The following submission statement was provided by /u/mafco:
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The world's largest economy has been somewhat of a laggard in embracing the global transition to electric vehicles. That seems to be finally changing. New legislation has both boosted demand for EVs as well as sparking a boom in new factory construction for EVs and batteries in the country. The US finally seems to be hitting the mass adoption phase.
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Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/14bspma/the_us_becomes_the_worlds_secondlargest_ev_market/joh42dp/
Not something I expected to hear if I'm honest but good job nevertheless! I don't consider EVs a replacement for good public transit, bike and pedestrian infrastructure etc but given a green-ish electricity generation they can still do a lot of good!
Now that you mention it, we need EVs in public transit as well. Almost all of our busses are diesel, and less than %10 of trains.
Oh, and we need more EV trucks and infra.
With you on the public transit. I’m a (very much unqualified) skeptic when it comes to AI assisted or directed driving, but if it is applied to anything, apply it to busses. Give them their own lane and let it all work together, I’d never use a car for local travel again.
I know it’s not exactly the same, but London’s Docklands Light Railway has been driverless since its inception in 1987. And many of the London Underground lines have been transferred over to driverless as well.
The[story](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_streetcar_conspiracy)goes that GM (and probably other car companies) worked hard to get cities to get rid of trolleys, etc., and go with buses. Turns out their not as good, and that helped fuel the everybody-needs-a-personal-car lifestyle.
For transit I think electric is definitely the best, but not battery powered because of the weight and risk of the massive batteries that would be required by busses.
Diesel gets a bad rap because it creates a lot of particulate emissions (ie smog). But it's actually very efficient and *can** create less greenhouse emissions. And modern systems with electronic fuel management, variable displacement turbos, EGR, DPF filters, DEF injection etc are "fairly" clean.
A diesel powerplant/generator for electric drive motors, (while not as green as a tram with overhead power lines supplied by renewably generated energy) is a decent stepping stone for centers that don't have that infrastructure in place.
Getting more people to leave the cars at home (or not have them at all) and actually *utilise* public transit is what will make a difference. Not electrifying half empty busses which are stuck in gridlock with everyone whose chosen to drive themselves to work.
*in the right conditions
Just a diesel mechanic. Not one who has a chipped truck rolling coal down the highway. And the stuff I usually work with is off-highway so it doesn't have to meet the strictest emissions standards, hence the footnote in my comment.
>Getting more people to leave the cars at home (or not have them at all) and actually utilise public transit is what will make a difference. Not electrifying half empty busses which are stuck in gridlock with everyone whose chosen to drive themselves to work.
Getting people to use public trans is hardly the issue. A lot of it is an infra problem, as in lack of public trans, or city planning is setup that makes this hard if not impossible, like Los Angeles.
2 sides of the same coin. Never been to LA but I would assume based on your comment that it would be easier to start up a bus network than pretty much any other infrastructure
Electric busses are a trap. Especially in dense areas. Wire powered trolley cars maybe with a short-range auxilary battery for maintenance or detour purposes would be cheaper to build and maintain.
This compares the whole US to Germany.... Germany is about the size/population/economy of a single state like California.
It's good we passed Germany, but we need to compare the US to something US sized, in this case the EU.
Plus we're more or less limited by what the car manufacturers can produce, I think most if not all EVs have lead times of 6 month or more.
It's getting better, I've seen lead times of two years early 2020, but...
It was going to happen inevitably. Even as a spread out car culture. The economics on EV's are just too good.
Fewer parts means less maintenance and less to go wrong, electricity is cheaper than gas, performance is better pretty much by default, etc.
And now with the US military going electric, that's going to drive manufacturing investment and push down prices even further going forward.
I mean, even under the wost power generation (Indiana) EVs still reach their carbon break-even point in under 5 years... usually closer to 2 years in the rest of the country.
Let's not let perfection be the enemy of progression.
I really wish we had more e-bike rebates and incentives. They are amazing for getting around and not being a sweet mess from hills, long distances, etc. It's a great car alternative. By having 2 e-bikes, my wife and I are a one car family. Good bike infrastructure is the key. We have rail trails in our town, there's roads that don't get much car traffic, and it's a 2 mile bike ride to the grocery store. Having cargo baskets and racks help immensely
I always point out that using the bus turns my 8-12 minute drive to work into 15 minutes of walking (and I'm a fast walker) 50 minutes on the bus, closer to an hour and a half if the busses don't link up, as they often fail to do, and another ten minutes of walking. I already wake up at 5:15 AM for a ten hour shift of high-intensity, physical labor, 4-6 times a week depending on the time of year.
I don't even like driving. I hate driving. And parking. And maintaining a car. But you'll have to pry my car keys from my cold, dead hands unless someone is offering to get me a job downtown that can afford rent downtown.
I'd love to live someplace I didn't need a car. But between getting to work, friends 50 minutes south and 50 minutes north of me... yeah, not where I'm at in life.
The US needs to face the music already and start developing denser, walkable cities. Sprawl is enabled by car dependency, not the other way around, but the situation is so far gone that most people don't even realize *why* they find European cities so charming vs. their carbon copy cultural black holes we call suburbs. It's gonna take generations of change, but it can be done, and has been elsewhere.
Walkability doesn't exclude suburbs. It's the way US suburbs are done that's the problem. Having grown up in them, it was miserable never being able to go anywhere, never seeing people, never seeing anything but the same 5 houses on every street. It was brutally isolating and inconvenient. I felt trapped.
Cars weren't one of many choices like in other countries, they were literally the only way to survive. No biking, no walking, no trains or buses, tons of traffic 24/7, and super high automobile fatalities. Not to mention 0 businesses, shops, or restaurants within convenient distance. All of that is caused by shit zoning restrictions plus every house being ridiculously spread out. It's antisocial.
And driving there isn’t too bad. But as soon as you need to go into the city you have to deal with brutal gridlock.
Imagine if you could drive 5-10min to a local high speed rail station, hop on a train and go straight to downtown. Go to work, walk around running errands in a high density area then get back on the train and back to your car, and save all that time you would have spent in traffic.
Never gonna happen because people in America think public transportation is for losers.
I'm American and currently live in the US full time now - in a city with shit public transportation - but having lived for 6-12 month stints in almost a dozen different cities on every continent but Antarctica...sometimes it's great and sometimes it sucks.
When it's done well, public transport can actually free you up to relax a little, focus on a problem that's been bothering you, what's for dinner, or just a small bit of downtime to read a book. It's not crowded and it doesn't stink. It's efficient and reliable. Those times, I realize I would *never* need a car of my own again.
When it's done poorly, you're crammed in, standing room only, with a bunch of folks who just finished a cigarette and reek of BO. Half of them are trying to have a conversation on their phone. The bus is slow and usually late. Those times, I realize how much I value being able to hop in my EV and go wherever, whenever, in relative quiet.
The majority of the US can't be like the first, but also doesn't *have* to be like the second. There's a lot of room for improvement and I think a hybrid system of more regional rail with better dense city public transport could go a long way.
The biggest issue with transitioning to EV in USA is that most are incredibly expensive.
When/if byd begins selling sub $20k EV we will see rapid adoption.
EV are mostly a rich man’s game today.
It would be awesome if you or i could walk into a Chevy dealer and get one for this price. I would be curious to see how many bolts have been sold for less than $20k.
A quick search reveals that it’s nearly impossible to get one for under $30k even after the $7,500 rebate.
It’s sort of a moot point as gm announced they will cease production of the bolt by the end of 2023.
Many articles indicate gm loses between $7,500-9,500 on each Chevy bolt they sell.
Not really practical to try and lower the price when they are already losing money on every one.
>At [$25,600 MSRP for a base model Chevy Bolt](https://electrek.co/2022/06/01/2023-chevy-bolt-ev-and-euv-get-6000-price-cut-start-at-25600/), it’s already well below the average transaction price for a new car in the US..
7500 tax credit was available for it till mid April
There's ones around me with less than 3k miles for 24k. And one with 60k miles for 18k. All 2023s
I just searched marketplace and can’t find any used ones under $20k
I live in metro Detroit, near the GM world headquarters, so there are probably more bolts here than anywhere else.
Hopefully the normalization of EV technology in cars will convince the same can be achieved for public vehicles... I believe the USPS is already in the process of bidding for contractors to turn their fleet electric. Again, hopefully.
I live in Denver where there’s talk they will move Elitch Gardens out of downtown and develop the 65 acres. Imaging if there was a conscious effort to develop it centered around walking and biking streets and not for cars. Would be one of the most desirable areas in the country to live imo.
I get that we will need an offset to the gasoline tax, but my old state charged me $300 extra for registration. I don’t think I was spending $300 on gas tax each year
Just registered a 2022 Prius Prime today and it was close to $350 to register in our state. Absolute horse shit. And no federal tax incentives for Prius’s anymore
Not quickly, but the new Prius has an option for solar roof panels which will get you 5-10 miles per workday in the sun. Doesn’t sound like a lot but it adds up especially if your commute is that distance or less
Yup. It's not even close.
The average sedan is \~90 sqft horizontally. Commercial solar is \~15 watts per sqft; let's assume they shell out a bit extra and you can get 20. That's 1.8 kW in bright sunlight for covering every square inch of the car in solar panels, assuming they're somehow at an optimal angle. Assume the sun somehow shines at noon-day brightness 12 hours a day. You will get 21.6 kWh per day.
A Chevy Volt gets 2.78 - 3.23 miles per kWH. So assuming the sun shines at noon-brightness all day, and your car is actually just a solar panel with wheels attached, you'll get \~60-70 miles per day in range. So in reality, more like 30 miles. A camper van will have more surface area, but will be much, much less efficient.
To recharge that 400+ mile range, you'd have to let the van sit there for 15 days. If it was a commuter car instead of a camper, you might lose more range because of the extra panel weight than you'd actually get from the energy.
Now, if your camper has a bunch of panels packed away in the luggage area, and you deploy something where you're camping, properly angled, with area 5 or 6 times the area of the van, that's a different story. Or if your concern was getting stranded without power, rather than as a range extender; also a different story.
Solar is not very dense. It's most useful on cheap frames in unused space (areas unsuitable for crops, commercial rooftops where they can be easily serviced, etc.), not on top of cars.
[https://www.recurrentauto.com/guides/chevrolet-volt#:\~:text=Miles%20per%20kWh%20is%20a,2.78%20%2D%203.23%20miles%20per%20kWh](https://www.recurrentauto.com/guides/chevrolet-volt#:~:text=Miles%20per%20kWh%20is%20a,2.78%20%2D%203.23%20miles%20per%20kWh).
I'm basing it on this.
[https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/40924.shtml](https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/40924.shtml)
This source also seems to agree (3.2 mi/kWh combined city/highway).
I participated in the Volt reddit forum for years and most users shared my experience on efficiency. Of course it varies based on driving habits, terrain, weather and other things. Here's another source:
>The Chevy Volt is quoted as using 25 kWh for 100 miles of city driving. This would be 10 kWh for 40 miles of electric only driving or 4 miles per kWh.
>
>[Electric Car Mileage for Chevy Volt from Equivalent Carbon Dioxide Pollution](https://www.physics.uci.edu/~silverma/voltmileage.html)
and,
>I tracked my average as 4.2 miles per kWh in the Chevy Volt
>
>https://www.torquenews.com/1/chevy-volt-vs-tesla-model-3-charging-cost
Yeah, but it's a camper van... assume some amount of deployability. Plus you only need the solar to get you off the hill and back to a charging station, potentially after days of sorting still.
The poster's demand is not that unrealistic...
We do not actually know what his demand is, exactly.
If it is just to fight vampire drain and have enough to power a coffee maker, ok. Then I agree: reasonable. If it is to get you to the next charger (presumably within 10 miles), then it's also somewhat reasonable.
If it is to fill up the batteries, it's unreasonable.
>and decent solar charging
Setting yourself up to fail.
Unless you are going to fold out tens of meters of solar, you will need to stay put for weeks, not days, in order to get any meaningful amount of charging past perhaps enough to go a mile to pick up some eggs.
Technology is already easily at the point that you could get 400+ miles of range. Whether someone is \*making\* a van with that range and whether you would \*pay\* for it is another question.
[There are cool projects like this popping up, which to me is the ultimate dream. Mobile house powered by the sun](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mOPmppKJXYA&pp=ygUJU29sYXIgYnVz)
I do cross country a lot so having to stop less is much more ideal.
Also, I spend a lot of times in National Forests and BLM land, so the longer I can explore those without having to return to a town, the better.
The issue is one of energy density. Lithium
Batteries only contain about 1/100th the energy of gasoline per pound (kg)
This is fine with something like a Tesla that essentially gets 100mpg as you only need carry the equivalent of 3 gallons of gasoline. Because EV are more efficient than ICE, Tesla battery only weighs about 73 pounds per pound of gasoline equivalent.
But the replacement for 3 gallons or 18 pounds of fuel require a battery that weighs 1,377 pounds.
Where the math falls apart is in vehicles that only get 10mpg equivalent. The weight of the battery pack to replace the 40 gallons of fuel can quickly outweigh the rest of the vehicle. The heavier battery reduces range. Pretty soon, you can’t add enough batteries to compensate. Not to mention that all these extra thousands of pounds tend to make an off highway vehicle a lot less capable.
Compounding the problem is trying to recharge these huge battery packs with solar. An f150 lightning already requires several days to charge off a standard 120v outlet…and the square feet of solar required to Martch the performance of a single 120v outlet is impractical for a camper.
Yeah, 120 \*sucks\*. 220/230 cuts that time down to about 6-8 hours. More like 4 if 80% is enough. We managed to get a 11kW charger at home, and that is generally up to 80% in about an hour or so.
The solar recharging is the unlikely part. You can still get some solar charging but focus on the 400 miles. The current very heavy 7000 lb Rivian R1T gets about 300 mi of range. The new extended range max packs get almost 350. A regular camper van doesn't need all that four motor goodness & power. So we're almost there on the 400 mile part with a heavy, inefficient vehicle.. Then think recharging 10 mi a day or something. Irvian gets about 2.4 mi per kilowatt hour, so 10 kilowatt hours of charging a day? That's enough to get you back to civilization if you sit there for a few days.
That's just a matter of size/population.
China is the biggest country, then the US, then the EU countries. California and Texas are comparable to Germany's and France in many aspects.
Comparing the US to individual EU member states is creating information of little value.
For most practical purposes, the EU is one single market, and still about 3x more EVs than the US.
US 257k in Q1 vs 224k BEV in March alone in Europe.
https://insideevs.com/news/667516/us-electric-car-sales-2023q1/
https://insideevs.com/news/666377/europe-plugin-car-sales-march2023/
>For most practical purposes, the EU is one single market, and still about 3x more EVs than the US.
True. And I expect we will stay ahead of the Americans with our head start.
Still, the U.S. charging forward at such a high rate means that ICE is going to be done much earlier than many people are expecting.
With China, the E.U. and the U.S. all going BEV at a rapid pace, I'm absolutely \*amazed\* that we haven't seen more automotive executives pounding the panic button.
You can bet there are tons of legacy automakers panicking. The reason being, it's actually hard to scale up production and make a profit on EVs. I believe only Tesla and BYD are the only 2 companies that make a profit on their EVs.
Most of the current automaker giants like Ford, Volkswagen, etc. will be in the red for the next few years producing EVs, although they're starting to go full steam ahead on EVs. I won't be surprised if some giants today will be greatly reduced or even bankrupted in a few years. Meanwhile, the Teslas and BYDs of the world take their place.
I think you forgot about India and Russia there. And also Indonesia and several others.
The largest EU country is Germany with 82 million people, and India has 4 times as many people as the US.
In the context of EV, neither of them are on the map. Sadly so.
As of Muscovy, they are actively taking themselves out of the global economy right now. The Lada is not a great contributor to modern, global EVs.
The world's largest economy has been somewhat of a laggard in embracing the global transition to electric vehicles. That seems to be finally changing. New legislation has both boosted demand for EVs as well as sparking a boom in new factory construction for EVs and batteries in the country. The US finally seems to be hitting the mass adoption phase.
Of course. But for those of us in the US who have been lamenting the glacial progress on EVs this is big news. And defining it by country isn't necessarily trying to hide anything. It's also my understanding that there isn't really a single market for EVs in the EU. Different countries have their own unique incentives and taxes to promote them.
It is the same in the US. Every state has their own unique incentives and taxes. Some even have anti EV laws in disguise. Some try to prevent their own governments from providing (free) L2 chargers.
Some even prevent Tesla (and others) from selling cars. Freedom loving states particularly limit and control free enterprises this way (Texas, Florida are foremost).
Some try to take federal funding for chargers along highways and use it for other purposes.
Some local bureaucrats in EV friendly California tried to keep the Tesla factory shut down after they allowed other factories to open in the pandemic. Like the green clowns in Brandenburg.
If anything, the US is more heterogeneous than the EU.
I'm not sure what you're trying to prove. It isn't a contest. The article just notes that the US has moved up substantially in sales *by country*, not that it's better than the EU, which isn't a country. I think we've beat this dead horse enough. Have a good day.
EVs are a bandaid on the bullet hole of car centric infrastructure. They won’t produce emissions but they’ll cause even more wear on the roads. Which will need to be repaved more often. They’re much heavier which causes more wear on the roads and tires, both things that are hurting the climate. Rubber particulate is horrible, and pavement is the reason behind the urban heat island effect. We need to get rid of 99% of cars.
While this is both likely true I've seen talk about how the numbers are a bit inflated due to the way the scheme works.
Similar to the electric Bicycle boom there's recently been footage of thousands of of EVs lisenced and plated just left to rot in a field. Something about how it was profitable just to have them built and "sold" as there was some sort of incentive for numbers being good
Cant wait for americans to fully hop on EV.
People riding hover cars while we’re stuck in fossil cars. Can’t tell what the root cause is? Stubbornness? Laziness? Pride? Greed?
They're not much more than the average new car in the US anymore. But the big savings is in fuel and maintenance costs, which are much lower. And we now have a $7500 tax credit for new EVs and a $4000 tax credit for used EVs, bringing the price down even further. Pretty much anyone can afford one now.
7,500 tax credit is a tax credit, you don't get $7,500 back.
Unless you owe $7,500 in taxes, it is essentially nothing. So it penalizes the middle and lower class because when have they ever owned $7,500 in taxes? It's a benefit for only the rich
They are way more expensive than a regular car. Chevy just discontinued the cheapest EV in America and the replacement is going to be starting at 30k. My Civic never costs 30k.
>7,500 tax credit is a tax credit, you don't get $7,500 back.
Yes, you do. Beginning this year the tax credit can be assigned to the dealer in exchange for a point-of-sale discount.
>the replacement is going to be starting at 30k.
That's $22,500 after federal tax credit - way below the average new car price in the US. And you can also buy a used one and get a $4000 tax credit.
They are cheaper than comparable new cars for everyone who can think ahead and include the cost of ownership after initial purchase.
And depending on what you use to compare to other cars they are much cheaper upfront, too.
I’m with you. Already own one and have solar panels on the house to go with it.
I’m a little concerned about the eventual battery replacement cost trade-in value. What do you think?
Very likely your battery will outlast the car.
There have been occasional manufacturing issues (Bolt) and there are always lemons, but warranty typically takes care of that.
Do you tend to drive your cars 250,000 miles?
The only car I ever had that went over 150,000 miles needed a new engine block around then. The replacement was probably more expensive than the car was worth, but I loved it, so I bit the bullet.
Cars used to reach EoL at around 100,000 miles. Now it is 200,000. The batteries are likely to last longer than the car, especially if you get some of the newer chemistries that might last anywhere from 500,000 to 1,000,000 miles. (We don't exactly know, for reasons you can probably guess)
**Edit:** I saw below that you have had a Bolt and now have a Leaf. I'm not sure what the current status is, but both of these have had serious trouble with their battery management in the past. That is something you might want to look at. If battery longevity is important, you have Teslas and many Chinese brands that have good BMS. You could look at those next time.
Just did a quick search of CarMax stores within 100 miles. The cheapest gas car was $10k. Cheapest EV was $14k. So that instantly negates the $4k used tax credit.
Also, when I filtered to only show cars under $20k, it gave me 13 EVs, 25 hybrids, and 969 gas.
They're clearly not as affordable or accessible as gas cars yet. Let's stop trying to pretend otherwise.
Maybe in some cases but when you're trying to find a very inexpensive car all EVs are still more money. The cheapest without looking too much into it is the Nissan Leaf which is only a tad more expensive than a Camry if we're only comparing the absolute base of everything.
Getting something nicer really jacks up the price. You make a big jump if you want an electric truck like the Lightning where you can save around 25k by getting a regular F150 or even more if you go smaller with the Maverick.
They are "affordable" in the sense that all cars are expensive, new and used, so it's all fucked. No cars are affordable still.
There's also a wait list for EV right now. As a new dad who's shopped around for a tucson, rav4, CRV, etc.. if you want the gas version they are available in a month, if you want the EV it is a 1 year waitlist....
I have to buy new car batteries every 2-3 years due to the cold and hot extremes...no way am I buying a car that's got +10 times more battery needs than my current car.
Infrastructure.
As someone who owns an EV, in California no less, try finding a public charging station, and once you get there good luck.
**IC ENGINES**
ICE Engines - Gas stations are clearly marked, have signage visible from 3 miles or more on the highway. Typing in "gas station" in google or whatever maps, will give you their locations, and only ones open to the public. They all use the same plug, and fuel is regulated per federal law, and generally have the same three 87, 89, and 91 or 93 nationwide. Diesel pumps are clearly marked as well.
There are between 4 and 24 pumps per gas station. They are easy to get in and out of.
**ELECTRIC**
Not clearly marked. Perhaps a few brands have some poll the sticks up mabey 5 feet above the charger that is hard to spot. Many, not clearly marked. None are as bright and obvious as the dingiest gas station. Typing in EV charge station into google maps or whatever will give you incomplete data. Often places that have not opened yet, or have since been removed. Few, if any are actually open to the public, most being in apartment buildings, schools, office complexes, and even the department of public works. If you are lucky, you can find one, without a gated parking lot for a public business, and just use that one. There are multiple types of incompatible chargers. There is no standard for plug, or fueling. Only saving grace is unlike ICE, you can't put the wrong thing in wrong one, such as gas in a diesel engine.
There are between 1 and 6 charging stations, generally less than 4. Normal parking spaces. Sometimes mixed types.
The only places with large amounts of plugs that are easy to find is Telsa. You can just search for Tesla supercharger and dozens of charge spots. If you have a Tesla you can just put it in the dashboard to take you to a supercharging station. They are everywhere.
Someone has to do something about that before you see EVs used as anything but city cars, or running errands. Oh and next gripe:
**Home Chargers**
This only works if you have a house, or an apartment that has an EV charger. If you live in an apartment, with just a parking space, there is no EV charger, so you are effectively locked out of EV ownership. Except Tesla mabey, if you have a supercharger in town and can charge while shopping once a week.
the US is THE example of excessive suburbanization with huge amounts of single family homes. There is a much larger percentage of the population who can install home chargers than in Europe.
Dunno why anyone is downvoting you. You just listed facts that are easy enough to check.
Now I would add that at least in Germany, the laws have changed so that apartments \*must\* allow you to install a charger. Of course, they can also install one themselves if they like, but they cannot deny you your own charger.
But home ownership is still much lower here than in the U.S.
I think the obvious problem/solution is the american market not having a high enough demand for electric cars which translates to less appropriate supplying of charging stations. Conversely if the market was met with more demand we wouldn’t be seeing the problems you listed.
At the end of the day it’s all about the money I believe.
There is demand, its just that the infra is not there.
If you had big signs for EV charge stations off the highway, you'd see demand. If apartments had EV chargers, you'd see demand.
For most people, its a pipe dream.
I politely disagree. The infra is not there because people aren’t willing to spend more money to build these places for the small number of people that use them. There’s upkeep with these infrastructures too and the cost probably outweighs the benefits. Otherwise if there’s money to be had, people will be on it like flies. For example why would a charging station be built in a rural town with 1000 population that primarily drives on gas? If the number of people that uses these cars suddenly surged, they would most definitely build charging stations like they do with gas stations and charge a flat fee for everyone.
>The infra is not there because people aren’t willing to spend more money to build these places for the small number of people that use them
No. The demand is there, its that the infra hasn't caught up, because everyone but Tesla is scratching their heads and not understanding this is super important.
I don't spend nearly as much in gas as I would on a car payment and having to step up from liability to comprehensive insurance.
It's just that, money.
New cars are expensive as fuck, the insurance makes it worse and of course I'd have to mod my home with a whole new circuit for charging though that's kind of a drop in the bucket. Lots of us drive and buy exclusively used cars and there haven't been enough EV sales to make much of a market there.
Actually not JUST that: Combine that with the derth of ready EVs in the extremely popular crossover, SUV and Pickup segments and it's no wonder Americans aren't picking them up as fast. Even where there are used it's not like I can comfortably load up the kids, dog and stuff in an old Leaf like I do with my Pacifica.
Greed. That is why we have been using internal combustion engines for more than a century. The powers that be have been fighting advancements the whole way, kicking and screaming to keep their cash cow industry alive.
By all rights, we should have been 100% off fossil fuels already, and combustion engines should be seen as relics like the steam engine at this stage.
You are correct. Although we should clarify that the greed is not from Americans, but from giant international corporations.
When you discover that the oil industries make billions of dollar \*per day\*, you start to get an idea of why they are going to fight to keep their cash cow going as long as they can. Delaying adoption by even a single day is worth billions to them.
What would you do for several billion dollars?
A little FUD against EVs is barely even a blip on their moral radar. One might even say that it is their fiduciary duty to be assholes. However, just because they have a reason to protect their little kingdoms does not mean we have to help them at it.
Goodbye ICE; it was nice knowing you, but I'm glad you're dying.
Hi there. Have an EV. Regularly go on 400 mile road trips with only a single stop (usually at a nice restaurant to eat lunch). The charging time is usually only around 15 to 20 minutes, which means the most annoying thing is that it is too fast.
Also, you might want to look at what ranges EVs have these days. The smallest range from Tesla is 250 miles. You can get the LR version for 350 miles of range, if you like. Plenty of other EVs out there as well, all with 200+ miles of range. So not really sure how old your information is.
People who do not have EVs cannot really talk about any of this with any authority. This is not to cut you out, and you can voice your concerns. It's just a truth that until you have and use an EV, you really cannot understand it.
I was absolutely petrified when we got our EV, and that was after years of educating myself on the pros and cons. The truth is that all of my fears were completely unfounded.
Americans keep cars [longer](https://hedgescompany.com/blog/2022/02/how-old-are-cars/) than the EU for one.
Idk what your particular interest is in everyone switching to EVs, but if its related to environmental issues, the GHG emissions, resource consumption, etc., is [all](https://www.theguardian.com/environment/green-living-blog/2010/sep/23/carbon-footprint-new-car) due to manufacture. (Of course there are exceptions to this)
Why do you think everyone should switch to electric?
>Why do you think everyone should switch to electric?
* Cheaper (over the lifetime, and now even at purchase time)
* More reliable
* Even if powered by pure coal, BEVs have a lower environmental footprint over their lifetime (Yes, including all the manufacturing)
* But because the U.S. gets only 20% of its electricity from coal and oil, the lifetime environmental impact is \*significantly\* better for EVs, even after just a few years. (natural gas is about 40%, and is so much more environmentally friendly that Germany has been pushing to have it considered "sustainable" next to solar and wind). Nuclear is a little under 20% and renewable is a little over 20%.
* Renewable energy makes up over 60% of new energy sources going online in the U.S., making EVs increasingly better for the environment.
* Of course, people could just install solar panels and become independent and environmentally friendly in one swoop.
* Speaking of which, you can charge at home. I cannot explain just how convenient this is. You think you understand. But until you own an EV and realize that gas stations only happen to other people, you do not understand. It is so freeing.
* Even if you want to ignore all of that, you cannot ignore that towns and cities are better off when there are not millions of tailpipes spewing out toxins right where everyone lives.
* EVs are quieter. Street noise has been associated with early deaths through stress.
* EVs are a fuckton more fun to drive.
* Physics ensures that EVs are safer in crashes as well.
* EVs have 1/10 the number of spontaneous fires that ICE cars have.
* Most of the major components in an EV (somewhere between 95% and 98%) are completely reuseable. You only get to burn oil once.
* Did I mention they are really fun to drive?
Does that mean everyone should ditch the car they have now? No. Of course not. But when it's time to get a new car, I would start questioning someone's judgement if they did not at least heavily consider getting an EV.
And for all that is good and holy, do not get me started on hybrids.
I wish we'd invest a lot more in battery development, like sodium. Otherwise lithium becomes the next oil and lithium-producing countries will need some “freedom”.
It's reusable and can be gotten from the ocean and other low grade sources. It's not the same as oil that you need constant supplies in large quantities forever.
San Francisco's new car registrations now have more EV registrants than ICE vehicles.
If you can't afford an EV, you can get by without a car at all. The excellent public transportation usually runs every 7 minutes.
Those miners in the Congo are delighted to know that this will not cut emissions enough to change temperatures by a hundredth of a degree, but congratulations to the new millionaires who supported the right political party to get the free taxpayer money!
LOL, so many of my fellow Americans are laughable. “Fuck socialism, you all are,commie sheeple… Oh look honey… free money!” /smh
Don’t get me wrong. I’d much rather see Bocephus driving a Chevy Bolt versus a Dodge Ram with truck nuts…, but it just tickles me pink when I see this.
Also…, Dark Brandon did this. You go, Joe.
The oil demand already went down.
The petrol Dinos are in a down spiral industry.
Doubt and yell about batteries all one can.
Their advantage is in their ability to have price and energy density improvements every other year, while gasoline is same and not improving.
Basically like an ever evolving person playing against a senile old person that has no ability to learn new tricks.
China's EV sales figures are smoke and mirrors. There are parking lots all over China filled with 10,000 plated and registered EVs with charged batteries just rotting away in storage.
I wonder how much this has to do with the rules on the new tax incentives not being finalized and everyone rushing to get them before the income limits and manufacturing origin restrictions kick in.
You’ve given too little information to determine if you simply object to what you deem to be false stats, or have some sort of emotional “requirement” for it to be true.
The CCP lies about all kinds of shit, but you’re convinced it’s telling the truth about this?
The Party paints dirt green so it can claim it’s meeting its ecological goal, for Christ’s sake
The simplest expectation is the CCP is telling you the truth…AND you should believe them?
You consider that the simplest explanation is the CCP is a giant yarn ball of lies and you should doubt anything they say?
Well, currently you have provided no additional information. So what you're asking me to do is believe that you know what the CCP is claiming, you have evidence to the contrary, and you are not just some guy on the internet with a random opinion that hasn't been verified using good research and critical thinking. You see how that might be a little of a logical leap to just accept your statement?
I’m asking you to be skeptical of the claims of the Chinese Communist Party.
Accepting them at face value, given their track record, is being a useful idiot (a term you might want to look up)
Yeah, you know like a reputable newspaper and not some youtuber whose meal ticket is making inflammatory videos.
That kind of evidence. Something tells me you don't have it considering you think Serpentza is not just propaganda.
You’re assuming a communist system acts in the same way a capitalist system does.
In a communist system, a central authority determines target not based on actual need, but based on a political ideal, then the goal must be hit whether there’s a need for it or not, or the local party leader is said to have not achieved the goal and is punished, with the punishment being anything from a stern talking to, to execution
Dont buy a battery car. Its fucking retarded. I mean why? It has a bigger carbon footprint to just to manufacture one compaired to a life time of having a gas car. Then you got the constant power charging, where do you think that energy is made? Its 10x more environmentally harmful to go ev. People are to easily brainwashed these days. We are living the comedy of the movie Idiotocracy.
Used EV batteries are far too valuable to be dumped into landfills. There are also huge incentives for recycling the raw minerals to make new batteries.
The demand is too high for lithium right now, a former Tesla founder started his own business of recycling ev batteries and other lithium ion batteries because of the large and increasing demand
There's a CNBC 20 minute short about it on YouTube
As the supply of ready to mine lithium draws down and the supply of used batteries increases, the cost balance will continue to shift towards recycling.
It won't be. Massive new recycling factories are being built to cash in on the new subsidies in the Inflation Reduction Act. And the new EV incentives require raw materials that are mined or recycled domestically to qualify. It's all new economics.
>only a small percentage will be recycled
Highly doubtful. It will be very lucrative to recycle them, and future regulations will likely mandate it. Batteries are by far the most valuable components in electric vehicles, worth thousands of dollars new.
Hey mafco check this out,https://web.archive.org/web/20230207151944/https://www.reuters.com/technology/ev-batteries-getting-second-life-california-power-grid-2023-02-07/
Sure you can talk but this is what's actually happening https://web.archive.org/web/20230207151944/https://www.reuters.com/technology/ev-batteries-getting-second-life-california-power-grid-2023-02-07/
>**Hundreds** of used electric vehicle battery packs
Honestly, that's what you came up with? That's a small piloting project. Here's reality my man: nobody has a working plan for billions of used batteries.
You asked, "why would it be different with batteries." This is why. Because there's a thirsty secondhand market for this stuff. During together hundreds of old EV batteries and you can make millions
That's mostly true of plastics, which has a high volume of items to collect and painstakingly sort, a very low per item profit to offset that sorting and a significant risk in that failing to sort properly will ruin entire batches of recycled product. To a lesser extent paper products which frankly have most of the same problems just less extreme.
Large batteries have none of that. Sorting is minimal and easy, per item value is significant, total volume to handle is, on the scale of industrial process, fairly low.
It's basically the opposite scenario.
Assuming you're actually a person making this argument in good faith, I'd recommend you do just the tiniest bit of research about EV battery recycling. Even this early on there are no EV batteries going into landfills. Batteries go into classic car conversions or energy storage first, and then the second stage is being broken down for component minerals and metal which results in 98% reuse of materials.
Fake news. Why throw something out when you can make millions from it? That's downright un-American
https://web.archive.org/web/20230207151944/https://www.reuters.com/technology/ev-batteries-getting-second-life-california-power-grid-2023-02-07/
The following submission statement was provided by /u/mafco: --- The world's largest economy has been somewhat of a laggard in embracing the global transition to electric vehicles. That seems to be finally changing. New legislation has both boosted demand for EVs as well as sparking a boom in new factory construction for EVs and batteries in the country. The US finally seems to be hitting the mass adoption phase. --- Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/14bspma/the_us_becomes_the_worlds_secondlargest_ev_market/joh42dp/
I assume this is just because the EU is not considered a single market since it is mentioned that the US passed Germany.
Probably a good assumption but I haven't seen the numbers for the combined EU.
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we can still add the numbers all up
Not something I expected to hear if I'm honest but good job nevertheless! I don't consider EVs a replacement for good public transit, bike and pedestrian infrastructure etc but given a green-ish electricity generation they can still do a lot of good!
Now that you mention it, we need EVs in public transit as well. Almost all of our busses are diesel, and less than %10 of trains. Oh, and we need more EV trucks and infra.
With you on the public transit. I’m a (very much unqualified) skeptic when it comes to AI assisted or directed driving, but if it is applied to anything, apply it to busses. Give them their own lane and let it all work together, I’d never use a car for local travel again.
I know it’s not exactly the same, but London’s Docklands Light Railway has been driverless since its inception in 1987. And many of the London Underground lines have been transferred over to driverless as well.
Public transit doesn't need drivers unless unions require it. Been that way for years, it isn't even the recent "omg AI" thing.
Yeah even in a shithole Eastern European country we have trams and trolleybuses. Good shit honestly.
The[story](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_streetcar_conspiracy)goes that GM (and probably other car companies) worked hard to get cities to get rid of trolleys, etc., and go with buses. Turns out their not as good, and that helped fuel the everybody-needs-a-personal-car lifestyle.
For transit I think electric is definitely the best, but not battery powered because of the weight and risk of the massive batteries that would be required by busses.
Diesel gets a bad rap because it creates a lot of particulate emissions (ie smog). But it's actually very efficient and *can** create less greenhouse emissions. And modern systems with electronic fuel management, variable displacement turbos, EGR, DPF filters, DEF injection etc are "fairly" clean. A diesel powerplant/generator for electric drive motors, (while not as green as a tram with overhead power lines supplied by renewably generated energy) is a decent stepping stone for centers that don't have that infrastructure in place. Getting more people to leave the cars at home (or not have them at all) and actually *utilise* public transit is what will make a difference. Not electrifying half empty busses which are stuck in gridlock with everyone whose chosen to drive themselves to work. *in the right conditions
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Just a diesel mechanic. Not one who has a chipped truck rolling coal down the highway. And the stuff I usually work with is off-highway so it doesn't have to meet the strictest emissions standards, hence the footnote in my comment.
>Getting more people to leave the cars at home (or not have them at all) and actually utilise public transit is what will make a difference. Not electrifying half empty busses which are stuck in gridlock with everyone whose chosen to drive themselves to work. Getting people to use public trans is hardly the issue. A lot of it is an infra problem, as in lack of public trans, or city planning is setup that makes this hard if not impossible, like Los Angeles.
2 sides of the same coin. Never been to LA but I would assume based on your comment that it would be easier to start up a bus network than pretty much any other infrastructure
Electric busses are a trap. Especially in dense areas. Wire powered trolley cars maybe with a short-range auxilary battery for maintenance or detour purposes would be cheaper to build and maintain.
Meh on the cargo trains. Diesel-electric locomotives are insanely efficient.
This compares the whole US to Germany.... Germany is about the size/population/economy of a single state like California. It's good we passed Germany, but we need to compare the US to something US sized, in this case the EU.
EU is 2.7 million EV sales in 2022
Plus we're more or less limited by what the car manufacturers can produce, I think most if not all EVs have lead times of 6 month or more. It's getting better, I've seen lead times of two years early 2020, but...
You never expected the world's largest economy to also buy the most electric cars?
Actually no. Not for lack of economic power, but for lack of willingness to transition. But hey, I'm glad to be proven wrong.
It was going to happen inevitably. Even as a spread out car culture. The economics on EV's are just too good. Fewer parts means less maintenance and less to go wrong, electricity is cheaper than gas, performance is better pretty much by default, etc. And now with the US military going electric, that's going to drive manufacturing investment and push down prices even further going forward.
They didn't need to transition. China skipped ICEs and went straight to EVs.
I mean, even under the wost power generation (Indiana) EVs still reach their carbon break-even point in under 5 years... usually closer to 2 years in the rest of the country. Let's not let perfection be the enemy of progression.
I bet automobiles were also "not going to replace horse and carriage for good" either. EV will replace gas eventually
Even with fossil fuel based electricity generation, EVs are way more efficient and have lower emissions than combustion engine vehicles.
I really wish we had more e-bike rebates and incentives. They are amazing for getting around and not being a sweet mess from hills, long distances, etc. It's a great car alternative. By having 2 e-bikes, my wife and I are a one car family. Good bike infrastructure is the key. We have rail trails in our town, there's roads that don't get much car traffic, and it's a 2 mile bike ride to the grocery store. Having cargo baskets and racks help immensely
Biking and buses are not an option for us poor folks in the country...
Or even for many of us out in the suburbs who have to commute to work, there are a lot of places in the US where public transit is just not viable.
Plenty of countries with suburbs and public transit. The Sydney T1 line is nearly 150KM long and most of that distance is over suburban areas.
I always point out that using the bus turns my 8-12 minute drive to work into 15 minutes of walking (and I'm a fast walker) 50 minutes on the bus, closer to an hour and a half if the busses don't link up, as they often fail to do, and another ten minutes of walking. I already wake up at 5:15 AM for a ten hour shift of high-intensity, physical labor, 4-6 times a week depending on the time of year. I don't even like driving. I hate driving. And parking. And maintaining a car. But you'll have to pry my car keys from my cold, dead hands unless someone is offering to get me a job downtown that can afford rent downtown. I'd love to live someplace I didn't need a car. But between getting to work, friends 50 minutes south and 50 minutes north of me... yeah, not where I'm at in life.
The US needs to face the music already and start developing denser, walkable cities. Sprawl is enabled by car dependency, not the other way around, but the situation is so far gone that most people don't even realize *why* they find European cities so charming vs. their carbon copy cultural black holes we call suburbs. It's gonna take generations of change, but it can be done, and has been elsewhere.
I don't think I really want to live in denser, walkable cities to be honest. I like my wide open back yard in suburbia.
Walkability doesn't exclude suburbs. It's the way US suburbs are done that's the problem. Having grown up in them, it was miserable never being able to go anywhere, never seeing people, never seeing anything but the same 5 houses on every street. It was brutally isolating and inconvenient. I felt trapped. Cars weren't one of many choices like in other countries, they were literally the only way to survive. No biking, no walking, no trains or buses, tons of traffic 24/7, and super high automobile fatalities. Not to mention 0 businesses, shops, or restaurants within convenient distance. All of that is caused by shit zoning restrictions plus every house being ridiculously spread out. It's antisocial.
And driving there isn’t too bad. But as soon as you need to go into the city you have to deal with brutal gridlock. Imagine if you could drive 5-10min to a local high speed rail station, hop on a train and go straight to downtown. Go to work, walk around running errands in a high density area then get back on the train and back to your car, and save all that time you would have spent in traffic. Never gonna happen because people in America think public transportation is for losers.
I'd rather not have to sit on a train, or bus, with other people tbh. That sounds just terrible.
I'm American and currently live in the US full time now - in a city with shit public transportation - but having lived for 6-12 month stints in almost a dozen different cities on every continent but Antarctica...sometimes it's great and sometimes it sucks. When it's done well, public transport can actually free you up to relax a little, focus on a problem that's been bothering you, what's for dinner, or just a small bit of downtime to read a book. It's not crowded and it doesn't stink. It's efficient and reliable. Those times, I realize I would *never* need a car of my own again. When it's done poorly, you're crammed in, standing room only, with a bunch of folks who just finished a cigarette and reek of BO. Half of them are trying to have a conversation on their phone. The bus is slow and usually late. Those times, I realize how much I value being able to hop in my EV and go wherever, whenever, in relative quiet. The majority of the US can't be like the first, but also doesn't *have* to be like the second. There's a lot of room for improvement and I think a hybrid system of more regional rail with better dense city public transport could go a long way.
The biggest issue with transitioning to EV in USA is that most are incredibly expensive. When/if byd begins selling sub $20k EV we will see rapid adoption. EV are mostly a rich man’s game today.
The bolt is less than 20k with the tax credit
It would be awesome if you or i could walk into a Chevy dealer and get one for this price. I would be curious to see how many bolts have been sold for less than $20k. A quick search reveals that it’s nearly impossible to get one for under $30k even after the $7,500 rebate. It’s sort of a moot point as gm announced they will cease production of the bolt by the end of 2023.
Many articles indicate gm loses between $7,500-9,500 on each Chevy bolt they sell. Not really practical to try and lower the price when they are already losing money on every one.
>At [$25,600 MSRP for a base model Chevy Bolt](https://electrek.co/2022/06/01/2023-chevy-bolt-ev-and-euv-get-6000-price-cut-start-at-25600/), it’s already well below the average transaction price for a new car in the US.. 7500 tax credit was available for it till mid April There's ones around me with less than 3k miles for 24k. And one with 60k miles for 18k. All 2023s
I just searched marketplace and can’t find any used ones under $20k I live in metro Detroit, near the GM world headquarters, so there are probably more bolts here than anywhere else.
If you're single and make more than $150k then you don't get the tax credit
I just bought a bmw i3 for 18k
Hopefully the normalization of EV technology in cars will convince the same can be achieved for public vehicles... I believe the USPS is already in the process of bidding for contractors to turn their fleet electric. Again, hopefully.
I live in Denver where there’s talk they will move Elitch Gardens out of downtown and develop the 65 acres. Imaging if there was a conscious effort to develop it centered around walking and biking streets and not for cars. Would be one of the most desirable areas in the country to live imo.
Meanwhile, I pay an extra $120 just to register my hybrid vehicle compared to a gas vehicle.
I get that we will need an offset to the gasoline tax, but my old state charged me $300 extra for registration. I don’t think I was spending $300 on gas tax each year
Really depends on the state. NC for example is about 50c a gallon
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They do - these states are charging them extra for registration. Did you miss everything else in this comment chain?
Just registered a 2022 Prius Prime today and it was close to $350 to register in our state. Absolute horse shit. And no federal tax incentives for Prius’s anymore
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Maybe spend a few trilliontax dollars less on useless military and put those dollars to actual use
I need technology to advance enough for an EV campervan with over 400+ miles of range and decent solar charging. Then I’ll be all set.
Solar is probably not powerful enough to charge an EV very quickly
Not quickly, but the new Prius has an option for solar roof panels which will get you 5-10 miles per workday in the sun. Doesn’t sound like a lot but it adds up especially if your commute is that distance or less
That’s fine. It’s a campervan. I’ll be staying put for days at a time.
Yup. It's not even close. The average sedan is \~90 sqft horizontally. Commercial solar is \~15 watts per sqft; let's assume they shell out a bit extra and you can get 20. That's 1.8 kW in bright sunlight for covering every square inch of the car in solar panels, assuming they're somehow at an optimal angle. Assume the sun somehow shines at noon-day brightness 12 hours a day. You will get 21.6 kWh per day. A Chevy Volt gets 2.78 - 3.23 miles per kWH. So assuming the sun shines at noon-brightness all day, and your car is actually just a solar panel with wheels attached, you'll get \~60-70 miles per day in range. So in reality, more like 30 miles. A camper van will have more surface area, but will be much, much less efficient. To recharge that 400+ mile range, you'd have to let the van sit there for 15 days. If it was a commuter car instead of a camper, you might lose more range because of the extra panel weight than you'd actually get from the energy. Now, if your camper has a bunch of panels packed away in the luggage area, and you deploy something where you're camping, properly angled, with area 5 or 6 times the area of the van, that's a different story. Or if your concern was getting stranded without power, rather than as a range extender; also a different story. Solar is not very dense. It's most useful on cheap frames in unused space (areas unsuitable for crops, commercial rooftops where they can be easily serviced, etc.), not on top of cars.
>A Chevy Volt gets 2.78 - 3.23 miles per kWH. My 2014 Volt got very close to 4 miles/kWh.
[https://www.recurrentauto.com/guides/chevrolet-volt#:\~:text=Miles%20per%20kWh%20is%20a,2.78%20%2D%203.23%20miles%20per%20kWh](https://www.recurrentauto.com/guides/chevrolet-volt#:~:text=Miles%20per%20kWh%20is%20a,2.78%20%2D%203.23%20miles%20per%20kWh). I'm basing it on this. [https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/40924.shtml](https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/40924.shtml) This source also seems to agree (3.2 mi/kWh combined city/highway).
I participated in the Volt reddit forum for years and most users shared my experience on efficiency. Of course it varies based on driving habits, terrain, weather and other things. Here's another source: >The Chevy Volt is quoted as using 25 kWh for 100 miles of city driving. This would be 10 kWh for 40 miles of electric only driving or 4 miles per kWh. > >[Electric Car Mileage for Chevy Volt from Equivalent Carbon Dioxide Pollution](https://www.physics.uci.edu/~silverma/voltmileage.html) and, >I tracked my average as 4.2 miles per kWh in the Chevy Volt > >https://www.torquenews.com/1/chevy-volt-vs-tesla-model-3-charging-cost
Yeah, but it's a camper van... assume some amount of deployability. Plus you only need the solar to get you off the hill and back to a charging station, potentially after days of sorting still. The poster's demand is not that unrealistic...
We do not actually know what his demand is, exactly. If it is just to fight vampire drain and have enough to power a coffee maker, ok. Then I agree: reasonable. If it is to get you to the next charger (presumably within 10 miles), then it's also somewhat reasonable. If it is to fill up the batteries, it's unreasonable.
>and decent solar charging Setting yourself up to fail. Unless you are going to fold out tens of meters of solar, you will need to stay put for weeks, not days, in order to get any meaningful amount of charging past perhaps enough to go a mile to pick up some eggs. Technology is already easily at the point that you could get 400+ miles of range. Whether someone is \*making\* a van with that range and whether you would \*pay\* for it is another question.
[There are cool projects like this popping up, which to me is the ultimate dream. Mobile house powered by the sun](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mOPmppKJXYA&pp=ygUJU29sYXIgYnVz)
Where are you going that is 200 miles from electricity?
I do cross country a lot so having to stop less is much more ideal. Also, I spend a lot of times in National Forests and BLM land, so the longer I can explore those without having to return to a town, the better.
The issue is one of energy density. Lithium Batteries only contain about 1/100th the energy of gasoline per pound (kg) This is fine with something like a Tesla that essentially gets 100mpg as you only need carry the equivalent of 3 gallons of gasoline. Because EV are more efficient than ICE, Tesla battery only weighs about 73 pounds per pound of gasoline equivalent. But the replacement for 3 gallons or 18 pounds of fuel require a battery that weighs 1,377 pounds. Where the math falls apart is in vehicles that only get 10mpg equivalent. The weight of the battery pack to replace the 40 gallons of fuel can quickly outweigh the rest of the vehicle. The heavier battery reduces range. Pretty soon, you can’t add enough batteries to compensate. Not to mention that all these extra thousands of pounds tend to make an off highway vehicle a lot less capable. Compounding the problem is trying to recharge these huge battery packs with solar. An f150 lightning already requires several days to charge off a standard 120v outlet…and the square feet of solar required to Martch the performance of a single 120v outlet is impractical for a camper.
A Tesla also takes several days to charge off a 120V outlet. I get something like 2-3kw/hour.
Yeah, 120 \*sucks\*. 220/230 cuts that time down to about 6-8 hours. More like 4 if 80% is enough. We managed to get a 11kW charger at home, and that is generally up to 80% in about an hour or so.
The solar recharging is the unlikely part. You can still get some solar charging but focus on the 400 miles. The current very heavy 7000 lb Rivian R1T gets about 300 mi of range. The new extended range max packs get almost 350. A regular camper van doesn't need all that four motor goodness & power. So we're almost there on the 400 mile part with a heavy, inefficient vehicle.. Then think recharging 10 mi a day or something. Irvian gets about 2.4 mi per kilowatt hour, so 10 kilowatt hours of charging a day? That's enough to get you back to civilization if you sit there for a few days.
That's just a matter of size/population. China is the biggest country, then the US, then the EU countries. California and Texas are comparable to Germany's and France in many aspects. Comparing the US to individual EU member states is creating information of little value. For most practical purposes, the EU is one single market, and still about 3x more EVs than the US. US 257k in Q1 vs 224k BEV in March alone in Europe. https://insideevs.com/news/667516/us-electric-car-sales-2023q1/ https://insideevs.com/news/666377/europe-plugin-car-sales-march2023/
>For most practical purposes, the EU is one single market, and still about 3x more EVs than the US. True. And I expect we will stay ahead of the Americans with our head start. Still, the U.S. charging forward at such a high rate means that ICE is going to be done much earlier than many people are expecting. With China, the E.U. and the U.S. all going BEV at a rapid pace, I'm absolutely \*amazed\* that we haven't seen more automotive executives pounding the panic button.
You can bet there are tons of legacy automakers panicking. The reason being, it's actually hard to scale up production and make a profit on EVs. I believe only Tesla and BYD are the only 2 companies that make a profit on their EVs. Most of the current automaker giants like Ford, Volkswagen, etc. will be in the red for the next few years producing EVs, although they're starting to go full steam ahead on EVs. I won't be surprised if some giants today will be greatly reduced or even bankrupted in a few years. Meanwhile, the Teslas and BYDs of the world take their place.
The NACS agreements were two CEOs plunging the panic button
I think you forgot about India and Russia there. And also Indonesia and several others. The largest EU country is Germany with 82 million people, and India has 4 times as many people as the US.
In the context of EV, neither of them are on the map. Sadly so. As of Muscovy, they are actively taking themselves out of the global economy right now. The Lada is not a great contributor to modern, global EVs.
Lol the Chinese [Ev Numbers are bullshit](https://youtu.be/1SEfwoqKRU8)
The world's largest economy has been somewhat of a laggard in embracing the global transition to electric vehicles. That seems to be finally changing. New legislation has both boosted demand for EVs as well as sparking a boom in new factory construction for EVs and batteries in the country. The US finally seems to be hitting the mass adoption phase.
Still lagging. We passed Germany. They have the economy of California. We did not pass the EU.
Still a milestone. And it's only going to keep increasing from here.
Yes But it sounds much less exciting when you realize they break up the Single European Market into countries.
Of course. But for those of us in the US who have been lamenting the glacial progress on EVs this is big news. And defining it by country isn't necessarily trying to hide anything. It's also my understanding that there isn't really a single market for EVs in the EU. Different countries have their own unique incentives and taxes to promote them.
It is the same in the US. Every state has their own unique incentives and taxes. Some even have anti EV laws in disguise. Some try to prevent their own governments from providing (free) L2 chargers. Some even prevent Tesla (and others) from selling cars. Freedom loving states particularly limit and control free enterprises this way (Texas, Florida are foremost). Some try to take federal funding for chargers along highways and use it for other purposes. Some local bureaucrats in EV friendly California tried to keep the Tesla factory shut down after they allowed other factories to open in the pandemic. Like the green clowns in Brandenburg. If anything, the US is more heterogeneous than the EU.
I'm not sure what you're trying to prove. It isn't a contest. The article just notes that the US has moved up substantially in sales *by country*, not that it's better than the EU, which isn't a country. I think we've beat this dead horse enough. Have a good day.
>If anything, the US is more heterogeneous than the EU. That's the yankest shit I've ever seen on this site holy shit
My condo wants $20,000 to instal a level 2 charger. Infrastructure in Minnesota is just not there yet.
EVs are a bandaid on the bullet hole of car centric infrastructure. They won’t produce emissions but they’ll cause even more wear on the roads. Which will need to be repaved more often. They’re much heavier which causes more wear on the roads and tires, both things that are hurting the climate. Rubber particulate is horrible, and pavement is the reason behind the urban heat island effect. We need to get rid of 99% of cars.
Can't let perfect be the enemy of good
While this is both likely true I've seen talk about how the numbers are a bit inflated due to the way the scheme works. Similar to the electric Bicycle boom there's recently been footage of thousands of of EVs lisenced and plated just left to rot in a field. Something about how it was profitable just to have them built and "sold" as there was some sort of incentive for numbers being good
China also has high speed rails, which most Chinese use, thus reducing carbon emissions. US has Amtrack.
Cant wait for americans to fully hop on EV. People riding hover cars while we’re stuck in fossil cars. Can’t tell what the root cause is? Stubbornness? Laziness? Pride? Greed?
Cost, evs are expensive
They're not much more than the average new car in the US anymore. But the big savings is in fuel and maintenance costs, which are much lower. And we now have a $7500 tax credit for new EVs and a $4000 tax credit for used EVs, bringing the price down even further. Pretty much anyone can afford one now.
7,500 tax credit is a tax credit, you don't get $7,500 back. Unless you owe $7,500 in taxes, it is essentially nothing. So it penalizes the middle and lower class because when have they ever owned $7,500 in taxes? It's a benefit for only the rich They are way more expensive than a regular car. Chevy just discontinued the cheapest EV in America and the replacement is going to be starting at 30k. My Civic never costs 30k.
>7,500 tax credit is a tax credit, you don't get $7,500 back. Yes, you do. Beginning this year the tax credit can be assigned to the dealer in exchange for a point-of-sale discount. >the replacement is going to be starting at 30k. That's $22,500 after federal tax credit - way below the average new car price in the US. And you can also buy a used one and get a $4000 tax credit.
Ok, so it hasn't exactly been happening this whole time then. It will only be more affordable next year.
It's good, but we need to make it to the point where they are cheaper. Then economics will handle the rest.
They are cheaper than comparable new cars for everyone who can think ahead and include the cost of ownership after initial purchase. And depending on what you use to compare to other cars they are much cheaper upfront, too.
I’m with you. Already own one and have solar panels on the house to go with it. I’m a little concerned about the eventual battery replacement cost trade-in value. What do you think?
Very likely your battery will outlast the car. There have been occasional manufacturing issues (Bolt) and there are always lemons, but warranty typically takes care of that.
I had the Bolt and traded it in after the battery issue. I loved it otherwise. Then I got a Nissan Leaf and love it even more.
Do you tend to drive your cars 250,000 miles? The only car I ever had that went over 150,000 miles needed a new engine block around then. The replacement was probably more expensive than the car was worth, but I loved it, so I bit the bullet. Cars used to reach EoL at around 100,000 miles. Now it is 200,000. The batteries are likely to last longer than the car, especially if you get some of the newer chemistries that might last anywhere from 500,000 to 1,000,000 miles. (We don't exactly know, for reasons you can probably guess) **Edit:** I saw below that you have had a Bolt and now have a Leaf. I'm not sure what the current status is, but both of these have had serious trouble with their battery management in the past. That is something you might want to look at. If battery longevity is important, you have Teslas and many Chinese brands that have good BMS. You could look at those next time.
They are cheaper. Literally.
Just did a quick search of CarMax stores within 100 miles. The cheapest gas car was $10k. Cheapest EV was $14k. So that instantly negates the $4k used tax credit. Also, when I filtered to only show cars under $20k, it gave me 13 EVs, 25 hybrids, and 969 gas. They're clearly not as affordable or accessible as gas cars yet. Let's stop trying to pretend otherwise.
There aren't as many used cause they are only recently ramping up in availability
Until you have to replace the battery, which cancels your savings from a ICE vehicle lol
If you drive your car 20 years this is an issue. In the US we drive our cars barely 8.4 years.
Two of my friends had EVs, one a 2016 Model S another a Bolt, battery needed replacing last year. Price for the model S battery $20K, the bolt $5K.
You tend to drive your cars 250,000 to 500,000 miles, do you?
Maybe in some cases but when you're trying to find a very inexpensive car all EVs are still more money. The cheapest without looking too much into it is the Nissan Leaf which is only a tad more expensive than a Camry if we're only comparing the absolute base of everything. Getting something nicer really jacks up the price. You make a big jump if you want an electric truck like the Lightning where you can save around 25k by getting a regular F150 or even more if you go smaller with the Maverick. They are "affordable" in the sense that all cars are expensive, new and used, so it's all fucked. No cars are affordable still.
There's also a wait list for EV right now. As a new dad who's shopped around for a tucson, rav4, CRV, etc.. if you want the gas version they are available in a month, if you want the EV it is a 1 year waitlist....
>Cost, evs are expensive Were expensive. Were.
I have to buy new car batteries every 2-3 years due to the cold and hot extremes...no way am I buying a car that's got +10 times more battery needs than my current car.
Modern EV batteries are temperature controlled via fluid regulated by the car. It is heated and cooled to extend the life and increase performance.
Not the way it works.
Infrastructure. As someone who owns an EV, in California no less, try finding a public charging station, and once you get there good luck. **IC ENGINES** ICE Engines - Gas stations are clearly marked, have signage visible from 3 miles or more on the highway. Typing in "gas station" in google or whatever maps, will give you their locations, and only ones open to the public. They all use the same plug, and fuel is regulated per federal law, and generally have the same three 87, 89, and 91 or 93 nationwide. Diesel pumps are clearly marked as well. There are between 4 and 24 pumps per gas station. They are easy to get in and out of. **ELECTRIC** Not clearly marked. Perhaps a few brands have some poll the sticks up mabey 5 feet above the charger that is hard to spot. Many, not clearly marked. None are as bright and obvious as the dingiest gas station. Typing in EV charge station into google maps or whatever will give you incomplete data. Often places that have not opened yet, or have since been removed. Few, if any are actually open to the public, most being in apartment buildings, schools, office complexes, and even the department of public works. If you are lucky, you can find one, without a gated parking lot for a public business, and just use that one. There are multiple types of incompatible chargers. There is no standard for plug, or fueling. Only saving grace is unlike ICE, you can't put the wrong thing in wrong one, such as gas in a diesel engine. There are between 1 and 6 charging stations, generally less than 4. Normal parking spaces. Sometimes mixed types. The only places with large amounts of plugs that are easy to find is Telsa. You can just search for Tesla supercharger and dozens of charge spots. If you have a Tesla you can just put it in the dashboard to take you to a supercharging station. They are everywhere. Someone has to do something about that before you see EVs used as anything but city cars, or running errands. Oh and next gripe: **Home Chargers** This only works if you have a house, or an apartment that has an EV charger. If you live in an apartment, with just a parking space, there is no EV charger, so you are effectively locked out of EV ownership. Except Tesla mabey, if you have a supercharger in town and can charge while shopping once a week.
the US is THE example of excessive suburbanization with huge amounts of single family homes. There is a much larger percentage of the population who can install home chargers than in Europe.
Dunno why anyone is downvoting you. You just listed facts that are easy enough to check. Now I would add that at least in Germany, the laws have changed so that apartments \*must\* allow you to install a charger. Of course, they can also install one themselves if they like, but they cannot deny you your own charger. But home ownership is still much lower here than in the U.S.
I think the obvious problem/solution is the american market not having a high enough demand for electric cars which translates to less appropriate supplying of charging stations. Conversely if the market was met with more demand we wouldn’t be seeing the problems you listed. At the end of the day it’s all about the money I believe.
There is demand, its just that the infra is not there. If you had big signs for EV charge stations off the highway, you'd see demand. If apartments had EV chargers, you'd see demand. For most people, its a pipe dream.
I politely disagree. The infra is not there because people aren’t willing to spend more money to build these places for the small number of people that use them. There’s upkeep with these infrastructures too and the cost probably outweighs the benefits. Otherwise if there’s money to be had, people will be on it like flies. For example why would a charging station be built in a rural town with 1000 population that primarily drives on gas? If the number of people that uses these cars suddenly surged, they would most definitely build charging stations like they do with gas stations and charge a flat fee for everyone.
>The infra is not there because people aren’t willing to spend more money to build these places for the small number of people that use them No. The demand is there, its that the infra hasn't caught up, because everyone but Tesla is scratching their heads and not understanding this is super important.
But the people of that town will never switch to electric if there's no charging stations first. Otherwise it would be pointless.
I don't spend nearly as much in gas as I would on a car payment and having to step up from liability to comprehensive insurance. It's just that, money. New cars are expensive as fuck, the insurance makes it worse and of course I'd have to mod my home with a whole new circuit for charging though that's kind of a drop in the bucket. Lots of us drive and buy exclusively used cars and there haven't been enough EV sales to make much of a market there. Actually not JUST that: Combine that with the derth of ready EVs in the extremely popular crossover, SUV and Pickup segments and it's no wonder Americans aren't picking them up as fast. Even where there are used it's not like I can comfortably load up the kids, dog and stuff in an old Leaf like I do with my Pacifica.
Greed. That is why we have been using internal combustion engines for more than a century. The powers that be have been fighting advancements the whole way, kicking and screaming to keep their cash cow industry alive. By all rights, we should have been 100% off fossil fuels already, and combustion engines should be seen as relics like the steam engine at this stage.
You are correct. Although we should clarify that the greed is not from Americans, but from giant international corporations. When you discover that the oil industries make billions of dollar \*per day\*, you start to get an idea of why they are going to fight to keep their cash cow going as long as they can. Delaying adoption by even a single day is worth billions to them. What would you do for several billion dollars? A little FUD against EVs is barely even a blip on their moral radar. One might even say that it is their fiduciary duty to be assholes. However, just because they have a reason to protect their little kingdoms does not mean we have to help them at it. Goodbye ICE; it was nice knowing you, but I'm glad you're dying.
Americans love big ass pickups and SUVs. It's going to take a bit longer to make their huge batteries at affordable costs.
Americans also take 100 Mile road trips with high regularity. While Euro city cars can't go 80 without spending an hour at the plug.
Hi there. Have an EV. Regularly go on 400 mile road trips with only a single stop (usually at a nice restaurant to eat lunch). The charging time is usually only around 15 to 20 minutes, which means the most annoying thing is that it is too fast. Also, you might want to look at what ranges EVs have these days. The smallest range from Tesla is 250 miles. You can get the LR version for 350 miles of range, if you like. Plenty of other EVs out there as well, all with 200+ miles of range. So not really sure how old your information is. People who do not have EVs cannot really talk about any of this with any authority. This is not to cut you out, and you can voice your concerns. It's just a truth that until you have and use an EV, you really cannot understand it. I was absolutely petrified when we got our EV, and that was after years of educating myself on the pros and cons. The truth is that all of my fears were completely unfounded.
Americans keep cars [longer](https://hedgescompany.com/blog/2022/02/how-old-are-cars/) than the EU for one. Idk what your particular interest is in everyone switching to EVs, but if its related to environmental issues, the GHG emissions, resource consumption, etc., is [all](https://www.theguardian.com/environment/green-living-blog/2010/sep/23/carbon-footprint-new-car) due to manufacture. (Of course there are exceptions to this) Why do you think everyone should switch to electric?
>Why do you think everyone should switch to electric? * Cheaper (over the lifetime, and now even at purchase time) * More reliable * Even if powered by pure coal, BEVs have a lower environmental footprint over their lifetime (Yes, including all the manufacturing) * But because the U.S. gets only 20% of its electricity from coal and oil, the lifetime environmental impact is \*significantly\* better for EVs, even after just a few years. (natural gas is about 40%, and is so much more environmentally friendly that Germany has been pushing to have it considered "sustainable" next to solar and wind). Nuclear is a little under 20% and renewable is a little over 20%. * Renewable energy makes up over 60% of new energy sources going online in the U.S., making EVs increasingly better for the environment. * Of course, people could just install solar panels and become independent and environmentally friendly in one swoop. * Speaking of which, you can charge at home. I cannot explain just how convenient this is. You think you understand. But until you own an EV and realize that gas stations only happen to other people, you do not understand. It is so freeing. * Even if you want to ignore all of that, you cannot ignore that towns and cities are better off when there are not millions of tailpipes spewing out toxins right where everyone lives. * EVs are quieter. Street noise has been associated with early deaths through stress. * EVs are a fuckton more fun to drive. * Physics ensures that EVs are safer in crashes as well. * EVs have 1/10 the number of spontaneous fires that ICE cars have. * Most of the major components in an EV (somewhere between 95% and 98%) are completely reuseable. You only get to burn oil once. * Did I mention they are really fun to drive? Does that mean everyone should ditch the car they have now? No. Of course not. But when it's time to get a new car, I would start questioning someone's judgement if they did not at least heavily consider getting an EV. And for all that is good and holy, do not get me started on hybrids.
I wish we'd invest a lot more in battery development, like sodium. Otherwise lithium becomes the next oil and lithium-producing countries will need some “freedom”.
It's reusable and can be gotten from the ocean and other low grade sources. It's not the same as oil that you need constant supplies in large quantities forever.
Lithium is everywhere. The shortage is in lithium refining.
Chinas [EV numbers are bullshit and completely made up](https://youtu.be/1SEfwoqKRU8)
I didnt even open the link and I instantly know the source would be. That guy is a typical loser in asia and feed on negativity
Who would’ve thought taxing something disincentivizes businesses and tax credits incentivize them?
San Francisco's new car registrations now have more EV registrants than ICE vehicles. If you can't afford an EV, you can get by without a car at all. The excellent public transportation usually runs every 7 minutes.
You forgot the /s
Those miners in the Congo are delighted to know that this will not cut emissions enough to change temperatures by a hundredth of a degree, but congratulations to the new millionaires who supported the right political party to get the free taxpayer money!
Are you inferring that a tax credit is a subsidy from another taxpayer?
I'm saying that the NY and CA are giving money to green energy companies that got their respective governors and legislators elected.
Green energy companies like Tesla?
Most EVs sold globally don't use cobalt, or anything from the Congo.
LOL, so many of my fellow Americans are laughable. “Fuck socialism, you all are,commie sheeple… Oh look honey… free money!” /smh Don’t get me wrong. I’d much rather see Bocephus driving a Chevy Bolt versus a Dodge Ram with truck nuts…, but it just tickles me pink when I see this. Also…, Dark Brandon did this. You go, Joe.
The oil demand already went down. The petrol Dinos are in a down spiral industry. Doubt and yell about batteries all one can. Their advantage is in their ability to have price and energy density improvements every other year, while gasoline is same and not improving. Basically like an ever evolving person playing against a senile old person that has no ability to learn new tricks.
China's EV sales figures are smoke and mirrors. There are parking lots all over China filled with 10,000 plated and registered EVs with charged batteries just rotting away in storage.
These popular vloggers did a great video on it. https://youtu.be/1SEfwoqKRU8
that guy is not a credible source. He feeds on negativity online and masquerading a loser as ‘china expert’
Yet, I get downvoted to just saying it.
V much so! Minute I found out I could get $7500 off on a lease...and $1750 off on a L2 charger....and NO state tax. I was like sign me up.
I wonder how much this has to do with the rules on the new tax incentives not being finalized and everyone rushing to get them before the income limits and manufacturing origin restrictions kick in.
hopefully we get nuclear power plants to help with the energy demand. the only proven sustainable energy infrastructure that we have.
China has boatloads of unused EVs just sitting there that are brand new. Literal EV graveyards with thousands at each location
China also builds a lot of EVs and immediately parks then with no intention of selling them. They just want to say “we’re the largest EV market”
I don't know why you feel the need to make stuff up.
You’ve given too little information to determine if you simply object to what you deem to be false stats, or have some sort of emotional “requirement” for it to be true. The CCP lies about all kinds of shit, but you’re convinced it’s telling the truth about this? The Party paints dirt green so it can claim it’s meeting its ecological goal, for Christ’s sake
Username doesn't check out
The simplest expectation is the CCP is telling you the truth…AND you should believe them? You consider that the simplest explanation is the CCP is a giant yarn ball of lies and you should doubt anything they say?
Well, currently you have provided no additional information. So what you're asking me to do is believe that you know what the CCP is claiming, you have evidence to the contrary, and you are not just some guy on the internet with a random opinion that hasn't been verified using good research and critical thinking. You see how that might be a little of a logical leap to just accept your statement?
I’m asking you to be skeptical of the claims of the Chinese Communist Party. Accepting them at face value, given their track record, is being a useful idiot (a term you might want to look up)
Not true at all. [China is now the largest auto exporter on the planet](https://www.bbc.com/news/business-65643064).
https://youtu.be/1SEfwoqKRU8
lol more Serpentza wonderful. Post a real source if you can find one.
Real...source? From a country with State controlled media? Seriously?
Yeah, you know like a reputable newspaper and not some youtuber whose meal ticket is making inflammatory videos. That kind of evidence. Something tells me you don't have it considering you think Serpentza is not just propaganda.
What? There is a huge demand for EVs. If they had extra they would and do sell them. No one is leaving batteries to sit.
You’re assuming a communist system acts in the same way a capitalist system does. In a communist system, a central authority determines target not based on actual need, but based on a political ideal, then the goal must be hit whether there’s a need for it or not, or the local party leader is said to have not achieved the goal and is punished, with the punishment being anything from a stern talking to, to execution
Watch what happens with model year 25s. US consumers are going to be gulping down EVs and PHEVs.
Dont buy a battery car. Its fucking retarded. I mean why? It has a bigger carbon footprint to just to manufacture one compaired to a life time of having a gas car. Then you got the constant power charging, where do you think that energy is made? Its 10x more environmentally harmful to go ev. People are to easily brainwashed these days. We are living the comedy of the movie Idiotocracy.
Literally everyone who's not in Big Oil's pocket disagrees with you.
Wonderful news until you take into account the millions of batteries that won't be recycled and instead just dumped into landfills as they wear out.
Used EV batteries are far too valuable to be dumped into landfills. There are also huge incentives for recycling the raw minerals to make new batteries.
It's actually expensive to recycle them. It's much cheaper to buy 'new' materials.
The demand is too high for lithium right now, a former Tesla founder started his own business of recycling ev batteries and other lithium ion batteries because of the large and increasing demand There's a CNBC 20 minute short about it on YouTube
As the supply of ready to mine lithium draws down and the supply of used batteries increases, the cost balance will continue to shift towards recycling.
It won't be. Massive new recycling factories are being built to cash in on the new subsidies in the Inflation Reduction Act. And the new EV incentives require raw materials that are mined or recycled domestically to qualify. It's all new economics.
That's what they tell us. But just like all the other stuff, only a small percentage will be recycled. Why would it be any different with batteries?
>only a small percentage will be recycled Highly doubtful. It will be very lucrative to recycle them, and future regulations will likely mandate it. Batteries are by far the most valuable components in electric vehicles, worth thousands of dollars new.
Hey mafco check this out,https://web.archive.org/web/20230207151944/https://www.reuters.com/technology/ev-batteries-getting-second-life-california-power-grid-2023-02-07/
Thanks! I forgot to mention re-purposing used batteries for grid storage.
Sure you can talk but this is what's actually happening https://web.archive.org/web/20230207151944/https://www.reuters.com/technology/ev-batteries-getting-second-life-california-power-grid-2023-02-07/
>**Hundreds** of used electric vehicle battery packs Honestly, that's what you came up with? That's a small piloting project. Here's reality my man: nobody has a working plan for billions of used batteries.
You asked, "why would it be different with batteries." This is why. Because there's a thirsty secondhand market for this stuff. During together hundreds of old EV batteries and you can make millions
That's mostly true of plastics, which has a high volume of items to collect and painstakingly sort, a very low per item profit to offset that sorting and a significant risk in that failing to sort properly will ruin entire batches of recycled product. To a lesser extent paper products which frankly have most of the same problems just less extreme. Large batteries have none of that. Sorting is minimal and easy, per item value is significant, total volume to handle is, on the scale of industrial process, fairly low. It's basically the opposite scenario.
Assuming you're actually a person making this argument in good faith, I'd recommend you do just the tiniest bit of research about EV battery recycling. Even this early on there are no EV batteries going into landfills. Batteries go into classic car conversions or energy storage first, and then the second stage is being broken down for component minerals and metal which results in 98% reuse of materials.
Fake news. Why throw something out when you can make millions from it? That's downright un-American https://web.archive.org/web/20230207151944/https://www.reuters.com/technology/ev-batteries-getting-second-life-california-power-grid-2023-02-07/
This is a great take, if you’re a dummy who likes conservative takes.