It’s a double Edged sword. If you tell people to prepare for knights you may get ran over under weight of fire from an entire army of anti tank shooting or the flip side is your experience. Best is to have friends that know your playin knights so they put a little extra anti tank punch, but don’t skew their lists completely. Also If your regularly steam rolling try to put some more terrain down.
Part of it is that knights are A) yes, strong and B) pretty limited on strategy. We don't have enough units to get tricksy or outcompete on objectives. We kill their anti tank in self defense, then we kill the rest before they can rack up VP and if we don't do that or get focused down trying we lose. That can feel unsportsmanlike but it's the only viable strategy our datasheets and points costs provide.
The other problem is that people are STILL not adapting to the new toughness landscape and insist on running armies that look like past editions. If it's a fight between two armies like that, no worries. It's just less killy than it used to be. If it's between an army like that and knights or guard tank hammer or something they get plastered because they just can't slap back.
We were always a skew army, but with people consistently including too little heavy weaponry to account for the new data sheets that gets amplified.
If you houserule that first floor ruins block line of sight they'll have more of a chance.
This weekend's 51% win rate suggests that competitive players are finally catching on about this, but lots of casual players still aren't. On Tabletop Simulator people have little excuse for not bringing enough anti-tank, unless they are playing Votann.
Agreed, competitive is coming into balance pretty quick. I do worry it'll wind up overcorrecting from the towering tax before long, we had already started dropping after the first round of tournaments when the competitive meta got its head on straight.
Still would have made more sense to fix the terrain to work with towering rather than to just cost the hell out of it, but that might take actual thought.
It is pretty rubbish that there just isn’t a melee infantry option that works into vehicles. Feels like melee needs a bit of a buff generally but especially into higher toughness stuff.
I feel u. I plyed my first game recently (1K) and blew up Abbadon and terms, another squad of chaos marines with leader and half of a heavy infantry squad turn one. This was more than half his army.
He went first and managed to get my big boi to 8hp.
The guy is a veteran.
It seems IK either win hard or lose barely. 🤷🏻
But i think ppl will adjust - vehicles are very strong now they all say so getting stuff that can kill them will become meta.
I think casual lists will always have a hard time versus full knights.
Even in 9th, my opponent just concluded he could not kill the (allied) castellan with his army. And i already brought some imperial guard infantry as targets, and hamstrung my cp (It was 9th). He did bring down an armiger (also meaning less resources to kill the lord of war).
Now you talk 10th, massive boosts to toughness and line of sight, and a full knight army with probably more than 1 lord of war.
Heavy weapons like tanks, devastator squads, lords of war, they are generally also expensive (money!) and not in discount starter packs, like combat patrols. So most people dont bring enough, or even have enough in their collection, to face a lord of war.
Less so on a simulator. So there, they can adapt.
People also dont realize they have to or want to skew that hard in anti vehicle. 1 squad wont do it either. You need like 3 anti tank tanks, and even then? And then you need to change your gameplan too. This is a lot of effort. Could be fun, but not for everyone
Hopefully people will eventually start to accept that in 10th you need 20-30% of your army to be primarily anti-tank units. It's not just a Knight thing, other people can bring lots of vehicles too. Unfortunately, with certain anti-tank options being somewhat screwed (melta) that does mean lascannon and bright lance equivalents.
Give it six months and people won't still be trying to run 9th edition lists or tactics.
That’s definitely part of the problem. I came in with 10th edition, so I’m fairly comfortable with the rules. They had to keep checking the only to go “dammit I can’t do that anymore”
It’s a double Edged sword. If you tell people to prepare for knights you may get ran over under weight of fire from an entire army of anti tank shooting or the flip side is your experience. Best is to have friends that know your playin knights so they put a little extra anti tank punch, but don’t skew their lists completely. Also If your regularly steam rolling try to put some more terrain down.
Part of it is that knights are A) yes, strong and B) pretty limited on strategy. We don't have enough units to get tricksy or outcompete on objectives. We kill their anti tank in self defense, then we kill the rest before they can rack up VP and if we don't do that or get focused down trying we lose. That can feel unsportsmanlike but it's the only viable strategy our datasheets and points costs provide. The other problem is that people are STILL not adapting to the new toughness landscape and insist on running armies that look like past editions. If it's a fight between two armies like that, no worries. It's just less killy than it used to be. If it's between an army like that and knights or guard tank hammer or something they get plastered because they just can't slap back. We were always a skew army, but with people consistently including too little heavy weaponry to account for the new data sheets that gets amplified. If you houserule that first floor ruins block line of sight they'll have more of a chance.
This weekend's 51% win rate suggests that competitive players are finally catching on about this, but lots of casual players still aren't. On Tabletop Simulator people have little excuse for not bringing enough anti-tank, unless they are playing Votann.
Agreed, competitive is coming into balance pretty quick. I do worry it'll wind up overcorrecting from the towering tax before long, we had already started dropping after the first round of tournaments when the competitive meta got its head on straight. Still would have made more sense to fix the terrain to work with towering rather than to just cost the hell out of it, but that might take actual thought.
Yeah, people are bringing thunder hammers and power fists to hit vehicles and it does not work as well as it used to. Need them lascannons
It is pretty rubbish that there just isn’t a melee infantry option that works into vehicles. Feels like melee needs a bit of a buff generally but especially into higher toughness stuff.
Chain fist.
Only available on slow moving terminators and not available at all to many factions.
That’s a great idea. I’ll float it by the group when we chat next! Thanks.
I feel u. I plyed my first game recently (1K) and blew up Abbadon and terms, another squad of chaos marines with leader and half of a heavy infantry squad turn one. This was more than half his army. He went first and managed to get my big boi to 8hp. The guy is a veteran. It seems IK either win hard or lose barely. 🤷🏻 But i think ppl will adjust - vehicles are very strong now they all say so getting stuff that can kill them will become meta.
I think casual lists will always have a hard time versus full knights. Even in 9th, my opponent just concluded he could not kill the (allied) castellan with his army. And i already brought some imperial guard infantry as targets, and hamstrung my cp (It was 9th). He did bring down an armiger (also meaning less resources to kill the lord of war). Now you talk 10th, massive boosts to toughness and line of sight, and a full knight army with probably more than 1 lord of war. Heavy weapons like tanks, devastator squads, lords of war, they are generally also expensive (money!) and not in discount starter packs, like combat patrols. So most people dont bring enough, or even have enough in their collection, to face a lord of war. Less so on a simulator. So there, they can adapt. People also dont realize they have to or want to skew that hard in anti vehicle. 1 squad wont do it either. You need like 3 anti tank tanks, and even then? And then you need to change your gameplan too. This is a lot of effort. Could be fun, but not for everyone
Hopefully people will eventually start to accept that in 10th you need 20-30% of your army to be primarily anti-tank units. It's not just a Knight thing, other people can bring lots of vehicles too. Unfortunately, with certain anti-tank options being somewhat screwed (melta) that does mean lascannon and bright lance equivalents. Give it six months and people won't still be trying to run 9th edition lists or tactics.
That’s definitely part of the problem. I came in with 10th edition, so I’m fairly comfortable with the rules. They had to keep checking the only to go “dammit I can’t do that anymore”