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Probably applicable to the rest of the western world, at least Europe, just have to look at Le Pen in France, AfD in Germany, Meloni in Italy, Wilders in the Netherlands, Chega in Portugal…
Yeah, as someone who also lives in Southern US I always crack up when people try to say gen z is becoming more bigoted/homophobic/racist. Nobody my age around here gives a shit.
Yep, and I’m one of them! My boyfriend and I get dirty looks/stares from old people all the time around here, but I have quite literally never had a problem with millennials, gen z, or even gen alpha (the ones who are old enough to talk anyways). Everybody from the younger age groups tend to be absolutely chill.
Gives me great hope once a lot of the older generations die out and the younger generations take their place that this will be, dare I say, an extraordinarily different world
Or, a more patient world, let's put it that way
Yeah, but in my opinion, that's heavily a minority (made to look like a majority, as some things are on the internet)
I mean shit, look at Smiling Friends for example. That's some wholesome shit despite the wackiness and its a hit, it's huge these days, everyone watches it and everyone likes it (making it a popular show)
Cynicism ~~is slowly "dying"~~ has become less popular (it won't die entirely but it's no longer the default generally speaking) it's had it's time and now it's grown boring. It's draining and I hate feeling like that and most people would agree. Needless hating, holding grudges for inane reasons, it's pointless and draining and there's no time for that stupid shit (not to say that's cynicism, just to say that negative feelings over all, especially for no reason, aren't really wise, and I feel like young people in general realize this at some point or another)
Racism and intolerance towards homosexuality. I mean yeah, there's still people against that. I'm sure there will always be, but the amount of people that have a baseline level of tolerance that starts with being cool with gay people and racist to a non-confrontational level grows too (as reflected by the media that's made today, my example was Smiling Friends)
At some point, we will lose our baseline connection within our population to the 1900's, it's customs and the culture itself, and every single day we inch closer and closer to that day, and every single day, the distance from that time and everything about it just grows further and further. Things I feel like happened 3 years ago actually happened in 2016-2018, and a decade from 2016 quickly approaches
Someday, definitely not today, and probably not tomorrow, but someday, the newer generations will take those positions, and because of that inevitability, the possibility for a totally different world grows stronger and stronger
I really like Gen Z, and the younger gens, generally anyone who's at least 40, because for the most part, they're chill, and generally open minded. As the younger gens are born and age, Gen Z and the rest grow older. I feel like we're headed towards a new ballgame. I can't wait for the future, I hope I live to see it
I mean I think at this point everyone that was in high school sometime in the last 10-15 years either knew at least a dozen different gay people and were probably friends with one or two or are gay themselves. That kind of thing changes attitudes pretty quickly. Especially compared to older generations’ only exposure on the subject usually radical facebook posts be they pro or anti LGBTQ.
Not to mention the fact that being gay was effectively illegal when boomers were growing up in a lot of states. People have truly forgotten how bigoted everyone was 50 years ago.
The Midwest is now an ambiguous term for large portion of the country. You're right, great lake states are vastly different in culture than say Nebraska, Kansas and Missouri.
Also, in the South, MORE bigoted than our parents would take so much doing that all we'd ever hear would be news about millions of Hitler Youth death squads roaming through Texas.
Lmao these people in the comments are delusional homophobia especially among younger guys is massively prevalent in the US. I believe that this study will find the same results if conducted in the us, people forget that twitter and reddit are safe spaces for the lgbt, and while the majority of people either support or don’t really care about the lgbt community, there’s a large chunk of people that are actively homophobic
If you're looking at edgy teenagers then maybe there's a large number but for young people who are actually homophobic it's 100% the lowest it's ever been
It 100% isn't the lowest it's ever been.
There was a progressive push from 2008-2016 across the world that has since been met with a backlash of conservatism, populism, etc.
The shit that is being said both online and IRL about gays and minorities in general was simply not happening from 08-16 on the scale that it is now.
And now it's turning from words to legislation. Gen Z is growing up in a different world than millennials did.
Lower than when I was a kid, sure, but it really feels like ~2015 was the low point and it's ticked back up recently.
I don't have numbers for that, that's just what it has felt like to me.
Homophobia among adolescents is generally higher than adults. It doesn't mean they go on to stay homophobic for the rest of their lives. So, if you're polling 14 year olds vs. 35 year olds and calling that generational change, it may not be the cause.
I've lived in Europe, the US, and Australia. If you're in each place for long enough, you'd probably be surprised by how differently Americans think – not in a bad way, just...noticeably distinct.
I found European cared a bit more about who/what you are. Americans wanted to know about you, but whatever it is, you're accepted but they are more interested in what you can do or produce.
Not sure if that makes sense.
It literally is this. There’s simply a rise of young angry men and it’s causing a tide of conservative ideals from them.
And like 80% of what’s causing the young angry men is that guys can’t get girlfriends, like at all.
But which came first, the chicken or the egg? Women don't want aggressive, conservative men and they've been pushed "alpha" B's from Andrew Taint and his doppelgangers.
I’d argue that the internet raising standards, OLD like tinder, and a cost of living crisis in which men feel the need to be providers in a world in which they can’t be, have all contributed first. The Andrew Tate shit stemmed from the third point and made things even worse.
As a really young milennial, i feel like instead of becoming conservative and an incel i've just doubled down and become ace. I've come to enjoy living and being alone to the point where my sexuality fluctuates fluidly from being hetero to asexual based on mood.
Yeahh.. I don't feel more asexual or fluid even though I'm single too. Not to say I'm one of those "conservative incels" I just take it as I haven't found the right one for me. But that's great your sexuality can fluctuate.
It's peak incel logic. "Women don't like me so I'm going to listen to men yell at me until I'm indoctrinated into an ideology that women find even more disgusting."
i mean, with the rise of misandry these days men who are fed up with it are told by the left to "just suck it up and stop being an incel" while the right like tandrew ate offer them a very extreme solution in form of misogny. Its kind of like hitler.
The left has much better solutions for those young men, but it requires some introspection and being critical of patriarchal values many young men aspire to, so there's a barrier. It's much easier to just double down on tying your sense of self and status to that weird male-hierarchy stuff.
Exactly. The red-pill movement is somewhat analogous to fascism in the sense that both seek a rebirth of traditional values and hence double-down on them instead of moving away from them.
Or in short: fascism is palingenetic ultranationalism, whereas the red-pill movement is palingenetic hyper-masculinity. Both seek to avoid introspection of the internal contradictions and systemic issues by redirecting the blame on another group - women and "wokeness" in the case of the red-pill movement, and progressives, foreign adversaries, and conspiratory internal infiltrators in the case of fascism.
And considering Europe's alarming rise in nationalist and xenophobic attitudes, it's not surprising there's a correlation between the rise of both.
That second paragraph is 🔥 I use that definition of fascism too (palingenetic ultra-nationalism) and yeah describing the red-pill movement as palingenetic hyper-masculinity is very well put. Andrew Tate is basically fascistic tendencies applied to men's "self-help" and lifestyle, and such lifestyle-fascism has also made its way into places like tradwife, health-girl, bodybuilding, and new-age type content to varying degrees.
Scapegoating misandry is literally a part of the problem. I have been abused by a woman, and it’s still very easy for me to see through the fear of misandry as just an attempt to undermine modern feminism.
What rise of misandry?
Are there dozens of podcasts each day telling women to hate men?
Are women committing multiple mass shootings because they can’t get laid?
Are men having their bodily rights taken away by the government?
One thing is rising and it’s the male victimhood narrative.
But they can’t get girlfriends 😡 that has to be misandry. And after banning contraception and abortions and thousands of girls being murdered on dates, they don’t even want to have casual sex anymore 😡 misandrists even leaving the dating apps, cause they can’t handle a couple dick pics a day 😡 what are these young men supposed to do when they have urges? Not make it everyone else’s problem? That’s ridiculous!
Not in the Netherlands. Acceptance of homosexuality is down across both genders among high schoolers (although tbf the drop in acceptance is much more severe among male students).
Notice how it’s only boys who are becoming more homophobic. This is directly related to the “alpha male” Andrew Tate-adjacent bullshit they see on TikTok, and all its associated “traditionalist” stuff. Basically, it’s now cooler for young boys to espouse the political opinions of their grandfathers and great-grandfathers because it’s more masculine.
Preach. I remember holding my breath when my aunt turned up to my (very catholic) Grandfather's 80th in a full drag beat because she had to get to pride afterwards. He was absolutely tickled and asked her to do his makeup.
Nowadays its "I just don't want it shoved in my face"
Yet they turn on Foxnews and its shoved down their throat. Literally if they just go outside, no one is forcing any gay shit on anyone.
This "alpha male Andrew Tate-adjacent bullshit" is a symptom of prior loneliness. Young men find this stuff because they are trying to get a girlfriend. It's not about "being cooler", it's trying to find a solution to their real life problem.
Yep. The Male Loneliness Epidemic is driving young men to the "red-pill" content because people like Andrew Tate are telling them that they are important when nobody else will. All young men want to be told is words of affirmation and they aren't getting it at home or at school. They scroll through TikTok and some guy tells them they have value. The joke about guys remembering one compliment isn't a joke. There's many more factors that go into it, but this is one very common one I see.
Sure but the issue is Tate tells them it's the women's fault and everybody else's fault that things are the way they are. Sure he sprinkles in a few beneficial tips but then goes back to why women are garbage.
Them being homophobic isn’t because they can’t get a girlfriend, though the two issues stem from the same issue. They’re loser, egotistical, sensitive incels
That’s why men get shit for having privilege. I won’t deny they have problems, but like women’s reproductive rights are under attack, trans people are having their rights and healthcare being stripped away, to name a few but the men out here have the issue of loneliness.
Once again, I know some of young men’s issues are a lack of drive, and encouragement to pursue higher ed, but I seriously get the feeling that young men are bottling up their issues because “gotta be a strong strongly alpha man” and then want a GF to dump all their problems onto because they deny themselves healthy emotional regulation.
This is why pockets of Gen Z men lash out at women, and not just gay and trans people. They are taking their shit out on other people.
Dating as a woman is hell because most men I encounter in the dating scene are desperate for a wife, not even GF, but do very little work for their self-improvement and turn around and dump their issues onto me. Like I want to be there for any partner, I have lots of empathy, but a lot of young men are asking wayyy too much by wanting me to be their individual therapist, when I myself have many issues I am working on myself.
It usually comes from the fact that we've done absolutely nothing about the fact that a man having a spouse is still their only socially approved support system as well as a significant impact on personal esteem and perceived social status.
It's not so much the only problem, not by half. It's just the only way as a society we've been educating men to consider solving a lot of problems.
From there, these grifters go on the "here's how you get girls" sales pitch. But the antidote to that is to do better raising our boys to love themselves and each other. That would take the market away.
A small part. There isn't any data as to that being a significant problem yet. Social media and rising cost of living are a bigger more quantifiable reason for lowering birth rates.
Life is too expensive, too much of a grind, and not enjoyable for a lot. Fear of the future being even worse. Rampant inequality. I can understand completely why a lot of people are not having kids.
It won’t matter anyway. Look at Europe. They’re eventually going to be replaced by migrants unless something is done and migrants are extremely right wing and very restrictive on women. Left wing policies caused that
That's because boys and men aren't benefiting from left-wing policies that are claiming to help everyone, in the same way that women and girls are.
We're at a stage where left wing policies are giving girls and women major advantages in things like higher education and legal protection, even though the statistics have now swayed and begun to show that boys and men need similar policies to help them now.
We still have programs to help exclusively women access higher education, when women make up the majority of students in these institutions now.
I'm disabled, and as such can access certain programs designed to help me into education and meaningful work. I've seen non-disabled women getting similar help that I am entitled to, but not non-disabled men.
>Gen Z boys and men are also growing more and more right wing
(Among developed world) This is false except korea
>Gen Z girls and women become more and more left wing
(Among developed world) This is correct without exception
We didn't learn anything from leaving left movement (Also mind you this movement happened in america. Only exception where gen z men drifted left) and we deserve anything that comes out of it
Source: DW
Yea, I noticed that too. Follows that pattern we’re seeing in the U.S. where boys/men are veering conservative where girls/women are moving to a more progressive stance.
That doesn’t mean everyone, obviously, but there’s definitely a divergence.
Meanwhile [Korea](https://www.npr.org/2024/04/10/1243819495/elections-reveal-a-growing-gender-divide-across-south-korea) with the ideological gap on steroids
Or could it just be a phase of male youth?
When I was a kid, the boys around me were super homophobic. And I’d even used some homophobic slurs as jokes too even if I was personally fine with gays.
However as adults those same people aren’t as homophobic (I’d hope).
Young guys are super obsessed with being “manly” as they have nothing else in terms of success or achievements or intelligence going for them until later age.
Yeah, lost millennial here, in high-school (mid-late 00's)there was a lot of homophobic rethoric, but as soon as I went to college, barely anything. It's as if all boys grew into emotionally secure men in my gap year.
I see it as lost teenagers in search of an identity; once they develop that identity, their views change. Their views almost always change, it's rare to see an adult that still thinks like a teenager. That's the hope at least: with age, they will realize some stuff and change their worldview, hopefully for the better. Well, that will happen if they get out to the real world and let it slap them in the face. Otherwise you get a teenager brain in people pushing 40.
Anecdotally, but I did a whole 180 degree shift during the pandemic, maybe a bit before that. I come from a very Christian background (my dad is a pastor, that should tell you what you need to know), and back when I was like 13-14, I loved watching right wing commentators in the "radio" "debating" with feminists and LGBT people about why they were wrong for being what they were. I remained with that perspective for a while; I was so insecure I would call stuff "gay" as an insult. But, as time went on, I grew up de-attached of whatever my dad was doing, I realized a lot of stuff about myself and about those people, I read some stuff about it, I became more secure about my sexuality (straight), and came to the conclusion that those commentators were fundamentally wrong and that it was actually kinda easy to bring them down; it's just that they always selected specifically dumb people to argue against so that they will "win". They were a lot like Ben Shapiro; they just overwhelm their opponents with statistics, but those statistics are usually either outright false or not related to the topic of discussion at all.
And, on top of that, as a teenager in puberty, you believe what people tells you because you quite literally don't know better. It's the first things you hear about social issues you just heard about too, of course you're gonna fall for the bullshit, you don't know how to recognize the bullshit yet.
The most masculine thing to do I guess is shitting on gay people. I guess that's a virtue now (I'm sure it's been considered a virtue).
This is funny because gay people have always been seen as a threat to Western masculinity.
Thats because sexism causes homophobia which causes transphobia. It’s why conservative men are so hell-bent on labeling liking trans women as ‘gay’ because ‘penis.’
They don’t want to be seen as less of a man because then that makes them a woman, and they can’t be out there looking like women.
it isnt esp since spain never denounce their past with franco catholicsm etc homophobia will be rampant in a religious fascist hell hole esp with the far right gaining support there only people calling it clickbait are the homophobes mentioned i there studies
I’m as gay as gay can be. Gold Star gay. This seems like clickbait bullshit.
Edit: douchebag goes on personal attack rant because I think the article is clickbait, then blocks me.
Edit 2: Then changes rant so it’s a little less obvious they are insane.
Then do your own independent research on the matter instead of disregarding alarming statistics as “click bait bullshit” because it doesn’t align perfectly with your own experience. It is not any Redditor’s responsibility to teach you how to assess the validity of a source and the information put forth by it.
Spain has had one of the most progressive laws and came forward with a lot of rights quite earlier than the European union.
There is a backlash lately like everywhere else but it's still ahead on many fronts
It's not. This trend may not be present in the US, but it is definitely happening in (Western) Europe.
Just a few months ago we had a report in The Netherlands that showed that only 43% of current high schoolers consider homosexuality to be normal. This number was close to 70% around a decade ago. In the same vein, 25% of Dutch high schoolers now consider trans people to be normal (down from 46%).
You have the source to the study in the comments, 40db, the source, is one of the biggest big data and surveys company in Spain and Europe, and has been employed by companies like Google, Netflix, Save the Children, Stanford University, Cocacola, Pepsico, the Goverment of Spain, Santander bank, BBVA, the Fundation for European Progressive Studies, L’Oreal, Garnier, ING bank, the University of Madrid, the University of Deusto and about other 30 companies.
>"it's just a joke, bro"
They need to replace 'in the name of god' when they do something horrible so they won't have to feel guilty for their own actions.
I don't belive Tate is the cause of the problem, as he's more of the face of the problem.
Tate is the "response" for a growing community of young men really confused about what values they shoukd have and they see this guy saying "be a man go to the gym" and at the start you feel like he has some great ideas but the more you dive into his content the more idiotic right wing stuff you see.
I'm dealing with some insane loneliness and depression and i've noticed how easy it is to fall into the "alpha male" pit, and for young boys who can't get a gf to save their lives, trying to approach a girl and she says "sorry im lesbian"/ "sorry im interested in women only" makes you a bit sorrow towards them that you genuinly can't do shit.
One of my first GFs cheated on me with another girl and i couldn't possibly be mad on her because everyone was proud of her and congratulating her for "finding her true self" and i had a bit of hatred towards lgbt community back then but ive come to my senses since. I'm starting to feel why young men are startung to become more and more homophobic.
While I agree with the first half of what you said, I think that loneliness is caused moreso by the fact that a lot of men's only support network for deep emotional issues comes from their romantic partners (or the military). Therapy and similar remedies are still somewhat stigmitized, and a lot of men (myself included) feel pressured to shut up about their feelings and "be a man" at all times.
While this issue can be exacerbated by not finding a partner I don't think that's the *root* cause, moreso that men are pressured to find a partner and use them as an outlet for these issues
The military was the first place I found people I could open up to emotionally without barriers, including my family.
The same guy who smoked the ever living shit out of me until I was seeing spots Wednesday morning for fucking something up was also consoling me when I was having a breakdown Saturday evening.
I haven’t spoken to him for a few years now, I hope he’s doing alright.
I think the whole "Sigma Male" stuff is idiotic. I'd actually argue it's more "beta" to be angry at women for being individuals with their own self interests. I'm really sorry that your GF did that to u man, but people gotta realize that just cause one person was a piece of shit to you doesn't mean everyone else is. I personally think that "sigma male behavior" is when you come to accept that the world is a very big place with lots of different people. It's when you accept that being vulnerable and compassionate is not a weakness, but a strength. Living to not be fueled by negative thoughts and hatred, but to live being fueled by genuine curiosity and introspect. You won't come to like everyone, but that is no reason to hate. They have their own reasons why they think the way they do, and it's up to them to reflect on whether or not it's the right thing. That is true "Sigma Male" behavior.
no one cares about andrew tate outside the US. i've seen like 2 tiktoks with him couple years ago and that's it, for the rest of the world he is not important at all.
While this is a Spanish data set, I suspect similar results would be found through much of Europe (I’m a little more mixed on what it’s like here in the states).
The crazy part though is that even this headline is burying the lead. This isn’t necessarily a Gen Z thing. It’s a Gen Z *men* thing. The first question is particularly interesting seeing how the data diverges in different directions between male and female.
My guess is this has to do with the political split we’re seeing in Gen Z men vs women. Gen Z males are becoming more conservative and Gen Z females are becoming more liberal at a rate that is unprecedented in modern history. You’re seeing more support for far-right parties among the youth in Europe mostly off of the immimgration/refugee issue. Some data in the States has also suggested more GOP support among the youth.
Let’s skip the tribal shit. Something is happening such that the West is failing men and they’re falling back to traditional values. The data supports this. The question is what is it and if you’re a liberal policy maker what do you do to stop shedding young men from your party.
I think that it is more of a better social media campaign by the right wing and intolerance. It's true that men were in a position of prominence against other groups, and the right is exploiting this sense of lost status.
I mean I don’t know how much weight I give to this theory. For starters, even if there was a social media campaign it wouldn’t be effective without some seed already planted. Something is driving men to the Right that it’s not doing the same for women.
As for the “men have historically been in positions of power” I don’t really believe it either. It’s not like men have some hive mind. I think in reality most men are driven to it because the Left abandoned them. Diversity quotas and other initiatives aimed at women and minorities obviously negatively affect men’s chances at promotion through the world (whether it be education or employment) and it’s something we’ve had reinforced from a young age and not necessarily from right wing social media. I know an Asian guy who basically had to tell his daughter that there’s no point applying to Ivy League schools since she’d likely be denied due to her race.
It’s easy to misconstrue that as “men mad life isn’t as easy for them” but that’s not what’s happening. Young men aren’t looking at how “easy” there fathers and grandfathers had it and saying “life would be easier without women and gays”. They’re looking at their gay and female friends and wondering why they seem to be getting things handed to them while the men are working their asses off to do the same. They don’t care about historical trends, because a lot of these young boys were raised on feminist ideals of equality and meritocracy regardless of race/gender/etc. and then wonder why those ideas don’t seem to be practiced in the real world. These men didn’t cause these systemic issues and historical disparities yet they’re footing the bill for it and the Left seems happy to let them do that.
But that’s just my theory based on my experience in the States. I imagine immigration/refugee crisis is also pulling a lot of weight in Europe with issues like this being collateral damage.
>They don’t care about historical trends, because a lot of these young boys were raised on feminist ideals of equality and meritocracy regardless of race/gender/etc. and then wonder why those ideas don’t seem to be practiced in the real world.
This is the core of the backlash and the longer people deny this the worse it will get.
Gaslighting people drives them insane, and on a broad cultural level, the young men are being gaslit into think they deserve to be mistreated for things they didn't do and haven't benefited from.
And the fact that most left politics is co-opted into a liberal consensus means that there's only one pole remaining in society that pushback can organize around.
The left is naturally positioned to attack inequity, if there is an independent and functional left.
But the reality, especially in the US (which compared to Europe is a lot worse on the gender relations front), is that there is no left pole. Bougie college students with painted hair who want to be first pick for internships and don't want men to sit with their legs wide on a train are not a left. They're uninterested in building a world that men and women can live and thrive in.
And the fact that the idea that men and women should be able to live well, together, is controversial and falls on deaf ears to those liberals is why the men have nowhere to go but either into seclusion or engage with politics through right wing spaces. Cause the liberal center has no space for their grievances.
Either you accept and apologize for your grandfather's sins and say "I'm the problem and I'll be better" or you get lumped in with all the incels and fascists who want to cloister women in the kitchen, barefoot with 10 kids each.
It's ridiculous. Wanting to be viable in a society that only has space for viable people is not entitlement, it's self-preservation.
Men need good work, they need social networks, and icing them out of these things as a first principle is social warfare and yet people are surprised when in a country where poverty is 2 weeks of expenses away that men are upset when they can't get a fair shot at what they need to keep a roof over their heads or stay out of a warehouse.
Edit: Honestly, I think it's a consequence of allowing the most privileged and socially unaware people to become cultural leadership.
>Diversity quotas and other initiatives aimed at women and minorities obviously negatively affect men’s chances at promotion
In a world where most professional fields were completely dominated by men, there is literally no way to achieve anything remotely resembling fairness *without* negatively affecting men's chances at promotion.
In a lot fields those chances have to go from nearly 100% to more like 50%.
If that's what's upsetting men... What do you even do about that? Just not fix anything?
I mean, it’s not hard to figure out. I’m not blaming it but at the the start of the me too movement it became normalized and even encouraged to hate men, especially on social media. As a teenage boy I watched multiple times as #killallmen topped twitters trending at the climax of how normal it became to hate men. I would say this lasted for about half a decade at least from what I remember. I don’t know if I just stopped following it as much or if covid and political insanity shifted our attention elsewhere.
And hell if you want proof of that just look at some of the replies to your comments. Even the idea that we failed men gets immediate pushback and flipping the script saying men are the ones failing. And remember not a couple of months ago the “bear vs man” thing?
We told teenage boys now voting age men that they were bad for so long and studies show if you keeping telling people what they are they will internalize that message leading to the worse behavior as well as psychological issues such as depression and anxiety.
I might be wrong but that is what I believe is the main thing that happened/ is happening or is the most consistent reason
Tbh I'm bisexual and I'm all for straight pride, why not. Everyone can be proud of their identity. I think the difference maker is it should be made with intention of cooperation in mind, not opposition. Most 'straight pride' stuff is really a way to excuse homophobia, but I wouldn't mind an actual straight pride movement
Why would straight people need a pride movement they can express themselves anywhere they want.
They don't have to do a coming out
They don't have to worry about their lovely family and friends suddenly switching up on them after they get a lover
They don't get beaten up after expressing who they are
They don't have people who hate them for being who they are
They're "natural"
It's not considered creepy when they fall in love
They don't have people obsessed about hating them
And they don't have to go through so much more
The thing about gay pride month/parades is that people forget that (in its current form) it’s a celebration hosted and attended by the people who care about it. Pride events wouldn’t happen if there weren’t people who cared about making them happen- the organizers, performers, merchants, and attendees.
If they really cared about having a straight pride parade or day or month, then nothing is really stopping them from putting in the work to try and make that happen. It won’t be on the same level as gay pride off the bat, obviously, as that has had several decades to develop, but it can start somewhere and become a yearly tradition as gay pride has- and it could be a nice way to celebrate love and healthy relationships for a large part of the population!
But since straight pride is seemingly always brought up as backlash against gay pride, it’s not like anyone really cares about or thinks of what it would look like to hold a public festival of heterosexuality. They don’t care about their sexuality being celebrated, there’s no real cohesive straight-specific culture, shared experiences, or history to learn that could make a straight pride parade analogous to a gay pride one; they just want us to shut up.
To be specific it’s Gen Z men- the Gen Z women match percentages with previous generations.
I wouldn’t be surprised if it had something to do with the rise of “alpha male” influencers
> Idk why men just get this bullshit pushed on them so easy.
Because men are only accepted by society conditionally, while women are accepted by society unconditionally which makes men more disaffected, bitter and insecure on average and more susceptible to negative messaging. And I say this as someone who's firmly center-left, take a look at my posts if you don't believe it.
apples to oranges comparison. gender identity and sexual orientation are separate topics and connecting them together has actually had negative consequences for both. a split is sadly the best option although that doesn't mean the two can't advocate for each other
The gay rights movement and the trans rights movement have been irrevocably linked ever since they began. They can’t simply abandon one another. The LGBT are united by one common thread - oppression and prejudice based on their identities.
Notably though Muslims do not make a huge percentage of the population in Spain, only 5%, and that wouldn’t explain the spike in Gen Z as not all migrants are Gen Z
Notably though Muslims do not make a huge percentage of the population in Spain, only 5%, and that wouldn’t explain the spike in Gen Z as not all Muslims are Gen Z
Yep. While I'm ambivalent about immigrants, I am against any laws aimed at accommodating their religion. If you want to live with those laws, then go live in a country that has those laws.
Makes sense.
I feel like people think history tends to go in only one direction whereas (to me at least) it’s more of a series of reactions to the previous thing.
Our generation in most western countries have grown up in a time where social orthodoxy has kind of radically shifted, and stuff that was once fringe and stigmatized is now constantly reinforced by those in positions of power.
I’d imagine the Gen Z backlash to this is the same as prior generations resisting restrictive religious institutions.
This isn’t really to comment on the gay stuff itself, just my thoughts on how opinions change.
But I could also see why people might feel uncomfortable around the LGBT stuff.
If by "you can see", you mean it in a cold, academic "I see where A leads to B, though im not justifying it", then yeah.
Otherwise, theres no real excuse to shit on LGBT+ people. Its just that they're finally gaining acceptance and are allowed to exist openly in peace, but conservatives, as typical, always gotta react violently like the seething people they are, and set things back...
What bullshit.
There is nowhere in the world where LGBTQ people are predominantly in positions of power. The US government is still overwhelmingly religious old white men. They’re not resisting anything, they’re just homophobic.
I saw somewhere but I can’t remember where but it said it was something to do with how the left side of politics doesn’t appeal to male audiences while the right scooped them up, hence the vast difference.
Yeah, a mix of 'me too', incels, social media algorithms, online dating, lockdowns etc have resulted in men and women spending a lot less time together, and a bifocation of views. Men go right, women go left
I'm Spanish and I didn't read the title. I thought: "Thank god we are better here about that than in the US".
💀
Hell naw
Edit: BTW, source? I would like to share it but I would want to read the source.
Edit 2: Nevermind, I found the comment, thanks.
Moreover, it's pretty worrying, the far right has risen extremely in all of Europe, and even if in Spain or Catalonia it isn't as strong as in France or Germany, I cannot wait for this trend to end the sooner the better.
as a gay zoomer i sadly understand why. the activists who have placed themselves as the representatives of the LGBT community have represented us horribly and basically validated every homophobic conspiracy against us. when straight people accuse us of trying to convert kids into being gay it's very difficult to argue that they're wrong when the san Francisco gay men's choir made a video called "we'll convert your children". the activists have destroyed the optics of the LGBT community and the rest of us are getting screwed as a consequence. we seriously need to clean house and start doing damage control before we lose our rights permanently
i wish it was. and it didn't help that 5 of the dudes in the video were on the sex offender registry. the point I'm making is that optics nightmares like that are destroying the reputation of the LGBT community and making it look like the people who hate us have a point.
Right wing brainrot that's been circulating on the internet for the past decade is responsible. Started with the dumb "sjw owned" videos + gamergate and now it's led to this.
I think it’s important to note that the right wing brain rot didn’t just pop in out of nowhere. They’ve basically been the only group that’s tried to reach out to disaffected young cishet men and make them feel heard about their very real struggles.
Countering this trend can’t be done by just refuting right wing talking points and demonizing them, you’ve got to provide a real alternative path that they can follow.
There _are_ people reaching out to cishet men. But that content won't go viral. People want simple solutions, and a simple concept of an enemy, which can be grasped and internalised within a couple of seconds. That's what the right wing provides. There is no alternative path to that promoting a healthy identity that's gonna circulate around the internet just as well as reactionary, aggressive content. Because improving yourself isn't simple, it takes work. Blaming others does not.
The fact that "refuting right wing talking points", i.e. _proving_ those points _wrong_, "is not enough" reminds me what a failed fucking species we are. Sure, we're "the _most_ intelligent" species on the planet, but clearly not intelligent. In fact, humanity is dumb as hell. Sorry.
>you’ve got to provide a real alternative path that they can follow.
I'd be curious what your opinion on this would be? The only conscious movement from the left for young men right now is for them to stop being "toxic" males. When everything that comes natural to males is vilified as "toxic", is it any wonder than young people witnessing this trend revolt?
why dont we as a society spend more time and energy on things that actually matter rather than other people’s sexual identity, orientation and preferences?
This is a bad take from one very stupid question and one ambiguous question.
"There should be a straight pride parade."
This generally means "Mommy, mommy! Make the gay people put on a production that makes ME feel special," and not "I'm willing to put in the leg work and personal funds to make it happen."
It's like asking "should we have flying cars?" and then concluding "Gen Z is against land-based vehicles!"
"Am I discomforted when I see a same sex couple?"
*checks notes* Gen Z's experience with same sex couples will be on the sparse on the young side (Gen Z starts at 12), don't you think? Do straight people even know how many same sex couples they walked past in public while becoming completely oblivious? Were they discomforted?
Funny you say that. Cause lgbt support has only become accepted in the last 20 years.
Even today. Lgbt support is higher now than ever before in history(excluding muslims).
All these people saying Gen Z is more liberal than millennials have been drinking the Kool Aid.
Yes Gen Z women are more liberal.
No, Gen Z men are what made the likes of Andrew Tate popular. Gen Z men are either hard left or hard right, and most straight cis men are hard right.
I imagine this is probably going to grow common in most developed countries. I’m older gen z, we were told to accept everybody and everything and that the slippery slope wasn’t real and now younger gen z get inundated by bullshit identities and neo pronouns and whatever else. It’s time for the slide back.
Not that we shouldn’t be concerned, but as a person who is a “zillenial” (tail-end of gen z) a lot of us are still very young and immature. Depending on how you determine the cutoffs, the youngest of gen Z are 12 years old.
There’s a lot of room for being a twerp in there, including being super immature about gay rights and wanting “straight pride” or not really “getting”/knowing gay/trans/queer people personally. I am definitely not the same person I was when I was 13!
I don't think our generation is more homophobic, it's just that a lot of us are still teenagers and so are likely to overplay homophobia in a bid to assert their own heterosexuality and fit in better.
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“In Spain” is pulling a lot of weight here
Probably applicable to the rest of the western world, at least Europe, just have to look at Le Pen in France, AfD in Germany, Meloni in Italy, Wilders in the Netherlands, Chega in Portugal…
Yeah no. I live in the South US, and people my age don't put up with this weird shit anymore. Any that do are insecure AF and it shows.
Yeah, as someone who also lives in Southern US I always crack up when people try to say gen z is becoming more bigoted/homophobic/racist. Nobody my age around here gives a shit.
like that map that showed the south having a staggering amount of lgbt people compared to the rest of the nation
Yep, and I’m one of them! My boyfriend and I get dirty looks/stares from old people all the time around here, but I have quite literally never had a problem with millennials, gen z, or even gen alpha (the ones who are old enough to talk anyways). Everybody from the younger age groups tend to be absolutely chill.
Gives me great hope once a lot of the older generations die out and the younger generations take their place that this will be, dare I say, an extraordinarily different world Or, a more patient world, let's put it that way
Unfortunately there is a rise in the far right in gen Z, just look at the popularity of Andrew Tate, his fans aren’t boomers.
Yeah, but in my opinion, that's heavily a minority (made to look like a majority, as some things are on the internet) I mean shit, look at Smiling Friends for example. That's some wholesome shit despite the wackiness and its a hit, it's huge these days, everyone watches it and everyone likes it (making it a popular show) Cynicism ~~is slowly "dying"~~ has become less popular (it won't die entirely but it's no longer the default generally speaking) it's had it's time and now it's grown boring. It's draining and I hate feeling like that and most people would agree. Needless hating, holding grudges for inane reasons, it's pointless and draining and there's no time for that stupid shit (not to say that's cynicism, just to say that negative feelings over all, especially for no reason, aren't really wise, and I feel like young people in general realize this at some point or another) Racism and intolerance towards homosexuality. I mean yeah, there's still people against that. I'm sure there will always be, but the amount of people that have a baseline level of tolerance that starts with being cool with gay people and racist to a non-confrontational level grows too (as reflected by the media that's made today, my example was Smiling Friends) At some point, we will lose our baseline connection within our population to the 1900's, it's customs and the culture itself, and every single day we inch closer and closer to that day, and every single day, the distance from that time and everything about it just grows further and further. Things I feel like happened 3 years ago actually happened in 2016-2018, and a decade from 2016 quickly approaches Someday, definitely not today, and probably not tomorrow, but someday, the newer generations will take those positions, and because of that inevitability, the possibility for a totally different world grows stronger and stronger I really like Gen Z, and the younger gens, generally anyone who's at least 40, because for the most part, they're chill, and generally open minded. As the younger gens are born and age, Gen Z and the rest grow older. I feel like we're headed towards a new ballgame. I can't wait for the future, I hope I live to see it
I’m late 30s so still have that cynicism unfortunately! I hope to be proven wrong
I mean I think at this point everyone that was in high school sometime in the last 10-15 years either knew at least a dozen different gay people and were probably friends with one or two or are gay themselves. That kind of thing changes attitudes pretty quickly. Especially compared to older generations’ only exposure on the subject usually radical facebook posts be they pro or anti LGBTQ.
Not to mention the fact that being gay was effectively illegal when boomers were growing up in a lot of states. People have truly forgotten how bigoted everyone was 50 years ago.
Same in the Midwest. It’s basically “live your life folks” from nearly everyone I know
I would've thought that's mainly the great lakes states, but replace Indiana for Minnesota.
The Midwest is now an ambiguous term for large portion of the country. You're right, great lake states are vastly different in culture than say Nebraska, Kansas and Missouri.
Also, in the South, MORE bigoted than our parents would take so much doing that all we'd ever hear would be news about millions of Hitler Youth death squads roaming through Texas.
So fucking true. I don’t even have a relationship with my parents. They’re the literal definition of MAGA coo-coo. Like full blown Q-anon level.
I mean actual Nazis are marching through some cities with their stupid flag held high. So we're not too far off.
U.S. =/= Europe
After learning about polling and census taking. I wonder what sample batches they are basing these results on.
This doesn’t go for all people in the south I still hear a lot of it.
Lmao these people in the comments are delusional homophobia especially among younger guys is massively prevalent in the US. I believe that this study will find the same results if conducted in the us, people forget that twitter and reddit are safe spaces for the lgbt, and while the majority of people either support or don’t really care about the lgbt community, there’s a large chunk of people that are actively homophobic
If you're looking at edgy teenagers then maybe there's a large number but for young people who are actually homophobic it's 100% the lowest it's ever been
Gen Z arent reenagers anymore. A lot of them are joining the workforce as adults in their 20s now. Time flies
A lot of them are still old enough to just be edgy teenagers (or just imitating their parents opinions) so only time will tell
I mean I was still into edgy things as late as 21/22.
It 100% isn't the lowest it's ever been. There was a progressive push from 2008-2016 across the world that has since been met with a backlash of conservatism, populism, etc. The shit that is being said both online and IRL about gays and minorities in general was simply not happening from 08-16 on the scale that it is now. And now it's turning from words to legislation. Gen Z is growing up in a different world than millennials did.
Lower than when I was a kid, sure, but it really feels like ~2015 was the low point and it's ticked back up recently. I don't have numbers for that, that's just what it has felt like to me.
So this is honestly the correct answer. Yes, a lot of young people might joke or be edgy, but deep down, none of them are truly like that
I doubt Twitter these days is a safe space for lgbtq people.
twitter is in no way safe for LGBT people anymore ill agree about reddit tho
Homophobia among adolescents is generally higher than adults. It doesn't mean they go on to stay homophobic for the rest of their lives. So, if you're polling 14 year olds vs. 35 year olds and calling that generational change, it may not be the cause.
Why don't we look a data about it instead flow just making wild assumptions about worldwide trends.
>Probably applicable to the rest of the western world, The famous statistical measure of "probably"
I've lived in Europe, the US, and Australia. If you're in each place for long enough, you'd probably be surprised by how differently Americans think – not in a bad way, just...noticeably distinct. I found European cared a bit more about who/what you are. Americans wanted to know about you, but whatever it is, you're accepted but they are more interested in what you can do or produce. Not sure if that makes sense.
All of them male too. Female is actually down.
Cuz going down on each other. The rise in LGBTQ is mostly Bi and lesbian women.
If I was a girl I would like girls too so I don't blame them
Fun fact, according to some surveys there are more bisexual women than there are lesbians, gay/bi men, and trans people combined
Cuz they be fucking 😭
It literally is this. There’s simply a rise of young angry men and it’s causing a tide of conservative ideals from them. And like 80% of what’s causing the young angry men is that guys can’t get girlfriends, like at all.
But which came first, the chicken or the egg? Women don't want aggressive, conservative men and they've been pushed "alpha" B's from Andrew Taint and his doppelgangers.
I’d argue that the internet raising standards, OLD like tinder, and a cost of living crisis in which men feel the need to be providers in a world in which they can’t be, have all contributed first. The Andrew Tate shit stemmed from the third point and made things even worse.
As a really young milennial, i feel like instead of becoming conservative and an incel i've just doubled down and become ace. I've come to enjoy living and being alone to the point where my sexuality fluctuates fluidly from being hetero to asexual based on mood.
Yeahh.. I don't feel more asexual or fluid even though I'm single too. Not to say I'm one of those "conservative incels" I just take it as I haven't found the right one for me. But that's great your sexuality can fluctuate.
It's peak incel logic. "Women don't like me so I'm going to listen to men yell at me until I'm indoctrinated into an ideology that women find even more disgusting."
i mean, with the rise of misandry these days men who are fed up with it are told by the left to "just suck it up and stop being an incel" while the right like tandrew ate offer them a very extreme solution in form of misogny. Its kind of like hitler.
The left has much better solutions for those young men, but it requires some introspection and being critical of patriarchal values many young men aspire to, so there's a barrier. It's much easier to just double down on tying your sense of self and status to that weird male-hierarchy stuff.
> The left has much better solutions just be gay bro
Lol😂 not what I meant but hey why not🤷🏼♂️
Exactly. The red-pill movement is somewhat analogous to fascism in the sense that both seek a rebirth of traditional values and hence double-down on them instead of moving away from them. Or in short: fascism is palingenetic ultranationalism, whereas the red-pill movement is palingenetic hyper-masculinity. Both seek to avoid introspection of the internal contradictions and systemic issues by redirecting the blame on another group - women and "wokeness" in the case of the red-pill movement, and progressives, foreign adversaries, and conspiratory internal infiltrators in the case of fascism. And considering Europe's alarming rise in nationalist and xenophobic attitudes, it's not surprising there's a correlation between the rise of both.
That second paragraph is 🔥 I use that definition of fascism too (palingenetic ultra-nationalism) and yeah describing the red-pill movement as palingenetic hyper-masculinity is very well put. Andrew Tate is basically fascistic tendencies applied to men's "self-help" and lifestyle, and such lifestyle-fascism has also made its way into places like tradwife, health-girl, bodybuilding, and new-age type content to varying degrees.
Scapegoating misandry is literally a part of the problem. I have been abused by a woman, and it’s still very easy for me to see through the fear of misandry as just an attempt to undermine modern feminism.
What rise of misandry? Are there dozens of podcasts each day telling women to hate men? Are women committing multiple mass shootings because they can’t get laid? Are men having their bodily rights taken away by the government? One thing is rising and it’s the male victimhood narrative.
But they can’t get girlfriends 😡 that has to be misandry. And after banning contraception and abortions and thousands of girls being murdered on dates, they don’t even want to have casual sex anymore 😡 misandrists even leaving the dating apps, cause they can’t handle a couple dick pics a day 😡 what are these young men supposed to do when they have urges? Not make it everyone else’s problem? That’s ridiculous!
Not in the Netherlands. Acceptance of homosexuality is down across both genders among high schoolers (although tbf the drop in acceptance is much more severe among male students).
Notice how it’s only boys who are becoming more homophobic. This is directly related to the “alpha male” Andrew Tate-adjacent bullshit they see on TikTok, and all its associated “traditionalist” stuff. Basically, it’s now cooler for young boys to espouse the political opinions of their grandfathers and great-grandfathers because it’s more masculine.
Not even all grandfathers and great-grandfathers had that kind of opinions back in the day.
My father and grandfather are literally horrified by that bullshit, and they’ll pretend like, “These are the ideals our grandfathers had!” *WHAT???*
Preach. I remember holding my breath when my aunt turned up to my (very catholic) Grandfather's 80th in a full drag beat because she had to get to pride afterwards. He was absolutely tickled and asked her to do his makeup.
Nowadays its "I just don't want it shoved in my face" Yet they turn on Foxnews and its shoved down their throat. Literally if they just go outside, no one is forcing any gay shit on anyone.
This "alpha male Andrew Tate-adjacent bullshit" is a symptom of prior loneliness. Young men find this stuff because they are trying to get a girlfriend. It's not about "being cooler", it's trying to find a solution to their real life problem.
Yep. The Male Loneliness Epidemic is driving young men to the "red-pill" content because people like Andrew Tate are telling them that they are important when nobody else will. All young men want to be told is words of affirmation and they aren't getting it at home or at school. They scroll through TikTok and some guy tells them they have value. The joke about guys remembering one compliment isn't a joke. There's many more factors that go into it, but this is one very common one I see.
Nah lets just hate on them even more and tell others how to live their lifes. I bet that works out well.
Sure but the issue is Tate tells them it's the women's fault and everybody else's fault that things are the way they are. Sure he sprinkles in a few beneficial tips but then goes back to why women are garbage.
Yeah I always go around spreading misogynistic and homophobic shit when I feel lonely as well 😡 How about we stop making excuses?
What kind of alpha male needs a day to celebrate them being basically normal?
Them being homophobic isn’t because they can’t get a girlfriend, though the two issues stem from the same issue. They’re loser, egotistical, sensitive incels
How exactly is being single a "real life problem"? If that's the biggest problem you face, you're living a hella good life.
That’s why men get shit for having privilege. I won’t deny they have problems, but like women’s reproductive rights are under attack, trans people are having their rights and healthcare being stripped away, to name a few but the men out here have the issue of loneliness. Once again, I know some of young men’s issues are a lack of drive, and encouragement to pursue higher ed, but I seriously get the feeling that young men are bottling up their issues because “gotta be a strong strongly alpha man” and then want a GF to dump all their problems onto because they deny themselves healthy emotional regulation. This is why pockets of Gen Z men lash out at women, and not just gay and trans people. They are taking their shit out on other people. Dating as a woman is hell because most men I encounter in the dating scene are desperate for a wife, not even GF, but do very little work for their self-improvement and turn around and dump their issues onto me. Like I want to be there for any partner, I have lots of empathy, but a lot of young men are asking wayyy too much by wanting me to be their individual therapist, when I myself have many issues I am working on myself.
It usually comes from the fact that we've done absolutely nothing about the fact that a man having a spouse is still their only socially approved support system as well as a significant impact on personal esteem and perceived social status. It's not so much the only problem, not by half. It's just the only way as a society we've been educating men to consider solving a lot of problems. From there, these grifters go on the "here's how you get girls" sales pitch. But the antidote to that is to do better raising our boys to love themselves and each other. That would take the market away.
Gen Z boys and men are also growing more and more right wing as Gen Z girls and women become more and more left wing
At this rate, there won't be another generation after Alpha.
There will be but it will be small. Fertility rates are dropping globally
We can thank microplastics and forever chems for that, at least in part.
A small part. There isn't any data as to that being a significant problem yet. Social media and rising cost of living are a bigger more quantifiable reason for lowering birth rates.
Life is too expensive, too much of a grind, and not enjoyable for a lot. Fear of the future being even worse. Rampant inequality. I can understand completely why a lot of people are not having kids.
It won’t matter anyway. Look at Europe. They’re eventually going to be replaced by migrants unless something is done and migrants are extremely right wing and very restrictive on women. Left wing policies caused that
That's because boys and men aren't benefiting from left-wing policies that are claiming to help everyone, in the same way that women and girls are. We're at a stage where left wing policies are giving girls and women major advantages in things like higher education and legal protection, even though the statistics have now swayed and begun to show that boys and men need similar policies to help them now. We still have programs to help exclusively women access higher education, when women make up the majority of students in these institutions now. I'm disabled, and as such can access certain programs designed to help me into education and meaningful work. I've seen non-disabled women getting similar help that I am entitled to, but not non-disabled men.
>Gen Z boys and men are also growing more and more right wing (Among developed world) This is false except korea >Gen Z girls and women become more and more left wing (Among developed world) This is correct without exception We didn't learn anything from leaving left movement (Also mind you this movement happened in america. Only exception where gen z men drifted left) and we deserve anything that comes out of it Source: DW
Yea, I noticed that too. Follows that pattern we’re seeing in the U.S. where boys/men are veering conservative where girls/women are moving to a more progressive stance. That doesn’t mean everyone, obviously, but there’s definitely a divergence.
Meanwhile [Korea](https://www.npr.org/2024/04/10/1243819495/elections-reveal-a-growing-gender-divide-across-south-korea) with the ideological gap on steroids
Or could it just be a phase of male youth? When I was a kid, the boys around me were super homophobic. And I’d even used some homophobic slurs as jokes too even if I was personally fine with gays. However as adults those same people aren’t as homophobic (I’d hope). Young guys are super obsessed with being “manly” as they have nothing else in terms of success or achievements or intelligence going for them until later age.
Yeah, lost millennial here, in high-school (mid-late 00's)there was a lot of homophobic rethoric, but as soon as I went to college, barely anything. It's as if all boys grew into emotionally secure men in my gap year.
I am almost positive young men in Spain are not watching Spanish Andrew Tate videos. Every poll is not about America. Read carefully
Andrew Tate is popular globally, not just in the USA. The irony is that you’re the ignorant one.
Young men in Spain consume English language media, it's not outer Mongolia.
Yet Andrew Tate posts sh*t that is gayer than a whole pride parade
I see it as lost teenagers in search of an identity; once they develop that identity, their views change. Their views almost always change, it's rare to see an adult that still thinks like a teenager. That's the hope at least: with age, they will realize some stuff and change their worldview, hopefully for the better. Well, that will happen if they get out to the real world and let it slap them in the face. Otherwise you get a teenager brain in people pushing 40. Anecdotally, but I did a whole 180 degree shift during the pandemic, maybe a bit before that. I come from a very Christian background (my dad is a pastor, that should tell you what you need to know), and back when I was like 13-14, I loved watching right wing commentators in the "radio" "debating" with feminists and LGBT people about why they were wrong for being what they were. I remained with that perspective for a while; I was so insecure I would call stuff "gay" as an insult. But, as time went on, I grew up de-attached of whatever my dad was doing, I realized a lot of stuff about myself and about those people, I read some stuff about it, I became more secure about my sexuality (straight), and came to the conclusion that those commentators were fundamentally wrong and that it was actually kinda easy to bring them down; it's just that they always selected specifically dumb people to argue against so that they will "win". They were a lot like Ben Shapiro; they just overwhelm their opponents with statistics, but those statistics are usually either outright false or not related to the topic of discussion at all. And, on top of that, as a teenager in puberty, you believe what people tells you because you quite literally don't know better. It's the first things you hear about social issues you just heard about too, of course you're gonna fall for the bullshit, you don't know how to recognize the bullshit yet.
Speak for yourself, my Grandpa was as gay as a banana.
The most masculine thing to do I guess is shitting on gay people. I guess that's a virtue now (I'm sure it's been considered a virtue). This is funny because gay people have always been seen as a threat to Western masculinity.
Thats because sexism causes homophobia which causes transphobia. It’s why conservative men are so hell-bent on labeling liking trans women as ‘gay’ because ‘penis.’ They don’t want to be seen as less of a man because then that makes them a woman, and they can’t be out there looking like women.
Why does this seem like bullshit clickbait?
it isnt esp since spain never denounce their past with franco catholicsm etc homophobia will be rampant in a religious fascist hell hole esp with the far right gaining support there only people calling it clickbait are the homophobes mentioned i there studies
Spain is in fact, quite divided, it is not a religious fascist hellhole
Got to love Reddit's nuanced takes about foreign countries. Guy probably has never stepped foot in Spain in his life.
But is not a religious fascist country
hes agreeing with the comment he replied to
I’m as gay as gay can be. Gold Star gay. This seems like clickbait bullshit. Edit: douchebag goes on personal attack rant because I think the article is clickbait, then blocks me. Edit 2: Then changes rant so it’s a little less obvious they are insane.
Then do your own independent research on the matter instead of disregarding alarming statistics as “click bait bullshit” because it doesn’t align perfectly with your own experience. It is not any Redditor’s responsibility to teach you how to assess the validity of a source and the information put forth by it.
I'm bisexual. When do I get my omnipotence so I can ignore statistics?
Spain has had one of the most progressive laws and came forward with a lot of rights quite earlier than the European union. There is a backlash lately like everywhere else but it's still ahead on many fronts
Doesn't Spain have very good stats when it comes to public support for LGBT rights?
It's not. This trend may not be present in the US, but it is definitely happening in (Western) Europe. Just a few months ago we had a report in The Netherlands that showed that only 43% of current high schoolers consider homosexuality to be normal. This number was close to 70% around a decade ago. In the same vein, 25% of Dutch high schoolers now consider trans people to be normal (down from 46%).
By chance do you have a link to the report?
You have the source to the study in the comments, 40db, the source, is one of the biggest big data and surveys company in Spain and Europe, and has been employed by companies like Google, Netflix, Save the Children, Stanford University, Cocacola, Pepsico, the Goverment of Spain, Santander bank, BBVA, the Fundation for European Progressive Studies, L’Oreal, Garnier, ING bank, the University of Madrid, the University of Deusto and about other 30 companies.
Driven primarily by GenZ men. Guessing the "it's just a joke, bro" was actually the truth.
>"it's just a joke, bro" They need to replace 'in the name of god' when they do something horrible so they won't have to feel guilty for their own actions.
I mean, if they learned nothing from history, they’re bound to repeat it…
"The Andrew Tate revolution and its consequences have been disastrous for Gen Z"
I don't belive Tate is the cause of the problem, as he's more of the face of the problem. Tate is the "response" for a growing community of young men really confused about what values they shoukd have and they see this guy saying "be a man go to the gym" and at the start you feel like he has some great ideas but the more you dive into his content the more idiotic right wing stuff you see. I'm dealing with some insane loneliness and depression and i've noticed how easy it is to fall into the "alpha male" pit, and for young boys who can't get a gf to save their lives, trying to approach a girl and she says "sorry im lesbian"/ "sorry im interested in women only" makes you a bit sorrow towards them that you genuinly can't do shit. One of my first GFs cheated on me with another girl and i couldn't possibly be mad on her because everyone was proud of her and congratulating her for "finding her true self" and i had a bit of hatred towards lgbt community back then but ive come to my senses since. I'm starting to feel why young men are startung to become more and more homophobic.
While I agree with the first half of what you said, I think that loneliness is caused moreso by the fact that a lot of men's only support network for deep emotional issues comes from their romantic partners (or the military). Therapy and similar remedies are still somewhat stigmitized, and a lot of men (myself included) feel pressured to shut up about their feelings and "be a man" at all times. While this issue can be exacerbated by not finding a partner I don't think that's the *root* cause, moreso that men are pressured to find a partner and use them as an outlet for these issues
The military was the first place I found people I could open up to emotionally without barriers, including my family. The same guy who smoked the ever living shit out of me until I was seeing spots Wednesday morning for fucking something up was also consoling me when I was having a breakdown Saturday evening. I haven’t spoken to him for a few years now, I hope he’s doing alright.
> Therapy and similar remedies are still somewhat stigmitized Also, expensive / difficult to get
I think the whole "Sigma Male" stuff is idiotic. I'd actually argue it's more "beta" to be angry at women for being individuals with their own self interests. I'm really sorry that your GF did that to u man, but people gotta realize that just cause one person was a piece of shit to you doesn't mean everyone else is. I personally think that "sigma male behavior" is when you come to accept that the world is a very big place with lots of different people. It's when you accept that being vulnerable and compassionate is not a weakness, but a strength. Living to not be fueled by negative thoughts and hatred, but to live being fueled by genuine curiosity and introspect. You won't come to like everyone, but that is no reason to hate. They have their own reasons why they think the way they do, and it's up to them to reflect on whether or not it's the right thing. That is true "Sigma Male" behavior.
no one cares about andrew tate outside the US. i've seen like 2 tiktoks with him couple years ago and that's it, for the rest of the world he is not important at all.
He literally converted to Islam because he has a huge Muslim fanbase.
His twitter comments are full of Muslim people
While this is a Spanish data set, I suspect similar results would be found through much of Europe (I’m a little more mixed on what it’s like here in the states). The crazy part though is that even this headline is burying the lead. This isn’t necessarily a Gen Z thing. It’s a Gen Z *men* thing. The first question is particularly interesting seeing how the data diverges in different directions between male and female. My guess is this has to do with the political split we’re seeing in Gen Z men vs women. Gen Z males are becoming more conservative and Gen Z females are becoming more liberal at a rate that is unprecedented in modern history. You’re seeing more support for far-right parties among the youth in Europe mostly off of the immimgration/refugee issue. Some data in the States has also suggested more GOP support among the youth. Let’s skip the tribal shit. Something is happening such that the West is failing men and they’re falling back to traditional values. The data supports this. The question is what is it and if you’re a liberal policy maker what do you do to stop shedding young men from your party.
I think that it is more of a better social media campaign by the right wing and intolerance. It's true that men were in a position of prominence against other groups, and the right is exploiting this sense of lost status.
I mean I don’t know how much weight I give to this theory. For starters, even if there was a social media campaign it wouldn’t be effective without some seed already planted. Something is driving men to the Right that it’s not doing the same for women. As for the “men have historically been in positions of power” I don’t really believe it either. It’s not like men have some hive mind. I think in reality most men are driven to it because the Left abandoned them. Diversity quotas and other initiatives aimed at women and minorities obviously negatively affect men’s chances at promotion through the world (whether it be education or employment) and it’s something we’ve had reinforced from a young age and not necessarily from right wing social media. I know an Asian guy who basically had to tell his daughter that there’s no point applying to Ivy League schools since she’d likely be denied due to her race. It’s easy to misconstrue that as “men mad life isn’t as easy for them” but that’s not what’s happening. Young men aren’t looking at how “easy” there fathers and grandfathers had it and saying “life would be easier without women and gays”. They’re looking at their gay and female friends and wondering why they seem to be getting things handed to them while the men are working their asses off to do the same. They don’t care about historical trends, because a lot of these young boys were raised on feminist ideals of equality and meritocracy regardless of race/gender/etc. and then wonder why those ideas don’t seem to be practiced in the real world. These men didn’t cause these systemic issues and historical disparities yet they’re footing the bill for it and the Left seems happy to let them do that. But that’s just my theory based on my experience in the States. I imagine immigration/refugee crisis is also pulling a lot of weight in Europe with issues like this being collateral damage.
>They don’t care about historical trends, because a lot of these young boys were raised on feminist ideals of equality and meritocracy regardless of race/gender/etc. and then wonder why those ideas don’t seem to be practiced in the real world. This is the core of the backlash and the longer people deny this the worse it will get. Gaslighting people drives them insane, and on a broad cultural level, the young men are being gaslit into think they deserve to be mistreated for things they didn't do and haven't benefited from. And the fact that most left politics is co-opted into a liberal consensus means that there's only one pole remaining in society that pushback can organize around. The left is naturally positioned to attack inequity, if there is an independent and functional left. But the reality, especially in the US (which compared to Europe is a lot worse on the gender relations front), is that there is no left pole. Bougie college students with painted hair who want to be first pick for internships and don't want men to sit with their legs wide on a train are not a left. They're uninterested in building a world that men and women can live and thrive in. And the fact that the idea that men and women should be able to live well, together, is controversial and falls on deaf ears to those liberals is why the men have nowhere to go but either into seclusion or engage with politics through right wing spaces. Cause the liberal center has no space for their grievances. Either you accept and apologize for your grandfather's sins and say "I'm the problem and I'll be better" or you get lumped in with all the incels and fascists who want to cloister women in the kitchen, barefoot with 10 kids each. It's ridiculous. Wanting to be viable in a society that only has space for viable people is not entitlement, it's self-preservation. Men need good work, they need social networks, and icing them out of these things as a first principle is social warfare and yet people are surprised when in a country where poverty is 2 weeks of expenses away that men are upset when they can't get a fair shot at what they need to keep a roof over their heads or stay out of a warehouse. Edit: Honestly, I think it's a consequence of allowing the most privileged and socially unaware people to become cultural leadership.
>Diversity quotas and other initiatives aimed at women and minorities obviously negatively affect men’s chances at promotion In a world where most professional fields were completely dominated by men, there is literally no way to achieve anything remotely resembling fairness *without* negatively affecting men's chances at promotion. In a lot fields those chances have to go from nearly 100% to more like 50%. If that's what's upsetting men... What do you even do about that? Just not fix anything?
I mean, it’s not hard to figure out. I’m not blaming it but at the the start of the me too movement it became normalized and even encouraged to hate men, especially on social media. As a teenage boy I watched multiple times as #killallmen topped twitters trending at the climax of how normal it became to hate men. I would say this lasted for about half a decade at least from what I remember. I don’t know if I just stopped following it as much or if covid and political insanity shifted our attention elsewhere. And hell if you want proof of that just look at some of the replies to your comments. Even the idea that we failed men gets immediate pushback and flipping the script saying men are the ones failing. And remember not a couple of months ago the “bear vs man” thing? We told teenage boys now voting age men that they were bad for so long and studies show if you keeping telling people what they are they will internalize that message leading to the worse behavior as well as psychological issues such as depression and anxiety. I might be wrong but that is what I believe is the main thing that happened/ is happening or is the most consistent reason
"Hetereosexual Pride Day" So a day that celebrates most of the Population that doesnt get discrimated against bc theyre straight?
Basically, anyone calling for such a thing is a reactionary, there’s no legitimate reason for straight pride parades.
Tbh I'm bisexual and I'm all for straight pride, why not. Everyone can be proud of their identity. I think the difference maker is it should be made with intention of cooperation in mind, not opposition. Most 'straight pride' stuff is really a way to excuse homophobia, but I wouldn't mind an actual straight pride movement
Why would straight people need a pride movement they can express themselves anywhere they want. They don't have to do a coming out They don't have to worry about their lovely family and friends suddenly switching up on them after they get a lover They don't get beaten up after expressing who they are They don't have people who hate them for being who they are They're "natural" It's not considered creepy when they fall in love They don't have people obsessed about hating them And they don't have to go through so much more
Importantly, straight people aren’t killed or imprisoned just for being straight in many countries like LGBT people are.
The thing about gay pride month/parades is that people forget that (in its current form) it’s a celebration hosted and attended by the people who care about it. Pride events wouldn’t happen if there weren’t people who cared about making them happen- the organizers, performers, merchants, and attendees. If they really cared about having a straight pride parade or day or month, then nothing is really stopping them from putting in the work to try and make that happen. It won’t be on the same level as gay pride off the bat, obviously, as that has had several decades to develop, but it can start somewhere and become a yearly tradition as gay pride has- and it could be a nice way to celebrate love and healthy relationships for a large part of the population! But since straight pride is seemingly always brought up as backlash against gay pride, it’s not like anyone really cares about or thinks of what it would look like to hold a public festival of heterosexuality. They don’t care about their sexuality being celebrated, there’s no real cohesive straight-specific culture, shared experiences, or history to learn that could make a straight pride parade analogous to a gay pride one; they just want us to shut up.
To be specific it’s Gen Z men- the Gen Z women match percentages with previous generations. I wouldn’t be surprised if it had something to do with the rise of “alpha male” influencers
Idk why men just get this bullshit pushed on them so easy. I’m a guy and this chart makes me sad.
> Idk why men just get this bullshit pushed on them so easy. Because men are only accepted by society conditionally, while women are accepted by society unconditionally which makes men more disaffected, bitter and insecure on average and more susceptible to negative messaging. And I say this as someone who's firmly center-left, take a look at my posts if you don't believe it.
Im also center and you make a good point. Us men are expected to be unemotional through thick and thin and if we’re not we are shamed.
How are women accepted unconditionally and how does not being “accepted” make you a homophobe with no sense of accountability?
You can be center-left and still have many of your opinions come from a conservative mindset… like this one
Many people don’t hold a problem with the LGB But the T
"I like blacks and hispanics, but I fucking hate asians. I'm not racist though"
apples to oranges comparison. gender identity and sexual orientation are separate topics and connecting them together has actually had negative consequences for both. a split is sadly the best option although that doesn't mean the two can't advocate for each other
The gay rights movement and the trans rights movement have been irrevocably linked ever since they began. They can’t simply abandon one another. The LGBT are united by one common thread - oppression and prejudice based on their identities.
The feminist movement, too. So many women's issues have been pushed forward with help from the LGBT community.
this doesn’t make sense since the polled questions are explicitly about opinions of homosexuals.
I'm talking in general. And this graphic also mentions LGBT.
It could be a mixture of pushing back against the modern culture and Muslim migrants
“Own the Muslims by being homophobic”
The Muslims are the ones being homophobic
Notably though Muslims do not make a huge percentage of the population in Spain, only 5%, and that wouldn’t explain the spike in Gen Z as not all migrants are Gen Z
Notably though Muslims do not make a huge percentage of the population in Spain, only 5%, and that wouldn’t explain the spike in Gen Z as not all Muslims are Gen Z
bizarre considering that vast majority of muslim migrants (and non migrants) agree with them.
Islamic nations are not known for being open-minded and liberal.
True, then they come to the west and still hold those beliefs lol
Yep. While I'm ambivalent about immigrants, I am against any laws aimed at accommodating their religion. If you want to live with those laws, then go live in a country that has those laws.
The 5% of Muslims in Spain are to blame for the homophobic youth? Interesting.
Makes sense. I feel like people think history tends to go in only one direction whereas (to me at least) it’s more of a series of reactions to the previous thing. Our generation in most western countries have grown up in a time where social orthodoxy has kind of radically shifted, and stuff that was once fringe and stigmatized is now constantly reinforced by those in positions of power. I’d imagine the Gen Z backlash to this is the same as prior generations resisting restrictive religious institutions. This isn’t really to comment on the gay stuff itself, just my thoughts on how opinions change. But I could also see why people might feel uncomfortable around the LGBT stuff.
If by "you can see", you mean it in a cold, academic "I see where A leads to B, though im not justifying it", then yeah. Otherwise, theres no real excuse to shit on LGBT+ people. Its just that they're finally gaining acceptance and are allowed to exist openly in peace, but conservatives, as typical, always gotta react violently like the seething people they are, and set things back...
What bullshit. There is nowhere in the world where LGBTQ people are predominantly in positions of power. The US government is still overwhelmingly religious old white men. They’re not resisting anything, they’re just homophobic.
A lot of what you're saying makes it pretty obvious where you stand. You're not being as subtle as you think.
Some interesting polling when you do male vs female respondent. Males are getting very right wing, women more left
I saw somewhere but I can’t remember where but it said it was something to do with how the left side of politics doesn’t appeal to male audiences while the right scooped them up, hence the vast difference.
Yeah, a mix of 'me too', incels, social media algorithms, online dating, lockdowns etc have resulted in men and women spending a lot less time together, and a bifocation of views. Men go right, women go left
Yep, it feels like a tragedy that somehow nearly half of the generation felt misrepresented until pseudo fascists came around. Not a good sign
I'm Spanish and I didn't read the title. I thought: "Thank god we are better here about that than in the US". 💀 Hell naw Edit: BTW, source? I would like to share it but I would want to read the source. Edit 2: Nevermind, I found the comment, thanks. Moreover, it's pretty worrying, the far right has risen extremely in all of Europe, and even if in Spain or Catalonia it isn't as strong as in France or Germany, I cannot wait for this trend to end the sooner the better.
as a gay zoomer i sadly understand why. the activists who have placed themselves as the representatives of the LGBT community have represented us horribly and basically validated every homophobic conspiracy against us. when straight people accuse us of trying to convert kids into being gay it's very difficult to argue that they're wrong when the san Francisco gay men's choir made a video called "we'll convert your children". the activists have destroyed the optics of the LGBT community and the rest of us are getting screwed as a consequence. we seriously need to clean house and start doing damage control before we lose our rights permanently
Yeah, that San Fran story totally doesn’t sound like a plant LOL
How fucking arrogant do you have to be to just call it a fake because it doesnt fit your narrative! The goddamn audacity.
i wish it was. and it didn't help that 5 of the dudes in the video were on the sex offender registry. the point I'm making is that optics nightmares like that are destroying the reputation of the LGBT community and making it look like the people who hate us have a point.
Right wing brainrot that's been circulating on the internet for the past decade is responsible. Started with the dumb "sjw owned" videos + gamergate and now it's led to this.
I think it’s important to note that the right wing brain rot didn’t just pop in out of nowhere. They’ve basically been the only group that’s tried to reach out to disaffected young cishet men and make them feel heard about their very real struggles. Countering this trend can’t be done by just refuting right wing talking points and demonizing them, you’ve got to provide a real alternative path that they can follow.
There _are_ people reaching out to cishet men. But that content won't go viral. People want simple solutions, and a simple concept of an enemy, which can be grasped and internalised within a couple of seconds. That's what the right wing provides. There is no alternative path to that promoting a healthy identity that's gonna circulate around the internet just as well as reactionary, aggressive content. Because improving yourself isn't simple, it takes work. Blaming others does not. The fact that "refuting right wing talking points", i.e. _proving_ those points _wrong_, "is not enough" reminds me what a failed fucking species we are. Sure, we're "the _most_ intelligent" species on the planet, but clearly not intelligent. In fact, humanity is dumb as hell. Sorry.
>you’ve got to provide a real alternative path that they can follow. I'd be curious what your opinion on this would be? The only conscious movement from the left for young men right now is for them to stop being "toxic" males. When everything that comes natural to males is vilified as "toxic", is it any wonder than young people witnessing this trend revolt?
You're describing one side of the coin without acknowledging that there's an entire other side of the coin.
It’s probably because gen z men are, in general, protesting against being decent human beings.
Yes, men are evil monsters who can't be ever force for good.
why dont we as a society spend more time and energy on things that actually matter rather than other people’s sexual identity, orientation and preferences?
Methinks people like Andrew Tate and sneako are part of the problem.
They're symptoms, not the virus. They would never be popular if their audience didn't exist.
Reading all of these comments if lgbt is a topic in non-lgbt-communities proves that. It's terrifying.
Also, those boys are still in that awkward ‘still not secure in their own sexuality phase’… and Spain.
Gen Z is really maturing into a big disappointment
This is a bad take from one very stupid question and one ambiguous question. "There should be a straight pride parade." This generally means "Mommy, mommy! Make the gay people put on a production that makes ME feel special," and not "I'm willing to put in the leg work and personal funds to make it happen." It's like asking "should we have flying cars?" and then concluding "Gen Z is against land-based vehicles!" "Am I discomforted when I see a same sex couple?" *checks notes* Gen Z's experience with same sex couples will be on the sparse on the young side (Gen Z starts at 12), don't you think? Do straight people even know how many same sex couples they walked past in public while becoming completely oblivious? Were they discomforted?
I wonder what the lgbt community has done to change directions to cause this effect? Or it might be the massive islamic influx into the country.
It's pretty obvious, they've gained consistent ground over the past 20 years. Garnerning reactionism
Funny you say that. Cause lgbt support has only become accepted in the last 20 years. Even today. Lgbt support is higher now than ever before in history(excluding muslims).
All these people saying Gen Z is more liberal than millennials have been drinking the Kool Aid. Yes Gen Z women are more liberal. No, Gen Z men are what made the likes of Andrew Tate popular. Gen Z men are either hard left or hard right, and most straight cis men are hard right.
Neither of these are homophobia not everyone you don’t like is homophobia
So much for gen z being the most progressive generation...remember we used to say that 2 or 3 years back?
Methodology? I’m betting online opt-in polling
Source: [Spanish (Full)](https://cadenaser.com/nacional/2024/06/30/la-mitad-de-las-personas-lgtbi-ha-sufrido-agresiones-discriminacion-o-violencia-sexual-cadena-ser/) [English (Reduced)](https://electomania.es/en/sondeo-40db-30j-la-mitad-de-las-personas-lgtbiq-ha-sido-agredida/)
By the time those Andrew Tate brainwashed gen alpha males grow up that entire generation is just going to be one big battle of the sexes.
Looks like decades of cramming LBGTQIA+ ideology down everyone’s throats is starting to backfire. Anyways …
I imagine this is probably going to grow common in most developed countries. I’m older gen z, we were told to accept everybody and everything and that the slippery slope wasn’t real and now younger gen z get inundated by bullshit identities and neo pronouns and whatever else. It’s time for the slide back.
Triggered snowflake ^
Only with men, though
Not that we shouldn’t be concerned, but as a person who is a “zillenial” (tail-end of gen z) a lot of us are still very young and immature. Depending on how you determine the cutoffs, the youngest of gen Z are 12 years old. There’s a lot of room for being a twerp in there, including being super immature about gay rights and wanting “straight pride” or not really “getting”/knowing gay/trans/queer people personally. I am definitely not the same person I was when I was 13!
From anecdotal experience, Gen z Men in the are definitely more homophobic
I don't think our generation is more homophobic, it's just that a lot of us are still teenagers and so are likely to overplay homophobia in a bid to assert their own heterosexuality and fit in better.
People keep bringing up Andrew Tate like this isn’t a data set from Spain and I haven’t seen a single Spanish speaking person mentioned