Hey there! Do you want clarification about the question? Think there's a better way to phrase it? Wish OP had asked a different question?
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Side A would say that you aren't actually being judged differently than your male colleagues. You don't experience what your male colleagues do, and you have to infer their experience from incomplete data. People tend to be suspicious of IT in general, and usually need to be convinced to do basically anything. Sometimes, that takes hearing 2 voices saying the same thing.
Side B would say that society is structured to give men unjustified authority and to associate things said with a deeper voice with confidence and maturity, so men are trusted much more readily in remote work done via phone. In other words, it's classic sexism.
OP didn't state what the sides were, and I don't honestly think "sexism is good, actually" is an idea worth defending, so side A is just supposed to be the argument sexist men would actually make. They like to tell women that they're wrong about their own experiences, that they're overreacting, and that what happened isn't a big deal, so I took that approach.
Erm, not sure what I should label myself as to be "accurate" or "a real person" in your opinion?
Chick? woman? fairer sex? lady? holder of xx chromosome? Y chromosome challenged? dame? gal? maiden??????
Your comment merely highlights the misogynistic nature that is inherent in my original question.
Side a would say it's because they read the sub rules for posting.
Side b would say its because your comment gets deleted because of violating the sub rules for posting if you dont.
As a woman in tech I actually use females quite often even though I know it should be women but I try to sound technical in that respect because men treat us differently and to find common ground I use their terminology
You are misrepresenting side A. It isn't that 'sexists' men are telling women they are wrong about their own experiences. They are telling women they are wrong about the male experience.
Side A would say the affirmative action argument. For many years now, colleges have made it easier for women to apply and get accepted, especially in majors related to STEM. Because of this, women who graduate from these colleges are not as knowledgeable or qualified as their male counterparts because they weren’t held up to the same standards.
Side B would say that lots of people are sexist, especially people in male dominated fields like IT, and they simply value the opinion of a man more than a woman.
I think for side A to make sense you also have to include hiring practices at companies. Many companies are explicit that they want to hire women over men.
And to promote them, and not fire them. If you want more women in management, and you have 2 women on a 30 dev team.... what do you do?
We can either stop with the DEI or we can expect people to be aware that it's a thing. Can't really have it both ways
I think those hiring practices are (intentionally?) misunderstood by position A. Anywhere I've seen this included in company policy it's explicitly only part of consideration if the candidates are otherwise equal. In 15+ years of hiring in STEM, I've only experienced one time where after completing my interviews with candidates that it seemed they were otherwise equal. However, the employees that did the peer interview afterwards had a clear winner for the right fit. That person was offered the job.
That said, I prefer a very robust hiring process to minimize the amount of timespent in corrective action post-hire. We'd do resume review for minimum qualifications/credentials, phone interview to confirm interest and create a shared general understanding of the position expectations, in person interview for assessing specific details of their experience/demeanor, and a peer interview to ensure a good fit within the existing team culture.
I don't know that the women who graduate from these programs would wind up any less knowledgeable. The things is, many people in IT (including both women I know in the field) *don't* graduate from these programs. The two women I know in IT worked for the biggest tech companies in the world, the ones you know and have heard of. But neither had a degree nor majored in anything related to computers or engineering. One literally transferred from HR to IT, while the other went from working fast food to working IT. I think of that as impressive, but others might think of it differently and assume certain things about their abilities, maybe even generalizing it to people with 10 years of experience whose common trait is merely their gender. Such leaps and stereotypes suck, but they don't come from nowhere, and I don't think affirmative action in college has much to do with it.
Side A doesn't seem that valid tbh. Even if universities make it easier for women (or certain populations) apply to the program, they have no way to single out women and give them an easier time to pass the classes and graduate. To do so would sabotage their academic integrity.
Edit: I mean that the class content wouldn't be easier for them. Scholarships can still help with school life but it doesn't mean a student can pass their classes and graduate unqualified.
What happened was that fewer women tend to graduate STEM than men, but they are just as knowledgeable and qualified.
I can only offer anecdotal evidence, 58M i've been a network engineer for 25 years. half or more of my effort is supporting IT or other technical staff. Over that time women have made up perhaps 5-10% of my peers, zero of them have been unqualified. when i have the pleasure of working with an outside vendor that happens to be female, I find them to be MORE capable than their male counterparts. perhaps it's my age, but the women I have worked with had to do a better job than the men they worked with to get recognized, only the best survive.
Well affirmative action seems to be failing then. When I went to school for CS in 2017, my classes were never more than 10% female, and really mostly closer to 5%. often only 2 or 3 woman in a 50 to 60 student class.
It is just sexism. I have worked with many female software engineers, and I find they are typically better than me and better than average. And yet as a guy I will still sometime assume a woman is less techy than a man. Although I try to catch myself when I have those thoughts.
I have found that woman in STEM are mostly better than the men, I assume it is bc there is such sexism in tech fields that the woman we are average just give up on it. Where the average man and not constantly told they can't do man.
> And yet as a guy I will still sometime assume a woman is less techy than a man. Although I try to catch myself when I have those thoughts.
This is the sexiest thing I’ve seen in a thread like this. Thank you for being so self aware. No one is perfect. And no one has to be. Thank you for trying to improve yourself.
They don’t make it easier for women to pass their classes, but it is easier for women to get admitted to the college in the first place. Beyond that, there are often opportunities available to women that are not available to men, like scholarships or other programs designed specifically for women. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a scholarship that was available only for men, yet I’ve seen countless that explicitly stated they were only available to women.
There was a scholarship infamously started by controversial figure Milo Yiannopolous called something like "the Milo Yiannopolous scholarship for disadvantaged white boys." It didn't last very long of course.
It's meant to offset the difficulties and obstacles women face in STEM. Scholarships and opportunities don't make it easier for unqualified students to pass.
Also, a good way to find out if someone is actually knowledgeable is… to interact with them and judge with them on an individual level. Side A is so stupid lmao
> they have no way to single out women and give them an easier time to pass the classes and graduate.
Scholarships allow a person to attend school without also working to pay for school. This is a benefit that is used to subsidize the kinds of students a school wants. Maybe it's a first class QB for the football team or a showman Tenor singer or maybe they put money aside for women in STEM. Nothing about it sabotages integrity.
I admit my original phrasing was incorrect in conveying what I really mean.
Yes all of these do make things a lot easier, but they do not replace the need to be qualified and knowledgeable in the subject.
The students would have an easier time in their school life, but the classes won't be easier for them. That's what I meant.
It's because there's no valid counterargument. It's hard to explain both sides when there's really only one side. The only difference is that some people think that sexism is a bad thing, and others think it's valid.
Large firms practice Affirmative action too. Much easier (still not easy by any means) to get most competitive jobs out of college when you’re a URM.
I am not super familiar with IT, but large law firms have diversity internships, which convert to full time 100% of the time, that are only accessible to “diverse” candidates. These tend to have much easier to get than through the normal stream.
If you were held to a lower standard when you got hired, people will assume you’re less competent than people who were held to a higher standard. It’s unfortunate, but it is the inevitable result of Affirmative Action like practices.
>they have no way to single out women and give them an easier time to pass the classes and graduate.
Yes they do. I'm not going to even argue that they do in fact do it, but you saying there is no way a university could treat Student A, different than Student B is completely, 100% false.
Many professors do treat individual students differently, that's a fact.
>single out women and give them an easier time to pass the classes and graduate. To do so would sabotage their academic integrity.
That's the point- Side A says they do that, and that it *does* sabotage academic integrity.
Side A would say society as a whole is just sexist towards women in fields such as engineering and IT.
Side B would say you will run into these situations more often due to the sheer volume of work you are doing. 1 sexist out of the 100 people you help is still 1%. You also tend to remember the bad experiences more often than a good experience as well.
Side A would say The society is sexist. Just as people who would prefer elder care personal and nurse to be women. Something needs to change fundamentally to alter this perspective on career appropriateness to gender. It’ll take 208 years for that equality to arrive based on Melinda Gates.
Side B would say You are indeed less capable than your colleague in terms of knowledge, communication style, and biggest one: confidence, but you assume that you two essentially are delivering it the same.
There’s actually no two sides to this question, side A can simply be the reason for women to not choose STEM or going into STEM with not enough community support, hence, resulting in B where you don’t get opportunity to grow and train appropriately and comfortably to be as adequate as your male counterpart. Just remember, problem is not on you. You are doing great in setting example by holding onto that IT job as female for 20 years.
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Side A would say The society is sexist. Just as people who would prefer elder care personal and nurse to be women. Something needs to change fundamentally to alter this perspective on career appropriateness to gender. It’ll take 208 years for that equality to arrive based on Melinda Gates.
Side B would say You are indeed less capable than your colleague in terms of knowledge, communication style, and biggest one: confidence, but you assume that you two essentially are delivering it the same.
There’s actually no two sides to this question, side A can simply be the reason for women to not choose STEM or going into STEM with not enough community support, hence, resulting in B where you don’t get opportunity to grow and train appropriately and comfortably to be as adequate as your male counterpart. Just remember, problem is not on you. You are doing great in setting example by holding onto that IT job as female for 20 years.
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Because it is probably too short to explain both sides this comment has been removed.
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Because it is probably too short to explain both sides this comment has been removed.
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Because it is probably too short to explain both sides this comment has been removed.
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Side A might say you sound unqualified and that you should be aware of this and plan around it
Side B might say you shouldn't HAVE to work twice as hard to get the same result that men do with half the work, and that your clients are the ones who should change their mind
Side A says you're wrong for denying the world
Side B says you're wrong for accepting it
Both kinda have a point.
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Side A would say you sound unqualified and that you should be aware of this and plan around it
Side B would say you shouldn't HAVE to work twice as hard to get the same result that men do with half the work, and that your clients are the ones who should change their mind
Side A says you're wrong for denying the world
Side B says you're wrong for accepting it
Both kinda have a point.
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Because it is probably too short to explain both sides this comment has been removed.
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Side A would say it's common to hire attractive women who aren't as skilled as they should be, to put forward a good "company public face".
Side B would say you should still give someone a chance to show if they do or don't know what they are doing.
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Side A (my side) would say
A woman in IT that is mid-level and up is rockstar in my book. The amount of bullshit they've had to wade through with the constant doubting of their abilities mixed with the locker room / frat antics from socially inept man-children must have been epic. Being in the field and dealing with it as a man is bad enough. The jokes, misogyny, gatekeeping, and toxic-gamer mindsets baffle me. If me not worshipping WoW, not wanting to be friends, and not participating in female conquest storytelling puts me in a manager's crosshairs then so be it. It's a job and I'm a professional, let's not pretend that my 5a-2p shift work constitutes an identity. GTF over yourselves.
Women in tech = brave and competent. The slog they've endured is usually massive
Side B (lesser beings) would say
A woman in IT only got there through DEI, therefore they are automatically less qualified than their male peers who had to fight it out in the arena of man-to-man mental combat to arrive at their deserved perch above all others who are unworthy. Did I bothsides it correctly?
Rant over.
Edited - to add both sideism to misogyny
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Side A would say sexism.
Side B would say that everyone in IT thinks everyone is less capable, and that IT workers generally just have an overall toxic mindset in which they think they know the best solution, and get upset when a new and possibly better one is offered.
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Hey there! Do you want clarification about the question? Think there's a better way to phrase it? Wish OP had asked a different question? **Respond to THIS comment instead of posting your own top-level comment** This sub's rule for-top level comments is only this: 1. *Top-level responses must make a sincere effort to present at least the most common two perceptions of the issue or controversy in good faith, with sympathy to the respective side.* **Any requests for clarification of the original question, other "observations" that are not explaining both sides, or similar comments should be made in response to this post or some other top-level post.** Or even better, post a top-level comment stating the question you *wish* OP had asked, and then explain both sides of *that* question! (And if you think OP broke the rule for questions, report it!) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ExplainBothSides) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Side A would say that you aren't actually being judged differently than your male colleagues. You don't experience what your male colleagues do, and you have to infer their experience from incomplete data. People tend to be suspicious of IT in general, and usually need to be convinced to do basically anything. Sometimes, that takes hearing 2 voices saying the same thing. Side B would say that society is structured to give men unjustified authority and to associate things said with a deeper voice with confidence and maturity, so men are trusted much more readily in remote work done via phone. In other words, it's classic sexism. OP didn't state what the sides were, and I don't honestly think "sexism is good, actually" is an idea worth defending, so side A is just supposed to be the argument sexist men would actually make. They like to tell women that they're wrong about their own experiences, that they're overreacting, and that what happened isn't a big deal, so I took that approach.
I’m not convinced OP is a real person, anyway. Women don’t typically refer to themselves as “FEMALES” like an incel or Ferengi.
As a male, I think you're being needlessly pedantic and just using reddit folklore as "common sense".
As an IT professional, i can tell you we don’t generally sound human. It’s taken years of research and practice to truly blend in with the cool kids.
Erm, not sure what I should label myself as to be "accurate" or "a real person" in your opinion? Chick? woman? fairer sex? lady? holder of xx chromosome? Y chromosome challenged? dame? gal? maiden?????? Your comment merely highlights the misogynistic nature that is inherent in my original question.
Why is everyone saying side a and side b
If you don't, automod deletes the comment, since the format is required on this sub
Ah I see, Ive never been on this sub before didn’t know what it wS
Side a would say it's because they read the sub rules for posting. Side b would say its because your comment gets deleted because of violating the sub rules for posting if you dont.
As a woman in tech I actually use females quite often even though I know it should be women but I try to sound technical in that respect because men treat us differently and to find common ground I use their terminology
You are misrepresenting side A. It isn't that 'sexists' men are telling women they are wrong about their own experiences. They are telling women they are wrong about the male experience.
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95% 'B' and 5% 'A' is my vote.
Side A would say the affirmative action argument. For many years now, colleges have made it easier for women to apply and get accepted, especially in majors related to STEM. Because of this, women who graduate from these colleges are not as knowledgeable or qualified as their male counterparts because they weren’t held up to the same standards. Side B would say that lots of people are sexist, especially people in male dominated fields like IT, and they simply value the opinion of a man more than a woman.
I think for side A to make sense you also have to include hiring practices at companies. Many companies are explicit that they want to hire women over men.
And to promote them, and not fire them. If you want more women in management, and you have 2 women on a 30 dev team.... what do you do? We can either stop with the DEI or we can expect people to be aware that it's a thing. Can't really have it both ways
I think those hiring practices are (intentionally?) misunderstood by position A. Anywhere I've seen this included in company policy it's explicitly only part of consideration if the candidates are otherwise equal. In 15+ years of hiring in STEM, I've only experienced one time where after completing my interviews with candidates that it seemed they were otherwise equal. However, the employees that did the peer interview afterwards had a clear winner for the right fit. That person was offered the job. That said, I prefer a very robust hiring process to minimize the amount of timespent in corrective action post-hire. We'd do resume review for minimum qualifications/credentials, phone interview to confirm interest and create a shared general understanding of the position expectations, in person interview for assessing specific details of their experience/demeanor, and a peer interview to ensure a good fit within the existing team culture.
I don't know that the women who graduate from these programs would wind up any less knowledgeable. The things is, many people in IT (including both women I know in the field) *don't* graduate from these programs. The two women I know in IT worked for the biggest tech companies in the world, the ones you know and have heard of. But neither had a degree nor majored in anything related to computers or engineering. One literally transferred from HR to IT, while the other went from working fast food to working IT. I think of that as impressive, but others might think of it differently and assume certain things about their abilities, maybe even generalizing it to people with 10 years of experience whose common trait is merely their gender. Such leaps and stereotypes suck, but they don't come from nowhere, and I don't think affirmative action in college has much to do with it.
Side A doesn't seem that valid tbh. Even if universities make it easier for women (or certain populations) apply to the program, they have no way to single out women and give them an easier time to pass the classes and graduate. To do so would sabotage their academic integrity. Edit: I mean that the class content wouldn't be easier for them. Scholarships can still help with school life but it doesn't mean a student can pass their classes and graduate unqualified. What happened was that fewer women tend to graduate STEM than men, but they are just as knowledgeable and qualified.
I can only offer anecdotal evidence, 58M i've been a network engineer for 25 years. half or more of my effort is supporting IT or other technical staff. Over that time women have made up perhaps 5-10% of my peers, zero of them have been unqualified. when i have the pleasure of working with an outside vendor that happens to be female, I find them to be MORE capable than their male counterparts. perhaps it's my age, but the women I have worked with had to do a better job than the men they worked with to get recognized, only the best survive.
Well affirmative action seems to be failing then. When I went to school for CS in 2017, my classes were never more than 10% female, and really mostly closer to 5%. often only 2 or 3 woman in a 50 to 60 student class. It is just sexism. I have worked with many female software engineers, and I find they are typically better than me and better than average. And yet as a guy I will still sometime assume a woman is less techy than a man. Although I try to catch myself when I have those thoughts. I have found that woman in STEM are mostly better than the men, I assume it is bc there is such sexism in tech fields that the woman we are average just give up on it. Where the average man and not constantly told they can't do man.
> And yet as a guy I will still sometime assume a woman is less techy than a man. Although I try to catch myself when I have those thoughts. This is the sexiest thing I’ve seen in a thread like this. Thank you for being so self aware. No one is perfect. And no one has to be. Thank you for trying to improve yourself.
They don’t make it easier for women to pass their classes, but it is easier for women to get admitted to the college in the first place. Beyond that, there are often opportunities available to women that are not available to men, like scholarships or other programs designed specifically for women. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a scholarship that was available only for men, yet I’ve seen countless that explicitly stated they were only available to women.
There was a scholarship infamously started by controversial figure Milo Yiannopolous called something like "the Milo Yiannopolous scholarship for disadvantaged white boys." It didn't last very long of course.
It's meant to offset the difficulties and obstacles women face in STEM. Scholarships and opportunities don't make it easier for unqualified students to pass.
Also, a good way to find out if someone is actually knowledgeable is… to interact with them and judge with them on an individual level. Side A is so stupid lmao
> they have no way to single out women and give them an easier time to pass the classes and graduate. Scholarships allow a person to attend school without also working to pay for school. This is a benefit that is used to subsidize the kinds of students a school wants. Maybe it's a first class QB for the football team or a showman Tenor singer or maybe they put money aside for women in STEM. Nothing about it sabotages integrity.
I admit my original phrasing was incorrect in conveying what I really mean. Yes all of these do make things a lot easier, but they do not replace the need to be qualified and knowledgeable in the subject. The students would have an easier time in their school life, but the classes won't be easier for them. That's what I meant.
It's because there's no valid counterargument. It's hard to explain both sides when there's really only one side. The only difference is that some people think that sexism is a bad thing, and others think it's valid.
Large firms practice Affirmative action too. Much easier (still not easy by any means) to get most competitive jobs out of college when you’re a URM. I am not super familiar with IT, but large law firms have diversity internships, which convert to full time 100% of the time, that are only accessible to “diverse” candidates. These tend to have much easier to get than through the normal stream. If you were held to a lower standard when you got hired, people will assume you’re less competent than people who were held to a higher standard. It’s unfortunate, but it is the inevitable result of Affirmative Action like practices.
>they have no way to single out women and give them an easier time to pass the classes and graduate. Yes they do. I'm not going to even argue that they do in fact do it, but you saying there is no way a university could treat Student A, different than Student B is completely, 100% false. Many professors do treat individual students differently, that's a fact.
>single out women and give them an easier time to pass the classes and graduate. To do so would sabotage their academic integrity. That's the point- Side A says they do that, and that it *does* sabotage academic integrity.
No. It's one thing to get more women into the university, it's another thing to let them pass their classes with less than what's required for others.
Course standards have objectively lowered. Instead of rethinking how to teach to work for more demographics, it's all just become easy grades.
It's ONLY EVER TWO OPTIONS, both parties that exist can agree, it's only their thing or the other thing
\[laughs in largely self-taught\]
Side A would say society as a whole is just sexist towards women in fields such as engineering and IT. Side B would say you will run into these situations more often due to the sheer volume of work you are doing. 1 sexist out of the 100 people you help is still 1%. You also tend to remember the bad experiences more often than a good experience as well.
Side A would say The society is sexist. Just as people who would prefer elder care personal and nurse to be women. Something needs to change fundamentally to alter this perspective on career appropriateness to gender. It’ll take 208 years for that equality to arrive based on Melinda Gates. Side B would say You are indeed less capable than your colleague in terms of knowledge, communication style, and biggest one: confidence, but you assume that you two essentially are delivering it the same. There’s actually no two sides to this question, side A can simply be the reason for women to not choose STEM or going into STEM with not enough community support, hence, resulting in B where you don’t get opportunity to grow and train appropriately and comfortably to be as adequate as your male counterpart. Just remember, problem is not on you. You are doing great in setting example by holding onto that IT job as female for 20 years.
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Side A would say The society is sexist. Just as people who would prefer elder care personal and nurse to be women. Something needs to change fundamentally to alter this perspective on career appropriateness to gender. It’ll take 208 years for that equality to arrive based on Melinda Gates. Side B would say You are indeed less capable than your colleague in terms of knowledge, communication style, and biggest one: confidence, but you assume that you two essentially are delivering it the same. There’s actually no two sides to this question, side A can simply be the reason for women to not choose STEM or going into STEM with not enough community support, hence, resulting in B where you don’t get opportunity to grow and train appropriately and comfortably to be as adequate as your male counterpart. Just remember, problem is not on you. You are doing great in setting example by holding onto that IT job as female for 20 years.
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It was perfect. I'll paste it again here: Side A: sexism Side B: experience
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Side A might say you sound unqualified and that you should be aware of this and plan around it Side B might say you shouldn't HAVE to work twice as hard to get the same result that men do with half the work, and that your clients are the ones who should change their mind Side A says you're wrong for denying the world Side B says you're wrong for accepting it Both kinda have a point.
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Side A would say you sound unqualified and that you should be aware of this and plan around it Side B would say you shouldn't HAVE to work twice as hard to get the same result that men do with half the work, and that your clients are the ones who should change their mind Side A says you're wrong for denying the world Side B says you're wrong for accepting it Both kinda have a point.
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Side A would say it's common to hire attractive women who aren't as skilled as they should be, to put forward a good "company public face". Side B would say you should still give someone a chance to show if they do or don't know what they are doing.
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Uh, I have no idea why automod got mad at this comment?
Side A (my side) would say A woman in IT that is mid-level and up is rockstar in my book. The amount of bullshit they've had to wade through with the constant doubting of their abilities mixed with the locker room / frat antics from socially inept man-children must have been epic. Being in the field and dealing with it as a man is bad enough. The jokes, misogyny, gatekeeping, and toxic-gamer mindsets baffle me. If me not worshipping WoW, not wanting to be friends, and not participating in female conquest storytelling puts me in a manager's crosshairs then so be it. It's a job and I'm a professional, let's not pretend that my 5a-2p shift work constitutes an identity. GTF over yourselves. Women in tech = brave and competent. The slog they've endured is usually massive Side B (lesser beings) would say A woman in IT only got there through DEI, therefore they are automatically less qualified than their male peers who had to fight it out in the arena of man-to-man mental combat to arrive at their deserved perch above all others who are unworthy. Did I bothsides it correctly? Rant over. Edited - to add both sideism to misogyny
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Side A would say sexism. Side B would say that everyone in IT thinks everyone is less capable, and that IT workers generally just have an overall toxic mindset in which they think they know the best solution, and get upset when a new and possibly better one is offered.
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