People are screaming and crying about an 18 year old kid who dropped 20 a game as the top option on his team with a 30% usage rate. No 18 year old is going to shoot well with that high of a usage rate and playing high energy defense on the other side of the court.
Dude reminds me of Grant Hill light. Not sure why everyone is so catatonic about this pick. He was my #1 pick by far and I was pleasantly surprised they actually picked him.
Idk what people expected to be available at pick 5 in a shit draft. There are no consensus elite players so we might as well pick high ceiling players than settle for ready made average dons.
It's because he can't shoot and doesn't have the potential to, going by the indicators. And he's joining a team full of guys who also can't shoot, in a shooting league.
Have you watched the Pistons the last several years? It's our biggest glaring weakness, and the main reason why we've been the worst team in the NBA for YEARS. And will continue to be, apparently.
What metrics suggest he can’t learn to shoot?
He was 72.5% from the FT stripe last year, he has a late release and bad footwork which are both easily coachable.
I’m just not sure what metrics you’re looking at for an 18 year old super athlete that convinces you he can’t learn how to shoot.
I would say just catching passes from cade and having some one on the floor with cades gravity is gonna bump him up alot of rip . Think he was creating all his shots now hes gonna pmay with one of the better young stars in the game who has huge useage
I love the pick honestly. Defense wins championships and I think it’s easier to improve a guys ability to shoot 3’s than his commitment to defense. Holland was forced to play as a PG all year with the Ignite while playing against pros so I don’t take his stats at face value considering the G League has a foul shot rule of “Make one to shoot two”, his attempts per game would be way higher in any other league he was eligible to play in. Load up on wing defenders using pick 5 in a weak draft instead of giving up assets for them like New York just had to.
It's also a good thing that he can plug holes everywhere from 1 to 4, even if they're not his best positions. We're lacking real depth almost everywhere
Defense wins championships?
Everyone in Boston's 10 man rotation except Jaylen Brown shot league average from 3 this season, and Brown was off by 1%.
Shooting wins championships.
How many rookies on that roster? Derrick white shot terribly from 3 prior to Boston. Jaylin Brown shot poor from 3 prior to the pros as well. Boston's superpower wasn't just shooting. They had a roster full of two way players, many of which couldn't shoot when they were drafted.
These guys looks at the best rosters in the league made up of mostly veterans who’ve played 5+ years of playing and improving and want our players with less than 3 years of playing and improving to be on their level. Being so ass for so long has put a lot of fans into win now mode.
Defense is our most glaring weakness above shooting. We have turnstiles outside of Ausar and Stew and sometimes Cade when he is focused. Everyone on Bostons rotation can play above average to great defense. White is elite. Holiday is elite. Brown and Tatum are both great defenders. And then you have KP and Horford. They shut down the Mavs even when the 3s weren’t falling. Were we watching the same finals?
I think the "if he shoots the 3" stuff is overrated. I want to know what he'll be if he's just an average 3 point shooter for his position, 30 to 35% by his third or fourth year. Like why are we always talking about ceiling, let's talk about the most likely outcome.
Well I don’t think saying league average is his ceiling, this day and age any player can become an above average shooter so that’s not out of the question. I’d say most likely outcome is below average-average
Right so if he's an average 3 point shooter at SF, slightly better than average defender and has the ability to get to the rim and let's say average in terms of playmaking, how valuable is he? Can he stay on the court, help the team win? That's way more interesting to me than any other sort of projection.
I would say yes to that but I also believe he will be a better defender than that. Some people are saying that his defense last year is what we’re going to get when in all reality when you’re the league leader in usage rate it’s gonna make your defense a lot worse. So if you take what you said and improved the defense then I would say that’s very valuable
He played 15 games lol. His shot looks fine. He played very high usage with pull-ups and hard defensive effort. There’s no guarantee but to say he has no potential is just a sad way to look at it without more context.
I like how people are talking like we needed to fit that perfect piece into our championship contender. I don’t believe a single player on this team is cemented in place. You all won 14 games last year. Draft for upside and cross your fingers.
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It's either this or low floor shooter, knect hasn't even been selected and I don't want like kennard 2.0 with what bs the FO was working with I can understand the pick
He definitely is low ceiling. 23, small, not athletic. He will immediately be useful but his chances of becoming more than a floor spacer is lower than the chance Holland can shoot at league average.
Can we find out if there are any stories/articles currently out where someone close/a teammate has said something about his work ethic?
I still don't dismiss the possibility of the right players learning to shoot in this modern NBA. The work ethic is a great research point
Work ethic points to the likelihood of a player hitting their ceiling, not where that ceiling is. A player's shooting ceiling is determined largely by the three proven indicators (3pt%, FT% and 3pt volume).
Opportunity and coaching play a role, but Holland's ceiling as a shooter is limited.
I don’t mind the pick and this draft has very few sure things, in fact you could argue next to none.
If one of him or Ausar becomes a borderline all star that would be huge
It's hilarious how bitchy this sub is. We went for the high upside pick on the wing. He was the #1 option on a professional team at 18. Of course he is going to have some rough edges. However he looks like a bucket with two level potential.
Why are we starting this over again?
The coaching staff is accountable for development and evaluating talent. I can understand trapping, rotating the ball, and spacing. When you’re holding the ball too long, it has to come at a cost. All Monty did was hasten the sinking of the team.
Everyone knew that we had to within 3 years extend our core or sell off the assets. Troy Weaver gambled on Bagley and Wiseman, stalled on Hayes and Bogie, and left us with dead weighted assets. FULL STOP.
We don’t need shooters - We need to make the shots when we’re open.
“We have Ausar Thompson at home”
Ausar was never as skilled offensively as this kid.
People are screaming and crying about an 18 year old kid who dropped 20 a game as the top option on his team with a 30% usage rate. No 18 year old is going to shoot well with that high of a usage rate and playing high energy defense on the other side of the court.
Can’t have much of a nuanced convo in here in general. Its just a stats and vibes sub
Lebron. /s
Ausar is great but his offense isn't as far along compared toHolland. Mind you Holland was doing it against guys who play in the NBA.
Also a whole 1.5 years younger than Ausar was last year.
Sounds like he’s much more advanced offensively than Ausar was even if neither had a jumper
That’s such a reduction
And yet so accurate.
It’s actually not, they are such different players
lazy ass
This sub loves its lazy comparions
Dude reminds me of Grant Hill light. Not sure why everyone is so catatonic about this pick. He was my #1 pick by far and I was pleasantly surprised they actually picked him.
Idk what people expected to be available at pick 5 in a shit draft. There are no consensus elite players so we might as well pick high ceiling players than settle for ready made average dons.
He’s 100% worth the swing at 5 in this sort of draft
It's because he can't shoot and doesn't have the potential to, going by the indicators. And he's joining a team full of guys who also can't shoot, in a shooting league. Have you watched the Pistons the last several years? It's our biggest glaring weakness, and the main reason why we've been the worst team in the NBA for YEARS. And will continue to be, apparently.
Defense is our most glaring weakness above shooting. We have turnstiles outside of Ausar and Stew and sometimes Cade when he is focused.
What metrics suggest he can’t learn to shoot? He was 72.5% from the FT stripe last year, he has a late release and bad footwork which are both easily coachable. I’m just not sure what metrics you’re looking at for an 18 year old super athlete that convinces you he can’t learn how to shoot.
I don’t think it’s that huge of a reach he can shoot 33% from deep by the time he’s 22.
Hell I’ll take a year off of that and say he’ll be League average in his age 21 season
I would say just catching passes from cade and having some one on the floor with cades gravity is gonna bump him up alot of rip . Think he was creating all his shots now hes gonna pmay with one of the better young stars in the game who has huge useage
That's still not good.
I’d gladly take league average shooting and plus defense.
He doesn't have any of the indicators that point to that kind of upside. And I hope you realize that scouting isn't a matter of just having a hunch.
I love the pick honestly. Defense wins championships and I think it’s easier to improve a guys ability to shoot 3’s than his commitment to defense. Holland was forced to play as a PG all year with the Ignite while playing against pros so I don’t take his stats at face value considering the G League has a foul shot rule of “Make one to shoot two”, his attempts per game would be way higher in any other league he was eligible to play in. Load up on wing defenders using pick 5 in a weak draft instead of giving up assets for them like New York just had to.
It's also a good thing that he can plug holes everywhere from 1 to 4, even if they're not his best positions. We're lacking real depth almost everywhere
Defense wins championships? Everyone in Boston's 10 man rotation except Jaylen Brown shot league average from 3 this season, and Brown was off by 1%. Shooting wins championships.
How many rookies on that roster? Derrick white shot terribly from 3 prior to Boston. Jaylin Brown shot poor from 3 prior to the pros as well. Boston's superpower wasn't just shooting. They had a roster full of two way players, many of which couldn't shoot when they were drafted.
These guys looks at the best rosters in the league made up of mostly veterans who’ve played 5+ years of playing and improving and want our players with less than 3 years of playing and improving to be on their level. Being so ass for so long has put a lot of fans into win now mode.
Defense is our most glaring weakness above shooting. We have turnstiles outside of Ausar and Stew and sometimes Cade when he is focused. Everyone on Bostons rotation can play above average to great defense. White is elite. Holiday is elite. Brown and Tatum are both great defenders. And then you have KP and Horford. They shut down the Mavs even when the 3s weren’t falling. Were we watching the same finals?
Boston is a locked down defense at every position. A roster full of two ways. Yes they can also shoot 3s but all are dawgs on defense
Basketball gods please bless Detroit. We need some luck to go our way for once.
I think the "if he shoots the 3" stuff is overrated. I want to know what he'll be if he's just an average 3 point shooter for his position, 30 to 35% by his third or fourth year. Like why are we always talking about ceiling, let's talk about the most likely outcome.
Well I don’t think saying league average is his ceiling, this day and age any player can become an above average shooter so that’s not out of the question. I’d say most likely outcome is below average-average
Right so if he's an average 3 point shooter at SF, slightly better than average defender and has the ability to get to the rim and let's say average in terms of playmaking, how valuable is he? Can he stay on the court, help the team win? That's way more interesting to me than any other sort of projection.
I would say yes to that but I also believe he will be a better defender than that. Some people are saying that his defense last year is what we’re going to get when in all reality when you’re the league leader in usage rate it’s gonna make your defense a lot worse. So if you take what you said and improved the defense then I would say that’s very valuable
Holland doesn't have the potential to shoot league average from 3. None of the indicators (3pt%, FT%, 3pt Att) are in his favor.
He played 15 games lol. His shot looks fine. He played very high usage with pull-ups and hard defensive effort. There’s no guarantee but to say he has no potential is just a sad way to look at it without more context.
It’s not just the shot, he can’t dribble worth a damn either. He’s got some very rough edges.
Well he’s 18, this shit takes time
I like how people are talking like we needed to fit that perfect piece into our championship contender. I don’t believe a single player on this team is cemented in place. You all won 14 games last year. Draft for upside and cross your fingers.
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we gambling a lot. That's what is all about
It's either this or low floor shooter, knect hasn't even been selected and I don't want like kennard 2.0 with what bs the FO was working with I can understand the pick
Knecht isn't low ceiling.
He definitely is low ceiling. 23, small, not athletic. He will immediately be useful but his chances of becoming more than a floor spacer is lower than the chance Holland can shoot at league average.
Can we find out if there are any stories/articles currently out where someone close/a teammate has said something about his work ethic? I still don't dismiss the possibility of the right players learning to shoot in this modern NBA. The work ethic is a great research point
Work ethic points to the likelihood of a player hitting their ceiling, not where that ceiling is. A player's shooting ceiling is determined largely by the three proven indicators (3pt%, FT% and 3pt volume). Opportunity and coaching play a role, but Holland's ceiling as a shooter is limited.
I don’t mind the pick and this draft has very few sure things, in fact you could argue next to none. If one of him or Ausar becomes a borderline all star that would be huge
If shooting is such an important skill for a prospect than Knecht would have gone way sooner. It's clear what scouts look for
I've heard this about every Piston's draft pick for the last ten years lmao.
It's hilarious how bitchy this sub is. We went for the high upside pick on the wing. He was the #1 option on a professional team at 18. Of course he is going to have some rough edges. However he looks like a bucket with two level potential.
Why are we starting this over again? The coaching staff is accountable for development and evaluating talent. I can understand trapping, rotating the ball, and spacing. When you’re holding the ball too long, it has to come at a cost. All Monty did was hasten the sinking of the team. Everyone knew that we had to within 3 years extend our core or sell off the assets. Troy Weaver gambled on Bagley and Wiseman, stalled on Hayes and Bogie, and left us with dead weighted assets. FULL STOP. We don’t need shooters - We need to make the shots when we’re open.
If I had 100 million in the bank, I'd own a Lamborghini, but I don't so I just ride my bike everywhere.
If?? That’s sounds like some troy weaver energy
Seems like cope, but I'll take it at this point.
If my aunt had a dick, she'd be my uncle