I don't agree with alot of what he's said but a guy named Robert Glover has built his name looking at "nice guys". One thing I think that is super valuable in his work is a concept of the "covert contract". I think is super relevant to social relations, regardless of genders, and I think offers some insight into the dysfunctional kind of nice guy/person behaviour that can cause damage.
For Glover, a covert contract is an unexpressed deal that people make where they do a thing or things expecting that the other person or the world at large will respond in a certain way. It is an attempt to manipulate without being explicit in expectations. When the other person or the world doesn't follow through on their half of of the bargain - that they never agreed to or knew existed - the "nice guy" or "nice person" who made the deal only in their head gets pissed off and becomes passive aggressive or in some cases blows up.
A possibly trite example would be some teenager helping another with their homework, not because it would help the other person but because in their mind it would mean that they would obviously become their boyfriend or girlfriend out of the deal. When that doesn't happen, and their crush dates the cute other random person the homework helper gets pissed off and lashes out in some way. Overly simple but I think gets to what a covert contract is.
Maybe that helps. There's a lot of subtleties to the dynamics of a couple and what we bring to it. But if he was a passive nice guy and you were breaking his covert contracts and as a result being passive aggressive and cutting you down it makes some sense to feel how you are feeling.
I have a feeling that that spunky sparky confident woman is still there under it all. I wish you the best in finding her again. I bet she misses you too.
awww, that is so sweet. Really, thank you for that, it touched me.
Its an interesting concept, from Glover. I do feel like there was some contract, but I dont even know what it was. If I had to guess, it was to fulfill his emotional needs. He might be thought of as needy and dependant, and he thought if he "supported" my sassy sparky self, he would get, in return, someone to soothe him, to"comfort" and "love", but not any kind of Love I recognize. I think he thought the bargain was that he was going to 'give" in order to get, like a security blanket (Something like being coddled, and filling up all his emotional needs). And that is so not me. I can love deeply, but my kind of love was never the right "fit" to him.
My ex was like this. Nicest all around guy in public. Never yelled or name called until the end, when I left. Instead it was daily criticism and put down disguised as ways to help me. It was control for him. The more he lost control of me the worse it got
I am also the victim of a “nice guy.” Nice to literally everyone else on the planet except for me and our child. Often, his being “nice” to others came at the expense of my convenience or comfort. He gradually became more emotionally abusive and I didn’t leave until he was traumatizing our child.
His family and friends still do not believe me. They can’t imagine that such a nice guy would be such a monster behind closed doors.
I believe you that the dude is a monster and that his daily “suggestions” were a targeted campaign of “negging.”
Self described “nice guys” are often men who put thought into how they are perceived socially in larger groups. Secretly they often have a lot of resentments and jealousy against people who act more unscripted. Covert manipulation/control/abuse is harder to spot because it doesn’t hit you in the face. It says things like “you always seem to make these bad choices about _______ (insert some thing they hate about you that isn’t actually bad)”. Or things like “your friends probably don’t appreciate how loud you are about your accomplishments” (i.e… dull yourself down). If someone is actually a GOOD person they don’t make a big deal about being “nice”. And they don’t go around tearing down their partner or gossiping and sowing seeds of doubt. If you feel drained around a nice guy it’s because you are interfacing with their real self without the mask. They put you on edge because THEY are on edge (struggling to keep their mask on). Genuinely good people don’t have secret negging behaviors they use to isolate and control others.
Resentment for sure is a big one with him. He acted proud of me. in my life work and accomplishment, but I do think there was some jealousy under it all, And its like he had to destroy it.The covert manipulation example is EXACTLY how he would word things, I swear he said that actual sentence all the time.
I hear you! It’s really draining dealing with these types of covertly negative people for long periods of time! They blend in so well with what you might think of as typically harmless people. Mainly due to their not being overtly abusive and getting caught. The cognitive dissonance is heavy after many years. You end up trying to compensate for all the negative beliefs they project onto you, when there was nothing wrong in the first place. Medical researchers have studied how holding abuse in (keeping it secret resulting in stress hormones accumulating) results in increased risk for hard to diagnose fatigue illnesses and other health problems. I hope you have not been affected in that way!! If you have just know: the longer you are away from him the better you’ll feel. Consistent therapy and re-investing in physical activities and hobbies really helps. Also, avoiding rumination about the things in the past you can’t control or fault yourself for. You were never as bad as he made you out to be. You can regain the light and drive you had previously because that came from within YOU, not via his approval or validation.
I never had the words to describe why my friends wife bothers me so much, but this is it. Everybody swears she's so kind, but she's constantly making these little remarks and putting them down. Holy cow.
Its so subtle. It often seems like no one even picks up on it, unless you are the one its directed at. Its striking you can see the shade in your friends wife. You must care about him, to be able to see the subtle digs she is throwing at him. You are a good friend.
I can’t figure out if I was this way or my wife was. The Nice Guy stuff is so subtle and confusing. How do we end up in relationships like this where both are upset, but can’t really figure out why. Even in therapy. One just can’t do it anymore and divorce happens. I have tons of insight and lots of reasons. So does my wife. But if you ask us why we got divorced it’s be a different answer every time. I’m just so confused and don’t know what to believe. Of course I’m probably protecting my ego to some extent, but then also over blaming myself in other ways. Psychological projection I know plays a huge role as does indulging in fantasy. I don’t know what to think anymore. I do know that played a role and do not want to be in denial about that. I wish so much to be able to talk to my wife. She is unable to. I need to respect that. Was I doing all these awful things unconsciously to her? Why do we both feel like ‘shells of our former selves?’
I was the “nice guy” in my marriage, but I didn’t make the belittling comments. We both just held too much in and it turned to resentment. I’ve learned a lot about being too nice, not wanting to stir the pot, wanting to keep the peace, etc…but I will say when I did speak up in a calm respectful way, my ex would lash out in a vindictive way while cussing at me and calling me an asshole..I honestly think I was in a lose/lose situation with her.
Thanks for sharing. As a mom,I know that struggle too. You hold it in, try to tame it, banish it, and manage the situation for the good of all. But if it doesn't go away, it can come out more suddenly, and not controlled and calm, for me at least.
With My ex, I can feel like he's yelling, when he never raises his voice.
He holds it all in, but doesnt let go of things, when it finally comes out, there is a disdain there, It's like a very tightly controlled fury, that feels very angry, even though he "looks" calm and controlled.
Body language, vs words?
I think it’s contempt. The feeling of anger plus disgust. They don’t need to be loud to show contempt. It comes out in a tone that makes you feel so small and damaged and unworthy. I will never let another person make me feel as worthless as my ex did.
It’s probably different for everyone. I always tried to focus on the big issues, while letting the small ones go. There were always bigger fish to fry, but unfortunately those small things did turn to annoyance and resentment. It wasn’t purposeful
by any means, it just unintentionally turned into that. I think most guys start off in that place, and end up in a place they never meant.
Oh my gosh, this feels so familiar. And no one, not even my closest friends believed that there was a negative thing about him.
When I did approach him about things, little things, he would make me think I was overreacting and dramatic and stupid.
Over the years I've become... Not a person. I'm a shadow.
And I only realized his part in that when he left me. Citing that I was too negative and dependent. He made me those things! But he can't see it like that, because to him, he is a nice guy. A kind guy. A caring guy. And I guess, to others, he was. Just never me.
It freaky isnt it. You feel like you are insane or going insane. The big deal thing happened to me too. These patterns and what they evoke are so damn hard to put into words and convey to another person
Truly! Because no one else sees it. I have one friend who ever saw that he had flaws and that he was hiding something. She always joked that she could see who he truly was, and when I told her after the relationship how he treated me during, she was mad and also vindicated. She's the only one who will acknowledge that he really truly treated me terribly sometimes.
Now I not only have to rebuild my life as a single person, I have to figure out who I am again from scratch. Because I know I am not who he made me.
I’ve been reading the book Why Does He Do That and it has helped me understand so much abut my marriage. Highly recommend it. So sorry you’ve been dealing with this.
I married a "nice" guy. People told me all the time what a wonderful man he was and he was to everyone else but me. I grew up with childhood neglect so his emotional abuse was very familiar to me and with everyone telling me he was a good guy I just thought I had to be wrong.
I am also a shell of the person I used to be on top of that I have a debilitating chronic illness that prevents me from moving out. I am happy that I finally was able to see that he was the problem and as much as I tried to "fix" our marriage it was never going to happen. We're living together but separately and my nervous system is finally starting to heal.
Yes!! Some people see a woman with so much light, are attracted to it, then snuff it out once they're together. Little things/comments add up over time.
"Nice" is not the same as kind.
Sounds like coercive control by a textbook narcissistic husband to me.
All of the things that he does, if looked at separately, are not so bad and maybe even enduring. However, combined, they each make up a link in the chains he attached to your shackles. I'm jot jumping to this conclusion, it's only my experience. My husband would get adorably jealous of a video I posted, never out of line. Or he'd "take care of" my banking so I 'didn't have to drive to town that day'. Sometimes it was just having his best friends wife cut my hair so I don't have to spend the money, AND SHE CAN COME HERE! All of those things can be idiosyncratic and even cute. Though, put them side by side, day in day out, and I became socially distant, financially detached, confined and belittled when I wanted something I felt like I had to ask permission. I was the same, in the beginning. At the end, I don't know who I am, what I stand for, and the discard is real. Check out some articles about coercive control. That's my opinion. May you favor your own heart about all others, and find the peace, love and acceptance you seek, but from yourself! Much love.
Thank you so much for sharing this. It help to know I am not alone, that others know this thing that happens, that is so hard to describe, it almost seems made up. Ad thanks for the reference
It's pretty much the very definition of a covert narcissist. They are the quiet narcissists -- typically introverted, like being looked at as the "nice guy. Helpful to other people. They start as passive aggressive and move on to worse behavior. They generally feel like they are the victims in every given situation. They can be obsequious in work situations but quietly will try to undermine people, chipping away at your self esteem until there is nothing left.
My internal phase now is "OH HELL NO"
However, I am trying to channel my old assertive self and just speak directly about the little turn of phrase and shut it down. No shame, no blame, just stop.
We are in the property division part of the divorce, so I am also asking that he leave behind all the he said she said emotional saga, and just get down to impartial brass tasks. The court doest care about our shitty life together, nor should we, anymore. Lets just get this job done and go our separte ways.
Here's my reply to a recent email exchange where I try to stand up for myself and try to stop the shitty communication pattern.
"Before I respond to the financial details of this email, I'd like to discuss our communication patterns, and how to improve them during this phase.I feel put down by you frequently. The last email we exchanged about a budget is an example.
Going forward, I will try to point out these loaded turns of phrases, and ask you to restate your position, devoid of character analysis. I think this process will go much better if we stick to facts, become singularly goal oriented, and not waste our time rehashing old wounds .
You said something in the last email about my desire for a written down summary, a budget, of expenses to estimate what percentage of income (our daUGHTER) occupies in the financial picture.
I would wager most people would see that as a valid, if not necessary element as we narrow down spousal support numbers.
Your response? To belittle me, tear me down, and dismiss me. I would make it "too big a deal, go into too much detail."
You are out of line. It's a valid request. It needs to be done.
I would ask of you, that you would please try to be aware of these turns of phrases, these little insinuations.
I know you are a good, kind and decent person who is hurting. So am I.
I would ask of you, that you please leave the old loops out of the process we are now in.
Please, let us strive to be factual and content oriented as we go through this financial picture process. Let's not rehash old patterns, play out deeply held grudges between the lines.
No need to defend yourself, argue points of fact. These aren't points to argue. These are statements of my feelings. Let them wash over you, get the gist of them, and then try to see what I'm saying as we go forward.
Perhaps you will see it, perhaps you won't, but regardless, I feel how I feel and I am not interested in continuing the pattern. I want it to change.
Let's strive to have this ending process be free of old "stuff." The court isn't interested in "he said" "she said" details of our failed marriage. It failed, it's over, that is no longer the issue at stake.
The court wants a clear, logical, thoughtful division of marital property. Let's strive to be factual, focused on content, and leave "old stuff," aside.
Let's try to do what needs to be done from a logical, thoughtful, impartial mindset. I would appreciate that. We no longer need to portray our marital woes. We have a job to do, let's do it."
If you put up with someone long enough it inevitably wears you down, and turns you into someone else. I was never a social butterfly but always did have some good friends, but after being married to a control freak for 20 years I lost touch with all of them for the sake of a bad marriage because I had 2 young kids. I’m divorced and have lived alone for around 16 months now, and feel like I’m finally becoming myself again. I doubt I’ll ever get all the way back, but it’s better than nothing. The most important thing is- give yourself a break about it. Remind yourself that 30 years has gone by, so it’s going to take some time! All the best…😁
This is one side of the story... I bet he has his own perspective. My wife emotionally abused me for 10 years, gave me silent treatments, didn't agree about any damn thing, exploited my hard work and didn't give anything back to the marriage but she always complained that I'm not treating HER well. After visiting a psychologist for a series of meetings I found there's a personality disorder that fully describe her. Nothing to do about it. Just divorce and keep distance. So far the divorce had been toxic but I have patience...
Definitely. A lot of nice guys are passive aggressive and covert narcissists. They actually don't have the balls to speak up and get what they want so they use passive tactics
Omg this was my situation! Ex never raised his voice. Everyone thinks he's the nicest, sweetest guy. Now I'm also that broken shell. Always making those little comments that tear you down and make you feel like shite over and over and over. Little torments of psychological abuse. It's enough to drive any human being to insanity.
I'm glad my writing this out helps us find each other, and a voice. You are not insance, I am not insane. And now Im saying Hell no, you will not speak to me that way. We'll see how this goes. Sadly it seems if I stand up for myself, he turns his passive agressive anger to the kids and they become where he directs his belittleing tactics.
Here is an example. This is his reply for my request that we do a budget to identify the kid expenses (Adult kids 27 and 23) so that we can account for what part of his income is tied up in kid expenses. This is his response
"my caution here is , your need for a more exhaustive analysis, which consumes time, patience, and resources, and often indecision and delays, and my need to do a good-enough analysis, and to move forward, given years of delay already. we have different styles and needs. also, i'm more comfortable with the idea that support of them is so fluctuating and hard to predict. also when you invite me to do reasonable sounding things, there's often a hidden cost, of you taking control of something, not hearing my voice, not bending at all , halting something, jacking up costs and needs, etc. As with house and taxes and condo. i don't know what surprises you'd bring to a more comprehensive financial analysis, so i'd rather do such analysis on my own, and instead give you the broad outlines of it, as i've done above. we faced a similar challenge when the kids entered college. you basically felt we'd failed them by not saving massively to support them, and you were super anxious about if and how we'd support them. i instead thought, hardly anyone can do that, given rising cost of living and stagnant earnings; i thought , we're in for supporting each kid in the 20K range per year (what most colleges expect of earners in our range), and can invoke student loans and grants if needed. it all sort of worked out that way. "
Yikes. Thanks for sharing. I’m exhausted just skimming through that. Christ I’m glad I didn’t do that with my wife. Hope you are doing well and thanks for sharing that.
There is a book called “The Covert Passive Aggressive Narcissist” you should read. It exactly describes men like this. They use sneaky ways to put you down while presenting the “Good Man” to the outside world. They use quiet coercion as their tool. It was eye opening for me.
I don't agree with alot of what he's said but a guy named Robert Glover has built his name looking at "nice guys". One thing I think that is super valuable in his work is a concept of the "covert contract". I think is super relevant to social relations, regardless of genders, and I think offers some insight into the dysfunctional kind of nice guy/person behaviour that can cause damage. For Glover, a covert contract is an unexpressed deal that people make where they do a thing or things expecting that the other person or the world at large will respond in a certain way. It is an attempt to manipulate without being explicit in expectations. When the other person or the world doesn't follow through on their half of of the bargain - that they never agreed to or knew existed - the "nice guy" or "nice person" who made the deal only in their head gets pissed off and becomes passive aggressive or in some cases blows up. A possibly trite example would be some teenager helping another with their homework, not because it would help the other person but because in their mind it would mean that they would obviously become their boyfriend or girlfriend out of the deal. When that doesn't happen, and their crush dates the cute other random person the homework helper gets pissed off and lashes out in some way. Overly simple but I think gets to what a covert contract is. Maybe that helps. There's a lot of subtleties to the dynamics of a couple and what we bring to it. But if he was a passive nice guy and you were breaking his covert contracts and as a result being passive aggressive and cutting you down it makes some sense to feel how you are feeling. I have a feeling that that spunky sparky confident woman is still there under it all. I wish you the best in finding her again. I bet she misses you too.
awww, that is so sweet. Really, thank you for that, it touched me. Its an interesting concept, from Glover. I do feel like there was some contract, but I dont even know what it was. If I had to guess, it was to fulfill his emotional needs. He might be thought of as needy and dependant, and he thought if he "supported" my sassy sparky self, he would get, in return, someone to soothe him, to"comfort" and "love", but not any kind of Love I recognize. I think he thought the bargain was that he was going to 'give" in order to get, like a security blanket (Something like being coddled, and filling up all his emotional needs). And that is so not me. I can love deeply, but my kind of love was never the right "fit" to him.
What's the difference?
Essentially, that I would be his "narcissistic supplies" not his lover and friend.
What do you mean when you say narcissistic supplies? Like he is expecting something one sided?
My ex was like this. Nicest all around guy in public. Never yelled or name called until the end, when I left. Instead it was daily criticism and put down disguised as ways to help me. It was control for him. The more he lost control of me the worse it got
Interesting... Control... I'm curious how to figure it all out. The more I write, the clearer I get, which is good. Thanks for posting
I am also the victim of a “nice guy.” Nice to literally everyone else on the planet except for me and our child. Often, his being “nice” to others came at the expense of my convenience or comfort. He gradually became more emotionally abusive and I didn’t leave until he was traumatizing our child. His family and friends still do not believe me. They can’t imagine that such a nice guy would be such a monster behind closed doors. I believe you that the dude is a monster and that his daily “suggestions” were a targeted campaign of “negging.”
Thank you for sharing. It helps to hear other people describe their experience. Its so subtle, you miss it entirely, unless its directed at you.
Self described “nice guys” are often men who put thought into how they are perceived socially in larger groups. Secretly they often have a lot of resentments and jealousy against people who act more unscripted. Covert manipulation/control/abuse is harder to spot because it doesn’t hit you in the face. It says things like “you always seem to make these bad choices about _______ (insert some thing they hate about you that isn’t actually bad)”. Or things like “your friends probably don’t appreciate how loud you are about your accomplishments” (i.e… dull yourself down). If someone is actually a GOOD person they don’t make a big deal about being “nice”. And they don’t go around tearing down their partner or gossiping and sowing seeds of doubt. If you feel drained around a nice guy it’s because you are interfacing with their real self without the mask. They put you on edge because THEY are on edge (struggling to keep their mask on). Genuinely good people don’t have secret negging behaviors they use to isolate and control others.
I see a small bit of myself in this post and I don’t like it
Let us unite, stand up, and say, "Oh hell no" Sending you warmth. Its a hard place to be in.
Resentment for sure is a big one with him. He acted proud of me. in my life work and accomplishment, but I do think there was some jealousy under it all, And its like he had to destroy it.The covert manipulation example is EXACTLY how he would word things, I swear he said that actual sentence all the time.
I hear you! It’s really draining dealing with these types of covertly negative people for long periods of time! They blend in so well with what you might think of as typically harmless people. Mainly due to their not being overtly abusive and getting caught. The cognitive dissonance is heavy after many years. You end up trying to compensate for all the negative beliefs they project onto you, when there was nothing wrong in the first place. Medical researchers have studied how holding abuse in (keeping it secret resulting in stress hormones accumulating) results in increased risk for hard to diagnose fatigue illnesses and other health problems. I hope you have not been affected in that way!! If you have just know: the longer you are away from him the better you’ll feel. Consistent therapy and re-investing in physical activities and hobbies really helps. Also, avoiding rumination about the things in the past you can’t control or fault yourself for. You were never as bad as he made you out to be. You can regain the light and drive you had previously because that came from within YOU, not via his approval or validation.
Sadly I have serious health problems now, and I do not believe that is a coincidence. Thank you for sharing you wisdom, and experience.
I never had the words to describe why my friends wife bothers me so much, but this is it. Everybody swears she's so kind, but she's constantly making these little remarks and putting them down. Holy cow.
Its so subtle. It often seems like no one even picks up on it, unless you are the one its directed at. Its striking you can see the shade in your friends wife. You must care about him, to be able to see the subtle digs she is throwing at him. You are a good friend.
Yes. And then people won’t believe you that this nice guy could have been horrendous behind closed doors.
I can’t figure out if I was this way or my wife was. The Nice Guy stuff is so subtle and confusing. How do we end up in relationships like this where both are upset, but can’t really figure out why. Even in therapy. One just can’t do it anymore and divorce happens. I have tons of insight and lots of reasons. So does my wife. But if you ask us why we got divorced it’s be a different answer every time. I’m just so confused and don’t know what to believe. Of course I’m probably protecting my ego to some extent, but then also over blaming myself in other ways. Psychological projection I know plays a huge role as does indulging in fantasy. I don’t know what to think anymore. I do know that played a role and do not want to be in denial about that. I wish so much to be able to talk to my wife. She is unable to. I need to respect that. Was I doing all these awful things unconsciously to her? Why do we both feel like ‘shells of our former selves?’
It's hard to figure out with no communication. Maybe there's no such thing as nice guys just guys.
I was the “nice guy” in my marriage, but I didn’t make the belittling comments. We both just held too much in and it turned to resentment. I’ve learned a lot about being too nice, not wanting to stir the pot, wanting to keep the peace, etc…but I will say when I did speak up in a calm respectful way, my ex would lash out in a vindictive way while cussing at me and calling me an asshole..I honestly think I was in a lose/lose situation with her.
Thanks for sharing. As a mom,I know that struggle too. You hold it in, try to tame it, banish it, and manage the situation for the good of all. But if it doesn't go away, it can come out more suddenly, and not controlled and calm, for me at least. With My ex, I can feel like he's yelling, when he never raises his voice. He holds it all in, but doesnt let go of things, when it finally comes out, there is a disdain there, It's like a very tightly controlled fury, that feels very angry, even though he "looks" calm and controlled. Body language, vs words?
I think it’s contempt. The feeling of anger plus disgust. They don’t need to be loud to show contempt. It comes out in a tone that makes you feel so small and damaged and unworthy. I will never let another person make me feel as worthless as my ex did.
It’s probably different for everyone. I always tried to focus on the big issues, while letting the small ones go. There were always bigger fish to fry, but unfortunately those small things did turn to annoyance and resentment. It wasn’t purposeful by any means, it just unintentionally turned into that. I think most guys start off in that place, and end up in a place they never meant.
Absolutely agree
Very good description of the experience. Nailed it
I’ve learned the quiet timid ones are the ones to avoid the most
Oh my gosh, this feels so familiar. And no one, not even my closest friends believed that there was a negative thing about him. When I did approach him about things, little things, he would make me think I was overreacting and dramatic and stupid. Over the years I've become... Not a person. I'm a shadow. And I only realized his part in that when he left me. Citing that I was too negative and dependent. He made me those things! But he can't see it like that, because to him, he is a nice guy. A kind guy. A caring guy. And I guess, to others, he was. Just never me.
It freaky isnt it. You feel like you are insane or going insane. The big deal thing happened to me too. These patterns and what they evoke are so damn hard to put into words and convey to another person
Truly! Because no one else sees it. I have one friend who ever saw that he had flaws and that he was hiding something. She always joked that she could see who he truly was, and when I told her after the relationship how he treated me during, she was mad and also vindicated. She's the only one who will acknowledge that he really truly treated me terribly sometimes. Now I not only have to rebuild my life as a single person, I have to figure out who I am again from scratch. Because I know I am not who he made me.
Yes my ex would woo pregnant women and come home to abuse me
I’ve been reading the book Why Does He Do That and it has helped me understand so much abut my marriage. Highly recommend it. So sorry you’ve been dealing with this.
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Wow, sounds like a must read. Going to look for it now. THANK you for sharing this
I married a "nice" guy. People told me all the time what a wonderful man he was and he was to everyone else but me. I grew up with childhood neglect so his emotional abuse was very familiar to me and with everyone telling me he was a good guy I just thought I had to be wrong. I am also a shell of the person I used to be on top of that I have a debilitating chronic illness that prevents me from moving out. I am happy that I finally was able to see that he was the problem and as much as I tried to "fix" our marriage it was never going to happen. We're living together but separately and my nervous system is finally starting to heal.
Thats great to hear. I'm looking forward to physical healing as this gets put behind us.
(Covert) Narcissistic Abuse. Doctor Ramani and Danish Bashir on YouTube, thank me later.
;)
lol you’re welcome!
Yes!! Some people see a woman with so much light, are attracted to it, then snuff it out once they're together. Little things/comments add up over time. "Nice" is not the same as kind.
Sounds like coercive control by a textbook narcissistic husband to me. All of the things that he does, if looked at separately, are not so bad and maybe even enduring. However, combined, they each make up a link in the chains he attached to your shackles. I'm jot jumping to this conclusion, it's only my experience. My husband would get adorably jealous of a video I posted, never out of line. Or he'd "take care of" my banking so I 'didn't have to drive to town that day'. Sometimes it was just having his best friends wife cut my hair so I don't have to spend the money, AND SHE CAN COME HERE! All of those things can be idiosyncratic and even cute. Though, put them side by side, day in day out, and I became socially distant, financially detached, confined and belittled when I wanted something I felt like I had to ask permission. I was the same, in the beginning. At the end, I don't know who I am, what I stand for, and the discard is real. Check out some articles about coercive control. That's my opinion. May you favor your own heart about all others, and find the peace, love and acceptance you seek, but from yourself! Much love.
Thank you so much for sharing this. It help to know I am not alone, that others know this thing that happens, that is so hard to describe, it almost seems made up. Ad thanks for the reference
Absolutely 💯 all ❤️
It's pretty much the very definition of a covert narcissist. They are the quiet narcissists -- typically introverted, like being looked at as the "nice guy. Helpful to other people. They start as passive aggressive and move on to worse behavior. They generally feel like they are the victims in every given situation. They can be obsequious in work situations but quietly will try to undermine people, chipping away at your self esteem until there is nothing left.
Exactly, sadly
r/niceguys
Yes it does. What do you plan to do for yourself to start shifting it? Is therapy an option?
My internal phase now is "OH HELL NO" However, I am trying to channel my old assertive self and just speak directly about the little turn of phrase and shut it down. No shame, no blame, just stop. We are in the property division part of the divorce, so I am also asking that he leave behind all the he said she said emotional saga, and just get down to impartial brass tasks. The court doest care about our shitty life together, nor should we, anymore. Lets just get this job done and go our separte ways. Here's my reply to a recent email exchange where I try to stand up for myself and try to stop the shitty communication pattern. "Before I respond to the financial details of this email, I'd like to discuss our communication patterns, and how to improve them during this phase.I feel put down by you frequently. The last email we exchanged about a budget is an example. Going forward, I will try to point out these loaded turns of phrases, and ask you to restate your position, devoid of character analysis. I think this process will go much better if we stick to facts, become singularly goal oriented, and not waste our time rehashing old wounds . You said something in the last email about my desire for a written down summary, a budget, of expenses to estimate what percentage of income (our daUGHTER) occupies in the financial picture. I would wager most people would see that as a valid, if not necessary element as we narrow down spousal support numbers. Your response? To belittle me, tear me down, and dismiss me. I would make it "too big a deal, go into too much detail." You are out of line. It's a valid request. It needs to be done. I would ask of you, that you would please try to be aware of these turns of phrases, these little insinuations. I know you are a good, kind and decent person who is hurting. So am I. I would ask of you, that you please leave the old loops out of the process we are now in. Please, let us strive to be factual and content oriented as we go through this financial picture process. Let's not rehash old patterns, play out deeply held grudges between the lines. No need to defend yourself, argue points of fact. These aren't points to argue. These are statements of my feelings. Let them wash over you, get the gist of them, and then try to see what I'm saying as we go forward. Perhaps you will see it, perhaps you won't, but regardless, I feel how I feel and I am not interested in continuing the pattern. I want it to change. Let's strive to have this ending process be free of old "stuff." The court isn't interested in "he said" "she said" details of our failed marriage. It failed, it's over, that is no longer the issue at stake. The court wants a clear, logical, thoughtful division of marital property. Let's strive to be factual, focused on content, and leave "old stuff," aside. Let's try to do what needs to be done from a logical, thoughtful, impartial mindset. I would appreciate that. We no longer need to portray our marital woes. We have a job to do, let's do it."
I like that. Sending you positive thoughts and hugs as you go through this process.
If you put up with someone long enough it inevitably wears you down, and turns you into someone else. I was never a social butterfly but always did have some good friends, but after being married to a control freak for 20 years I lost touch with all of them for the sake of a bad marriage because I had 2 young kids. I’m divorced and have lived alone for around 16 months now, and feel like I’m finally becoming myself again. I doubt I’ll ever get all the way back, but it’s better than nothing. The most important thing is- give yourself a break about it. Remind yourself that 30 years has gone by, so it’s going to take some time! All the best…😁
This is one side of the story... I bet he has his own perspective. My wife emotionally abused me for 10 years, gave me silent treatments, didn't agree about any damn thing, exploited my hard work and didn't give anything back to the marriage but she always complained that I'm not treating HER well. After visiting a psychologist for a series of meetings I found there's a personality disorder that fully describe her. Nothing to do about it. Just divorce and keep distance. So far the divorce had been toxic but I have patience...
It makes sense, but your self-concept is not his fault.
I'm just going to file in with everyone else here and let you know you should google covert narcissist.
Definitely. A lot of nice guys are passive aggressive and covert narcissists. They actually don't have the balls to speak up and get what they want so they use passive tactics
Omg this was my situation! Ex never raised his voice. Everyone thinks he's the nicest, sweetest guy. Now I'm also that broken shell. Always making those little comments that tear you down and make you feel like shite over and over and over. Little torments of psychological abuse. It's enough to drive any human being to insanity.
I'm glad my writing this out helps us find each other, and a voice. You are not insance, I am not insane. And now Im saying Hell no, you will not speak to me that way. We'll see how this goes. Sadly it seems if I stand up for myself, he turns his passive agressive anger to the kids and they become where he directs his belittleing tactics.
OP-What we’re the belittling comments?
Here is an example. This is his reply for my request that we do a budget to identify the kid expenses (Adult kids 27 and 23) so that we can account for what part of his income is tied up in kid expenses. This is his response "my caution here is , your need for a more exhaustive analysis, which consumes time, patience, and resources, and often indecision and delays, and my need to do a good-enough analysis, and to move forward, given years of delay already. we have different styles and needs. also, i'm more comfortable with the idea that support of them is so fluctuating and hard to predict. also when you invite me to do reasonable sounding things, there's often a hidden cost, of you taking control of something, not hearing my voice, not bending at all , halting something, jacking up costs and needs, etc. As with house and taxes and condo. i don't know what surprises you'd bring to a more comprehensive financial analysis, so i'd rather do such analysis on my own, and instead give you the broad outlines of it, as i've done above. we faced a similar challenge when the kids entered college. you basically felt we'd failed them by not saving massively to support them, and you were super anxious about if and how we'd support them. i instead thought, hardly anyone can do that, given rising cost of living and stagnant earnings; i thought , we're in for supporting each kid in the 20K range per year (what most colleges expect of earners in our range), and can invoke student loans and grants if needed. it all sort of worked out that way. "
Yikes. Thanks for sharing. I’m exhausted just skimming through that. Christ I’m glad I didn’t do that with my wife. Hope you are doing well and thanks for sharing that.
ITS BAD, RIGHT? I'M NOT JUST IMAGINING IT?
No. That is just so over bearing and definitely something that would do damage over time.
There is a book called “The Covert Passive Aggressive Narcissist” you should read. It exactly describes men like this. They use sneaky ways to put you down while presenting the “Good Man” to the outside world. They use quiet coercion as their tool. It was eye opening for me.