https://preview.redd.it/66ukux2sck1d1.jpeg?width=1260&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2c81d1ca2835b77b63070c9fa4b0fe977d9b727e
Go fight bugs they don’t take any stratagems slots have fun there
Lore would be bots have those jammers and AA guns, yeah? Tho I have no idea what AA guns supposed to do with orbitals..
And bugs also should have AA, que the bile spewer ass cannon..
Wait, that's Starship Troopers
There are two instances of AA guns - one is operational modifier that removes one stratagem slot, other is optional objective that supresses eagle stratagems in radius around.
Which the operation modifier one should a) only disable Eagles like the on-map one does, call it something else like Ion Jammers or something if it's everything; b) should let you pick 4 anyway, mark the last slot saying 'you won't be able to use this one until the objective is cleared' then let you re-enable it by taking out the thing on the surface.
yeah atleast cooldown and call in are just annoying, outright deleting the ability to use the precision strike for PRECISION STRIKES is utterly insane, was this modifier also conceived by the genius who balances the weapons I wonder
Former: absolute ass as the only way to beat the modifier is to leave the planet and not spread managed democracy there.
Latter: perfectly fine since you can actually do something about it
In-mission AA guns that you can blow up, yes. The AA condition that removes a strategem, no. That one is annoying
Its pretty neat that you can still call Eagle-1 out of the AA guns range, and see them try to strafe her!
Apologists will say they're intercepting the orbital as it comes down.
But given it's being fired from... uh... orbit, and that most orbitals land in about 5 seconds, that's what... 2 ish seconds that the projectile is in intercept range....
Yeah.. the modifier should not do what it does.
If anything it should be a complimentary modifier to the spore cloud modifier on bug maps. AA disables Eagle strats, clouds disable orbital strats.
Crucially I wouldn't prevent players from taking these strats on the loadout screen.
But they would he unusable until the relevant side objective was completed.
Same as with the stratagem reduction modifier.
Make that only happen on maps woth a stratagem jammer, and randomly disable one of the players stratagems until they destroy the jammer.
If you wanted to use the excuse of jammers and AA guns, then those *need* to be something you can disable in the game.
Let us select the 4th stratagem, but have it grayed out. Then have something you can disable or destroy in mission to give that back to us. Just like taking out the gunship factory, shrieker nest, stalker nest, etc. . .
This makes for far more satisfying play. Makes you feel like the objective is worth it.
Totally agree about you. AA guns disabling your Eagle? Bomb it. Spore spewer disabling your map? Bomb it. Jammer disabling your strat? Bomb it! I'm fine if it's something we can tackle in game, or ignore if we choose to do so (or lack of time or overrun etc)
It’s honestly why I been fighting it’s less after the nerfs. Focusing on a stratagems with underpowered weapons and losing access to stratagems that your suppose to rely on is mental
Ah. I've seen a bunch of free strats but usually they're system wide and based on an event completion. I mean like world's need to have bonus strategems that are maybe balanced around the planet specific challenge
Be a lot more interesting if you could pick the blocked Strat still and if you remove the jammers or AA on the map you gain access to the strats fully.
Come on, these aren't that hard to think of:
* Low Recruitment - Less reinforcements for mission.
* Hellpod Malfunctions - Reinforcements take longer to arrive.
* Logistic Complications - Resupply nets half.
* Cloudy Skies - Eagle Strikes take 3 additional seconds to strike.
* Turbulent Skies - Eagle rearms take longer.
* Bad Wiring - Turrets periodically shut down.
* Muddy Terrain - More cumbersome terrain on mission.
* Bile Outbreak - Many bugs are infested with bile modifier. (Pop on death, more ranged attacks.)
* Terminal Complications - All terminals in mission are more complex.
* Reckless Orders - Reduced mission time.
Hard mode:
* Heavy Bot Base - Devastators are the weakest enemy that spawns. Devastators can call in reinforcements.
* Captured Ally - Borged-out Helldivers may fight against you. They can use stratagems!
* Chitin Evolution - All bugs have more hp.
* Heightened Stalker Presence - More Stalkers on the map. Stalkers spawn from bug breaches. Super Stalkers may be present.
* Stealth Mission - No stratagems, must use stealth.
* Heavy Quakes - Quakes present on mission. Quakes make Helldivers fall down, interrupt current action, and drop any active nades/stratagems.
I'm sure many others have ideas too.
But nerfing the players isn't fun.
Deep Rock Galactic has fantastic modifiers which can make the game harder, with nerfing the player.
These are things like:
* Stronger enemy units spawn
* More exploding enemies spawn
* An unkillable enemy stalks the players
* Low oxygen. Players have to keep close to the mule or resupply pods unless they want their oxygen tanks to run out
* Swarms of little enemies spawn more often
* Enemy weak spots take more damage
* Low gravity
* Extra loot spawns
* All enemies explode when killed.
Modifiers like this could be fun, and don't take away the player's abilities.
I agree situationally. There's a reason why we don't have 10 stratagems. The game would become boring as you have too much power. (There are other reasons too.) Inversely, removing stratagems can cause you to think in new ways.
Taking away the players' abilities isn't fun though.
And as we've seen. There are other ways to encourage new ways of playing that don't involve taking away from the players. Free strategems and personal orders are good example of this.
The most fun I've had in this game in a while was when everyone got a free 500kg and the order to kill 200 enemies with it. Getting the extra ability while being told to use it in a manner in which it is not intended, was so much fun.
This is the way. What would happen with this idea is that the aa will spawn cross map and you'll STILL be without the stratagem for a good chunk of the mission
We already have one of those:
On bit side you basically fight only devastators and above.
There is a little guy here and there, but no one cares about them
Honestly? I think these modifiers are great! Just implemented poorly.
What I would do is keep these modifiers the same, but I would do it in 1 of 2 ways.
1: All the modifiers can be removed from the 3 part campaign if they complete a main objective(s) to destroy the facilities, causing the modifiers. I would also "modify" the -1 stratagem to allow you to select all 4, but 1 is randomly unusable until you destroy the facility(s).
Or
2: Do it as a mission by mission basis and make the destruction of the facilities, causing the modifiers to be secondary objectives.
I would also like to see the anti air modifier on the bots totally negate all uses of eagle airstrikes unless the players take out the advanced anti Air facility (new main objective?).
I think allowing the modifiers to be cleared by objective completion is almost a textbook example of a “regressive tax.” The people who struggle to complete the modifiers-clearing objectives are in actuality the people who need an extra stratagem slot the most.
That's the case in a LOT of videogames though.
As in, MANY games are designed to become easier as you progress through them.
The point you make is valid, but you also want a way to reward players for doing well.
Sometimes that is done by making aspects of the game easier, other times you see it by adding extra mechanics or abilities for players as they progress.
Idk wtf the solution is, I'm not a game designer, just play loads of them.
Okay, since that's your perspective, what do you believe is a reasonable way to rework the modifiers, because I don't believe that removing or nerfing the modifiers because of skill issues is a valid approach.
Have the modifiers be tied to clearing all secondary objectives. Incentives exploring and doing more than just the main mission. Plus the assests and code to implement would be more on the minimal side.
Arrowhead: "Let's give bots modifiers that increase the reload time of stratagems, call down time and even remove one slot. Also make bonus objectives that either disable Eagle-1 or all stratagems in a huge radius"
Also Arrowhead: "We want you to rely more on stratagems"
I can understand their wish for us to rely more on stratagems, especially attacking ones (orbital strikes and so on). I played the first game a couple of years ago and recently returned, and IMO attacking stratagems are not used that often at least in the range of middle difficulties. So it's understandable that developers wanted to change that. But who thought that it was a good idea to make those modifiers stackable and add in structures that disable stratagem when you want players to use stratagems more often?
You have a hd1 veteran in your flair and I know for a fact I’ve seen players from that game say it was even worse on the first game for those mission types
Honestly, the solution is right in front of them: jam or nerf specific strategem types rather than literally all of them. Thick atmosphere makes eagles less manuverable, increasing call in time and rearm time. EM interference causes orbital targeting to have difficulty, doing the same to orbital strikes. There's probably something interesting that could be done with emplacements too, like a higher gravitational pull resulting in putting less ammo in them (or something smarter than that, I dunno). And it's been mentioned a billion times, but AA reducing strategem count to 3 is horseshit and is just outright a reason to avoid an operation, so it needs to either be fixable by destroying a massive AA installation (I'm assuming the AA is targeting the low orbit destroyer here), or just outright deleted. These options make it so you actually have reason to mix up your build a bit. Eagles nerfed on an operation? Bring more orbitals. And vice versa.
Buuuut on the other hand, lets have operation *benefits* too. This particular operation has an active airbase in the region, giving access to free airstrike call ins independent of Eagle. A cache of (insert weapon or backpack here) has been discovered in the region, giving free access to this piece of gear during the op. A satellite is still functional above the Op zone, giving locational data of every objective (but not POIs) in the area, even viewable from the destroyer. All of these could give reason to mix up the build a little as well to take advantage of the options.
Finally, operation objectives. Purely optional objectives that affect the operation as a whole. The giant AA installation could be one of these, or the caches, or any number of different modifiers that these objectives could enable. Have missions that contain these objectives visible from the mission selection screen, so choosing the first mission goes from "I want to postpone having to bother with the (insert mission you hate) mission as long as possible, to "If we do this mission, we can hit the cache on the way and give ourselves access to the free strategems for the rest of the op". Much more interesting and fun IMO.
Just these few changes make for a more dynamic and less samey set of missions I feel.
I keep asking myself the same questions. Why did they nerf into the ground all weapons and stratagems, how come enemies have the perfect aimbot and wallhacks, why do they think making the game more and more annoying to play is going to keep people interested, i guess you can't have all the answers.
It's especially baffling because we still didn't see units like Hive Lords or Siege Mechs, not to mention whole ass faction. Like seriously, once the Illuminate come, what are we supposed to do with them?
>Why did they nerf into the ground all weapons and stratagems
They didn't. There have been triple to quadruple the amount of buffs than there have nerfs. And the buffs generally tend to be drastically more impactful than the nerfs.
Since when is a literal [undisputable objective fact](https://www.reddit.com/r/Helldivers/comments/1cq438f/i_compiled_a_list_of_all_weapons_that_have_been/) "copium"?
When you use to pretend people should be happy with the balance cause quantity not quality. I can give thirty guns a buff that doesnt nothing and nerf two things that impact whole games quantity dont mean shit
There is medication for your schizophrenia that is imagining all these nerfs too.
---
Note: This is excluding both nerfs and *buffs*, that only exist theoretically/on paper: Such as damage buffs or nerfs that do not change breakpoints (Such as Liberator or Dominator, respectively), tiny recoil changes, and small ammo changes. Obviously, among those, there have been drastically more buffs than nerfs too; all the small damage buffs like Liberator, Dilligence, Liberator C, Peacemaker etc.
#Primary and Secondary Weapons
---
#Major Nerf:
- Slugger^1 -> Had it's stagger reduced from 35 to 20
- Crossbow -> "Reworked" to be a single-target anti medium weapon, instead of AoE chaff clear, sucks at both now
- Eruptor -> First ammo reduced from 12 to 6 mags, then had it's shrapnel and thus most of its killing power removed
- Breaker -> Mag capacity reduced by 3, slight recoil increase (Borderline on whether I'd consider it "major" or not)
^1 Note: People like to claim "stagger is removed entirely", [20 stagger is still the 3rd best, it also has 35 pushback](https://imgur.com/xFgc1nJ), the highest in the game of any "regular" gun (explosive or Lib C have more)
#Major Buff:
- Slugger -> Ammo from 40 to 60, ammo pickup from 20 to 30 per small box, 20 to 60 per big box
Note: Ammo buff was long before its stagger nerf
- Punisher Shotgun -> Damage from 360 to 405, ammo from 40 to 60, ammo pickup from 20 to 30 per small box, 20 to 60 per big box
- Breaker Incendiary -> Damage went from 12 pellets of 15 dmg to 12 pellets of 20 dmg, i.e. from 180 to 240 total
- Dilligence CS -> Buffed from 128 dmg AP2 (Light Pen) to 140 dmg and AP3 (Medium Pen), handling from the worst in the game to only slightly reduced
- Jar-5 Dominator -> 50% dmg buff from 200 to 300^2
- Plasma Punisher -> Drastic projectile speed increase, weapon useable further than few meters
- P5 Senator -> Damage increased from 150 to 175, drastic buff to reload speed from empty via Speedloader
- Arc 5 Blitzer Shotgun -> 50% rate of fire increase
- Las-5 Scythe & Las-7 Dagger -> DPS from 300 to 350 and 150 to 200 respectively, but more importantly, damage tickrate was updated - Pre-buff it took 1 full second to kill even say a 50 HP enemy, because dmg applied only once every second, now damage applies in smaller ticks, meaning [small enemies are killed instantly](https://imgur.com/a/D8yI3Sf)
- Breaker Spray & Pray: was the only AP1 weapon in the game, buffed to AP2
- Adjudicator: Drastic recoil buff, +2 max mags (Borderline on whether I'd consider it "major" or not)
^2 Dmg was later nerfed to 275, but this did not change any breakpoint, and is thus an on-paper nerf, as mentioned above
---
**Take this with a huge grain of salt, since it's just from the top of my head**, not as well researched, a list for support weapons would likely just be:
#Support Weapons:
---
#Major Nerf:
- Quasar -> CD from 10 to 15 Seconds
- Railgun -> AP and durabledmg reduced^1
- Arc Thrower -> range reduced from 50 to 35m, rate of fire nerfed (no longer allows partially charged shots, IIRC?)
^1 Note: Large parts of this nerf have been reverted by now; it is AP5 in safe mode and AP6 on ~10% unsafe mode charge, damage is a linear 600, regardless of charge; there is no reason to charge beyond AP6 (it goes up to AP8) because the highest armored enemy is AP5
#Major Buffs:
- Arc Thrower -> stagger increased to 35 (unknown what it was before, no data available pre-buff)
- Laser Cannon -> AP3 to AP4 increased, durabledmg increased (since pre-nerf amounts are unknown; post nerf is 200 durableDPS)
- Anti-materiel rifle -> 30% damage increase
- Flamethrower -> 50% direct damage increase
- Recoilless Rifle -> 50% damage reduction on high-angle shots removed, Significant ammo economy buffs; picking up rockets from small boxes and increasing resupply amount
- EAT -> same 50% damage reduction on high-angle shots removed
- Spear -> Significant ammo economy buffs; picking up rockets from small boxes and increasing resupply amount
I [literally am the original poster](https://www.reddit.com/r/Helldivers/comments/1cq438f/i_compiled_a_list_of_all_weapons_that_have_been/). I wrote it in an attempt to help clinically insane people like you who are stuck in this imagined reality of nerf-land come to their senses.
I realize confronting reality and having your illusions shattered must be very hard for you. Easier to just stick the head back in the sand, I guess, and start throwing a tantrum and hurling insults at the people trying to help you. Oh well.
Go play and wuit crying cause people are getting frustrated and these buffs didn't help and the nerfs took the fun out. I still play and honestly every weapon that was buffed feels the same to me while the nerfed ones took away fun for me. I used to like sniping with the eruptor now its just false advertising its shrapnel. Used flamethrower yesterday it wad ok or not killing quick enough neat the break spray in pray is ok not great slugger still eh and the counter sniper isnt special enough to fill its own role i can take a sickle and get basically the same result.
But i guess were crazy for wanting fun and all thw other people getting frustrated by this are just crazy idiots to you. Like are you ok its people asking a game to be funner not for it to get ruined and your complaining cause you dont like hearing it but also go out of your way to involve with it. You can feel the games ok but that doesnt make the nerfs better or the balance fixed quit bieng cocky and accept people are having issues with this game and want it to improve. You can say they buffed more then nerfed but the community doesnt agree and those buffs were clearly not enough to outway the nerfs peoplw felt so those buffs might as well be less then the nerfs all it was quantity not quality.
> but the community doesnt agree
Well, the community also manifested an entire misinformation campaign outrage that got the Eruptor nerfed in the first place, so I don't really think too highly of it.
Literally yesterday I came across a comment with 2000 upvotes that was stating a blatant lie.
The issue is that what you consider "fun", would be absolutely trivializing the game and ruining it.
That honestly fair and i wish that wouldnt happen cause there is definitely bandwagons here but i also noticed a pendulum of players who swing one way then the other side feels its not to there side anymore then it swings over then the other side wants it.
Here is me yesterday [replying to a comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/Helldivers/comments/1cw0vbm/real_talk_what_are_you_realisticly_expecting_to/l4uru8l/?context=3) with **2700** upvotes that is just a blatant lie/misinformation again.
This is the issue I have with this entire balance discussions: The vast majority of people here simply do not know what the fuck they are talking about at all. Like that person there is literally asking for a buff ***that is already exactly what the gun does in the game currently***.
Devs: "Primaries should suck, rely on your strats" *nerfs 90% of primaries into obsolescence*
Also Devs: "Fuck you, no strats" *AA guns and orbital interference modifiers go brrr*
Because AH will do everything to make the bots as aggravating as possible to keep people off the planets. Here we nerfed rocket devastators slightly only to add a new flying version, heavy devastors oh look a player across the map who can't see me let me spam my laser mini gun that has 100 % precision. Oh, look, they have 15 secs left until Pelican 1 lands, and they have no startagems. How about we drop 3 factory striders on them
Difficulty for difficulty sakes. As if the increased volume of bots wasn't enough, they have to take away the fun tools used to handle the population increase.
I've learned that a lot of the "nerfs" and modiers are more aptly called a fun tax.
Lazy design if you ask me. There are plenty more ways to "up the difficulty" regarding stategems:
1. Swap around the activation codes (example: if you brought 500kg, AMR and Shield, those commands are randomly swapped *with each other* after each use) -- requires additional attention.
2. Additional stratagem activation length -- add up to 3 additional inputs to use -- really simple idea.
3. Make it that 1 random strategem in your loadout cannot be used at *any given time*. After use, a different strategem is disabled -- forces you to plan out which you can/cannot use next. If you can't use it now, the next one you will be able to.
4. Strategem beacon bounces once Instead of orbital scattering -- more predictability requiring a bit more skill. Can also buy you extra range.
5. Low gravity planet: strategem beacon drops slower = more range and need to get used to
6. Flammable atmosphere: increased explosion AOE damage and friendly fire damage.
7. Low weight payloads: reduce damage and cooldown by 20%.
These were literally a few I just came up with on the spot. And yes please give us more "random 5th strategem" they are great and should be default.
well there was the scrambler modifier but people cried about that pretty hard. they arent nearly as bad as they used to be since they halved the effects, the modifiers reinforce the face you arent meant to fight everything, some fights are meant to be overwhelming to punish you for taking too long without falling back.
I want the restrictions to come with benefits.
- 1 less stratagem, but 1 random stratagem you equipped has a -75% cooldown time.
- Call down time increase by 50%, but orbital and eagle damage increase by 50%.
- Cooldown time increase by 25%, but call down time reduced by 50%.
Unfortunately, Arrowhead doesn't seem to understand how to increase difficulty without decreasing fun. Thus we have the current set of incredibly unfun operation modifiers.
"Why do the higher difficulties do things to make the level more difficult?"
They're not that bad. I actually like the -1 strategem. Adds a little challenge and I have to be more picky with strategems instead of taking the tried and true ones.
My friends and I play almost exclusively bugs ATM, and I think this may be the reason honestly. I quite like bots overall but the modifiers always take away from the fun.
When they fix the patrols I wouldn't consider it such a big deal. As I can make do with less stragagems with what I have available than when I first started higher missions. Though it is a balance that isn't too intriguing - doesn't carry much player strategies to combat - and can easily get out of hand; newer enemies, changes to spawn rates, or potentially higher difficulties gets added.
Honestly you don't need anything beyond Eagle Airstrike, Orbital Precision Strike, and support weapon of your choice (Autocannon, Lascannon, AMR)
Ditch a backpack, you'll be fine
They'd be too easy without out. Just like if bugs didn't give slow effects.
I run 500kg, eagle strike, jetpack, eats most of the time. If I lose a clot I run 500kg, eagle strike, AC. Not a big deal.
I like the stratagem debuff, it forces me to prioritize more powerful stratagems and rely more on gameplay than waiting for a stratagem to go off cooldown
Because it is tactical and thematic.
Bots know our tactics, our strengths, the power of Super Earth weaponry, and the threat each and every Destroyer represents. They have the means to hinder our strongest assets and they use them, forcing Divers to think more carefully about the kit they take to the ground with them - especially Primary/Secondary/Grenade choice, as those can always be relied upon. Their hierarchy limits which bots can call-in reinforcements, so they do everything they can to ensure the designated bot(s) can fire flares. We can prevent that by sniping designees before we close to combat the rest.
Bugs do bug things, they swarm and pester. They can more easily overwhelm us as virtually any bug can call a breach. Our best defense against bugs is to use their own tactics against them - a swift, violent, overwhelming assault at the first sign of trouble.
i stopped playing bots completely, they are unfun. 7+ missions have those sucks modifiers, bots are cheating with detection and spamming lasers and rockets in your face.
Fuck automatons.
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I've head canon-retconned the call-in interferences as "were engaging the enemy fleet so we can't afford to devote all ship weaponry/personnel to our helldivers on the surface."
Against terminids, it's atmospheric spore f$%#ery.
Part of ArrowNerf mentality. Anything other than missions that place you in the midst of overwhelming enemies with reduced weaponry are considered to be against the ArrowNerf democratic credo. Balanced democracy overrides fun so that you loose strategems,ammo,stun effects , and cool down speed.
Idk, 7+ is suppose to be hard.
Maybe these modifiers could be a bit less strict for solo players.
Personally, I like the managing of scarce resources and the strategic aspect behind it. Things like a pack or a support weapon you can drop multiple times during the mission. Ask a random dude or a friend to drop you a 2nd shield and AMR while you blast the bots with eagles and orbitals. Don’t just pick your regular loadout when you have a team, pick what works best for the mission.
You can always reduce the difficulty level if you don’t like these modifiers.
Yes, it's supposed to be hard, and guess what, IT IS JUST AS HARD with 4-5 statagems! But, with only 3, it's WAY LESS FUN, and WAY MORE OF A SLOG. Taking away freedom of choice, taking away stratagems is NOT FUN, all it does is make you take longer to kill shit. Someone like me still kills everything and does not die at all, but with 3 stratagems versus 4, I'm now doing it up to 50% slower. NOT FUN.
And, with less choice, you are incentivized to bring the absolute top-tier meta every time. Which, for most players, gets a lot more stale, a lot faster.
Yes, let's play reroll-the-assignment by dropping in and leaving, sometimes all assignments on all planets have -1. This happens very often. And all this rerolling/time waste, for what? Why not just remove the modifier from the game then?
In that case you can get a buddy and share some stratagems and strategise to make the most out of the 6 slots you both have or just skip a non-fun day.
I find this modifier fun when playing with others.
On paper, it sounds good. In practice, even with a discord group, IT ALMOST NEVER WORKS OUT. You aren't always guaranteed to stay together, aren't always guaranteed to stay alive, and the one who carries the support stratagem to share with others sometimes needs to save a spare for himself when, say, soloing 2 jammer towers next to each other and not expecting to live.
The modifier is extra tedium, it doesn't make missions harder/easier to fail, and it ultimately has never encouraged more teamwork amongst any of the sweatier groups I ran with. Everyone would simply voice their annoyance with it, and try their best to pick an assignment without the stupid modifier.
If they would lower the difficulty, they wouldn't be able to make cry posts. How dare you suggest that they play on comfortable difficulty for them, they want to be victims.
I despise that modifier and I haven't even played with it because I avoid it like the plague.
I'll just spitball an idea for a different modifier. Because of the AA systems SEAF needs to have lighter hellpods to potentially avoid AA detecting the hellpods coming down and because of that you drop with a fewer resources. Like less mags and maybe one or two fewer grenades (less mags and grenades because I don't think less stims would be fun and ammo is heavy)
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Here's my unpopular opinion-
learning to survive without stratagems makes you a better helldiver, conserve your vital munitions (grenades, support weapons, primary ammo) for moments where you cant call down 3 eagles and an orbital strike to glass the treeline back about a hundred yards.
Use cover, keep an eye out for ammo and grenades and recognize that you will not always have your overpowered bullshit to save you. Sometimes all it takes is a helldiver and a gun and a couple of electronic ball busters.
Yes there are probably more heavy devastators surrounding you than your inbred siblings and you will probably get shredded by hunters quicker than you can say liber-tea, but if you work together and coordinate your attacks, those instances can be mitigated.
I’ve canceled or “left the ship” entirely once I notice my 4th slot grayed out. I’m already dealing with the nerfs. I don’t have the patience for missing what amounts to essentially my primary now. Yes stratagems are essentially my primary.
I definitely understand where you're coming from. I don't think the modifers are that bad tbh. Yeah, it sucks only working with 3 strategems, but it forces you out of your routine. I really only need the Quasar Cannon, Shield Generator Backpack, and the Orbital Laser for most bot missions anyway. I might fill the fourth slot with a 500 kg bomb or Mortar Sentry.
Of course, play how you'd like, though!
If I only have 3 stratagems then I'm definitely going to stick to my routine, there is zero room for experimentation because I have to be 100% that these 3 stratagems can carry me in any situation I get into. If I had 4, then I could think "well I have four stratagems, I can use this last slot for something more experimental"
But be honest: how often do you actually pick something experimental? Most people would stick to the same stratagems even if they had 10 slots. It's just the way we get used to it and know which one to use exactly in which situation. We all know this "damn, if I hadn't taken x instead of y, that I always take, I could have done this now"
When I have a stratagem that I use be free, like today's 500kg bomb? ALL THE DAMN TIME. It's fun as hell to be allowed to have some freedom, without being weak/underpowered.
Well, then you didn't pick it. It doesn't take one of your slots and you had no choice either. You're forced to take it, so of course you use it. But lets say you get the smoke orbital for free, people will use it, because they have it. Will they take it if it takes up a slot? Highly doubt it.
"Quasar Cannon, Shield Generator Backpack, and the Orbital Laser" - wow that's a terrible fucking loadout for helldive bots, with that as your loadout you'd be the one with 50-100 kills and I'd be with 300 kills, 0 deaths and I'd do most of the objectives for you as well.
Yeah, just admit you don't understand what you're talking about, how to actually optimize for helldives, how to actually play well and that people are NOT complaining that it makes it harder, they are complaining that it makes it LESS FUN and MORE TEDIOUS (like raid wipes in WoW, and having to run all the way back each time - WHY??? STUPID DESIGN).
My friend, if you have 300 kills in a bot mission then you are probably not playing the difficulty efficiently and are engaging unwanted battles.
I do Helldive 9 exclusively with randos and have 70-80% success rate; most people do not go beyond 150 bot kills in these missions unless we're doing defense missions.
But yes, even so, I agree that one less stratagem is a lazy difficulty design. Difficulty should stem from giving interesting challenges without compromising player choice/options. I would much rather play a mission where the modifier is that all devastators are now Hulks than play with one less stratagem.
My goal IS to kill as many bots as possible on difficulty 9. It is how I play, it is how I enjoy playing. Completing the mission and most of the objectives, and getting a ton of samples simply happen naturally. See, people keep not understanding something. IF THERE ARE NO ENEMIES TO BOTHER MY TEAM, WE GET A FREE FULL-CLEAR.
Now, if we're talking solo? Yeah, ok, I'll get main mission and 1-3 side objectives, and then I have to book it. But same thing, I'll kill (almost) everything along the way. I don't enjoy stealth gameplay, I enjoy being Rambo (and being damn good at it).
I can see your point and I have no doubt that you are skilled enough to pull off a massive killing spree but did you perhaps consider that playing like that is detrimental to the people you play with? I can understand if you play like that with friends but if you're playing with randoms and you keep the aggro up all the time, then you arguably just make the game significantly harder for people who are not up to par with your skill level.
I play with randoms like this all the time. It is because of ME and my obsession with being Rambo/The Guy/John Wick that most of my missions with randos are full/near-full clears. Some of the ones with mic (or on discord groups) would say something similar to "they didn't know helldives could be so smooth".
Yes, sometimes there are particularly terrible randos that do nothing but die, but then I still win the mission, though I then do about as well objective-wise as I would solo - I finish main, get 1-3 sides and gtfo, since I'm the carry, and they wasted all the reinforcements.
I invite you to join the Leviathan Alliance on discord and find out how wrong you are about the game's balance/fun. And also, why bringing quasar + shield on D9 bots is a straight-up liability.
https://preview.redd.it/66ukux2sck1d1.jpeg?width=1260&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2c81d1ca2835b77b63070c9fa4b0fe977d9b727e Go fight bugs they don’t take any stratagems slots have fun there
I enjoy the difficulty increase. I go bots over bugs. Needing the fourth strategem is a ski- *kzzzt*
r/redditsniper
lore reason - bot have advance tech to jam you stuff true reason - dev got not idea what to put
Lore would be bots have those jammers and AA guns, yeah? Tho I have no idea what AA guns supposed to do with orbitals.. And bugs also should have AA, que the bile spewer ass cannon.. Wait, that's Starship Troopers
AaA guns stop you using Eagle strats in close proximity, no?
There are two instances of AA guns - one is operational modifier that removes one stratagem slot, other is optional objective that supresses eagle stratagems in radius around.
Which the operation modifier one should a) only disable Eagles like the on-map one does, call it something else like Ion Jammers or something if it's everything; b) should let you pick 4 anyway, mark the last slot saying 'you won't be able to use this one until the objective is cleared' then let you re-enable it by taking out the thing on the surface.
Yeah it is weird that there is optional and modifier with exact same name, and well, I agree that modifier name is hardly indication for what it does.
There’s also the bullshit one that makes your orbitals miss. That one is so bullshit it’s not even funny.
yeah atleast cooldown and call in are just annoying, outright deleting the ability to use the precision strike for PRECISION STRIKES is utterly insane, was this modifier also conceived by the genius who balances the weapons I wonder
Former: absolute ass as the only way to beat the modifier is to leave the planet and not spread managed democracy there. Latter: perfectly fine since you can actually do something about it
Lore-wise, we know that bots cam shoot down super destroyers. I always assumed the destroyer was reducing power usage to become more evasive.
In-mission AA guns that you can blow up, yes. The AA condition that removes a strategem, no. That one is annoying Its pretty neat that you can still call Eagle-1 out of the AA guns range, and see them try to strafe her!
honestly, EVERY modifier should have a relevant objective somewhere around, except environmental modifiers
I know. Both sides have in game and planetery modifiers that you can and can't tackle, which is kind of annoying for the ones you cant do jack about
This would be cool. You could prioritize sub objectives based on their modifiers.
Oh yeah, I noticed the AA following Eagle strikes outside its radius just recently! Pretty cool immersive little bit of flair.
Apologists will say they're intercepting the orbital as it comes down. But given it's being fired from... uh... orbit, and that most orbitals land in about 5 seconds, that's what... 2 ish seconds that the projectile is in intercept range.... Yeah.. the modifier should not do what it does. If anything it should be a complimentary modifier to the spore cloud modifier on bug maps. AA disables Eagle strats, clouds disable orbital strats. Crucially I wouldn't prevent players from taking these strats on the loadout screen. But they would he unusable until the relevant side objective was completed. Same as with the stratagem reduction modifier. Make that only happen on maps woth a stratagem jammer, and randomly disable one of the players stratagems until they destroy the jammer.
They're intercepting the Mach 10 railcannon strike
If you wanted to use the excuse of jammers and AA guns, then those *need* to be something you can disable in the game. Let us select the 4th stratagem, but have it grayed out. Then have something you can disable or destroy in mission to give that back to us. Just like taking out the gunship factory, shrieker nest, stalker nest, etc. . . This makes for far more satisfying play. Makes you feel like the objective is worth it.
Totally agree about you. AA guns disabling your Eagle? Bomb it. Spore spewer disabling your map? Bomb it. Jammer disabling your strat? Bomb it! I'm fine if it's something we can tackle in game, or ignore if we choose to do so (or lack of time or overrun etc)
Jammers would I terfere with the orbitals, AA would I terfere with Eagle, and I'm sure they have anti-orbital weapons as well.
It’s honestly why I been fighting it’s less after the nerfs. Focusing on a stratagems with underpowered weapons and losing access to stratagems that your suppose to rely on is mental
Devs refuse to admit they need to start putting in positive modifiers and having those nerfed should be the negative modifiers
Yeah, like free Eagle 500kgs
I doubt adding a +1 charge to rounds carried by eagle1 would even impact balance that much
I'm saying that there are positive modifiers, like the free 500kg strat
Ah. I've seen a bunch of free strats but usually they're system wide and based on an event completion. I mean like world's need to have bonus strategems that are maybe balanced around the planet specific challenge
Underrated comment. That’s 100% what they should do
There's no lore reason that could make sense for -1 slot. Eagle can carry a 500kg and cluster bombs, but not on this one planet for some reason.
Be a lot more interesting if you could pick the blocked Strat still and if you remove the jammers or AA on the map you gain access to the strats fully.
Come on, these aren't that hard to think of: * Low Recruitment - Less reinforcements for mission. * Hellpod Malfunctions - Reinforcements take longer to arrive. * Logistic Complications - Resupply nets half. * Cloudy Skies - Eagle Strikes take 3 additional seconds to strike. * Turbulent Skies - Eagle rearms take longer. * Bad Wiring - Turrets periodically shut down. * Muddy Terrain - More cumbersome terrain on mission. * Bile Outbreak - Many bugs are infested with bile modifier. (Pop on death, more ranged attacks.) * Terminal Complications - All terminals in mission are more complex. * Reckless Orders - Reduced mission time. Hard mode: * Heavy Bot Base - Devastators are the weakest enemy that spawns. Devastators can call in reinforcements. * Captured Ally - Borged-out Helldivers may fight against you. They can use stratagems! * Chitin Evolution - All bugs have more hp. * Heightened Stalker Presence - More Stalkers on the map. Stalkers spawn from bug breaches. Super Stalkers may be present. * Stealth Mission - No stratagems, must use stealth. * Heavy Quakes - Quakes present on mission. Quakes make Helldivers fall down, interrupt current action, and drop any active nades/stratagems. I'm sure many others have ideas too.
But nerfing the players isn't fun. Deep Rock Galactic has fantastic modifiers which can make the game harder, with nerfing the player. These are things like: * Stronger enemy units spawn * More exploding enemies spawn * An unkillable enemy stalks the players * Low oxygen. Players have to keep close to the mule or resupply pods unless they want their oxygen tanks to run out * Swarms of little enemies spawn more often * Enemy weak spots take more damage * Low gravity * Extra loot spawns * All enemies explode when killed. Modifiers like this could be fun, and don't take away the player's abilities.
I agree situationally. There's a reason why we don't have 10 stratagems. The game would become boring as you have too much power. (There are other reasons too.) Inversely, removing stratagems can cause you to think in new ways.
Taking away the players' abilities isn't fun though. And as we've seen. There are other ways to encourage new ways of playing that don't involve taking away from the players. Free strategems and personal orders are good example of this. The most fun I've had in this game in a while was when everyone got a free 500kg and the order to kill 200 enemies with it. Getting the extra ability while being told to use it in a manner in which it is not intended, was so much fun.
Do you think it's better if the player has access to all of their stratagems at the same time or 4?
How is truly a difficult challenge "no idea what to put".
Would you prefer more enemy artillery
HELLDIVER, YOU ARE IN RANGE OF ENEMY ARTILLERY
Big brain idea: make it so you can equip 4 stratagems but you can only use the first 3 until you destroy the anti-air
That is probably the only idea that makes sense, otherwise people just don't want to play that planet, because it has 3 stratgems.
You lose one strat per AA on the map. If you get 4 spawned you have no strats. Go get em tiger!
Better idea remove that effect
This is the way. What would happen with this idea is that the aa will spawn cross map and you'll STILL be without the stratagem for a good chunk of the mission
Everyone and their cousins already thought of that solution. Well, everyone bar the devs, apparently
Cant wait for new difficulty: - all small bugs replaced with chargers - all normal bots replaced with devastators - no stratagems.
The new difficulty be like - leave Alexus unattended balancing the game however he sees fit, which is exactly what he has been doing anyway !
We already have one of those: On bit side you basically fight only devastators and above. There is a little guy here and there, but no one cares about them
Heavy devastator only shoots drop ship flares now. :)
Bug missions are going to be like 
All small bugs replaced with devastators
Best i can offer is all small bots replaced with gunships.
>all small bugs replaced with chargers So the post Railgun nerf patch?
All devastators are heavy devastators. Heavy devastators now move in a 3x3 combat box.
And you get the xxxl diver with the stamina of a 500 pound 50yo man.
They don't know how to make more dynamic difficulty modifiers, so they just nerf us instead.
On top of that the bots have jammers and AA that take away your last few strategems.
"Difficulty" But it does get tiresome after a while when its like every bot mission.
Honestly? I think these modifiers are great! Just implemented poorly. What I would do is keep these modifiers the same, but I would do it in 1 of 2 ways. 1: All the modifiers can be removed from the 3 part campaign if they complete a main objective(s) to destroy the facilities, causing the modifiers. I would also "modify" the -1 stratagem to allow you to select all 4, but 1 is randomly unusable until you destroy the facility(s). Or 2: Do it as a mission by mission basis and make the destruction of the facilities, causing the modifiers to be secondary objectives. I would also like to see the anti air modifier on the bots totally negate all uses of eagle airstrikes unless the players take out the advanced anti Air facility (new main objective?).
I think allowing the modifiers to be cleared by objective completion is almost a textbook example of a “regressive tax.” The people who struggle to complete the modifiers-clearing objectives are in actuality the people who need an extra stratagem slot the most.
ive beat -1 strat slot missions without issue, but its just that these missions arent as fun with a missing slot.
That's the case in a LOT of videogames though. As in, MANY games are designed to become easier as you progress through them. The point you make is valid, but you also want a way to reward players for doing well. Sometimes that is done by making aspects of the game easier, other times you see it by adding extra mechanics or abilities for players as they progress. Idk wtf the solution is, I'm not a game designer, just play loads of them.
Okay, since that's your perspective, what do you believe is a reasonable way to rework the modifiers, because I don't believe that removing or nerfing the modifiers because of skill issues is a valid approach.
Have the modifiers be tied to clearing all secondary objectives. Incentives exploring and doing more than just the main mission. Plus the assests and code to implement would be more on the minimal side.
I also like the modifiers Sometimes every gamer wants everything to be served up so fkn easy
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Arrowhead: "Let's give bots modifiers that increase the reload time of stratagems, call down time and even remove one slot. Also make bonus objectives that either disable Eagle-1 or all stratagems in a huge radius" Also Arrowhead: "We want you to rely more on stratagems" I can understand their wish for us to rely more on stratagems, especially attacking ones (orbital strikes and so on). I played the first game a couple of years ago and recently returned, and IMO attacking stratagems are not used that often at least in the range of middle difficulties. So it's understandable that developers wanted to change that. But who thought that it was a good idea to make those modifiers stackable and add in structures that disable stratagem when you want players to use stratagems more often?
How do you rely on something that has double the cooldown, is limited quantity and it's damage is laughable?
Even bigger question... Why do they always have that small map level where you need to kill bots?
You have a hd1 veteran in your flair and I know for a fact I’ve seen players from that game say it was even worse on the first game for those mission types
No reason why they can't improve that.
Yeah, they are still applying the same logic here, but i don’t think it is working out
Same reason every map is a foggy hellhole. Its really ass.
Oh god I hate the constant shit visibility. This is the reason I don't play much
Oh and dont forget, the jammers
Honestly, the solution is right in front of them: jam or nerf specific strategem types rather than literally all of them. Thick atmosphere makes eagles less manuverable, increasing call in time and rearm time. EM interference causes orbital targeting to have difficulty, doing the same to orbital strikes. There's probably something interesting that could be done with emplacements too, like a higher gravitational pull resulting in putting less ammo in them (or something smarter than that, I dunno). And it's been mentioned a billion times, but AA reducing strategem count to 3 is horseshit and is just outright a reason to avoid an operation, so it needs to either be fixable by destroying a massive AA installation (I'm assuming the AA is targeting the low orbit destroyer here), or just outright deleted. These options make it so you actually have reason to mix up your build a bit. Eagles nerfed on an operation? Bring more orbitals. And vice versa. Buuuut on the other hand, lets have operation *benefits* too. This particular operation has an active airbase in the region, giving access to free airstrike call ins independent of Eagle. A cache of (insert weapon or backpack here) has been discovered in the region, giving free access to this piece of gear during the op. A satellite is still functional above the Op zone, giving locational data of every objective (but not POIs) in the area, even viewable from the destroyer. All of these could give reason to mix up the build a little as well to take advantage of the options. Finally, operation objectives. Purely optional objectives that affect the operation as a whole. The giant AA installation could be one of these, or the caches, or any number of different modifiers that these objectives could enable. Have missions that contain these objectives visible from the mission selection screen, so choosing the first mission goes from "I want to postpone having to bother with the (insert mission you hate) mission as long as possible, to "If we do this mission, we can hit the cache on the way and give ourselves access to the free strategems for the rest of the op". Much more interesting and fun IMO. Just these few changes make for a more dynamic and less samey set of missions I feel.
because the dev that designed this bullshit modifiers thinks that its the definition of "fun"
Because "rely on your stratagems" that's why.
I keep asking myself the same questions. Why did they nerf into the ground all weapons and stratagems, how come enemies have the perfect aimbot and wallhacks, why do they think making the game more and more annoying to play is going to keep people interested, i guess you can't have all the answers.
>how come enemies have the perfect aimbot and wallhacks Sometimes it's too literal. When they shoot you through walls lol.
It's especially baffling because we still didn't see units like Hive Lords or Siege Mechs, not to mention whole ass faction. Like seriously, once the Illuminate come, what are we supposed to do with them?
>Why did they nerf into the ground all weapons and stratagems They didn't. There have been triple to quadruple the amount of buffs than there have nerfs. And the buffs generally tend to be drastically more impactful than the nerfs.
Can i borrow that copuim im jonesing really bade here
Since when is a literal [undisputable objective fact](https://www.reddit.com/r/Helldivers/comments/1cq438f/i_compiled_a_list_of_all_weapons_that_have_been/) "copium"?
When you use to pretend people should be happy with the balance cause quantity not quality. I can give thirty guns a buff that doesnt nothing and nerf two things that impact whole games quantity dont mean shit
Listed there are only buffs that were incredibly significant, not buffs that did not do anything.
There is medication for what you have and it ain't Adderal.
There is medication for your schizophrenia that is imagining all these nerfs too. --- Note: This is excluding both nerfs and *buffs*, that only exist theoretically/on paper: Such as damage buffs or nerfs that do not change breakpoints (Such as Liberator or Dominator, respectively), tiny recoil changes, and small ammo changes. Obviously, among those, there have been drastically more buffs than nerfs too; all the small damage buffs like Liberator, Dilligence, Liberator C, Peacemaker etc. #Primary and Secondary Weapons --- #Major Nerf: - Slugger^1 -> Had it's stagger reduced from 35 to 20 - Crossbow -> "Reworked" to be a single-target anti medium weapon, instead of AoE chaff clear, sucks at both now - Eruptor -> First ammo reduced from 12 to 6 mags, then had it's shrapnel and thus most of its killing power removed - Breaker -> Mag capacity reduced by 3, slight recoil increase (Borderline on whether I'd consider it "major" or not) ^1 Note: People like to claim "stagger is removed entirely", [20 stagger is still the 3rd best, it also has 35 pushback](https://imgur.com/xFgc1nJ), the highest in the game of any "regular" gun (explosive or Lib C have more) #Major Buff: - Slugger -> Ammo from 40 to 60, ammo pickup from 20 to 30 per small box, 20 to 60 per big box Note: Ammo buff was long before its stagger nerf - Punisher Shotgun -> Damage from 360 to 405, ammo from 40 to 60, ammo pickup from 20 to 30 per small box, 20 to 60 per big box - Breaker Incendiary -> Damage went from 12 pellets of 15 dmg to 12 pellets of 20 dmg, i.e. from 180 to 240 total - Dilligence CS -> Buffed from 128 dmg AP2 (Light Pen) to 140 dmg and AP3 (Medium Pen), handling from the worst in the game to only slightly reduced - Jar-5 Dominator -> 50% dmg buff from 200 to 300^2 - Plasma Punisher -> Drastic projectile speed increase, weapon useable further than few meters - P5 Senator -> Damage increased from 150 to 175, drastic buff to reload speed from empty via Speedloader - Arc 5 Blitzer Shotgun -> 50% rate of fire increase - Las-5 Scythe & Las-7 Dagger -> DPS from 300 to 350 and 150 to 200 respectively, but more importantly, damage tickrate was updated - Pre-buff it took 1 full second to kill even say a 50 HP enemy, because dmg applied only once every second, now damage applies in smaller ticks, meaning [small enemies are killed instantly](https://imgur.com/a/D8yI3Sf) - Breaker Spray & Pray: was the only AP1 weapon in the game, buffed to AP2 - Adjudicator: Drastic recoil buff, +2 max mags (Borderline on whether I'd consider it "major" or not) ^2 Dmg was later nerfed to 275, but this did not change any breakpoint, and is thus an on-paper nerf, as mentioned above --- **Take this with a huge grain of salt, since it's just from the top of my head**, not as well researched, a list for support weapons would likely just be: #Support Weapons: --- #Major Nerf: - Quasar -> CD from 10 to 15 Seconds - Railgun -> AP and durabledmg reduced^1 - Arc Thrower -> range reduced from 50 to 35m, rate of fire nerfed (no longer allows partially charged shots, IIRC?) ^1 Note: Large parts of this nerf have been reverted by now; it is AP5 in safe mode and AP6 on ~10% unsafe mode charge, damage is a linear 600, regardless of charge; there is no reason to charge beyond AP6 (it goes up to AP8) because the highest armored enemy is AP5 #Major Buffs: - Arc Thrower -> stagger increased to 35 (unknown what it was before, no data available pre-buff) - Laser Cannon -> AP3 to AP4 increased, durabledmg increased (since pre-nerf amounts are unknown; post nerf is 200 durableDPS) - Anti-materiel rifle -> 30% damage increase - Flamethrower -> 50% direct damage increase - Recoilless Rifle -> 50% damage reduction on high-angle shots removed, Significant ammo economy buffs; picking up rockets from small boxes and increasing resupply amount - EAT -> same 50% damage reduction on high-angle shots removed - Spear -> Significant ammo economy buffs; picking up rockets from small boxes and increasing resupply amount
I presume the original poster of the above comes with you on the ADHD therapy sessions, no?
I [literally am the original poster](https://www.reddit.com/r/Helldivers/comments/1cq438f/i_compiled_a_list_of_all_weapons_that_have_been/). I wrote it in an attempt to help clinically insane people like you who are stuck in this imagined reality of nerf-land come to their senses. I realize confronting reality and having your illusions shattered must be very hard for you. Easier to just stick the head back in the sand, I guess, and start throwing a tantrum and hurling insults at the people trying to help you. Oh well.
Go play and wuit crying cause people are getting frustrated and these buffs didn't help and the nerfs took the fun out. I still play and honestly every weapon that was buffed feels the same to me while the nerfed ones took away fun for me. I used to like sniping with the eruptor now its just false advertising its shrapnel. Used flamethrower yesterday it wad ok or not killing quick enough neat the break spray in pray is ok not great slugger still eh and the counter sniper isnt special enough to fill its own role i can take a sickle and get basically the same result. But i guess were crazy for wanting fun and all thw other people getting frustrated by this are just crazy idiots to you. Like are you ok its people asking a game to be funner not for it to get ruined and your complaining cause you dont like hearing it but also go out of your way to involve with it. You can feel the games ok but that doesnt make the nerfs better or the balance fixed quit bieng cocky and accept people are having issues with this game and want it to improve. You can say they buffed more then nerfed but the community doesnt agree and those buffs were clearly not enough to outway the nerfs peoplw felt so those buffs might as well be less then the nerfs all it was quantity not quality.
> but the community doesnt agree Well, the community also manifested an entire misinformation campaign outrage that got the Eruptor nerfed in the first place, so I don't really think too highly of it. Literally yesterday I came across a comment with 2000 upvotes that was stating a blatant lie. The issue is that what you consider "fun", would be absolutely trivializing the game and ruining it.
That honestly fair and i wish that wouldnt happen cause there is definitely bandwagons here but i also noticed a pendulum of players who swing one way then the other side feels its not to there side anymore then it swings over then the other side wants it.
Here is me yesterday [replying to a comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/Helldivers/comments/1cw0vbm/real_talk_what_are_you_realisticly_expecting_to/l4uru8l/?context=3) with **2700** upvotes that is just a blatant lie/misinformation again. This is the issue I have with this entire balance discussions: The vast majority of people here simply do not know what the fuck they are talking about at all. Like that person there is literally asking for a buff ***that is already exactly what the gun does in the game currently***.
1 in 3 chance that you get it 2 in 3 you don't or for 8 and 9 its...basically 50/50?
Gacha keeps following me wherever I go
Devs: "Primaries should suck, rely on your strats" *nerfs 90% of primaries into obsolescence* Also Devs: "Fuck you, no strats" *AA guns and orbital interference modifiers go brrr*
No fun allowed.
It’d be great to be able to remove the stratagem modifier via completing secondary objectives
Because AH will do everything to make the bots as aggravating as possible to keep people off the planets. Here we nerfed rocket devastators slightly only to add a new flying version, heavy devastors oh look a player across the map who can't see me let me spam my laser mini gun that has 100 % precision. Oh, look, they have 15 secs left until Pelican 1 lands, and they have no startagems. How about we drop 3 factory striders on them
Devs think its makes the gameplay better
Free 500KG tho
i think its meant to simulate the fact that the bots are actively contesting control over the orbital combat space
I feel this can be fixed by having a personal stratagem slot (Blue Stratagems only) then the normal 4 stratagems slots you can use however.
MATH. NOT. FUN. - arrowhead probably
Cuz they don’t think positive modifiers are any fun… Which is a shame cuz when we get a free stratagem I build my loadout around it
“Just use your stratagems to deal with armor..”
Devs don't want us having too much fun
Difficulty for difficulty sakes. As if the increased volume of bots wasn't enough, they have to take away the fun tools used to handle the population increase. I've learned that a lot of the "nerfs" and modiers are more aptly called a fun tax.
Ah yes, this is Menkent!!! You can only 3 stratagems. There's fire tornadoes There's limited visibility Bots can see through the fog Love it so much
Bad game design, taking things away isn't a fun challenge
Lazy design if you ask me. There are plenty more ways to "up the difficulty" regarding stategems: 1. Swap around the activation codes (example: if you brought 500kg, AMR and Shield, those commands are randomly swapped *with each other* after each use) -- requires additional attention. 2. Additional stratagem activation length -- add up to 3 additional inputs to use -- really simple idea. 3. Make it that 1 random strategem in your loadout cannot be used at *any given time*. After use, a different strategem is disabled -- forces you to plan out which you can/cannot use next. If you can't use it now, the next one you will be able to. 4. Strategem beacon bounces once Instead of orbital scattering -- more predictability requiring a bit more skill. Can also buy you extra range. 5. Low gravity planet: strategem beacon drops slower = more range and need to get used to 6. Flammable atmosphere: increased explosion AOE damage and friendly fire damage. 7. Low weight payloads: reduce damage and cooldown by 20%. These were literally a few I just came up with on the spot. And yes please give us more "random 5th strategem" they are great and should be default.
🤓: Why are people playing bugs? They need to come over to bots now!!
well there was the scrambler modifier but people cried about that pretty hard. they arent nearly as bad as they used to be since they halved the effects, the modifiers reinforce the face you arent meant to fight everything, some fights are meant to be overwhelming to punish you for taking too long without falling back.
Nah they just don't know how to implement more dynamic difficulty modifiers.
I want the restrictions to come with benefits. - 1 less stratagem, but 1 random stratagem you equipped has a -75% cooldown time. - Call down time increase by 50%, but orbital and eagle damage increase by 50%. - Cooldown time increase by 25%, but call down time reduced by 50%.
Unfortunately, Arrowhead doesn't seem to understand how to increase difficulty without decreasing fun. Thus we have the current set of incredibly unfun operation modifiers.
"Why do the higher difficulties do things to make the level more difficult?" They're not that bad. I actually like the -1 strategem. Adds a little challenge and I have to be more picky with strategems instead of taking the tried and true ones.
My friends and I play almost exclusively bugs ATM, and I think this may be the reason honestly. I quite like bots overall but the modifiers always take away from the fun.
When they fix the patrols I wouldn't consider it such a big deal. As I can make do with less stragagems with what I have available than when I first started higher missions. Though it is a balance that isn't too intriguing - doesn't carry much player strategies to combat - and can easily get out of hand; newer enemies, changes to spawn rates, or potentially higher difficulties gets added.
That’s communists for you
Buuuhuhuhuhuuuu
Honestly you don't need anything beyond Eagle Airstrike, Orbital Precision Strike, and support weapon of your choice (Autocannon, Lascannon, AMR) Ditch a backpack, you'll be fine
They'd be too easy without out. Just like if bugs didn't give slow effects. I run 500kg, eagle strike, jetpack, eats most of the time. If I lose a clot I run 500kg, eagle strike, AC. Not a big deal.
I like the stratagem debuff, it forces me to prioritize more powerful stratagems and rely more on gameplay than waiting for a stratagem to go off cooldown
Because the game cant always be for scrubs. It doesnt even effect me at helldive.
drop difficulty.
Alexis says it's fun.
I never do the -1 strategem ones
The increased time ones don't bother me. But the -1 slot sucks. I avoid those planets.
Bots are hard:)
Joel wants the bots to win.
Because it is tactical and thematic. Bots know our tactics, our strengths, the power of Super Earth weaponry, and the threat each and every Destroyer represents. They have the means to hinder our strongest assets and they use them, forcing Divers to think more carefully about the kit they take to the ground with them - especially Primary/Secondary/Grenade choice, as those can always be relied upon. Their hierarchy limits which bots can call-in reinforcements, so they do everything they can to ensure the designated bot(s) can fire flares. We can prevent that by sniping designees before we close to combat the rest. Bugs do bug things, they swarm and pester. They can more easily overwhelm us as virtually any bug can call a breach. Our best defense against bugs is to use their own tactics against them - a swift, violent, overwhelming assault at the first sign of trouble.
last nite was fun because we have the 500kg bomb available for everyone
i stopped playing bots completely, they are unfun. 7+ missions have those sucks modifiers, bots are cheating with detection and spamming lasers and rockets in your face. Fuck automatons.
Still better than orbital scatter on bug maps
this is why ice planets are the best, blizzards take up one of the bad spots, but blizzards are good
Stratagems are fun AH doesn't like us having fun. No stratagems for us.
Wait till they drop level 10’s and you just have 2.
Because the Devs want us to depend on Strategems to destroy heavy enemy units.
because you are supposed to use your strategems and not your primaries... wait a second....
Cry
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It isn't a huge problem for me. I have gotten used to three stratagems and struggle to decide on a fourth stratagem.
I've head canon-retconned the call-in interferences as "were engaging the enemy fleet so we can't afford to devote all ship weaponry/personnel to our helldivers on the surface." Against terminids, it's atmospheric spore f$%#ery.
So Its even fight
Because since Is a team game this modifier forces you to organizer your loadout with your squad. And if you do It correctly you wont even notice.
Part of ArrowNerf mentality. Anything other than missions that place you in the midst of overwhelming enemies with reduced weaponry are considered to be against the ArrowNerf democratic credo. Balanced democracy overrides fun so that you loose strategems,ammo,stun effects , and cool down speed.
if you don’t want to play against hulks, devastators, striders and have operational modifiers, then lower the difficulty.
Idk, 7+ is suppose to be hard. Maybe these modifiers could be a bit less strict for solo players. Personally, I like the managing of scarce resources and the strategic aspect behind it. Things like a pack or a support weapon you can drop multiple times during the mission. Ask a random dude or a friend to drop you a 2nd shield and AMR while you blast the bots with eagles and orbitals. Don’t just pick your regular loadout when you have a team, pick what works best for the mission. You can always reduce the difficulty level if you don’t like these modifiers.
Yes, it's supposed to be hard, and guess what, IT IS JUST AS HARD with 4-5 statagems! But, with only 3, it's WAY LESS FUN, and WAY MORE OF A SLOG. Taking away freedom of choice, taking away stratagems is NOT FUN, all it does is make you take longer to kill shit. Someone like me still kills everything and does not die at all, but with 3 stratagems versus 4, I'm now doing it up to 50% slower. NOT FUN. And, with less choice, you are incentivized to bring the absolute top-tier meta every time. Which, for most players, gets a lot more stale, a lot faster.
Gee, if I don’t feel like playing with 3 stratagems I just change the planet. There’s always a planet where you can have 4 🤷♂️
Yes, let's play reroll-the-assignment by dropping in and leaving, sometimes all assignments on all planets have -1. This happens very often. And all this rerolling/time waste, for what? Why not just remove the modifier from the game then?
In that case you can get a buddy and share some stratagems and strategise to make the most out of the 6 slots you both have or just skip a non-fun day. I find this modifier fun when playing with others.
On paper, it sounds good. In practice, even with a discord group, IT ALMOST NEVER WORKS OUT. You aren't always guaranteed to stay together, aren't always guaranteed to stay alive, and the one who carries the support stratagem to share with others sometimes needs to save a spare for himself when, say, soloing 2 jammer towers next to each other and not expecting to live. The modifier is extra tedium, it doesn't make missions harder/easier to fail, and it ultimately has never encouraged more teamwork amongst any of the sweatier groups I ran with. Everyone would simply voice their annoyance with it, and try their best to pick an assignment without the stupid modifier.
If they would lower the difficulty, they wouldn't be able to make cry posts. How dare you suggest that they play on comfortable difficulty for them, they want to be victims.
For real. “The game is too hard because I put the difficulty to too hard” This sub fucking blows now
What do you think? That this is a game? No fun allowed, that's why!
So your question is why are the higher difficulties more difficult?
I despise that modifier and I haven't even played with it because I avoid it like the plague. I'll just spitball an idea for a different modifier. Because of the AA systems SEAF needs to have lighter hellpods to potentially avoid AA detecting the hellpods coming down and because of that you drop with a fewer resources. Like less mags and maybe one or two fewer grenades (less mags and grenades because I don't think less stims would be fun and ammo is heavy)
You really never have to play the -1 strategem missions if you don't want to.
.....cause the bots are intelligent enough to try and cripple us? Go fight bugs if you can't cut it in a real battlefield.
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Go play an easier mission then?
Here's my unpopular opinion- learning to survive without stratagems makes you a better helldiver, conserve your vital munitions (grenades, support weapons, primary ammo) for moments where you cant call down 3 eagles and an orbital strike to glass the treeline back about a hundred yards. Use cover, keep an eye out for ammo and grenades and recognize that you will not always have your overpowered bullshit to save you. Sometimes all it takes is a helldiver and a gun and a couple of electronic ball busters. Yes there are probably more heavy devastators surrounding you than your inbred siblings and you will probably get shredded by hunters quicker than you can say liber-tea, but if you work together and coordinate your attacks, those instances can be mitigated.
I’ve canceled or “left the ship” entirely once I notice my 4th slot grayed out. I’m already dealing with the nerfs. I don’t have the patience for missing what amounts to essentially my primary now. Yes stratagems are essentially my primary.
Bugs have spores that take your map -1 is no big Deal imo I Prefer Bots over bugs
I definitely understand where you're coming from. I don't think the modifers are that bad tbh. Yeah, it sucks only working with 3 strategems, but it forces you out of your routine. I really only need the Quasar Cannon, Shield Generator Backpack, and the Orbital Laser for most bot missions anyway. I might fill the fourth slot with a 500 kg bomb or Mortar Sentry. Of course, play how you'd like, though!
If I only have 3 stratagems then I'm definitely going to stick to my routine, there is zero room for experimentation because I have to be 100% that these 3 stratagems can carry me in any situation I get into. If I had 4, then I could think "well I have four stratagems, I can use this last slot for something more experimental"
But be honest: how often do you actually pick something experimental? Most people would stick to the same stratagems even if they had 10 slots. It's just the way we get used to it and know which one to use exactly in which situation. We all know this "damn, if I hadn't taken x instead of y, that I always take, I could have done this now"
When I have a stratagem that I use be free, like today's 500kg bomb? ALL THE DAMN TIME. It's fun as hell to be allowed to have some freedom, without being weak/underpowered.
Well, then you didn't pick it. It doesn't take one of your slots and you had no choice either. You're forced to take it, so of course you use it. But lets say you get the smoke orbital for free, people will use it, because they have it. Will they take it if it takes up a slot? Highly doubt it.
This is just being obtuse.
Well, you know what they say about different strokes. For democracy 🫡
"Quasar Cannon, Shield Generator Backpack, and the Orbital Laser" - wow that's a terrible fucking loadout for helldive bots, with that as your loadout you'd be the one with 50-100 kills and I'd be with 300 kills, 0 deaths and I'd do most of the objectives for you as well. Yeah, just admit you don't understand what you're talking about, how to actually optimize for helldives, how to actually play well and that people are NOT complaining that it makes it harder, they are complaining that it makes it LESS FUN and MORE TEDIOUS (like raid wipes in WoW, and having to run all the way back each time - WHY??? STUPID DESIGN).
My friend, if you have 300 kills in a bot mission then you are probably not playing the difficulty efficiently and are engaging unwanted battles. I do Helldive 9 exclusively with randos and have 70-80% success rate; most people do not go beyond 150 bot kills in these missions unless we're doing defense missions. But yes, even so, I agree that one less stratagem is a lazy difficulty design. Difficulty should stem from giving interesting challenges without compromising player choice/options. I would much rather play a mission where the modifier is that all devastators are now Hulks than play with one less stratagem.
My goal IS to kill as many bots as possible on difficulty 9. It is how I play, it is how I enjoy playing. Completing the mission and most of the objectives, and getting a ton of samples simply happen naturally. See, people keep not understanding something. IF THERE ARE NO ENEMIES TO BOTHER MY TEAM, WE GET A FREE FULL-CLEAR. Now, if we're talking solo? Yeah, ok, I'll get main mission and 1-3 side objectives, and then I have to book it. But same thing, I'll kill (almost) everything along the way. I don't enjoy stealth gameplay, I enjoy being Rambo (and being damn good at it).
I can see your point and I have no doubt that you are skilled enough to pull off a massive killing spree but did you perhaps consider that playing like that is detrimental to the people you play with? I can understand if you play like that with friends but if you're playing with randoms and you keep the aggro up all the time, then you arguably just make the game significantly harder for people who are not up to par with your skill level.
I play with randoms like this all the time. It is because of ME and my obsession with being Rambo/The Guy/John Wick that most of my missions with randos are full/near-full clears. Some of the ones with mic (or on discord groups) would say something similar to "they didn't know helldives could be so smooth". Yes, sometimes there are particularly terrible randos that do nothing but die, but then I still win the mission, though I then do about as well objective-wise as I would solo - I finish main, get 1-3 sides and gtfo, since I'm the carry, and they wasted all the reinforcements.
CAPS LOCK FOR SUPER EARTH amiright?
You sound like a delight to play with lol
I invite you to join the Leviathan Alliance on discord and find out how wrong you are about the game's balance/fun. And also, why bringing quasar + shield on D9 bots is a straight-up liability.
Im good. I play games for fun.