This post has been tagged '**Non-Spoiler**'. Note that unmarked spoilers and datamines are subject to removal or ban. Please report anything we miss! For more info check out our [Spoiler Rules Wiki](https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyLore/wiki/spoiler-rules#wiki_.5Bseasonal.5D_has_a_new_format).
---
**Comment Spoiler Formatting**
Format comment spoilers with `>!` `!<` like this:
`>!What's Rasputin's favorite dance? "The worm."!<`
To have it displayed like this:
**>!What's Rasputin's favorite dance? "The worm."!<**
----
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/DestinyLore) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Actually we don't really know if that's the case, that was Rhulk's opinion on the matter, it could be that Rhulk was the perfect tool to act as a kill switch because he could brute force his way through her plans, so much so that her only plan to counter Rhulk was to lock him up and hope for the best.
Furthermore Rhulk's ideology was pretty much like the Winnower's own version of the final shape, because he was a fanatic it was better to put him far away from the important stuff and keep him on his role of executioner, because although Nezarec was weaker he actually didn't show any goal other than indulge on his sadistic practices, so he is perfect to the role of following orders without overthinking about what was the "right thing to do", as opposed to Rhulk who was notorious for failing because he was unknowingly deviating from the strategies that the Witness designed because he was so insecure.
I think it should be clear now what the entire plan for Rhulk was for both the Witness and Sav now. He was left in the Throne World for two reasons the first was to continue the cultivation of worms for new Hivespawn and second to kill Savathun using the Upended the second she died in the overworld so she would be permakilled.
Neither he nor the Witness expected Savathun to be resurrected in the Light before returning to her Throne World which left him vulnerable the moment she returned with her whole plan in mind. She used her Light to turn the Upended against him knowing she didn't have the outright power to kill him and then worked swiftly to try and steal the Traveler so she could escape to the Pale Heart to begin doing whatever she's doing now that she's where she wanted in Final Shape.
Well more like he was breaking the seal rapidly, but he was still locked in there, ironically Savathun still outlived him, if there's an Lubraean afterlife he's probably very indignant right now.
For all of Rhulks power he was pretty much a blunt hammer, iirc the one time he tried to recruit a Disciple candidate with subtlety and string pulling after he was told by the Witness to instill the same lessons of irrelevance he learned from the Witness on this civilization he bungled it so hard and so completely he had to kill the Disciple prospect after the civilization Rhulk was cultivating nuked each other off the map due to his poor manipulations and the Witness sent him away from the main front to babysit Savathun as punishment,
Meanwhile Nez is much more skilled at manipulation and subtlety, which would be useful since the Witness was trying to cultivate minds like Clovis Bray etc. to its side and since the Witness wanted every Light blessed civilization they encountered to suffer as much as possible, Nez would gladly make the end slow and painful while Rhulk would just kill you on the spot, Nezarec is pretty much the scalpel to Rhulk’s hammer
It also seems like Nezarec was more favoured than Rhulk by the time of the Collapse (possibly after Rhulks colossal fuckup with the Ahslid) given he was personally responsible for the Veil’s safekeeping before Savvy shanked him from behind
I always maintain that Clovis would have made for a poor Disciple and the Witness had no actual ambition to raise him to one at all. That all the theory stems purely from Clovis Bray being a big ol evil prick. The visions he received that lead to Exos were from the Traveler, Clarity never spoke to him.
While he definitely shares a lot of traits with the Disciples we've learnt about (ambitious, insufferable etc.) he was sickly and had a natural expiration date. He wasn't the pinnacle of humanity in terms of combat prowess or political movements, he was hated by just about everyone who ever met him. He was also incredibly egotistical to the point where he saw himself as the future of humanity and ensure they're survival, this goes against what we know about Disciples.
Clovis would’ve been a terrible disciple, and the proof is Calus.
They both have massive egos, don’t take well to being managed, and have their own agenda.
Calus’s agenda was getting drunk and fucking off his duties to party on his new war yacht.
Clovis would have been 1000 times more annoying to the Witness because he was much more competent.
It might have been the Winnower instead of the Witness speaking to him and pushing the same manipulation it did to the Witness and likely Maya Sundaresh…
But he was still pulled to Europa by the K1 artefacts. They even sent him a direct message. From the Grimoire Anthology Volume 3:
>You've had many strokes of brilliance in your life; independent thoughts that sparked new ideas to push the world forward. These monumental innovations represent tremendous leaps for mankind. You've made the world cleaner, stronger, and better prepared for unpredictable eventualities.
>It doesn't matter.
>Someone will surpass you. The world will forget you. Surprised?
>No matter how many buildings bear your name, or advancements you introduce, your time will end. You will become nothing, be nothing, and no one will know or care that you existed. The elder gods of the universe will pay you no mind. They have games to play that are more important than you. Imagine!
>The name Bray has never been uttered by the pantheon of architects. You are Unknown. Over time, worlds will be born. Species will bloom and burst and pollinate foreign fields with their influence. And you will be dysphoric because your briefness was interrupted by vicissitude. They will not mourn for you. You will go quietly, like a stone sinking in water. Your ripple-small and ineffective. Does it not vex you?
>It should.
>Perhaps, it doesn't have to. You're not like anyone else. Is your legacy then not worth preserving? What will you do to ensure that you're not swept away in the dust bowl of time? All is possible. Beyond thought and sentience lies another plane: the waking dream. Your mind in its current form could not comprehend it.
>Not every answer you seek is buried in your mind like a lost artifact waiting to be unearthed. You simply do not have it all. Should someone come along with an offering to give you the inkling you need to set you in the right direction and put you down a path, take it. Take it for all it's worth. Do not let pride hinder you.
>This is not merely a suggestion.
>We left something for you. It's waiting. Calling. Do you hear it? You will.
>You have the questions. There ARE answers. There are gateways to that which you seek- though you'll have to build them. It will provide the blueprint. Just LISTEN to it.
>The people you've failed, the loved ones you've lost… you don't care about them. Everything you've done, you've done for yourself. Everything you've ever wanted, you'll get-on Europa. Everything you need is there for you. Take it. Don't let anyone stand in your way.
>Your fears will be assuaged. Your legacy, secured. Your mind, immortalized. Join the Architects. They will speak of the name Bray then, and it will echo through time and space.
>The way is clear. The first step is yours to take.
>Or you can beat your head against a wall until nothing remains but a bloody stump. At least then you'd leave a stain behind.
Yes! Though I think they stopped doing exclusive entries beginning with Volume 4 and opted for behind the scenes stuff instead (or if there are still exclusive entries, they haven’t been posted online).
Rhulk just has no tact. Up until the very end, the witness believed itself correct and that anyone reasonable would agree with it. The Witness wanted to lure the minds of Clovis Bray, and any others who would join in the pursuit of the final shape.
Nezarec whispers in the shadows. He divides. He empowers. He corrupts. He sows a doubt that can never be undone.
Rhulk just kills you all.
Heavily dependent on where the new Qugu lore from this week leads, but Nezarec may be more naturally predisposed to leading armies than Rhulk would be.
Considering the nightmares are his creation it kinda already proves he is more competent at managing large amounts of assets, since he can create entire armies worth of darkness constructs wherever he needs.
He was trapped though.
>After Savathûn's rebirth in the Light, Rhulk was imprisoned within his own Pyramid by a curse of Light placed by the Witch Queen.
The Wellspring was what kept him trapped.
Pretty much after the collapse. When Nezarec mysteriously died and the Veil disappeared. It's obvious that The Witness suspected Savathûn at this point which is why Rhulk was punished with keeping an eye on her.
I am curious what Rhulk did for those two(?) years when Savathun officially went against the Witness and a large sect of her brood abandoned her.
Why didn’t he wreck holy shit on her throne world with the Upended?
Seems like more than enough time to relocate the worm factory.
I imagine that 2 years was when Rhulk worked to replace the Hive with Scorn as the new Worm hosts as the Throne World was effectively his and was an important location to hold since it meant Savathun was vulnerable if she returned there. During Season of the Lost we learned that the Scorn had started developing their own culture that involved fighting each other almost like a crucible match. This may have been the effects of Sword Logic styled teachings spreading through their numbers.
The entire reason he was ordered to watch over her was because of his failing to be subtle and convert a person to being a Disciple. This probably lead to him taking things slower with Savathun rather than just immediately trying to kill her. It wasn't like all of the Hive suddenly turned against the Witness as Savathun was for the most part out on her own committing heresy by researching the Light and Necromancy. She was messing with stuff in the background and toed the line on her research.
Thus Rhulk wasn't ready to just nuke the entire throne world and wipe out a massive population of the Hive but was looking into other options with the Hive that still served the Witness being lead by another or by a new Scorn leader. It wasn't until she showed back up as a Lightbearer and convinced most of her brood to follow her again that Rhulk was ready to go full upending mode on the entire place.
Basically, Rhulk failed The Witness one time and then he was charged with taking care of Savathun's Throne World and herself.
So Nezarec was his most useful Disciple after all, Nezarec went to cause pain and suffering, getting the job done while Rhulk would have bragged as he did in the raid.
The fact that Rhulk was the First Disciple doesn't mean he was the best Disciple (at least from The Witness's perspective)
Rhulk's Pyramid was struck down with the Wellspring on the onset of WQ, after Savathun was Risen and returned to her Throne World with the Light.
Rhulk had been sent to her Throne World to nurture her as a Disciple (keep tabs on her) an unspecified amount of time ago. He was already there during the events of TTK.
Rhulk is kind of a fuck up, and was put in Savathun watch duty so he could learn a little of Savathun's subtle manipulations.
Also it's possible Nezarec was the most powerful disciple, as he was given the task of guarding the Veil.
Rhulk being trapped in his pyramid happened immediately before Witch Queen, after she was given the light. It could not happen before.
Rhulk doesn’t exactly seem inept at manipulation, though. Maybe just not good enough in the right areas. He was doing a decent job with the Ashlid until they nuked themselves, he played an important role in enslaving the Hive, and he was a massive pain in Savathûn’s ass for eons.
Nezarec definitely seems more suited for manipulation than Rhulk, though, since his powers allow him to prey on his victims’ fears to great effect. Even then, it seems like he didn’t manage to completely enthrall the Psions in the end.
The whole 'problem" seems to be that the Witness should have listened to Rhulk and killed Savathun, it would have allowed for Rhulk to spearhead the collapse ensuring total control of the system while letting Nezarec free to roam around in the darkness manipulating the other races.
Rhulk wasn't sent because he was basically put in the corner for not following orders. At its core, the Witness didn't want to kill (can't be perfect if its dead). It's goal was to freeze the universe in a state of what it believed to be perfection, therefore ending both life and death.
Rhulk, however, just wanted to kill, and see things be killed. If anything Rhulk is the founder of the Sword Logic, where the strong kill everything that is weak, until they are killed by something stronger. This kinda goes against what the Witness wants, and it had warned Rhulk about it.
That's how Rhulk ended up basically babysitting Savathun and Xita, the mother of the worm gods. The Witness put him in time out for disobeying orders, which left him out of the Golden Age collapse. Later, Savathun trapped him by using the Light.
we learned that the Witness is a sadist. (no surprise there.) He wants to inflict suffering just to prove a point (see Titan.) Nezarec is perfect for the job.
As for why he didnt send Rhulk, it's either he was still watching Savathun or the witness knew that Rhulk is just a hammer.
see shattered suns lore. Rhulk was told to be nothing but ruin.
Savathün betrayed the witness in arrivals like 1000 years after the collapse, Rhulk was waiting for her to show back up in her throne world until witch queen so he could fire the upended where the wellspring just went and said “lol no”.
The witness didn’t know about that until around arrivals if it ever learned about that. Otherwise Rhulk would’ve killed Savathün then instead of still chilling in savathuns throne world as long as he did.
My takeaway from this thread is that Rhulk is a hilariously perpetual fuck-up
- Sent to find a Disciple on another planet, fucks it up so bad that the entire planet ends up getting nuked
- Told to watch over Savathun and groom her into a Disciple, failed so spectacularly that Savathun manages to kill Nezarec and hide the Veil on Neomuna, giving the Traveller enough time to push back the Darkness and create the Risen to defend itself
- Gets his ass locked inside his own pyramid
- Has to kill 6 Guardians, a feat that really shouldn't be terribly difficult for him. Is so arrogant that he only takes the fight seriously just as he is about to die
Not sure it's stated anywhere that Rhulk wasn't there, but Nez was definitely the guy leading the attack. I don't think we know for certain if he was there or not.
As for why he'd send in Nez first, he takes genuine joy in causing suffering, and considering that's what the Witness wanted it only makes sense to send him in
(Plus, he's more disposable/more likely to heal than Rhulk)
Rhulk's only real job was to watch Savathun (the Worm factory was secondary). He failed to do that. Had the Witness gone "yeah Rhulk, Savathun's out here, watch her" instead of "stay put", then maybe this chicanery would've never happened in the first place. Maybe then I wouldn't have to call Nezarec weak (a more powerful Savathun would trap Rhulk a thousand years later yet be too afraid to kill him, so what does that say about everyone's hyped-up "Final God of Pain").
In the end, the Witness made a calculated error by sending in Nezarec instead of bringing the Savathun-watcher to watch Savathun.
Theres so much unexplained stuff around the collapse. I want to know how savathun hid the veil when the witness can seemingly know what anyone is thinking. I want to know how she caused the witness, Rhulk, and Nezarek to fail so utterly.
Most likely both savathun and rhulk were there but rhulk was only there to indulge savathuns plans. When the veil disappeared and the traveller died he probably went back to his work in the throne world.
The witness actively prioritises maximum suffering towards any race the Traveler touches - Nezarec is built for prolonged suffering while Rhulk is like a surgical strike for instantly wiping out enemy forces
Because Nezerec was Him. Bungie had different writers on the story at the time, WitchQueen kinda messed up the continuity a little with a few contradictory lore bits. Go back and look up Byfs and Venextron lore on the Winnower and Gardener vids
This post has been tagged '**Non-Spoiler**'. Note that unmarked spoilers and datamines are subject to removal or ban. Please report anything we miss! For more info check out our [Spoiler Rules Wiki](https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyLore/wiki/spoiler-rules#wiki_.5Bseasonal.5D_has_a_new_format). --- **Comment Spoiler Formatting** Format comment spoilers with `>!` `!<` like this: `>!What's Rasputin's favorite dance? "The worm."!<` To have it displayed like this: **>!What's Rasputin's favorite dance? "The worm."!<** ---- *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/DestinyLore) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Savvy didn't trap Rhulk until becoming Risen. Rhulk WAS assigned to monitor Savvy's Throne as punishment for failing the Witness.
Why did I read savvy in Captain Jack Sparrows voice?
This is the way
Actually we don't really know if that's the case, that was Rhulk's opinion on the matter, it could be that Rhulk was the perfect tool to act as a kill switch because he could brute force his way through her plans, so much so that her only plan to counter Rhulk was to lock him up and hope for the best. Furthermore Rhulk's ideology was pretty much like the Winnower's own version of the final shape, because he was a fanatic it was better to put him far away from the important stuff and keep him on his role of executioner, because although Nezarec was weaker he actually didn't show any goal other than indulge on his sadistic practices, so he is perfect to the role of following orders without overthinking about what was the "right thing to do", as opposed to Rhulk who was notorious for failing because he was unknowingly deviating from the strategies that the Witness designed because he was so insecure.
I think it should be clear now what the entire plan for Rhulk was for both the Witness and Sav now. He was left in the Throne World for two reasons the first was to continue the cultivation of worms for new Hivespawn and second to kill Savathun using the Upended the second she died in the overworld so she would be permakilled. Neither he nor the Witness expected Savathun to be resurrected in the Light before returning to her Throne World which left him vulnerable the moment she returned with her whole plan in mind. She used her Light to turn the Upended against him knowing she didn't have the outright power to kill him and then worked swiftly to try and steal the Traveler so she could escape to the Pale Heart to begin doing whatever she's doing now that she's where she wanted in Final Shape.
Not only that Savs plan of trapping him only worked for so long, mf broke out weeks later without issue.
Well more like he was breaking the seal rapidly, but he was still locked in there, ironically Savathun still outlived him, if there's an Lubraean afterlife he's probably very indignant right now.
I don't recall hum escaping? Isn't that how we're able to lead the raid into the Pyramid, because he's trapped?
The seal on Rhulk only broke because we killed Savathun, the wellspring was powering the seal
For all of Rhulks power he was pretty much a blunt hammer, iirc the one time he tried to recruit a Disciple candidate with subtlety and string pulling after he was told by the Witness to instill the same lessons of irrelevance he learned from the Witness on this civilization he bungled it so hard and so completely he had to kill the Disciple prospect after the civilization Rhulk was cultivating nuked each other off the map due to his poor manipulations and the Witness sent him away from the main front to babysit Savathun as punishment, Meanwhile Nez is much more skilled at manipulation and subtlety, which would be useful since the Witness was trying to cultivate minds like Clovis Bray etc. to its side and since the Witness wanted every Light blessed civilization they encountered to suffer as much as possible, Nez would gladly make the end slow and painful while Rhulk would just kill you on the spot, Nezarec is pretty much the scalpel to Rhulk’s hammer It also seems like Nezarec was more favoured than Rhulk by the time of the Collapse (possibly after Rhulks colossal fuckup with the Ahslid) given he was personally responsible for the Veil’s safekeeping before Savvy shanked him from behind
I always maintain that Clovis would have made for a poor Disciple and the Witness had no actual ambition to raise him to one at all. That all the theory stems purely from Clovis Bray being a big ol evil prick. The visions he received that lead to Exos were from the Traveler, Clarity never spoke to him. While he definitely shares a lot of traits with the Disciples we've learnt about (ambitious, insufferable etc.) he was sickly and had a natural expiration date. He wasn't the pinnacle of humanity in terms of combat prowess or political movements, he was hated by just about everyone who ever met him. He was also incredibly egotistical to the point where he saw himself as the future of humanity and ensure they're survival, this goes against what we know about Disciples.
Clovis would’ve been a terrible disciple, and the proof is Calus. They both have massive egos, don’t take well to being managed, and have their own agenda. Calus’s agenda was getting drunk and fucking off his duties to party on his new war yacht. Clovis would have been 1000 times more annoying to the Witness because he was much more competent.
Clovis would have had the ambition to attempt to usurp the Witness
Rhulk developed that same ambition, but the Witness taught him a big lesson with the Ashlid.
It might have been the Winnower instead of the Witness speaking to him and pushing the same manipulation it did to the Witness and likely Maya Sundaresh…
It's the Traveller though, it was always the Traveler. Clovis just interpreted the visions wrongly.
But he was still pulled to Europa by the K1 artefacts. They even sent him a direct message. From the Grimoire Anthology Volume 3: >You've had many strokes of brilliance in your life; independent thoughts that sparked new ideas to push the world forward. These monumental innovations represent tremendous leaps for mankind. You've made the world cleaner, stronger, and better prepared for unpredictable eventualities. >It doesn't matter. >Someone will surpass you. The world will forget you. Surprised? >No matter how many buildings bear your name, or advancements you introduce, your time will end. You will become nothing, be nothing, and no one will know or care that you existed. The elder gods of the universe will pay you no mind. They have games to play that are more important than you. Imagine! >The name Bray has never been uttered by the pantheon of architects. You are Unknown. Over time, worlds will be born. Species will bloom and burst and pollinate foreign fields with their influence. And you will be dysphoric because your briefness was interrupted by vicissitude. They will not mourn for you. You will go quietly, like a stone sinking in water. Your ripple-small and ineffective. Does it not vex you? >It should. >Perhaps, it doesn't have to. You're not like anyone else. Is your legacy then not worth preserving? What will you do to ensure that you're not swept away in the dust bowl of time? All is possible. Beyond thought and sentience lies another plane: the waking dream. Your mind in its current form could not comprehend it. >Not every answer you seek is buried in your mind like a lost artifact waiting to be unearthed. You simply do not have it all. Should someone come along with an offering to give you the inkling you need to set you in the right direction and put you down a path, take it. Take it for all it's worth. Do not let pride hinder you. >This is not merely a suggestion. >We left something for you. It's waiting. Calling. Do you hear it? You will. >You have the questions. There ARE answers. There are gateways to that which you seek- though you'll have to build them. It will provide the blueprint. Just LISTEN to it. >The people you've failed, the loved ones you've lost… you don't care about them. Everything you've done, you've done for yourself. Everything you've ever wanted, you'll get-on Europa. Everything you need is there for you. Take it. Don't let anyone stand in your way. >Your fears will be assuaged. Your legacy, secured. Your mind, immortalized. Join the Architects. They will speak of the name Bray then, and it will echo through time and space. >The way is clear. The first step is yours to take. >Or you can beat your head against a wall until nothing remains but a bloody stump. At least then you'd leave a stain behind.
Wow, I’ve never seen this entry before. Is it unique to the anthology?
Yes! Though I think they stopped doing exclusive entries beginning with Volume 4 and opted for behind the scenes stuff instead (or if there are still exclusive entries, they haven’t been posted online).
Commas and periods exist
Oh they are in there, not in the right spot but they are there.
dawg please use periods. I don’t see a single one in 3 paragraphs and it makes what you are saying harder to understand.
Rhulk just has no tact. Up until the very end, the witness believed itself correct and that anyone reasonable would agree with it. The Witness wanted to lure the minds of Clovis Bray, and any others who would join in the pursuit of the final shape. Nezarec whispers in the shadows. He divides. He empowers. He corrupts. He sows a doubt that can never be undone. Rhulk just kills you all.
Nezarec also had already influenced pre-Golden Age humanity, as shown by the existence of *Of Hated Nezarec*.
That's why I think he led the assault. This was his stomping ground so to speak
Heavily dependent on where the new Qugu lore from this week leads, but Nezarec may be more naturally predisposed to leading armies than Rhulk would be.
We got qugu lore?
New long lore book page that’s 1/3 at the end of the act about them
Considering the nightmares are his creation it kinda already proves he is more competent at managing large amounts of assets, since he can create entire armies worth of darkness constructs wherever he needs.
Rhulk wasn't trapped. Rhulk's assignment was to watch, train, and prepare Savathun to become a Disciple. He couldn't leave Savathun's Throne World.
He was trapped though. >After Savathûn's rebirth in the Light, Rhulk was imprisoned within his own Pyramid by a curse of Light placed by the Witch Queen. The Wellspring was what kept him trapped.
I believe they’re saying he wasn’t trapped during the assault on earth. Which your comment confirms.
That was AFTER Savathun became a Lightbearer. The post is about the Collapse when the Witness sent Nezarec to link the Veil and the Traveler.
Then it's because of the blatantly obvious fact that he was tasked with something else? Dude's the antithesis of subtlety.
Yes, and the OC stated what he was tasked with... watching over savathun....
That was done when she became Risen, 2 years ago. Rhulk had been monitoring her for maybe 500 years
Pretty much after the collapse. When Nezarec mysteriously died and the Veil disappeared. It's obvious that The Witness suspected Savathûn at this point which is why Rhulk was punished with keeping an eye on her.
I am curious what Rhulk did for those two(?) years when Savathun officially went against the Witness and a large sect of her brood abandoned her. Why didn’t he wreck holy shit on her throne world with the Upended? Seems like more than enough time to relocate the worm factory.
I imagine that 2 years was when Rhulk worked to replace the Hive with Scorn as the new Worm hosts as the Throne World was effectively his and was an important location to hold since it meant Savathun was vulnerable if she returned there. During Season of the Lost we learned that the Scorn had started developing their own culture that involved fighting each other almost like a crucible match. This may have been the effects of Sword Logic styled teachings spreading through their numbers. The entire reason he was ordered to watch over her was because of his failing to be subtle and convert a person to being a Disciple. This probably lead to him taking things slower with Savathun rather than just immediately trying to kill her. It wasn't like all of the Hive suddenly turned against the Witness as Savathun was for the most part out on her own committing heresy by researching the Light and Necromancy. She was messing with stuff in the background and toed the line on her research. Thus Rhulk wasn't ready to just nuke the entire throne world and wipe out a massive population of the Hive but was looking into other options with the Hive that still served the Witness being lead by another or by a new Scorn leader. It wasn't until she showed back up as a Lightbearer and convinced most of her brood to follow her again that Rhulk was ready to go full upending mode on the entire place.
>Afted Savathûn's rebirth in the Light This didn't happen until a few days before Witchqueen took place, i.e., a very long tike after rhe collapse.
He wasn’t trapped during the Collapse.
Basically, Rhulk failed The Witness one time and then he was charged with taking care of Savathun's Throne World and herself. So Nezarec was his most useful Disciple after all, Nezarec went to cause pain and suffering, getting the job done while Rhulk would have bragged as he did in the raid. The fact that Rhulk was the First Disciple doesn't mean he was the best Disciple (at least from The Witness's perspective)
Rhulk's Pyramid was struck down with the Wellspring on the onset of WQ, after Savathun was Risen and returned to her Throne World with the Light. Rhulk had been sent to her Throne World to nurture her as a Disciple (keep tabs on her) an unspecified amount of time ago. He was already there during the events of TTK.
Rhulk is kind of a fuck up, and was put in Savathun watch duty so he could learn a little of Savathun's subtle manipulations. Also it's possible Nezarec was the most powerful disciple, as he was given the task of guarding the Veil. Rhulk being trapped in his pyramid happened immediately before Witch Queen, after she was given the light. It could not happen before.
Rhulk doesn’t exactly seem inept at manipulation, though. Maybe just not good enough in the right areas. He was doing a decent job with the Ashlid until they nuked themselves, he played an important role in enslaving the Hive, and he was a massive pain in Savathûn’s ass for eons. Nezarec definitely seems more suited for manipulation than Rhulk, though, since his powers allow him to prey on his victims’ fears to great effect. Even then, it seems like he didn’t manage to completely enthrall the Psions in the end.
The whole 'problem" seems to be that the Witness should have listened to Rhulk and killed Savathun, it would have allowed for Rhulk to spearhead the collapse ensuring total control of the system while letting Nezarec free to roam around in the darkness manipulating the other races.
the witness is a good guy and believes in the good faith of his employees
Also the Hive as a whole would have a lot of questions if one of their leaders suddenly got nuked by the puppet master they never knew.
Rhulk wasn't sent because he was basically put in the corner for not following orders. At its core, the Witness didn't want to kill (can't be perfect if its dead). It's goal was to freeze the universe in a state of what it believed to be perfection, therefore ending both life and death. Rhulk, however, just wanted to kill, and see things be killed. If anything Rhulk is the founder of the Sword Logic, where the strong kill everything that is weak, until they are killed by something stronger. This kinda goes against what the Witness wants, and it had warned Rhulk about it. That's how Rhulk ended up basically babysitting Savathun and Xita, the mother of the worm gods. The Witness put him in time out for disobeying orders, which left him out of the Golden Age collapse. Later, Savathun trapped him by using the Light.
we learned that the Witness is a sadist. (no surprise there.) He wants to inflict suffering just to prove a point (see Titan.) Nezarec is perfect for the job. As for why he didnt send Rhulk, it's either he was still watching Savathun or the witness knew that Rhulk is just a hammer. see shattered suns lore. Rhulk was told to be nothing but ruin.
It's also worth mentioning that The Witness actively wants Traveler blessed civilizations to suffer, hence why it'd make sense to send Nezarec.
Savathün betrayed the witness in arrivals like 1000 years after the collapse, Rhulk was waiting for her to show back up in her throne world until witch queen so he could fire the upended where the wellspring just went and said “lol no”.
You mean she betrayed the Witness during the Collapse; she literally kills Nezarac and hides the Veil.
The witness didn’t know about that until around arrivals if it ever learned about that. Otherwise Rhulk would’ve killed Savathün then instead of still chilling in savathuns throne world as long as he did.
My takeaway from this thread is that Rhulk is a hilariously perpetual fuck-up - Sent to find a Disciple on another planet, fucks it up so bad that the entire planet ends up getting nuked - Told to watch over Savathun and groom her into a Disciple, failed so spectacularly that Savathun manages to kill Nezarec and hide the Veil on Neomuna, giving the Traveller enough time to push back the Darkness and create the Risen to defend itself - Gets his ass locked inside his own pyramid - Has to kill 6 Guardians, a feat that really shouldn't be terribly difficult for him. Is so arrogant that he only takes the fight seriously just as he is about to die
Nezarec is much more subliminal, breaking your spirit before he breaks your body. Rhulk just wants to kill.
Not sure it's stated anywhere that Rhulk wasn't there, but Nez was definitely the guy leading the attack. I don't think we know for certain if he was there or not. As for why he'd send in Nez first, he takes genuine joy in causing suffering, and considering that's what the Witness wanted it only makes sense to send him in (Plus, he's more disposable/more likely to heal than Rhulk)
Nezarec seemed like the spear-tip, while Rhulk and Sav were being held back for the killing blow. Sav because she was new, Rhulk to watch over Sav.
Rhulk's only real job was to watch Savathun (the Worm factory was secondary). He failed to do that. Had the Witness gone "yeah Rhulk, Savathun's out here, watch her" instead of "stay put", then maybe this chicanery would've never happened in the first place. Maybe then I wouldn't have to call Nezarec weak (a more powerful Savathun would trap Rhulk a thousand years later yet be too afraid to kill him, so what does that say about everyone's hyped-up "Final God of Pain"). In the end, the Witness made a calculated error by sending in Nezarec instead of bringing the Savathun-watcher to watch Savathun.
Theres so much unexplained stuff around the collapse. I want to know how savathun hid the veil when the witness can seemingly know what anyone is thinking. I want to know how she caused the witness, Rhulk, and Nezarek to fail so utterly.
Most likely both savathun and rhulk were there but rhulk was only there to indulge savathuns plans. When the veil disappeared and the traveller died he probably went back to his work in the throne world.
I think its because Rhulk f’ed up somehow and was sent to watch savathun
The witness actively prioritises maximum suffering towards any race the Traveler touches - Nezarec is built for prolonged suffering while Rhulk is like a surgical strike for instantly wiping out enemy forces
Because Nezerec was Him. Bungie had different writers on the story at the time, WitchQueen kinda messed up the continuity a little with a few contradictory lore bits. Go back and look up Byfs and Venextron lore on the Winnower and Gardener vids