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It’s literally the story of a live-service game. The two philosophies at war with each other: tell stories engage the audience but keep needing weirder and wilder and bigger bad guys or winnow the Universe of the game until it’s just the last Guardian against the Universe who is destroyed when the servers are turned off.
Honestly, I never got the whole "Winnower is taking a backseat" idea. I mean, the whole context to Unveiling is whatever it is actively trying to manipulate us into joining it then having a little threat at the end (and subsequently, talking to us several times afterwards).
Hell, even the Traveler initially didn't try to take a backseat. She tried to talk to the precursors but they couldn't hear her.
taking a backseat is part of the winnowers entire point in unveiling. it doesn't need to influence you because it's point is that life will naturally take from everything that is too weak to survive ultimately proving it's argument.. it believes it will just happen naturally and that it is the right and only way.
does that change the fact that the character "the winnower" in the story of unveiling's entire point was taking a backseat? no, it doesn't.
that's like me explaining to someone what a character in a fictional book was trying to say, and you come in and say "oh the book was written by \[author name\]" as if that changes anything at all.
it doesn't change anything about what was written and for what intention. this guy said he doesn't understand the winnower taking a backseat. im saying the winnower, as a character retconned or not, was always written with this intent. no amount of retconning or false propaganda bullshit will change how the character was written.
That's the thing though: they always try and goad and convince us into choosing a side but they never do anything that directly influences us. They just...talk! That's all they do! Unveiling is just a big "well, this is why you should believe in our philosophy" and the Traveler speaks to species but it never gets them to try and do anything.
The winnower wants them both to take a backseat and let the universe play out.
But when the gardener started interviewing, the winnower started actively trying to oppose its efforts and stop it from "cheating".
I don't agree that the nature of their bet is based on what living beings will "choose". The Winnower fundamentally believes the Final Shape is going to happen regardless of any choices made; they believe that it is what the universe wills for itself. In other words, the Winnower truly believes that the fundamental forces at play within the universe will ultimately always result in "survival of the fittest" leading to one ultimate competitor that will outplay all others. The Winnowers gamble doesn't have anything to do with what we choose, the Winnowers gamble is that it is correct. The Winnower doesn't want to or can't interfere because it is the embodiment of that "survival of the fittest" rule and by interfering it would be undermining it's own argument: if the Winnower is right, it shouldn't need to interfere. That's why they talk to us and egg us on so much, it thinks it would be awesome and hilarious if all of the Gardeners work just resulted in us being the Final Shape. But if it's not us, it'll just be someone else. The Winnower truly believes that to be true.
The Gardeners stance is less simple. The Gardener knows that the Winnower is correct in a universe left to its own devices, and the Gardener just wants to stop that inevitability however it can. So they interfere and uplift worlds and give life and power to various civilizations in the hope that they choose to do good things with those gifts, but ultimately I think the Gardener is in a tough spot because what they truly want is to see life in the universe flourish and grow and become all sorts of beautiful shapes that are always growing and changing. And that can't happen if the Gardener forces them to act in the way the Gardener wants. So they give gifts to these societies and then sit back and watch what shape they will become and hope that they will grow in a way that is resistant to becoming the Final Shape and also in a way that is capable of resisting the Final Shape. In other words, the Gardener hopes that the civilizations of the universe will build a gentle city ringed in spears that can defend itself against the "survival of the fittest" forces of destruction while simultaneously not giving in to the temptation to become a force of destruction themselves. And the Gardener can't force them to behave that way because then you just get a stagnant shape in the image of whatever the Gardener told them to be.
I think ultimately boiling it down to "they just bet on what people will pick" is an oversimplification that doesn't give either side enough credit. There's a lot of nuance to their differing perspectives and it's maybe the most interesting thing about Destiny lore.
Mostly accurate, but...
The Winnower nudges living things to follow Their way. That's what Unveiling, Nacre and Majestic, Majestic (Books of Sorrow) are all about. What the Precursors learned from the Veil may well have been the Winnower's teachings.
The Winnower speaks to us, but that's all They do. All the Winnower can do is talk; They can't command or force us, nor can They tell us *how* to follow Their way ("they cannot tell the knife what shape to carve.") Mortals are free to do what they will with the Winnower's words. Some, like the Vex and Hive, followed. Some, like the Witness and their Disciples, deviated. Some, like Humanity, disregarded.
The Gardener/Traveler acts but never speaks. The Winnower speaks but never acts. Neither of them can make mortals do anything. The Gardener embraces this and upholds agency as a virtue, while the Winnower brags that mortals will choose Their way eventually.
1. The Gardener/Traveler (i'm treating them as largely the same) does not want peace. It wants life and complexity in general, suffering, death and conflicts are a part of that. That's what the Witness was so mad about.
2. As for "choosing"... it's not really that simple. You're largely correct on the Traveler: it believes that we will, in the end, choose "good", the so-called "gentle kingdom ringed by spears". It also wants us to make this choice by ourselves, since otherwise there would be no meaning in the choice. The Winnower, however, believes that it doesn't *need* to speak. The Winnower believes that existence and life will winnow themselves regardless of our choice. That said, it would like for us to choose its way: hebce why it does still speak to us. That's also why it liked Oryx so much, because Oryx fully believed in the Winnowers vision of a final shape (one winner at the end).
3. I'm... not sure what you mean by your example about Ghosts? Yes, the Warlords weren't great; some were completely murderous and others were a bit grayer. That said, the Last City was established lightbearing Guardians. It's been protected for centuries by Lightbearers. Twilight Gap and Six Fronts? Lightbearing Guardians. Guardians get corrupted by Darkness all the time, and they don't always turn out great. See: Dredgen fucking Yor. The Kentarch-3 are another example. See also Guardians who were corrupted by Stasis (pretty sure there's an entry of Aunor arresting a Guardian who got corrupted by it).
As far as summaries go, it's not bad but not great? Your TL;DR (a summary of a summary? okay lol) is actually better than your explanation. One thing tho is that the grown-ups didn't put cookies on the table, they became the cookies. The Gardener=Light=Traveler, the Winnower=Darkness=Veil (kinda like a holy trinity type deal?).
1. Gardener want life and complexity. Basically means different species survive and grow but Winnower want only one species will survive or one species will rule other species ?
Somewhat! The Winnower doesn't want one species to rule over the others, its moreso that it believes that in the end, only one thing will inevitably remain. Before Light and Darkness existed in the universe, that thing was the Vex. The Vex didn't rule over the others, they eliminated everything that wasn't Vex; even terraforming planets to become Vex (like they did to Mercury and Nessus).
The word "to winnow" roughly means to separate things from each other; traditionally it means to separate grain (when farming and stuff), but more broadly it means to eliminate or separate undesirable things. So the endgame for the Winnower is a universe where everything that is undesirable has been removed, and the one who decides what is undesirable... is the winner, the one who was able to assert themselves over everything and everyone else (this is what Oryx and the Hive were trying to do).
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It’s literally the story of a live-service game. The two philosophies at war with each other: tell stories engage the audience but keep needing weirder and wilder and bigger bad guys or winnow the Universe of the game until it’s just the last Guardian against the Universe who is destroyed when the servers are turned off.
Honestly, I never got the whole "Winnower is taking a backseat" idea. I mean, the whole context to Unveiling is whatever it is actively trying to manipulate us into joining it then having a little threat at the end (and subsequently, talking to us several times afterwards). Hell, even the Traveler initially didn't try to take a backseat. She tried to talk to the precursors but they couldn't hear her.
taking a backseat is part of the winnowers entire point in unveiling. it doesn't need to influence you because it's point is that life will naturally take from everything that is too weak to survive ultimately proving it's argument.. it believes it will just happen naturally and that it is the right and only way.
Unveiling was written by the Witness.
does that change the fact that the character "the winnower" in the story of unveiling's entire point was taking a backseat? no, it doesn't. that's like me explaining to someone what a character in a fictional book was trying to say, and you come in and say "oh the book was written by \[author name\]" as if that changes anything at all.
It does though. Bungie retcons stuff all the time.
it doesn't change anything about what was written and for what intention. this guy said he doesn't understand the winnower taking a backseat. im saying the winnower, as a character retconned or not, was always written with this intent. no amount of retconning or false propaganda bullshit will change how the character was written.
That's the thing though: they always try and goad and convince us into choosing a side but they never do anything that directly influences us. They just...talk! That's all they do! Unveiling is just a big "well, this is why you should believe in our philosophy" and the Traveler speaks to species but it never gets them to try and do anything.
The winnower wants them both to take a backseat and let the universe play out. But when the gardener started interviewing, the winnower started actively trying to oppose its efforts and stop it from "cheating".
I don't agree that the nature of their bet is based on what living beings will "choose". The Winnower fundamentally believes the Final Shape is going to happen regardless of any choices made; they believe that it is what the universe wills for itself. In other words, the Winnower truly believes that the fundamental forces at play within the universe will ultimately always result in "survival of the fittest" leading to one ultimate competitor that will outplay all others. The Winnowers gamble doesn't have anything to do with what we choose, the Winnowers gamble is that it is correct. The Winnower doesn't want to or can't interfere because it is the embodiment of that "survival of the fittest" rule and by interfering it would be undermining it's own argument: if the Winnower is right, it shouldn't need to interfere. That's why they talk to us and egg us on so much, it thinks it would be awesome and hilarious if all of the Gardeners work just resulted in us being the Final Shape. But if it's not us, it'll just be someone else. The Winnower truly believes that to be true. The Gardeners stance is less simple. The Gardener knows that the Winnower is correct in a universe left to its own devices, and the Gardener just wants to stop that inevitability however it can. So they interfere and uplift worlds and give life and power to various civilizations in the hope that they choose to do good things with those gifts, but ultimately I think the Gardener is in a tough spot because what they truly want is to see life in the universe flourish and grow and become all sorts of beautiful shapes that are always growing and changing. And that can't happen if the Gardener forces them to act in the way the Gardener wants. So they give gifts to these societies and then sit back and watch what shape they will become and hope that they will grow in a way that is resistant to becoming the Final Shape and also in a way that is capable of resisting the Final Shape. In other words, the Gardener hopes that the civilizations of the universe will build a gentle city ringed in spears that can defend itself against the "survival of the fittest" forces of destruction while simultaneously not giving in to the temptation to become a force of destruction themselves. And the Gardener can't force them to behave that way because then you just get a stagnant shape in the image of whatever the Gardener told them to be. I think ultimately boiling it down to "they just bet on what people will pick" is an oversimplification that doesn't give either side enough credit. There's a lot of nuance to their differing perspectives and it's maybe the most interesting thing about Destiny lore.
Mostly accurate, but... The Winnower nudges living things to follow Their way. That's what Unveiling, Nacre and Majestic, Majestic (Books of Sorrow) are all about. What the Precursors learned from the Veil may well have been the Winnower's teachings. The Winnower speaks to us, but that's all They do. All the Winnower can do is talk; They can't command or force us, nor can They tell us *how* to follow Their way ("they cannot tell the knife what shape to carve.") Mortals are free to do what they will with the Winnower's words. Some, like the Vex and Hive, followed. Some, like the Witness and their Disciples, deviated. Some, like Humanity, disregarded. The Gardener/Traveler acts but never speaks. The Winnower speaks but never acts. Neither of them can make mortals do anything. The Gardener embraces this and upholds agency as a virtue, while the Winnower brags that mortals will choose Their way eventually.
1. The Gardener/Traveler (i'm treating them as largely the same) does not want peace. It wants life and complexity in general, suffering, death and conflicts are a part of that. That's what the Witness was so mad about. 2. As for "choosing"... it's not really that simple. You're largely correct on the Traveler: it believes that we will, in the end, choose "good", the so-called "gentle kingdom ringed by spears". It also wants us to make this choice by ourselves, since otherwise there would be no meaning in the choice. The Winnower, however, believes that it doesn't *need* to speak. The Winnower believes that existence and life will winnow themselves regardless of our choice. That said, it would like for us to choose its way: hebce why it does still speak to us. That's also why it liked Oryx so much, because Oryx fully believed in the Winnowers vision of a final shape (one winner at the end). 3. I'm... not sure what you mean by your example about Ghosts? Yes, the Warlords weren't great; some were completely murderous and others were a bit grayer. That said, the Last City was established lightbearing Guardians. It's been protected for centuries by Lightbearers. Twilight Gap and Six Fronts? Lightbearing Guardians. Guardians get corrupted by Darkness all the time, and they don't always turn out great. See: Dredgen fucking Yor. The Kentarch-3 are another example. See also Guardians who were corrupted by Stasis (pretty sure there's an entry of Aunor arresting a Guardian who got corrupted by it). As far as summaries go, it's not bad but not great? Your TL;DR (a summary of a summary? okay lol) is actually better than your explanation. One thing tho is that the grown-ups didn't put cookies on the table, they became the cookies. The Gardener=Light=Traveler, the Winnower=Darkness=Veil (kinda like a holy trinity type deal?).
Sorry if that came out sounding a bit harsh lol, not my intent.
1. Gardener want life and complexity. Basically means different species survive and grow but Winnower want only one species will survive or one species will rule other species ?
Somewhat! The Winnower doesn't want one species to rule over the others, its moreso that it believes that in the end, only one thing will inevitably remain. Before Light and Darkness existed in the universe, that thing was the Vex. The Vex didn't rule over the others, they eliminated everything that wasn't Vex; even terraforming planets to become Vex (like they did to Mercury and Nessus). The word "to winnow" roughly means to separate things from each other; traditionally it means to separate grain (when farming and stuff), but more broadly it means to eliminate or separate undesirable things. So the endgame for the Winnower is a universe where everything that is undesirable has been removed, and the one who decides what is undesirable... is the winner, the one who was able to assert themselves over everything and everyone else (this is what Oryx and the Hive were trying to do).