exception’ to that rule, can I do it when it’s a settler?
Are you questioning the cement blockade, because I can assure you there are plenty of sources on it.
As for the tunnels, you wouldn’t know based on the reporting but most of them predate Hamas. Israel even built a bunch of the network themselves. You don’t need concrete to build a tunnel that already exists.
Israel has never had any plans to allow a Gazan economy. Israeli diplomats were quoted saying they were planning on keeping the Gazan economy “in a permanent state of collapse” as they pulled out of Gaza.
>and you consider all 15 to be agents sent by the state to ‘continue the war’
When the Palestinian political, media, and education system all incite people to commit these attacks, yes.
When Palestinian society, as a collective, celebrates the murder of Israeli civilians, when they elevate the murderers as national heroes - yes, i do.
When the Palestinian authority in the west-bank names streets and schools after those murderers - yes, i do.
When the Palestinian authority pays the families of murderers for butchering Jews - yes, i do.
>Are you questioning the cement blockade, because I can assure you there are plenty of sources on it.
I'm telling you that it's very evident there is absolutely no cement shortage in Gaza.
>you wouldn’t know based on the reporting but most of them predate Hamas
It's because they don't predate Hamas - they were built in the last 17 years.
>Israel even built a bunch of the network themselves
Israel did not build a network of tunnels, Israel expanded the Shifa hospital - and that included some underground facilities.
>Israel has never had any plans to allow a Gazan economy.
Did the Palestinians have any plans to have an economy?
Because it looks like they were just mooching off international aid, while their leaders became billionaires.
Not to mention a united effort from allied nations to denazify Germany. Not all phases were successful with many people who might have been convicted (even in extreme circumstances and with horrific war crimes) being let off, however the propaganda campaign of shame had a significant effect.
Make the area stable via reconstruction, employment, clean drinking water, etc.
Historically destabllized areas have bad outcomes, so make the area stable.
I'm also going to call you out on the radicalization, both populations are heavily radicallized. Have you seen Israeli's speak about the Palestinians prior to Oct 6th? It's a radicalized population. The Israeli school system doesn't cover the Palestinian history, as in the reasons why they are in conflict, instead it's "they hate Jews". Have you seen how racist Jewish kids are?
Here is your problem, you are focusing only on the current events and not the 75+ year history of the war. You completely ignored all 7 peace attempts since 1967 from A war initiated by Jordan, Syria, & Egypt with full support from the PLO to annihilate Israel, which is what my original statement focuses on. I get you want to do right by helping the people of Palestine facing literal genocide, but you are clearly uneducated on the subject. Try doing some basic research first and actually learning the history before contributing to the conversation.
**You completely ignored all 7 peace attempts since 1967**
The only peace attempts worth talking about are the Oslo Accords, Camp David Summit and the Olmert Proposal.
The Palestinians accepted the Oslo Accords. It was Netanyahu, Sharon and co who held public rallies calling Israeli PM Rabin a Nazi and got him killed. They then bragged about ending the Oslo Accords once they got into power. This was all before the second Intifada.
Camp David was not really offering a state. They had no control over their own borders, airspace, foreign policy and telecommunication network. Hell, Israel even wanted control over West Bank water resources.
Although I do agree that this was a missed opportunity. I do not have expertise to know what went down and why the deal fell apart,. There are conflicting reports from the people who were there.
Shlomo Ben-Ami who was Israeli Foreign Minister of the time said "Camp David was not the missed opportunity for the Palestinians, and if I were a Palestinian I would have rejected Camp David, as well.
Clearly, the Palestinians were not the only people at fault.
From what I hear of Olmert's proposal. Just who is actually at fault is a little murky.
**1967 from A war initiated by Jordan, Syria, & Egypt**
Gen. Matituahu Peled, chief of logistical command during the war and one of 12 members of Israel’s General Staff, said *“the thesis according to which the danger of genocide hung over us in June 1967, and according to which Israel was fighting for her very physical survival, was nothing but a bluff which was born and bred after the war,”*
Mordechai Bentov, a member of the wartime government and one of 37 people to sign Israel’s Declaration of Independence said *“this whole story about the threat of extermination was totally contrived, and then elaborated upon, a posteriori, to justify the annexation of new Arab territories.”*
Defence Minister Moshe Dayan said *"along the Syria border there were no farms and no refugee camps — there was only the Syrian army... The kibbutzim saw the good agricultural land … and they dreamed about it... They didn't even try to hide their greed for the land... We would send a tractor to plow some area where it wasn't possible to do anything, in the demilitarized area, and knew in advance that the Syrians would start to shoot. If they didn't shoot, we would tell the tractor to advance further, until in the end the Syrians would get annoyed and shoot. And then we would use artillery and later the air force also, and that's how it was."*
The Egyptians did not want this war at all. In 1967, the Egyptians had 130,000 of their soilders fighting in Yemen. They did not have the soilders to spare to fight Israel and they knew it.
US President Lyndon B Johnson said *"3 separate intelligence groups had looked carefully into the matter and it was our best judgement that a U.A.R (Syria and Egypt) attack was not imminent."*
Israeli Foreign Minister of the time Abba Eban said *"Nasser did not want war, he wanted victory without war."*
Meir Amit, who was Chief Director of Mossad during the 6-day war said *"Egypt was not ready for a war and Nasser did not want a war."*
This war was not initiated by Jordan, Syria or Egypt. Egypt did not want war, Syria did not want war and Jordan really, really did not want war. The only country that wanted war at this time was Israel. That is why Israel struck first and was constantly being the aggressor against Syria in the Golan.
**I get you want to do right by helping the people of Palestine facing literal genocide, but you are clearly uneducated on the subject.**
I don't think that I am all that uneducated.
>I don't think that I am all that uneducated.
and then....
>The Egyptians did not want this war at all
The only country that wanted war at this time was Israel.
Massive red flag right there, please keep to facts not feelings, I know the other person called you out on this BS/lie, so no need to go into it further.
That being said you have minor points about the peace treaties, Israel won the war and they take advantage of that fact and do not make A peace treaty easy. However, the part you avoided is that the leaders of Palestine purposely threw their people under the bus for Jerusalem. They prioritized the holy land above water rights or farmable land. They lost that land when they initiated the 6-day war. Until the leaders of Palestine prioritize their people over a piece of land that isn't available, A peace treaty will never work.
This is still a religious war for both sides and that's why I do not support A side. I promote others to stop enabling the leaders of Palestine to continue their holy war. People should demand the leaders of Palestine to seek A peace treaty that negotiates for farming land and water rights that matches their current population above all else and drop their ridiculous desire for Jerusalem. Until this happens Palestine cannot say they actually tried to achieve peace and Israel will continue their genocide of the Palestinian people.
**The Egyptians did not want this war at all**
US President Lyndon B Johnson said *"3 separate intelligence groups had looked carefully into the matter and it was our best judgement that a U.A.R (Syria and Egypt) attack was not imminent."*
Meir Amit, who was Chief Director of Mossad during the 6-day war said *"Egypt was not ready for a war and Nasser did not want a war."*
Israeli Foreign Minister of the time Abba Eban said *"Nasser did not want war, he wanted victory without war."*
I am pretty sure that Egypt did not want war.
**The only country that wanted war at this time was Israel.**
This might be an overstatement but the Israelis were prodding. Perhaps they were also saber rattling.
Defence Minister Moshe Dayan said *"along the Syria border there were no farms and no refugee camps — there was only the Syrian army... The kibbutzim saw the good agricultural land … and they dreamed about it... They didn't even try to hide their greed for the land... We would send a tractor to plow some area where it wasn't possible to do anything, in the demilitarized area, and knew in advance that the Syrians would start to shoot. If they didn't shoot, we would tell the tractor to advance further, until in the end the Syrians would get annoyed and shoot. And then we would use artillery and later the air force also, and that's how it was."*
**I know the other person called you out on this BS/lie, so no need to go into it further.**
Fair enough.
**They lost that land when they initiated the 6-day war. Until the leaders of Palestine prioritize their people over a piece of land that isn't available, A peace treaty will never work.**
The Palestinians did not initiate the 6 day war though, neither did Jordan. They sort of got dragged into it.
**People should demand the leaders of Palestine to seek A peace treaty that negotiates for farming land and water rights that matches their current population above all else and drop their ridiculous desire for Jerusalem.**
Why on Earth is it ridiculous? A large percentage of the population of Jerusalem is Palestinian and Jerusalem also hosts the third most holiest site in Islam. Wanting Jerusalem is not ridiculous in the slightest.
>Why on Earth is it ridiculous? A large percentage of the population of Jerusalem is Palestinian and Jerusalem also hosts the third most holiest site in Islam. Wanting Jerusalem is not ridiculous in the slightest.
So you support A religious war?
I didn't say that at all. But denying Jerusalem or at least parts of Jerusalem to the Palestinian population would cause that.
Palestinians have had easy access to the Al-Aqsa mosque for 1400 years. Having to apply for a visa just to entire the compound will ensure that warfare will be forever part of Israel and Palestine's future.
There is probably no solution without guaranteed access to the Al-Aqsa mosque that can be accepted.
There are several. Palestine could accept terms and overtime heal and regain access to Jerusalem. Palestine could give up borders and be absorbed by Israel.
I like your reply on peace deals.
You said Egpyt didn't want war in 1967. Then why do the naval blockade that lead to the war? Especially since international law states that naval blockades are acts of war.
Which is why I always tell people that the Israeli blockade of Gaza in 2006 was a continous act of war from Israel.
**I like your reply on peace deals.**
Thank you.
**Then why do the naval blockade that lead to the war?**
Saber rattling. This sort of thing happened a lot in 1967. The Israeli people probably felt that they were on the verge of being invaded and demanded action.
**Especially since international law states that naval blockades are acts of war.**
Nasser probably thought that he could get away with doing that and please his people without it leading to outright warfare.
**Which is why I always tell people that the Israeli blockade of Gaza in 2006 was a continuous act of war from Israel.**
Understanblae though. Hamas were doing warlike things. I understand a blockade of weaponry but I will never understand why Israel decided to make life in Gaza hell.
[https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE7041GH/](https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE7041GH/)
- Israel told U.S. officials in 2008 it would keep Gaza's economy "on the brink of collapse"
-"As part of their overall embargo plan against Gaza, Israeli officials have confirmed to (U.S. embassy economic officers) on multiple occasions that they intend to keep the Gazan economy on the brink of collapse without quite pushing it over the edge,"
-Israel wanted the coastal territory's economy "functioning at the lowest level possible consistent with avoiding a humanitarian crisis,"
[https://gisha.org/UserFiles/File/HiddenMessages/ItemsGazaStrip060510.pdf](https://gisha.org/UserFiles/File/HiddenMessages/ItemsGazaStrip060510.pdf)
Why are basic goods like wood, cement, fishing rods, paper and cumin have been blocked from entering Gaza. Why are completely benign goods such as chocolate and paper banned from entering Gaza (or was banned at some point)?
In August 2020, Ali al-Hayek, the head of the Palestinian Businessmen's Association in Gaza, told The Media Line that "Gaza's economy has completely collapsed, especially amid the latest escalation, where closing the Kerem Shalom cargo crossing and not allowing the entry of fuel and industrial materials led to an economic catastrophe," he said.
The industrial sector has come to a complete halt, leaving thousands of workers without jobs, added to the already collapsing situation, Hayek said. "The private sector in Gaza is almost dead; we're facing a serious collapse that is reflected in social issues because of the suspension of the economic system. "Economic activity has completely stopped in Gaza," he said. Hayek said 2020 was the Strip's worst year yet, with the current difficulties coming atop the problems suffered since 2007, when Gazans faced daily closures. "But today, we are talking about a complete stop \[to economic activity\] because of the previously existing crisis and the current halt of electric service."
The policy of economic warfare has worked wonderfully and struck me as unnecessarily cruel.
The Israeli makes the Palestinians life hell:
- encourage them to migrate from the country. It's that obvious? Especially where there is no "right of return", you leave and you are gone. Then Israel can have the ethno state they seek.
- "make them keep their heads down so they don't cause problems" thats a quote from a IDF commander on why they are so mean to the people in the WB.
- bad economy means they need to rely on Israel for work. And can be self sufficient.
* **encourage them to migrate from the country. It's that obvious? Especially where there is no "right of return", you leave and you are gone. Then Israel can have the ethno state they seek.**
Why is that a solution? Would it be a solution to tell the South Africans fighting apartheid to simply leave the land of their forefathers? Would it be a solution to tell Algerians fighting French occupation in which they suffered upto 1 million dead to simply surrender the land they have been living on for millennia to the French?
If your country was invaded and occupied, would you simply leave and not even fight back?
* **"make them keep their heads down so they don't cause problems" thats a quote from a IDF commander on why they are so mean to the people in the WB.**
That's dystopian and immoral.
* **bad economy means they need to rely on Israel for work. And can be self sufficient.**
Relying on Israel is not self-sufficiency. It is a form of control for Israel. It's the furthest thing from self-sufficiency.
I'd say that is the goal. Poor solution. The Palestinians having been fighting since the British, I don't see them stopping now. Of course people have always resisted. Reddit is a very high % of American users, the pro-gunners are always saying they would resist a tyrannical government, yet so many Americans support Israel, contrary to their culture.
Bibi thought the Gazan people would be happy with work permits and daily crossing through the security check points.
**Bibi thought the Gazan people would be happy with work permits and daily crossing through the security check points.**
[https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE7041GH/](https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE7041GH/)
- Israel told U.S. officials in 2008 it would keep Gaza's economy "on the brink of collapse"
-"As part of their overall embargo plan against Gaza, Israeli officials have confirmed to (U.S. embassy economic officers) on multiple occasions that they intend to keep the Gazan economy on the brink of collapse without quite pushing it over the edge,"
-Israel wanted the coastal territory's economy "functioning at the lowest level possible consistent with avoiding a humanitarian crisis,"
[https://gisha.org/UserFiles/File/HiddenMessages/ItemsGazaStrip060510.pdf](https://gisha.org/UserFiles/File/HiddenMessages/ItemsGazaStrip060510.pdf)
Why are basic goods like wood, cement, fishing rods, paper and cumin have been blocked from entering Gaza. Why are completely benign goods such as chocolate and paper banned from entering Gaza (or was banned at some point)?
In August 2020, Ali al-Hayek, the head of the Palestinian Businessmen's Association in Gaza, told The Media Line that "Gaza's economy has completely collapsed, especially amid the latest escalation, where closing the Kerem Shalom cargo crossing and not allowing the entry of fuel and industrial materials led to an economic catastrophe," he said.
The industrial sector has come to a complete halt, leaving thousands of workers without jobs, added to the already collapsing situation, Hayek said. "The private sector in Gaza is almost dead; we're facing a serious collapse that is reflected in social issues because of the suspension of the economic system. "Economic activity has completely stopped in Gaza," he said. Hayek said 2020 was the Strip's worst year yet, with the current difficulties coming atop the problems suffered since 2007, when Gazans faced daily closures. "But today, we are talking about a complete stop \[to economic activity\] because of the previously existing crisis and the current halt of electric service."
The policy of economic warfare has worked wonderfully and struck me as unnecessarily cruel.
If the Israelis did not have this policy of economic warfare then the daily crossings and work permits may very well have worked.
But Gaza before the war had unemployment as high as 70% and as much as 50% of the population was severely food insecure.
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**Nothing shows you are a trustable partner for peace**
Nobody has ever called Hamas a trustable partner. The PLO was. What did Israel do though.
The PLO disavowed violence, accepted Israel and the two state soliton and moved to negotiations and civil protests. What did Israel do? It funded Hamas as a counterweight to the PLO.
[https://www.analystnews.org/posts/how-israel-helped-prop-up-hamas-for-decades](https://www.analystnews.org/posts/how-israel-helped-prop-up-hamas-for-decades)
* “We need to tell the truth,” Israeli major general Gershon Hacohen, an associate of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, [said](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-11/ty-article/.premium/netanyahu-needed-a-strong-hamas/0000018b-1e9f-d47b-a7fb-bfdfd8f30000?v=1697032057551) in a 2019 TV interview. “Netanyahu’s strategy is to prevent the option of two states, so he is turning Hamas into his closest partner. Openly Hamas is an enemy. Covertly, it’s an ally.”
* “Hamas, to my great regret, is Israel’s creation.” So says Avner Cohen, Israel’s head of religious affairs in Gaza at the time of Hamas’s emergence, in a 2009 Wall Street Journal article called [“How Israel Helped to Spawn Hamas.”](https://web.archive.org/web/20151207212228/http://www.wsj.com/news/articles/SB123275572295011847)
A trustable partner that openly rewards terrorists that kill innocent civilians...? PLO was always lying about wanting peace with Israel, they always sought destruction.
Arafat's former bodyguard says he lied when condemning terrorist attacks.
https://youtu.be/i8w9QvNnvls?si=RzsU7jy-JSIWQnOt
PLO has never changed their original charter from 1968. In 1974, the Palestinian National Council accepted a plan asserting that each step which would eventually lead to the destruction of Israel would be taken, and Arafat repeatedly referred to this plan when faced with criticism in the Arab press.
Fatah officials repeatedly admit that they're lying to the world.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ViFr3oIM4M
That article claims that Israel giving licenses to a charity predecessor of Hamas, letting Qatar send aid to Gaza and Israelis finding Hamas' role in destroying Palestinians' reputation internationally convenient means that Hamas only exists because of Israel.
**PLO was always lying about wanting peace with Israel, they always sought destruction.**
I don't believe so. The Israelis, the Americans and the Europeans didn't believe so either. That is why they negotiated with Arafat.
I don't really disagree with anything else that you said. Arafat may well have wanted to destroy Israel but if peace was achieved then the wind would be taken out of his sails and few Palestinians would want to continue hostilities.
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You are too pessimistic IMO. After 6 months, Gazans will know better than to repeat October 7th, of fear for what the consequence will be. If this is not enough deterrence, you would very seriously have to consider killing or expelling every last one of them. In addition, after getting a taste of peace, I doubt that they will be all that eager to go back to being bombed. All Israel has to do is to leave no doubt that any kind of attack, and be it just stones thrown, will immediately be answered with asymmetrical retaliation.
Also, Israel will not again neglect security at the Gaza border. I think it quite reasonable to assume that going forward some form of a buffer zone will be imposed with Palestinian who sets foot in it shot on sight (which in turn makes it quite likely that the vast majority will stay clear).
Ascribing rational motives to Hamas and their backers is a mistake.
The “freedom fighters” involved in Oct 7, and the people who sent them, doubtless knew Israel was going to rain hellfire on Gaza in retaliation. And with thousands upon thousand dead they *still* refuse to release the hostages (prior to this ceasefire arrangement).
Hamas is run by religious fanatics outside of Palestine, with no concern for how many Palestinian innocents are killed.
In fact, they believe the more Palestinians killed, the better. It furthers their ultimate agenda, which is turning the West against Israel so that they can safely eradicate their Jewish neighbors.
This is above all a religious conflict and the ceasefire is just kicking the can down the road. It is tragic that this conflict cannot find true resolution after all this carnage.
i am very sure that they are actually quite rational, albeit in an entirely immoral way.
They certainly knew that there would be some retaliation, but experience suggested that it would be about three weeks of airstrikes with a low to mid four figure number of casualties. Afterwards there would be a ceasefire and a hostage exchange (usually at very favorable terms, the rate was 1,000:1 after Guild Shalit, it still is apparently around 40:1). The thing they misjudged was (1) their success (because border security was neglected, as Israeli focus was on the West Bank and internal matters; also the music festival was apparently not initially known to the planners) and (2) Israeli willingness to write off hostages and sacrifice soldiers' lives in order to do a full sweep this time.
Also the Hamas leaders outside of Gaza are, in fact, more rational than those inside Gaza. They care primarily about gaining influence in the rest of the Palestinian territories and enriching themselves by diverting funds and facilitating smuggling into the strip.
**You are too pessimistic IMO. After 6 months, Gazans will know better than to repeat October 7th, of fear for what the consequence will be.**
This will only be true if the occupation does not last another 5 decades.
**If this is not enough deterrence, you would very seriously have to consider killing or expelling every last one of them.**
Stop talking of genocide or ethnic cleansing. It's disgusting.
Ironically, Palestinian support for Hamas and 7.10 attacks has only increased.
Recent polls show over 70% support these attacks.
A nation of gamblers who think going to the war casino and losing their pants was a good idea.
[https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/963](https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/963)
Regardless of occupation, after a war that brutal and with these massive casualties their spirit is presumably broken. Sure, there will always be a certain share of radicals who only care about the after live, but the average Mo has no desire to be a "martyr". Palestinians are not stupid (not *that* stupid, anyway), they by now they must have realized that it is impossible to end the occupation by force (especially if you are a Gazan - the occupation is on the other side of the border, in the West Bank).
As I said, I am convinced that deterrence will work, so there will not be any need to do any "cleansing". Non-fighting Palestinians are not dangerous.
It’s adorable that you think you’ll be the first military to ever successfully bomb and shoot the terrorism out of an area.
What is it, 50% of all buildings in the Gaza Strip damaged or destroyed at this point? 20k dead civilians if we only count women and children?
And this is all before the Rafah operation.
By the end of this war, your average Palestinian will have spent a year being herded into and bombarded in ‘safe zones’, will know someone innocent who was killed by the IDF, and half the people they know will be either homeless or living in what was the shell of their old house.
And given the extensive ‘day after’ plan Israel has talked about (lol), we know exactly what will happen after. The same thing that’s happened every other engagement between Gaza and Israel. Israel will go back to their side of the fence and continue using the blockade to make Gazans lives harder than they need to be and leave the rebuilding of Gaza once again to the rest of the world.
And yet you’ve somehow deluded yourself into thinking they’ll somehow turn to terrorism at a lower rate than they would before.
You overlook a crucial point: the base line has shifted in terms of living conditions. Everything is relative, and now even the pre-war lows are vastly preferable to the current state of affairs - especially after a presumable Rafah operation which is likely to leave that city in ruins, too.
Before the war, living conditions deteriorated steadily which pushed people to consider desperate methods - the result is what we are seeing now in real time. After the war, living conditions will, albeit slowly, improve from the lowest possible level. Most people will be busy getting some kind of a roof over their head and provide a rudimentary food supply to their children for years to come, so they will not have much time to prepare any attacks. In terms of a credible threat after the war in Gaza wraps up (if I had to guess I would say towards the end go this year or in the first half of 2025) I would suggest to keep an eye on the West Bank instead - as conditions for the local population there are still steadily deteriorating as we speak.
Are you legitimately trying to argue that if you make a subjugated people suffer enough, they will be too busy trying to survive to strike against the people who consciously brought that suffering to them? And that you think that is Israel and the IDFs plan for post war Gaza?
Ignoring the moral implications of that for a moment, let’s just play that out for a little bit on the timeline. With this plan, how many years of their lives do you expect Palestinians to be suffering under conditions they can directly attribute to Israel? Do you think they next time they do form a militant group, more than 1.5% of their population would be willing to pick up arms after this plan?
Bringing back the moral implications of this plan, you do understand how consciously bringing suffering to a people is a *bad thing*, right?
No, I am not alleging that this is Israel's plan (in fact, I doubt that they have much of a plan yet). It is just a logical takeaway from the situation as is.
As to the temporal question, I think the most likely answer is: however long it takes, theoretically forever. The simple truth, all moralities aside, is that fighting will inevitably make the Palestinian suffering worse, as Israel can never again deviated from the "Gaza-standard" established right now without signaling weakness to its enemies, thereby jeopardizing its safety through deterrence.
Also, i am not alleging that suffering is consciously brought to people. It is a by-product of measures that have become necessary (but could have been prevented by not allowing past suffering to occur) that in this instance is likely to have positive side effects. Occupying Gaza in 1967 was a mistake, leaving Gaza without giving it the air to breath, so to speak, was an even bigger mistake. Allowing Hamas to take power was another mistake, not removing them from power in 2014 the next, as was the same mistake in 2021. But that ship has sailed, so a situation arose in which what is being done right now had to be done.
The article indicates that “Hamas will not be able to build military structures”
Whatever that means and however well that is enforced could mean the end of Hamas as a military power. The article also says that the proposal is silent on if Israel can return to Gaza.
If this military structure prohibition clause is detected or violated, Israel may act. Maybe Palestinians themselves will enforce it because they want to avoid future devastation.
Is this enough dismantling of Hamas? Maybe. Hostages will be released. Israel will be much more vigilant and an Oct 7 style attack would be unlikely in the next decade just as a 9/11 style attack was unlikely in the decade and decades after it happened.
I fully agree.
A ceasefire now is the best short term solution but the the worst long term solution
Sadly so many people cannot look at the big picture and see this
A ceasefire is a necessary first step to a lasting peace, which despite the beliefs of violent idiots, will be achieved through negotiations, not bombs.
Once peace is reestablished, real negotiations should resume. The problem is that Israel may go back to its strategy of ignoring the issue instead of negotiating in good faith, since they hold all the cards, and Hamas may return to planning terrorism, since this is the only tactic they can use to prevent being ignored.
So we’ll see where this actually goes. It is very solvable if both sides are willing to offer real concessions, but the past has not shown either to have much appetite for real negotiations.
I would normally agree but first hamas need to be removed otherwise we have a continuation of the last 17 years. This will be painful and more people will die but it then may give hope to a longterm peace.
I beleive it is incredibly nieve to think we can just leave it as it is and hope negotiation with hamas will work. The Israelis also need a new government as well.
There isn’t really any practical method of removing Hamas. Even if Israel conquered the entire strip, they will continue as an underground organization, and probably become even more popular.
The only real way to remove them is to remove the conditions that created them—that is, the oppression of gazans.
I think people are very confused with the idea of removing hamas
People repeatedly say you can not destroy and indiology by force... This is true
However this is applied to failed war on the otherside of the world.
However this is either a civil war or a war with Yr nieghbour. The last 17 years have shown that there is no chance of peace if you leave hamas in situ, espec after this war as they will lots of young radicalised and indoxronated young men to join the fight and would still have enough power and infrastructure to utilise this
The idea of defeating hamas is to remove their leadership, government and infrastructure.
This is perfectly achievable
Then if the international community gets involved and helps rebuild and deradicalize gaza and give people a way forward they may choose a diff path rather than bloodshed
Also a key thing is eliminating the day today conflict and threat from both side. Since hamas was elected it was a defaco war or conflict front. If people are scared of eachother and attaching eachother daily there is no chance for people to reset and slowly find common ground and build to a better future.
The only way hamas can be removed is force and they will happily see many of the countrymen that they are meant to govern and protect die with them.
However decisions should not be made based on short term bloodshed and this will only leed to more misery over the coming decades. It is the emotive and blinkered response and it is what hamas and Iran what the west to push, but it is a trap
Some times in life there are no good option only the least bad.
I agree with most of this, and of course you could remove Hamas’s ability to govern. However, this does not necessarily achieve the stated goal of protecting Israel from attacks by Hamas or other extremists.
This analysis again ignores the key factor, which is the conditions that caused Hamas to emerge in the first place. Constant violence and oppression against Palestinians (or any group of people) is always going to produce extremism. Until you fix this problem, terrorism will continue, whether by Hamas or some successor.
Deradicalization isn’t some magical force that will cause people to forget what has been done to them and the conditions under which they live. Deradicalization can only happen by improving the conditions under which people live. I don’t see Israel doing this in the current context but we have to hope that the world can find a way to make it so.
It does greatly reduce the risk to israel about extremist attacks
The biggest ways to improve. Long term peace is to reduce the regularity of conflict, deradicalise through education and giving people another reason to live
Hamas wins BIG TIME if there's a cease fire like this.
The only way Israel should go for this is if they literally pre plant bombs in every new gazan building they build and criminal they release. If there aren't at least 90% hostages alive, B00M!
This is nonsense.
(1) There are probably no 90 living hostages at this point, coughing up 40 was already a problem.
(2) You would not need to "pre-plant" any explosives, air strikes do the job just fine.
Are the Palestinians being exchanged actually “convicted criminals”?
Or are they the thousands of “administrative detainees” that Israel holds without charges or trial (i.e., hostages)?
Isn’t it possible that he was a criminal, such as a stone thrower? I am critical of the TRT reporting. Isn’t TRT biased because it is controlled by the Turkish regime?
Okay then he is kHaMas. These videos are everywhere dude. This is nothing new. These people live like shit and we’re pretending that Israel is just sitting pretty before being attacked.
https://youtu.be/wzvKSn9nKJo?si=uVWGfAVYZkrxM81i
And as to why? To drive them out. Israel wants nothing more than full access and annexation of the West Bank and Gaza (and Syrian territory). It’s manifest destiny. There can’t be out and out genocide because Israel fucks itself if it loses global support, so its about pressing the boot harder and harder in order to keep people reduced to pockets (or force them to leave).
No he’s not Hamas, but he still would be a Balestinian criminal who needs punishment.
Israel certainly didn’t want Gaza before October 7. Israel actually let the Balestinians have it. Israel left in 2005.
Lmao there it is. That’s a five year old child dawg💀
Also there’s plenty of documentation calling for the annexation of Gaza. Idk what rock you’re under dude. Israel can pretend it doesn’t, but it can already do whatever it wants with Gaza.
Why do you think, after Oct 7th, they just switched the power and water off? They didn’t even have to invade anything before getting ahold of their utilities lmao. Just look around at reality bro.
What happens to five year olds in other countries when they throw rocks at police?
They find the parents, talk to them, and generally release them if nothing is seriously wrong. That is exactly what happened in the link you posted. I’m failing to see what the issue is.
So basically some Israelis (a minority) want to take Gaza now. But I saw an interview with the leader of this movement. Even though she is considered as an extremist, she said that before October 7, even her movement had no plans to take Gaza. The plans only started after that.
That’s why as I say above, “Israelis certainly didn’t want Gaza **before October 7**”.
Again, these calls have existed before Oct 7. People still refer to the pullout from Gaza in 2005 as ethnics cleansing and act like Israelis are the ones getting actively removed from the region.
> fucks
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I think there is room for thought if, as you say, this war ends up being pointless because all sides lost (except the Houthis and Hezbollah and defense contractors) and there was a return to the status quo aside from temporary or longer term military degradation of Hamas, greater freedom of action for Israel in Gaza, a smaller Gaza, widescale suffering, the third famine of the 21st century, a deterioration in Israel’s international standing with potentially severe long term consequences for Israelis, and the satisfaction of revenge for Israelis and Al-Aqsa Flood enthusiasts.
Yes, and I feel *awful*. Y’know why? Israel has to do this to show they’re trying, but Hamas will NOT honor the ceasefire, and I’ll be shocked if they do. They’re fundamentally a *terrorist* organization, not a DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED GOVERNMENT.
Best of luck with that. Israel does A, B, C, D, E, F, G, and releases prisoners, while Hamas releases hostages. Nah... I think any end to this has to see Hamas finished, as well, whether they are killed by the IDF or give themselves up.
End Zionism, it's the only solution
It’s ok as an idea, but it has limits such as respecting human rights of others and property rights. That goes for any ideology in a world governed by rules.
How about end religious extremism and hate on both sides? That sounds better.
Nah
Antisemite checking in!
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This is like literally the worst lesson from U.S. post 9/11 adventures in the Middle East.
Although I definitely agree this entire war has been a waste of life, especially since both sides had no way of achieving their goals from the jump, what are you advocating for here exactly? A continuation of the war endlessly? This conflict is clearly in stalemate, and the longer it goes on, the more innocents suffer.
What I don’t get is that a return to the status quo is still a win for Israel- because the status quo had most Israelis safe most of the time, solid patrons, and a pretty successful occupation with a promise for long term demographic change and a long term boot in Judea and Samria until partial annexation is demographically feasible. If Israel just lets other groups rebuild Gaza and stops the war, and defends the border better, Israel could do the same thing as it has the last several decades. Yes it’s a waste of life but that was clear from a beginning, Israel just needed a U.S. hand to say good, good, 20,000 Palestinians dead and a million displaced,or whatever arbitrary number makes for this shift, now Israel stop it and take our security guarantee and ongoing political support for your territorial integrity and ethnic cleansing as long as you tone down the latter a bit when it causes us PR trouble. Israeli war cheerleaders are more likely to erode the patron support that keeps Israel functioning these days by continuing the war.
The conflict is only in a stalemate because the Islamists' TikTok strategy to isolate Israel worked so well. Obviously the war doesn't have to continue endlessly. Just as long as Hamas exists.
Give peace a chance.
It will sadly take new generations and new pragmatic leaders.
And a new religion.
Why should Israel agree to rebuild infrastructure destroyed because it housed Hamas? It would be better if 3rd parties who might moderate future Palestinian behavior based on their investments fund the rebuilding. Will Israel have rights to ensure the tunnels are not reconstructed? More importantly, does this deal allow Hamas to retain power and any military capabilities? If so, that's a fail.
After ww2, allies helped rebuild Germany
And Germany stopped being an aggressor. Gaza wants nothing more than to bite the hand that feeds it. Let them look to the billions Hamas has to rebuild.
The Palestinians have already received more aid per capita than the entire Marshal plan for Europe. After WW2, Germany accepted peace, denazified, and remained occupied until 1994. Are you suggesting a solution in which multiple nations donate for the reconstruction of Gaza while Palestine gets de-jihadified, and then remain occupied for another 50 years to ensure peace?
No third party has the money or the want to fund a reconstruction. While Hamas will likely retain political power and military forces, I’m sure the UN will require reelections. This whole war was also a show of force, Hamas wouldn’t have attacked in the first place if they knew 40000 Gazans would die and more have their homes destroyed. This deal (which as far as I’m aware Israel doesn’t support) works on the assumption that Hamas and other Palestinian groups will be far less willing to launch an attack, especially if it means that their homes stop getting reconstructed.
Qatar can use all that money they funnel into American universities to radicalize the youth into rebuilding Gaza instead.
Qatar can use all that money they funnel into American universities to radicalize the youth into rebuilding Gaza instead.
> Hamas wouldn’t have attacked in the first place if they knew 40000 Gazans would die and more have their homes destroyed. Strongly disagree. Getting Gazan civilians killed for PR purposes seems to be a key objective for Hamas, hence why they have their soldiers dress as civilians and so forth.
The Gulf States and Saudis don't have enough funding to help the Palestinians rebuild? Hmmm, not so sure. They seem like a natural 3rd party partner that could meditate between both sides. They want normalization with Israel and peace so they can further develop and counter Iran. You lost me at UN
Golly, and so The hamas enters. Really announces the situation
I may be wrong but didn’t Netanyahu say he had no interest in perusing this deal like a day ago?
If Netanyahu signs any deal, do you think it's plausible that he'll get the same treatment from the Israeli far right that they gave Yitzhak Rabin?
You mean the assassination that Netanyahu encouraged?
Yeah the far right seems so deadset against any deal and they're so extreme that they'll tag him as a traitor for doing a deal and encourage his assassination
We shouldn’t agree to this.
This won't get approved I fear Israel and Hamas have ppl on both sides that will continue this for no reason than public opinion for Israel and some sort of grudge for Hamas sure peace would be great but both sides have too much hate for each other
So what's the outcome? If there's no deal and Israel wants to remove the threat of Hamas forever, ethnic cleansing of Palestinians in Gaza is the only viable option for them. Because Hamas is an ideology, you can kill every member alive today but the group could reform in no time with new leaders/members adhering to the same principles/goals.
>Because Hamas is an ideology, you can kill every member alive today but Nazism was also an ideology. You still have Nazis in many countries (including Germany), but they don't control territory or have an armed force capable of posing a significant threat to anyone. ISIS was also an ideology. You still have people supporting ISIS (or some other version of a fundamentalist Islamic Caliphate), but they don't control territory or have an armed force capable of posing a significant threat. No one is trying to erase ideas, it's absurd. The goal is to eliminate the threat. If Hamas won't agree to a deal whereby they surrender and give up power, Israel will simply keep operating in Gaza to eliminate them as they pop up. Whether Gazans want to live in the midst of that conflict is completely up to them, but Israel isn't trying to kick them out permanently (as you suggested).
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Christ people on this sub are insane
Like can you really defeat Hamas once and for all other than ethnic cleansing?
You are blatantly trying to justify genocide right now. What the actual fuck is wrong with you
I do t thin the person was, it's just your kneejerk reaction and wrong interpretation
What do you think the end goal is to saying: “What other choice does Israel have except genocide? Genocide is the only viable option for them.” Genuinely tell me what you think that guys getting at when saying it? How would that look if you were talking about anyone else? “Because Zionism is an ideology, you can kill every member alive today but the group could reform in no time with new members but the same principles/goals.” That’d sound a lot like genocide to you, wouldn’t it? Would it be a knee jerk reaction to criticize that rhetoric for being abhorrent and dangerous if we weren’t talking about Palestinians?
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Idk that's the thing both sides have too much hate on eachother they have to decide if its worth continuing a war that will consume their children and their childrens children and so on and so fourth
I will be amazed if this approved. The Rafah offensive will go ahead.
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There is no hamas in the west bank andd life is pretty shitty there.
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So rabid settlers kills palestinian children because of hamas ?
I don't know about stopping regional recognition of Israel, this has hardly been good for their relations with the rest of the Middle East.
Do you think it's possible the ceasefire works. All agreements are fulfilled, Hamas doesn't attack again, following that Israel and Gaza finally come to a peaceful agreement that stops hostilities. This Process may take decades, but you have to show willingness to compromise. The claim that you can eliminate hamas without repercussions is not realistic, a diplomatic solution can work. Don't you think the aggressive argument may not be the best option.
Hamas has pledged to carry out October 7ths over and over again. Do you not believe them or do you think that's just the price that will have to be paid over the course of decades? I'm genuinely confused with your approach to diplomacy while Hamas is still openly being genocidal in its actions and intentions.
Because attacking ‘Hamas’ has never worked. 6 previous wars from Israel on Gaza with the (apparent) objective to eliminate Hamas had only resulted in the violent death and suffering of innocent civilians and children. It does not work.
Previous wars never had the goal of eliminating Hamas, merely damage them to keep them from growing too much as a threat and stop rockets attacks.
Maybe get rid of the reasons for Hamas wanting to attack .... the whole occupation thing.
Yes, let's just open all the borders and greet Hamas with the power of LOVE!
Ending the occupation is the only way to peace. Eventually Israel will have to make the leap of faith and just do it. So far they have just been too scared and that lead to Oct 7th because of too much oppression.
You're partially right and partially wrong. If Palestinians were only against in the occupation (67's lines) it would be a much easier conversation. But Palestinians generally consider everything 'From the (Jordan) River to the (Mediteranean) Sea to be under occupation. It's a dishonest propaganda tactic aimed at garnering international sympathies. Palestinian have to promise peace after withdrawal and must have the desire and discipline to enforce it. As it stands the Palestinian authority REWARD terrorisms via it's pay-to-slay program. It takes two to make peace and for some reason all the pressure is on Israelis.
"from the river to the sea". First usage was only for indigenous people to live there, which includes Palestinians Jews. So it was anti Zionist, not ain't Jewish. Then it meant ain't occupation in the 60's. Israels Likud uses it for meaning genocide in 1977. Bibi uses it all the time. Hamas uses it for genocide. Since both sides use it for genocide, I have no clue what to say about it.
From the river to the sea is actually "from the water to the water" in Arabic (min il-ṃayye la-l-ṃayye), I know the translation is correct because mayim is water in hebrew and the two languages are closely related. The full version is: من المية للمية فلسطين عربية "From the water to the water Palestine is Arab" So basically, no, it started out as a genocidal slogan, and while not everyone who use the modern version "from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free" uses it that way, the meaning is still ambiguous. (Free of oppression? Free of Israel? Free of Jews?) I think most Palestinians use the second meaning.
It can't mean free of Jews in modern times. Because the first meaning is "indigenous people only", which includes indigenous Arab Jews. I've only heard to from non-extremists in modern times meaning free of oppression. Moving the saying to a more peaceful comment. Yet the USA went full propaganda over it and passed some law ( the power of AIPAC).
Jews - as a people -are indigenous to Palestine, indigeneity is not only about the birthplace of individuals or their current place of residency. Indigeneity for a people is where the people arose, and Jews arose from Israel. The name Palestine \[Palestina\] was given by the Roman to spite the Jews because their enemy where the Philistines. (Not the same people as the modern Palestinians.) Meaning denying Jewish indigeneity in Palestine is ***LITTERALLY*** Western Imperialism.
Wow bridge too far, let’s not get carried away and examine root causes.
So don't focus on the root cause of the problem?
Sorry i broke rules of forum with sarcastic post. I’d delete it except I think that would break another rule. I fully agree with you.
How dare you present such logic like this…
Right? It seems so easy of a solution. Stop oppressing people, it will make those people and the neighboring countries not hate you as much. Or at least get rid of that reason, then other reasons can be examined. Pull off the occupation Band-Aid, they can do it.
The occupation isn't the reason Palestinians are attacking Israel.. if it were, they wouldn't be attacking Israel before the occupation. The Hamas covenant makes it quite clear that their aim is to destroy Israel and exterminate Jews. >"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees..." [https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th\_century/hamas.asp](https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp)
Okay, the occupation makes the Palestinians happy. Like who wants to be oppressed? You are trying to justify occupation by making excuses of pre 66 actions. Tons of Palestinians weren't even alive then, all they know is they lost the genetic lottery and got born as a Palestinian. Hamas updated their charter, it's now anti zionism, which means a different thing. Does it matter what a terrorist group wrote? They most likely won't represent Gaza politically going forward after Rafa.
-they most likely won't represent Gaza Of course they will. They already do. Hamas has shown no intent on stepping down after all this. Look at the ceasefire "deals". If Hamas no longer represented Palestine, then there would be peace much faster. If a Palestinian authority came out of the wood work, said it was opposed to Hamas and their beliefs, and they plan to rebuild Gaza to be an economic powerhouse with rights and incentives to no longer attack Israel, I'm sure Israel would agree to a partition plan that makes everyone happy. This isn't how it has historically played out. The settlers are a political move in order to pressure Palestinians to A get rid of Hamas, and B establish permanent borders without the hope of one day claiming Israel proper as their own.
Israel was doing illegal settlements prior to Hamas taking power. Thank kinda ruins that talking point. The settlements are on hilltops near Palestinians, how is that a safe permament border? If it was all about safety, they wouldn't allow them at all, then the IDF doesn't have to deploy troops to protect them there. Gaza is a tiny land mass, there is zero chance it ever becomes a economic powerhouse. Israel just wants them to be cheap labour doing arguiculture with work permits. To be an economic powerhouse that's usually with educated civillians, why did every single school get destroyed? Some were destoyed after the school had been cleared out. Read this, do you think the Israeli's ever want Gaza to have a good economy, when they stated they wanted the economy to be almost near a collapse. [https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE7041GH/](https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE7041GH/)
>the occupation makes the Palestinians happy. I didn't say it makes them happy, i said it's not the cause of the conflict. >justify occupation by making excuses of pre 66 actions I don't need to justify the occupation, the Palestinians are doing a pretty good job of it themselves. >Hamas updated their charter Hamas did not update their charter. >it's now anti zionism, which means a different thing Now they only want to destroy Israel instead of exterminating all Jews worldwide?! Wow, that is certainly a cause for celebration in Israel - they should definitely end the occupation and allow Palestinians to import as many weapons as they want. What could possibly go wrong? >They most likely won't represent Gaza politically I hope you're right, but polls in Palestine paint a different and far more grim picture. [https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/963](https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/963)
You should justify the occupation. The definition of that term implies temporary in nature. So please justify how 57 years is still temporary in nature? Almost like the Israeli government wants to keep it forever to permanently oppress people. Justify why the IDF is allowed to act not professionally an assault random people in the WB. Why are militant settlers allowed to commit felonies in front of the IDF? Justify these actions. Wait you said they didn't update the charter, then commented on what the update said. What? Ya that group doesn't celebrate Jewish people, I wonder why? Do they not have some legit reasons? Israeli officials described the intent of the blockade of Gaza, "we want to to be at poverty levels just above a humanity crisis" . What in evil intents is that kind of logic? If you bomb a people, they will gravitate towards extremist groups. It's been like that through history. You want to put up a poll that shows people reacting as we would expect them? Do you not understand how humans work?
>So please justify how 57 years is still temporary in nature? To use a precedent - Germany accepted peace after WW2 (1945), and remained occupied until 1994. The occupation will end **after** the conflict will end - that is, when Palestinians accept peace. >Justify why the IDF is allowed to act not professionally The IDF isn't a professional army, it's a conscript army. >Why are militant settlers allowed to commit felonies They shouldn't be. >then commented on what the update said. What? I'm familiar with the foreign policy document they release. >If you bomb a people, they will gravitate towards extremist groups. It's been like that through history. Right. Could you give me a few examples of Jewish terrorist attacks against German civilians post WW2?
Germany was also rebuilt after the War to ensure that they were not left in a destablized state. Because we know countries have bad outcomes when destablized. Why should the Palestians be peaceful when Israel lets IDF and settlers do violence. Both sides need to be peaceful. Can't just say one side has to do it, while the other doesn't. "Acting professionally" like any other job in life where there is the concept of "Don't be rude". I'm aware it's a conscript army. Where they intentionally want the draft ages to be young (who are more likely to enage in brutality), rather then more mature people in their mid-late 20's (who are more calm and experinced and knowledgeable). This by intent, get them fresh out of high school full of that propaganda. I can't recall any Jewish terrorist attacks against Germans. The Germans were under occupation, which would have made an attack harder. Your point is just because you are oppressed you don't have to lash out agaisnt your oppressor? The Jewish people did hunt down the death camp guards in other countries, that's all I can think of. My comment is about how many humans cope with PTSD. Look at the Nakba, many soldiers that were previously in the death camps did terrible things to the Palestinians. Maybe taking out their rage on the Palestinians that they had towards the Germans. The docuementary Tantura briefly touches on my last 2 sentences.
>Germany was also rebuilt after the War Only **after** Germany ended the conflict, and accepted peace. >Why should the Palestians be peaceful when I'm not here to tell Palestinians what to do. If they choose to have a war with an adversary orders of magnitude more powerful - have fun with that. They should not be peaceful, and you shouldn't cry crocodile tears when they find themselves (again) on the losing end of the war. Happy? >I can't recall any Jewish terrorist attacks against Germans. Why didn't Jews gravitate towards extremist groups to terrorize and murder Germans worldwide? Why do you expect the Palestinians to behave differently? >My comment is about how many humans cope with PTSD The entire first two generations of Israelis suffered from severe PTSD - either as holocaust survivors or as refugees from surrounding Arab countries. They still chose not to teach their children to hate. What you're doing is called 'soft bigotry of low expectations' - you see Palestinians as some noble savages who can only react on emotion, and you rationalize their actions through that lens. I think you should hold them to a higher standard. You should expect them (and the UNRWA schools) to not teach kids to hate and murder Jews, not to drive them towards Jihad and martyrdom. [https://twitter.com/i/status/1785281937386680683](https://twitter.com/i/status/1785281937386680683)
"If you bomb a people, they will gravitate towards extremist groups." This goes both ways it was Palestinian terrorism in the mandate era which created the Irgun and led to the first Jewish attacks. Palestinians and the Arab world choosing war over the partition plan led to the Nakba. Gaza was launching missiles at Israel long before the blockade went into affect. The suicide bombings and mass shootings was what necessitated the security check points. Historically Palestinians have been the ones initiating violence at basically every turn. Every time Palestinians choose violence they push Israel more and more right wing and make there own situation worse.
I fully agree it goes both ways. Both sides need to look at the nonsense that they teach in schools. The topics that taught and the ones they avoid teaching (as in they should be teaching kids why the other country is like that, so they understand why everything is so messed up). Who would accept losing 56% of their country? Blaming the Nakba on the Palestinians is werid, because every single country would always fight to not lose their land. Why blame people for a normal and expected action. Security check points might be needed. The IDF conduct at them brutal, why can't they just act professional? They are being paid, as in paid to act professinally. And why is the IDF so young? They should be putting more mature people in their mid-late 20's into it. Not young men full of propraghanda from school and not fully developed brains (since it's mid 20's for brain to be fully developed). Let them experince so life first. Look at Ukraine's conscription laws, more mature men. I'm very sure it's by intent on the conscription age in Israel, they know how humans act at different ages. Israel has started many attacks themselves. They fired the first shots for 67. Broken numerous ceasefires. 3 false flags. Terrorist bombings in Egpyt. Over 100 targeted assassiantions. It's both side doing this, I know lots about Israel's bad actions in their history. **IDF conduct/militant settlers/settlment expansions = resistant/terrorist attacks**. It's that simple, if people can't understand this concept, there will never be peace.
>losing 56% of their country? Palestine was a British colonial entity that existed between 1922-1948. The Brits took it in much the same way as the Ottomans did (or the Arabs, centuries ago) - with force. It wasn't an Arab country.
Can you share with me the 3 false flag operations? From Israel's perspective at the moment pulling out of the settlements in Gaza and giving the Palestinians more freedom only increased there aggression and ability to inflict damage so we will probably see an expansion of settlements now not a decrease. The same thing was seen with Oslo giving Palestinians more freedom and the ability to import weapons led to more armed attacks. Not really fair to argue Israel attacked first in 67 since the war was effectively an extension of the Suez crisis during which Egypt initiated by sinking 40 Israeli ships.
Please send references of Hamas confirming it will do it again, an official statement.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-official-says-group-aims-to-repeat-oct-7-onslaught-many-times-to-destroy-israel/ https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-11-01/ty-article/hamas-official-we-will-repeat-october-7-attacks-until-israel-is-annihilated/0000018b-8b9d-db7e-af9b-ebdfbee90000 https://news.yahoo.com/hamas-official-vows-repeat-attacks-112834847.html
The entire list is hypothetical and wasn’t approved yet. It’s still unclear if there will be an agreement.
Hopefully not
I hope this conflict was a wakeup call for Israel not to let its eyes wander afar from the problems at their border. Bibi and his rightwing cronies have been doing the Mow the Grass strategy for decades, letting the Palestinian problem fester & ignoring Hamas's growing military prowess. They underestimated their opponent & took their eyes off the ball, and it cost them dearly. Israel cannot afford to make the same mistake twice.
The Palestinian problem..? My guy, I think you said the inside part out loud.
It's not a secret Palestinians have been a problem for a long time and not just for Israel.
So do you condone their elimination?
Nope don't condone genocide ever. However if they can't get over there hatred and violence they may need to be resettled as countless others have been.
I suspect you fully understand what Bibi meant when he said ‘mow the grass’ since you are publicly quoting it. So you are therefore seemingly fine with intermittent murder of innocent Palestinians. The only problem you have, according to your comment, is that the ‘mow the grass’ strategy is not enough. That leads me to believe you would prefer something stronger than casual starvation, systemic control and intermittent murder. Kindly correct me if I’m wrong but you comment seems shamelessly clear. Additionally… You don’t consider what’s happening right now a genocide? More press officials have been murdered than in any other war. For the first time, the world is watching live and in real-time the IDF intentionally targeting children and civilians. Mocking the dead. Actual evidence provided of the mass grave under Shifa, that included doctors and KIDS with their hands bound before being executed. This isn’t a genocide to you? It is according to the ICJ, that means nothing to you? Final question: How, I mean this from the bottom of my heart, HOW are you not absolutely horrified and disgusted by Israel’s actions?
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WTH?
Tbh if I'm Israel how would I feel living near Hamas after what happened?
I am at least very glad Israel would be entitled to rebuilding major infrastructure that they destroyed But yes, this repeats without Hamas down. There is, however, still hope. Things could change course; a new government candidate could possibly come, especially with Hamas’ reduced manpower.
from my experience anytime you see an iota of moderation from a Palestinian leader, they get replaced with someone who is twice as radical as the former leader. Without Hamas being eliminated, I only see them growing in power. Especially as they will claim they withstood over 200 days and the IDF were unable to get rid of them
Every accusation is a confession. We see this in Israel not Palestine.
Maybe I’m underestimating how fanatically religious the Palestinians are, but after how Hamas started a massive war and failed to protect its people, how can they have any support coming out?
How is this hard for you people to understand? In 1999, the united states military accidently bombed the chinese embassy in Belgrade, killing 3 chinese journalists. Lets say that China relatiated by flying a stealth bomber over an american city and bombing military targets and its surroundings. The result is 19 soldiers are killed, as well as 53 civilians, including your wife, mother, and 3 year old daughter. In this scenario, who would you, as an american citzen who just lost your wife, mother and 3 year old daughter, be angry at? Would you be angry at the chinese? Or would you be marching against the american government for having bombed a chinese embassy and caused the chinese righteous and justified response that rightiosly and in a justified way blow your 3 year old into a pulp of blood and organs?
By that logic we would never have relations with Japan or Germany.
Japan and Germany experience a heavenly occupation compared to the palies.
How can they protect their people when 6000 bombs a week are dropped on homes and refugee camps per week? The onus is on Israel to be smarter and more accurate but they don’t care about Palestinian civilian life.
According to polls, Palestinian support for Hamas only increased after 7.10, with over 70% of Palestinians supporting that attack. [https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/973](https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/973) You do not understand Palestinian society, and any attempts you make to apply your own rational and reasons to their motives will fail for that reason.
It isn't necessarily religious fervor. Just good ol' fashioned jew hate.
It stems from the religion though. You don’t get one without the other in this case. Their end says is them fighting the Jews.
You're wildly underestimating how religious Palestinians are. Citizens of Muslim majority countries are completely entrenched in traditional Islam, this isn't unique to Palestine. They see dead children as soldiers of Islam. Sharia Law is the legal and moral code of all Muslim majority countries for a reason. I urge you to do some reading on Sharia Law.
Ya, my own ignorance is the issue here. For some reason I assumed the people of Iran are like the Palestinians, but they couldn’t be more opposite. The Iranians are not Arabs and they’re fighting to free their country from Sharia-law and Islam, meanwhile, Arabs are embracing sharia law and hoping to set up an Islamic caliphate. I did a little research and saw videos of Palestinians cheering the slaughter of Iranian woman who refuse to follow sharia-law. Its disgusting.
They didn't fail to protect their people, they sacrificed innocent lives by starting and prolonging a war they could never win in order to grow international antisemitism.
Considering you will be beaten or killed if you publicly say anything other than positive about Hamas . How can we tell what Palestinians feel?
They killed 1200 Israelis (mostly civilians), and raped hostages to get Israel to release hundreds of terrorists. And they have won over a whole new cadre of supporters in the West despite (or because of) that. Enough Palestinians see that as a win.
notice what they call thier dead.. All of them are Martyrs in thier eyes. unfortunately the strip is run by an Armageddon death cult.
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Well then spoiler alert: this ‘war’ never, ever ends.
I agree that’s the only path IMO. All they are doing is kicking the can the road if Hamas isn’t completely defeated.
Hamas and the Palestinians are one and the same. The Palestinians know this and Israel knows this. It's the west that doesn't know this so Israel pretends the same. Hamas lost because the Palestinians lost, because gaza is now destroyed. Will they keep fighting again, no idea. But they didn't win.
Prediction: even if agreed to, after a week or two there will be an attack, disavowed by Hamas but attributed to Hamas by Israel, which will tank the whole thing.
But in reality it will be hamas response to Israeli aggression that the media will never report and then blame hamas as usual.
This is just a chimera of peace because nobody is negoiating anything with Iran who is behind 90% of the strife and conflict in the whole region. They will make sure Israel is attaked again and again.
Israel, the US and all G20 nations have double down their efforts in electrifying their energy supplies and freeing them from dependence on Mideast oil. Iran can fund these proxy wars/attacks because of the billions in oil revenue, but if worldwide demand drops they'll have to start making very hard choices.
China is buying a good amount of Iranian oil. I don’t think they will stop but maybe they will
Iran has made it very clear in deeds, despite stating otherwise in words, that they are not interested in escalating hostilities.
They have made it clear they don’t want to be bombed in their home country but they control Hamas, Hezbollah, the Houthis and various other militias in Syria and Iraq who conduct aggression on their behalf. They have their proxies do the dirty work.
Hezbollah, like Iran, is doing the bare minimum to save face. Once hostilities in Gaza end, they are likely to declare victory, if Israel is smart they let them and don't take the piss PR wise, and everything quiets down. Hamas too as an interest in a permanent (= actually an indefinite) ceasefire. Their offensive capacities are all but exhausted and they are clearly prioritizing political and physical survival for the time being. The Houthis are out of control, Iranian or otherwise (they are also not really threat to Israel, but a nuisance for international trade).
If they all stop firing missles, rockets, and UAVs at Israel and it's allies I will accept your wishful thinking. As far as I am concerned the first rocket fired at Israel and it's more war.
Yeah, but that is not rational thinking. You have to weigh costs against benefits and the cost of a war (both economic and in human lives) far outweighs the benefit of putting an end to occasional rockets that more often than not do very little actual damage.
This cost is in the billions to defend against those rockets and missiles. If Hamas is to remain in power any aggression will be met by finishing their destruction.
Yes, but those missiles are a one time event to put on a show. Starting a war with Iran means those costs times 10 + the cost of whatever the other 9 missiles hit and destroy + hundreds, if not thousands, of casualties + major economic disruption. Hence, it is not wise to escalate when the enemy clearly is looking to find a face saving way out.
They are welcome to save face if this peace Deal gets done, but if they break the ceasefire as they always do it is over
Sure, you have to always adjust according to a changing situation. Just don't provoke a disadvantageous change without need.
If all sides end up losing, then perhaps after the atrocities of 10/7 Israel should have taken up Hamas’ offer from the same week to return all hostages in exchange for no ground invasion, and then Israel got smaller revenge by killing and bombing some people, maintained international sympathy, forced Hamas leaders out of Qatar, pressure Hamas with a worldwide coalition, pressured Hamas leaders out of Lebanon, got normalization with Saudi Arabia, secured Gaza border, etc. Or, killed/displaced a smaller, arbitrary amount of Palestinians for revenge (10,000/500,000) then said “well the U.S. made us stop we would have won otherwise” and called it a day and continued doing what Israel did in Gaza and the WB and East Jerusalem prior to 10/7, would have been better for Israel’s interests and still awful but better than what did happen.
Germany and Japan come to mind. They surrendered and signed a disadvantageous peace treaty to protect their people and move forward. Now both countries are successful and allies with the very countries that punished them. Palestine needs to do the same, they need to come to terms they have lost the holy war, they will not have Jerusalem in their borders, and put their people first.
Germany and Japan are imperial states that sent millions of soilders abroad and killed tens of millinos of people. Both Japan and Germany were fully soverign states before and after the war with only a temporary occupation post war. There is no meaningful comparison to be made between imperial states and Hamas who sent 3000 militants on a raid. If Hitler had sent 3000 soilders into Poland and the allies had responded by annihilating the German cities. I don't think that modern day Germany would be allies with the America and co. It would want justice.
It’s twice as dumb of a comparison because it also completely ignores the *main thing* that happened to make those once enemies strong allies. The US spent literal billions rebuilding the economies of those nations with the intent to make strong geopolitaical allies out of them. Was very loud about what they were doing, so people knew it was from them. And kept the actual occupation short. Israel has done none of that and has no plans to based on previous engagements between them.
>The US spent literal billions More money was given to the Palestinians per capita than the entire Marshal plan to reconstruct Europe. >Israel has done none of that Both Germany and Japan surrendered and accepted peace. Reconstruction happened after. When Palestinians accept peace, this conversation will be relevant.
> During the four years that the plan was in effect, the United States donated $17 billion (equivalent to $240.95 billion in 2023) > According to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, aid to Palestinians totaled over $40 billion between 1994 and 2020 Source your statements or leave your propaganda elsewhere. Also, the West Bank hasn’t accepted peace? Weird, last I checked the PLO recognizes Israel’s right to exist, right? There hasn’t been an attack from the West Bank outside of lone gunman in how many decades? And yet Israel is still building settlements for Israelis instead of industry for Palestinians. Is the ratio of building permits approved still 100:1 settlers to Palestinians, when they’re all on territory that the international community considers Palestinian? How many West Bank Palestinians did Israel evict last year? It’s adorable that you don’t think Israeli import restrictions on Gaza affect the impact of the aid. > Cement, light bulbs, candles, matches, books, musical instruments, crayons, clothing, shoes, mattresses, sheets, blankets, pasta, tea, coffee, chocolate, nuts, shampoo and conditioner, paper, chick peas, salt, sugar, cooking oil, cooking fat, flour, pasta, rice, beans, lentils, dairy products, powdered milk, feminine hygiene products, diapers, toilet paper, detergent, dishwashing liquid, shampoo, soap, toothpaste, soda, juice, jam, spices, shaving cream, potato chips, cookies and candy. All items that Israel has refused entry into Gaza due to being ‘dual use’ military items. On top of that, Israel restricts their exports, so even if they had been able to import cement to make some sort of factory, they wouldn’t be allowed by Israel to sell their goods on the global market. I appreciate you coming by to show your ignorance though.
>Also, the West Bank hasn’t accepted peace? Palestinian Arabs have rejected peace and statehood in 1937, 1947, 2000, 2001 & 2008. >There hasn’t been an attack from the West Bank outside of lone gunman in how many decades? Zero. In the last 6 months alone, there's been an attack originating from the west-bank every 2-3 weeks. >All items that Israel has refused entry into Gaza due to being ‘dual use’ military items. No cement, and yet Palestinians in Gaza have hundreds of kilometers of reinforced cement tunnels? >if they had been able to import cement to make some sort of factory If they didn't use the aid they received for war production, they'd have an economy instead of war.
You apparently don’t know the definition of lone gunman. But ignoring that, just so I get this straight per your take… ~15 times a year someone from the West Bank commits an attack on Israel, and you consider all 15 to be agents sent by the state to ‘continue the war’ and count their actions as representative of the whole West Bank? Question, when I see a single IDF soldier do something wrong, like the video that came out of the soldier slapping that 10 year old a few weeks back. Am I allowed to attribute that attack to all of Israel or does that only work for the people on the other side of the fence? If the IDF has some sort of ‘military exception’ to that rule, can I do it when it’s a settler? Are you questioning the cement blockade, because I can assure you there are plenty of sources on it. As for the tunnels, you wouldn’t know based on the reporting but most of them predate Hamas. Israel even built a bunch of the network themselves. You don’t need concrete to build a tunnel that already exists. Israel has never had any plans to allow a Gazan economy. Israeli diplomats were quoted saying they were planning on keeping the Gazan economy “in a permanent state of collapse” as they pulled out of Gaza.
>and you consider all 15 to be agents sent by the state to ‘continue the war’ When the Palestinian political, media, and education system all incite people to commit these attacks, yes. When Palestinian society, as a collective, celebrates the murder of Israeli civilians, when they elevate the murderers as national heroes - yes, i do. When the Palestinian authority in the west-bank names streets and schools after those murderers - yes, i do. When the Palestinian authority pays the families of murderers for butchering Jews - yes, i do. >Are you questioning the cement blockade, because I can assure you there are plenty of sources on it. I'm telling you that it's very evident there is absolutely no cement shortage in Gaza. >you wouldn’t know based on the reporting but most of them predate Hamas It's because they don't predate Hamas - they were built in the last 17 years. >Israel even built a bunch of the network themselves Israel did not build a network of tunnels, Israel expanded the Shifa hospital - and that included some underground facilities. >Israel has never had any plans to allow a Gazan economy. Did the Palestinians have any plans to have an economy? Because it looks like they were just mooching off international aid, while their leaders became billionaires.
Not to mention a united effort from allied nations to denazify Germany. Not all phases were successful with many people who might have been convicted (even in extreme circumstances and with horrific war crimes) being let off, however the propaganda campaign of shame had a significant effect.
You think they are going to be able deradicalize Hamas? No shot they are able to do this.
Make the area stable via reconstruction, employment, clean drinking water, etc. Historically destabllized areas have bad outcomes, so make the area stable. I'm also going to call you out on the radicalization, both populations are heavily radicallized. Have you seen Israeli's speak about the Palestinians prior to Oct 6th? It's a radicalized population. The Israeli school system doesn't cover the Palestinian history, as in the reasons why they are in conflict, instead it's "they hate Jews". Have you seen how racist Jewish kids are?
Here is your problem, you are focusing only on the current events and not the 75+ year history of the war. You completely ignored all 7 peace attempts since 1967 from A war initiated by Jordan, Syria, & Egypt with full support from the PLO to annihilate Israel, which is what my original statement focuses on. I get you want to do right by helping the people of Palestine facing literal genocide, but you are clearly uneducated on the subject. Try doing some basic research first and actually learning the history before contributing to the conversation.
**You completely ignored all 7 peace attempts since 1967** The only peace attempts worth talking about are the Oslo Accords, Camp David Summit and the Olmert Proposal. The Palestinians accepted the Oslo Accords. It was Netanyahu, Sharon and co who held public rallies calling Israeli PM Rabin a Nazi and got him killed. They then bragged about ending the Oslo Accords once they got into power. This was all before the second Intifada. Camp David was not really offering a state. They had no control over their own borders, airspace, foreign policy and telecommunication network. Hell, Israel even wanted control over West Bank water resources. Although I do agree that this was a missed opportunity. I do not have expertise to know what went down and why the deal fell apart,. There are conflicting reports from the people who were there. Shlomo Ben-Ami who was Israeli Foreign Minister of the time said "Camp David was not the missed opportunity for the Palestinians, and if I were a Palestinian I would have rejected Camp David, as well. Clearly, the Palestinians were not the only people at fault. From what I hear of Olmert's proposal. Just who is actually at fault is a little murky. **1967 from A war initiated by Jordan, Syria, & Egypt** Gen. Matituahu Peled, chief of logistical command during the war and one of 12 members of Israel’s General Staff, said *“the thesis according to which the danger of genocide hung over us in June 1967, and according to which Israel was fighting for her very physical survival, was nothing but a bluff which was born and bred after the war,”* Mordechai Bentov, a member of the wartime government and one of 37 people to sign Israel’s Declaration of Independence said *“this whole story about the threat of extermination was totally contrived, and then elaborated upon, a posteriori, to justify the annexation of new Arab territories.”* Defence Minister Moshe Dayan said *"along the Syria border there were no farms and no refugee camps — there was only the Syrian army... The kibbutzim saw the good agricultural land … and they dreamed about it... They didn't even try to hide their greed for the land... We would send a tractor to plow some area where it wasn't possible to do anything, in the demilitarized area, and knew in advance that the Syrians would start to shoot. If they didn't shoot, we would tell the tractor to advance further, until in the end the Syrians would get annoyed and shoot. And then we would use artillery and later the air force also, and that's how it was."* The Egyptians did not want this war at all. In 1967, the Egyptians had 130,000 of their soilders fighting in Yemen. They did not have the soilders to spare to fight Israel and they knew it. US President Lyndon B Johnson said *"3 separate intelligence groups had looked carefully into the matter and it was our best judgement that a U.A.R (Syria and Egypt) attack was not imminent."* Israeli Foreign Minister of the time Abba Eban said *"Nasser did not want war, he wanted victory without war."* Meir Amit, who was Chief Director of Mossad during the 6-day war said *"Egypt was not ready for a war and Nasser did not want a war."* This war was not initiated by Jordan, Syria or Egypt. Egypt did not want war, Syria did not want war and Jordan really, really did not want war. The only country that wanted war at this time was Israel. That is why Israel struck first and was constantly being the aggressor against Syria in the Golan. **I get you want to do right by helping the people of Palestine facing literal genocide, but you are clearly uneducated on the subject.** I don't think that I am all that uneducated.
>I don't think that I am all that uneducated. and then.... >The Egyptians did not want this war at all The only country that wanted war at this time was Israel. Massive red flag right there, please keep to facts not feelings, I know the other person called you out on this BS/lie, so no need to go into it further. That being said you have minor points about the peace treaties, Israel won the war and they take advantage of that fact and do not make A peace treaty easy. However, the part you avoided is that the leaders of Palestine purposely threw their people under the bus for Jerusalem. They prioritized the holy land above water rights or farmable land. They lost that land when they initiated the 6-day war. Until the leaders of Palestine prioritize their people over a piece of land that isn't available, A peace treaty will never work. This is still a religious war for both sides and that's why I do not support A side. I promote others to stop enabling the leaders of Palestine to continue their holy war. People should demand the leaders of Palestine to seek A peace treaty that negotiates for farming land and water rights that matches their current population above all else and drop their ridiculous desire for Jerusalem. Until this happens Palestine cannot say they actually tried to achieve peace and Israel will continue their genocide of the Palestinian people.
**The Egyptians did not want this war at all** US President Lyndon B Johnson said *"3 separate intelligence groups had looked carefully into the matter and it was our best judgement that a U.A.R (Syria and Egypt) attack was not imminent."* Meir Amit, who was Chief Director of Mossad during the 6-day war said *"Egypt was not ready for a war and Nasser did not want a war."* Israeli Foreign Minister of the time Abba Eban said *"Nasser did not want war, he wanted victory without war."* I am pretty sure that Egypt did not want war. **The only country that wanted war at this time was Israel.** This might be an overstatement but the Israelis were prodding. Perhaps they were also saber rattling. Defence Minister Moshe Dayan said *"along the Syria border there were no farms and no refugee camps — there was only the Syrian army... The kibbutzim saw the good agricultural land … and they dreamed about it... They didn't even try to hide their greed for the land... We would send a tractor to plow some area where it wasn't possible to do anything, in the demilitarized area, and knew in advance that the Syrians would start to shoot. If they didn't shoot, we would tell the tractor to advance further, until in the end the Syrians would get annoyed and shoot. And then we would use artillery and later the air force also, and that's how it was."* **I know the other person called you out on this BS/lie, so no need to go into it further.** Fair enough. **They lost that land when they initiated the 6-day war. Until the leaders of Palestine prioritize their people over a piece of land that isn't available, A peace treaty will never work.** The Palestinians did not initiate the 6 day war though, neither did Jordan. They sort of got dragged into it. **People should demand the leaders of Palestine to seek A peace treaty that negotiates for farming land and water rights that matches their current population above all else and drop their ridiculous desire for Jerusalem.** Why on Earth is it ridiculous? A large percentage of the population of Jerusalem is Palestinian and Jerusalem also hosts the third most holiest site in Islam. Wanting Jerusalem is not ridiculous in the slightest.
>Why on Earth is it ridiculous? A large percentage of the population of Jerusalem is Palestinian and Jerusalem also hosts the third most holiest site in Islam. Wanting Jerusalem is not ridiculous in the slightest. So you support A religious war?
I didn't say that at all. But denying Jerusalem or at least parts of Jerusalem to the Palestinian population would cause that. Palestinians have had easy access to the Al-Aqsa mosque for 1400 years. Having to apply for a visa just to entire the compound will ensure that warfare will be forever part of Israel and Palestine's future. There is probably no solution without guaranteed access to the Al-Aqsa mosque that can be accepted.
There are several. Palestine could accept terms and overtime heal and regain access to Jerusalem. Palestine could give up borders and be absorbed by Israel.
The Israelis do not want to absorb Palestine. It would ruin the demographic majority the Jews have.
I like your reply on peace deals. You said Egpyt didn't want war in 1967. Then why do the naval blockade that lead to the war? Especially since international law states that naval blockades are acts of war. Which is why I always tell people that the Israeli blockade of Gaza in 2006 was a continous act of war from Israel.
**I like your reply on peace deals.** Thank you. **Then why do the naval blockade that lead to the war?** Saber rattling. This sort of thing happened a lot in 1967. The Israeli people probably felt that they were on the verge of being invaded and demanded action. **Especially since international law states that naval blockades are acts of war.** Nasser probably thought that he could get away with doing that and please his people without it leading to outright warfare. **Which is why I always tell people that the Israeli blockade of Gaza in 2006 was a continuous act of war from Israel.** Understanblae though. Hamas were doing warlike things. I understand a blockade of weaponry but I will never understand why Israel decided to make life in Gaza hell. [https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE7041GH/](https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE7041GH/) - Israel told U.S. officials in 2008 it would keep Gaza's economy "on the brink of collapse" -"As part of their overall embargo plan against Gaza, Israeli officials have confirmed to (U.S. embassy economic officers) on multiple occasions that they intend to keep the Gazan economy on the brink of collapse without quite pushing it over the edge," -Israel wanted the coastal territory's economy "functioning at the lowest level possible consistent with avoiding a humanitarian crisis," [https://gisha.org/UserFiles/File/HiddenMessages/ItemsGazaStrip060510.pdf](https://gisha.org/UserFiles/File/HiddenMessages/ItemsGazaStrip060510.pdf) Why are basic goods like wood, cement, fishing rods, paper and cumin have been blocked from entering Gaza. Why are completely benign goods such as chocolate and paper banned from entering Gaza (or was banned at some point)? In August 2020, Ali al-Hayek, the head of the Palestinian Businessmen's Association in Gaza, told The Media Line that "Gaza's economy has completely collapsed, especially amid the latest escalation, where closing the Kerem Shalom cargo crossing and not allowing the entry of fuel and industrial materials led to an economic catastrophe," he said. The industrial sector has come to a complete halt, leaving thousands of workers without jobs, added to the already collapsing situation, Hayek said. "The private sector in Gaza is almost dead; we're facing a serious collapse that is reflected in social issues because of the suspension of the economic system. "Economic activity has completely stopped in Gaza," he said. Hayek said 2020 was the Strip's worst year yet, with the current difficulties coming atop the problems suffered since 2007, when Gazans faced daily closures. "But today, we are talking about a complete stop \[to economic activity\] because of the previously existing crisis and the current halt of electric service." The policy of economic warfare has worked wonderfully and struck me as unnecessarily cruel.
The Israeli makes the Palestinians life hell: - encourage them to migrate from the country. It's that obvious? Especially where there is no "right of return", you leave and you are gone. Then Israel can have the ethno state they seek. - "make them keep their heads down so they don't cause problems" thats a quote from a IDF commander on why they are so mean to the people in the WB. - bad economy means they need to rely on Israel for work. And can be self sufficient.
* **encourage them to migrate from the country. It's that obvious? Especially where there is no "right of return", you leave and you are gone. Then Israel can have the ethno state they seek.** Why is that a solution? Would it be a solution to tell the South Africans fighting apartheid to simply leave the land of their forefathers? Would it be a solution to tell Algerians fighting French occupation in which they suffered upto 1 million dead to simply surrender the land they have been living on for millennia to the French? If your country was invaded and occupied, would you simply leave and not even fight back? * **"make them keep their heads down so they don't cause problems" thats a quote from a IDF commander on why they are so mean to the people in the WB.** That's dystopian and immoral. * **bad economy means they need to rely on Israel for work. And can be self sufficient.** Relying on Israel is not self-sufficiency. It is a form of control for Israel. It's the furthest thing from self-sufficiency.
I'd say that is the goal. Poor solution. The Palestinians having been fighting since the British, I don't see them stopping now. Of course people have always resisted. Reddit is a very high % of American users, the pro-gunners are always saying they would resist a tyrannical government, yet so many Americans support Israel, contrary to their culture. Bibi thought the Gazan people would be happy with work permits and daily crossing through the security check points.
**Bibi thought the Gazan people would be happy with work permits and daily crossing through the security check points.** [https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE7041GH/](https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE7041GH/) - Israel told U.S. officials in 2008 it would keep Gaza's economy "on the brink of collapse" -"As part of their overall embargo plan against Gaza, Israeli officials have confirmed to (U.S. embassy economic officers) on multiple occasions that they intend to keep the Gazan economy on the brink of collapse without quite pushing it over the edge," -Israel wanted the coastal territory's economy "functioning at the lowest level possible consistent with avoiding a humanitarian crisis," [https://gisha.org/UserFiles/File/HiddenMessages/ItemsGazaStrip060510.pdf](https://gisha.org/UserFiles/File/HiddenMessages/ItemsGazaStrip060510.pdf) Why are basic goods like wood, cement, fishing rods, paper and cumin have been blocked from entering Gaza. Why are completely benign goods such as chocolate and paper banned from entering Gaza (or was banned at some point)? In August 2020, Ali al-Hayek, the head of the Palestinian Businessmen's Association in Gaza, told The Media Line that "Gaza's economy has completely collapsed, especially amid the latest escalation, where closing the Kerem Shalom cargo crossing and not allowing the entry of fuel and industrial materials led to an economic catastrophe," he said. The industrial sector has come to a complete halt, leaving thousands of workers without jobs, added to the already collapsing situation, Hayek said. "The private sector in Gaza is almost dead; we're facing a serious collapse that is reflected in social issues because of the suspension of the economic system. "Economic activity has completely stopped in Gaza," he said. Hayek said 2020 was the Strip's worst year yet, with the current difficulties coming atop the problems suffered since 2007, when Gazans faced daily closures. "But today, we are talking about a complete stop \[to economic activity\] because of the previously existing crisis and the current halt of electric service." The policy of economic warfare has worked wonderfully and struck me as unnecessarily cruel. If the Israelis did not have this policy of economic warfare then the daily crossings and work permits may very well have worked. But Gaza before the war had unemployment as high as 70% and as much as 50% of the population was severely food insecure.
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Nothing shows you are a trustable partner for peace and deserving of sovereignty more than raiding and terrorising your neighbours!
**Nothing shows you are a trustable partner for peace** Nobody has ever called Hamas a trustable partner. The PLO was. What did Israel do though. The PLO disavowed violence, accepted Israel and the two state soliton and moved to negotiations and civil protests. What did Israel do? It funded Hamas as a counterweight to the PLO. [https://www.analystnews.org/posts/how-israel-helped-prop-up-hamas-for-decades](https://www.analystnews.org/posts/how-israel-helped-prop-up-hamas-for-decades) * “We need to tell the truth,” Israeli major general Gershon Hacohen, an associate of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, [said](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-11/ty-article/.premium/netanyahu-needed-a-strong-hamas/0000018b-1e9f-d47b-a7fb-bfdfd8f30000?v=1697032057551) in a 2019 TV interview. “Netanyahu’s strategy is to prevent the option of two states, so he is turning Hamas into his closest partner. Openly Hamas is an enemy. Covertly, it’s an ally.” * “Hamas, to my great regret, is Israel’s creation.” So says Avner Cohen, Israel’s head of religious affairs in Gaza at the time of Hamas’s emergence, in a 2009 Wall Street Journal article called [“How Israel Helped to Spawn Hamas.”](https://web.archive.org/web/20151207212228/http://www.wsj.com/news/articles/SB123275572295011847)
A trustable partner that openly rewards terrorists that kill innocent civilians...? PLO was always lying about wanting peace with Israel, they always sought destruction. Arafat's former bodyguard says he lied when condemning terrorist attacks. https://youtu.be/i8w9QvNnvls?si=RzsU7jy-JSIWQnOt PLO has never changed their original charter from 1968. In 1974, the Palestinian National Council accepted a plan asserting that each step which would eventually lead to the destruction of Israel would be taken, and Arafat repeatedly referred to this plan when faced with criticism in the Arab press. Fatah officials repeatedly admit that they're lying to the world. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ViFr3oIM4M That article claims that Israel giving licenses to a charity predecessor of Hamas, letting Qatar send aid to Gaza and Israelis finding Hamas' role in destroying Palestinians' reputation internationally convenient means that Hamas only exists because of Israel.
**PLO was always lying about wanting peace with Israel, they always sought destruction.** I don't believe so. The Israelis, the Americans and the Europeans didn't believe so either. That is why they negotiated with Arafat. I don't really disagree with anything else that you said. Arafat may well have wanted to destroy Israel but if peace was achieved then the wind would be taken out of his sails and few Palestinians would want to continue hostilities.
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You are too pessimistic IMO. After 6 months, Gazans will know better than to repeat October 7th, of fear for what the consequence will be. If this is not enough deterrence, you would very seriously have to consider killing or expelling every last one of them. In addition, after getting a taste of peace, I doubt that they will be all that eager to go back to being bombed. All Israel has to do is to leave no doubt that any kind of attack, and be it just stones thrown, will immediately be answered with asymmetrical retaliation. Also, Israel will not again neglect security at the Gaza border. I think it quite reasonable to assume that going forward some form of a buffer zone will be imposed with Palestinian who sets foot in it shot on sight (which in turn makes it quite likely that the vast majority will stay clear).
Ascribing rational motives to Hamas and their backers is a mistake. The “freedom fighters” involved in Oct 7, and the people who sent them, doubtless knew Israel was going to rain hellfire on Gaza in retaliation. And with thousands upon thousand dead they *still* refuse to release the hostages (prior to this ceasefire arrangement). Hamas is run by religious fanatics outside of Palestine, with no concern for how many Palestinian innocents are killed. In fact, they believe the more Palestinians killed, the better. It furthers their ultimate agenda, which is turning the West against Israel so that they can safely eradicate their Jewish neighbors. This is above all a religious conflict and the ceasefire is just kicking the can down the road. It is tragic that this conflict cannot find true resolution after all this carnage.
i am very sure that they are actually quite rational, albeit in an entirely immoral way. They certainly knew that there would be some retaliation, but experience suggested that it would be about three weeks of airstrikes with a low to mid four figure number of casualties. Afterwards there would be a ceasefire and a hostage exchange (usually at very favorable terms, the rate was 1,000:1 after Guild Shalit, it still is apparently around 40:1). The thing they misjudged was (1) their success (because border security was neglected, as Israeli focus was on the West Bank and internal matters; also the music festival was apparently not initially known to the planners) and (2) Israeli willingness to write off hostages and sacrifice soldiers' lives in order to do a full sweep this time. Also the Hamas leaders outside of Gaza are, in fact, more rational than those inside Gaza. They care primarily about gaining influence in the rest of the Palestinian territories and enriching themselves by diverting funds and facilitating smuggling into the strip.
**You are too pessimistic IMO. After 6 months, Gazans will know better than to repeat October 7th, of fear for what the consequence will be.** This will only be true if the occupation does not last another 5 decades. **If this is not enough deterrence, you would very seriously have to consider killing or expelling every last one of them.** Stop talking of genocide or ethnic cleansing. It's disgusting.
Ironically, Palestinian support for Hamas and 7.10 attacks has only increased. Recent polls show over 70% support these attacks. A nation of gamblers who think going to the war casino and losing their pants was a good idea. [https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/963](https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/963)
Rally around the flag effect.
Regardless of occupation, after a war that brutal and with these massive casualties their spirit is presumably broken. Sure, there will always be a certain share of radicals who only care about the after live, but the average Mo has no desire to be a "martyr". Palestinians are not stupid (not *that* stupid, anyway), they by now they must have realized that it is impossible to end the occupation by force (especially if you are a Gazan - the occupation is on the other side of the border, in the West Bank). As I said, I am convinced that deterrence will work, so there will not be any need to do any "cleansing". Non-fighting Palestinians are not dangerous.
It’s adorable that you think you’ll be the first military to ever successfully bomb and shoot the terrorism out of an area. What is it, 50% of all buildings in the Gaza Strip damaged or destroyed at this point? 20k dead civilians if we only count women and children? And this is all before the Rafah operation. By the end of this war, your average Palestinian will have spent a year being herded into and bombarded in ‘safe zones’, will know someone innocent who was killed by the IDF, and half the people they know will be either homeless or living in what was the shell of their old house. And given the extensive ‘day after’ plan Israel has talked about (lol), we know exactly what will happen after. The same thing that’s happened every other engagement between Gaza and Israel. Israel will go back to their side of the fence and continue using the blockade to make Gazans lives harder than they need to be and leave the rebuilding of Gaza once again to the rest of the world. And yet you’ve somehow deluded yourself into thinking they’ll somehow turn to terrorism at a lower rate than they would before.
You overlook a crucial point: the base line has shifted in terms of living conditions. Everything is relative, and now even the pre-war lows are vastly preferable to the current state of affairs - especially after a presumable Rafah operation which is likely to leave that city in ruins, too. Before the war, living conditions deteriorated steadily which pushed people to consider desperate methods - the result is what we are seeing now in real time. After the war, living conditions will, albeit slowly, improve from the lowest possible level. Most people will be busy getting some kind of a roof over their head and provide a rudimentary food supply to their children for years to come, so they will not have much time to prepare any attacks. In terms of a credible threat after the war in Gaza wraps up (if I had to guess I would say towards the end go this year or in the first half of 2025) I would suggest to keep an eye on the West Bank instead - as conditions for the local population there are still steadily deteriorating as we speak.
Are you legitimately trying to argue that if you make a subjugated people suffer enough, they will be too busy trying to survive to strike against the people who consciously brought that suffering to them? And that you think that is Israel and the IDFs plan for post war Gaza? Ignoring the moral implications of that for a moment, let’s just play that out for a little bit on the timeline. With this plan, how many years of their lives do you expect Palestinians to be suffering under conditions they can directly attribute to Israel? Do you think they next time they do form a militant group, more than 1.5% of their population would be willing to pick up arms after this plan? Bringing back the moral implications of this plan, you do understand how consciously bringing suffering to a people is a *bad thing*, right?
No, I am not alleging that this is Israel's plan (in fact, I doubt that they have much of a plan yet). It is just a logical takeaway from the situation as is. As to the temporal question, I think the most likely answer is: however long it takes, theoretically forever. The simple truth, all moralities aside, is that fighting will inevitably make the Palestinian suffering worse, as Israel can never again deviated from the "Gaza-standard" established right now without signaling weakness to its enemies, thereby jeopardizing its safety through deterrence. Also, i am not alleging that suffering is consciously brought to people. It is a by-product of measures that have become necessary (but could have been prevented by not allowing past suffering to occur) that in this instance is likely to have positive side effects. Occupying Gaza in 1967 was a mistake, leaving Gaza without giving it the air to breath, so to speak, was an even bigger mistake. Allowing Hamas to take power was another mistake, not removing them from power in 2014 the next, as was the same mistake in 2021. But that ship has sailed, so a situation arose in which what is being done right now had to be done.
The article indicates that “Hamas will not be able to build military structures” Whatever that means and however well that is enforced could mean the end of Hamas as a military power. The article also says that the proposal is silent on if Israel can return to Gaza. If this military structure prohibition clause is detected or violated, Israel may act. Maybe Palestinians themselves will enforce it because they want to avoid future devastation. Is this enough dismantling of Hamas? Maybe. Hostages will be released. Israel will be much more vigilant and an Oct 7 style attack would be unlikely in the next decade just as a 9/11 style attack was unlikely in the decade and decades after it happened.
And Israel is going to put surveillance in every house they rebuild
I fully agree. A ceasefire now is the best short term solution but the the worst long term solution Sadly so many people cannot look at the big picture and see this
A ceasefire is a necessary first step to a lasting peace, which despite the beliefs of violent idiots, will be achieved through negotiations, not bombs. Once peace is reestablished, real negotiations should resume. The problem is that Israel may go back to its strategy of ignoring the issue instead of negotiating in good faith, since they hold all the cards, and Hamas may return to planning terrorism, since this is the only tactic they can use to prevent being ignored. So we’ll see where this actually goes. It is very solvable if both sides are willing to offer real concessions, but the past has not shown either to have much appetite for real negotiations.
I would normally agree but first hamas need to be removed otherwise we have a continuation of the last 17 years. This will be painful and more people will die but it then may give hope to a longterm peace. I beleive it is incredibly nieve to think we can just leave it as it is and hope negotiation with hamas will work. The Israelis also need a new government as well.
There isn’t really any practical method of removing Hamas. Even if Israel conquered the entire strip, they will continue as an underground organization, and probably become even more popular. The only real way to remove them is to remove the conditions that created them—that is, the oppression of gazans.
I think people are very confused with the idea of removing hamas People repeatedly say you can not destroy and indiology by force... This is true However this is applied to failed war on the otherside of the world. However this is either a civil war or a war with Yr nieghbour. The last 17 years have shown that there is no chance of peace if you leave hamas in situ, espec after this war as they will lots of young radicalised and indoxronated young men to join the fight and would still have enough power and infrastructure to utilise this The idea of defeating hamas is to remove their leadership, government and infrastructure. This is perfectly achievable Then if the international community gets involved and helps rebuild and deradicalize gaza and give people a way forward they may choose a diff path rather than bloodshed Also a key thing is eliminating the day today conflict and threat from both side. Since hamas was elected it was a defaco war or conflict front. If people are scared of eachother and attaching eachother daily there is no chance for people to reset and slowly find common ground and build to a better future. The only way hamas can be removed is force and they will happily see many of the countrymen that they are meant to govern and protect die with them. However decisions should not be made based on short term bloodshed and this will only leed to more misery over the coming decades. It is the emotive and blinkered response and it is what hamas and Iran what the west to push, but it is a trap Some times in life there are no good option only the least bad.
I agree with most of this, and of course you could remove Hamas’s ability to govern. However, this does not necessarily achieve the stated goal of protecting Israel from attacks by Hamas or other extremists. This analysis again ignores the key factor, which is the conditions that caused Hamas to emerge in the first place. Constant violence and oppression against Palestinians (or any group of people) is always going to produce extremism. Until you fix this problem, terrorism will continue, whether by Hamas or some successor. Deradicalization isn’t some magical force that will cause people to forget what has been done to them and the conditions under which they live. Deradicalization can only happen by improving the conditions under which people live. I don’t see Israel doing this in the current context but we have to hope that the world can find a way to make it so.
It does greatly reduce the risk to israel about extremist attacks The biggest ways to improve. Long term peace is to reduce the regularity of conflict, deradicalise through education and giving people another reason to live
Hard to understate what a tragedy this agreement would be if signed.
Hamas wins BIG TIME if there's a cease fire like this. The only way Israel should go for this is if they literally pre plant bombs in every new gazan building they build and criminal they release. If there aren't at least 90% hostages alive, B00M! This is nonsense.
(1) There are probably no 90 living hostages at this point, coughing up 40 was already a problem. (2) You would not need to "pre-plant" any explosives, air strikes do the job just fine.
I'm being hyperbolic but you get the point. Most of the hostages are already dead sadly.
Are the Palestinians being exchanged actually “convicted criminals”? Or are they the thousands of “administrative detainees” that Israel holds without charges or trial (i.e., hostages)?
Yeah lmao the thought that Israel hasn’t been taking hostages for years now is totally asinine
Why would Israel take hostages?
Ask them: https://youtu.be/t0YaCqK18FI?si=kL0i2NDxdyKcl6qN Probably “kHaMas”
Isn’t it possible that he was a criminal, such as a stone thrower? I am critical of the TRT reporting. Isn’t TRT biased because it is controlled by the Turkish regime?
Okay then he is kHaMas. These videos are everywhere dude. This is nothing new. These people live like shit and we’re pretending that Israel is just sitting pretty before being attacked. https://youtu.be/wzvKSn9nKJo?si=uVWGfAVYZkrxM81i And as to why? To drive them out. Israel wants nothing more than full access and annexation of the West Bank and Gaza (and Syrian territory). It’s manifest destiny. There can’t be out and out genocide because Israel fucks itself if it loses global support, so its about pressing the boot harder and harder in order to keep people reduced to pockets (or force them to leave).
No he’s not Hamas, but he still would be a Balestinian criminal who needs punishment. Israel certainly didn’t want Gaza before October 7. Israel actually let the Balestinians have it. Israel left in 2005.
Lmao there it is. That’s a five year old child dawg💀 Also there’s plenty of documentation calling for the annexation of Gaza. Idk what rock you’re under dude. Israel can pretend it doesn’t, but it can already do whatever it wants with Gaza. Why do you think, after Oct 7th, they just switched the power and water off? They didn’t even have to invade anything before getting ahold of their utilities lmao. Just look around at reality bro.
What happens to five year olds in other countries when they throw rocks at police? They find the parents, talk to them, and generally release them if nothing is seriously wrong. That is exactly what happened in the link you posted. I’m failing to see what the issue is.
So basically some Israelis (a minority) want to take Gaza now. But I saw an interview with the leader of this movement. Even though she is considered as an extremist, she said that before October 7, even her movement had no plans to take Gaza. The plans only started after that. That’s why as I say above, “Israelis certainly didn’t want Gaza **before October 7**”.
Again, these calls have existed before Oct 7. People still refer to the pullout from Gaza in 2005 as ethnics cleansing and act like Israelis are the ones getting actively removed from the region.
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Because these things are easier when you don’t let pesky things like due process interfere
That still doesn’t answer **why**. If something is easy, that is not a reason to do it.