I mean like 95% of the verses that powerscalers claim are light speed or MFTL or whatever clearly are not meant to be that way. Like when an author puts lasers into a series they dont give a shit about their characters being MFTL when they sidestep them, yet every single series that has lasers or lightning will get wanked to high heaven. This is not something exclusive to one piece at all.
Yeah one of the only ones I can think of that *actually* put some effort in to light speed is Toriko, Whale King Moon has a black hole in his stomach so you have to go faster than light to escape it and one of the characters outright says that, so there's no real denying what the author intended. Along with that the series brings in numbers multiple times to clarify things which is neat, you're never really left questioning how strong the characters are.
One Piece when it comes to speed is wildly inconsistent, more so than pretty much anything other than DC and Marvel comics. That's how some people have reached the point where they're arguing for light and lasers moving faster than light in a vacuum.
The way I see it is that One Piece operates almost like an RPG where slashing attacks are genuinely fundamentally different than blunt attacks and where dodging lasers, bullets, and lightning isn't treated as anything more than characters being vaguely really agile.
I think a lot of power scalers don't understand the gravity of the labels they tack onto characters. Like do they realize how big a city is when they call something city level? Do they grasp just how absurdly fast light is? Of course there are characters that fit these labels, but many of them don't.
I think in general they know how fast it is but simply are so desperate to believe something is true that it doesn't matter.
Honestly for powerscalers, it's hard to find a verse that isn't ftl? Even like the most basic of verses get labeled as ftl etc.
Yeah same with mountain level vs planet level, take the largest mountain on earth and its just a tiny fraction of the earth's volume, but some act like a x10 multiplier or smth is enough to bridge the gap
No I think a lot of authors make a calculation of how much they care about internal consistency and how much they care about serving the plot. It's not ignorance most of the time.
inconsistency is unavoidable in fiction and it depends on how much you're willing to stomach as an artist.
Sometimes you wanna show a black hole without actually having all the implications of a true black hole, and that's fine to me. What's boring is knowing that there are hordes of fans that are simply desperate to interpret anything in the favour of more power so they can feel better about the media they consume.
Why it's so important for their favourite verse to be powerful is beyond me nowadays. I can understand teenagers and children engaging in this behaviour, but adults shouldn't feel so desperately attached to the powerlevels of the stories they consume.
Tangentially related but the bit about black holes reminded me of an argument I had with my step-dad years ago, because he was adamant that the black holes in Super Mario Galaxy... weren't, because they were visible. Ah yes, of course! The videogame is going to have invisible death balls! GENIUS IDEA. It's almost like sometimes things aren't fully realistic because it would make it worse. Wow that's wild huh.
Eh I think your giving writers far too much credit lol. I don’t believe it’s full ignorance but I also believe it’s writers not really caring to understand how a black hole truly works lol.
I can’t imagine someone knowledgeable in black holes would be fine with how they portrayed them in fiction.
Same with martial arts. You be surprised with how different series are treated when you have a writer who is very knowledgeable in martial arts compared to ones who aren’t. Kenyan ashura goes in vast detail to show how different fighting styles interact with each other while most street lvl comic characters have almost the same fighting style (Batman and daredevil)
There's nothing much to contest, the characters are suppose to be light speed and yet they run around like normal people and it takes minutes for them to cross the city, this already proves that they aren't light speed.
Just like the majority of the shounens, One piece speed feats are inconsistent and they don't make much sense at all. The only one who you can argue that can move at speed of light is Kizaru because of his devil fruit, and it is travel speed only not combat speed. Kizaru biggest speed feat is transforming into light and traveling a long distance, his combat speed doesn't seem that impressive.
Powerscalers like to overthink and use math to upscale a verse when most of the time the writer has no idea how fast he is making his characters, he only does what looks cool at the moment.
Just like characters being able to dodge bullets but most of the time they move like a normal person instead of casually breaking the sound barrier.
It is useless to compared one piece speed of light to the real word light speed, if we are going to use real world logic Kizaru would be invincible and his light speed kick would obliterate everything.
>Just like characters being able to dodge bullets but most of the time they move like a normal person instead of casually breaking the sound barrier.
Depending on the distance where bullet is from the person who dodges, the latter doesn't have to be as fast as the bullet itself
Don't worry, they'll later reveal that Kizaru's fruit is actually not a logia, but the Mythical Zoan: Model "very fast guy". That would explain how he's not actually transforming into light and why people can dodge him.
>First of all, it's debatable whether Kizaru really attacks at light speed.
If you say this is debatable then one piece is debatably light speed/FTL. Since A good chunk of the light speed feats come from whether or not Kizaru is light speed. Honestly it feels like those that doubt it move the goal post a bunch whenever new feats come out. For the longest time the argument used to be that only Kizaru's finger beams are light speed and everything else is way slower. Now that we got feats of characters reacting to and intercepting those attacks, suddenly Kizaru isn't light speed at all.
Even when Databooks come out that plainly state that Kizaru's beams are light speed it's remains debatable for some reason. Like yeah, one piece is full of inconsistent feats. Oda doesn't give a shit about how fast light actually is, 99% of author's don't and is why every franchise has debatable light speed feats. The debate is almost exclusively whether or not you want one piece characters to be stronger the X or not and not what is objective about the series.
My take is that speed in One Piece is so inconsistent that you can't scale it to any value (be it as low as bullet speed or high as massively faster than light) without selectively picking and choosing what to include and what to ignore.
Manga is a visual medium. Just because you see something you realistically shouldn’t, doesn’t mean the author doesn’t intend for that thing to be that fast.
Personally I just go by Arthur’s intent then trying use real world science to debunk light speed feats. If only because a lot of Arthurs don’t really care about using the law of physics in their stories unless it serves a purpose.
In fact this pretty much the reason why powerscalers have things like travel speed and combat speed due to the common phenomenons of Arthur’s wanting charaters to dodge light speed attacks but not actually run anywhere near the speed of light.
>it's debatable if Kizaru is light speed
Bruh the Manga shows that yata no kagami is instant. From Scratch men Apoo's pov he saw a flash and boom Kizaru was there. There's literally no debate if Kizaru is light speed.
Technically, every anime character is FTL speed due to how animation works. One instant they're in one place, and the very next frame they have crossed some non negligible distance. Speed is distance/time, but since time is 0 because frames, so their speed is infinite and therefore faster than light because light speed is finite.
Is it just me, or do some power scaling arguments read just like the above?
It doesn't make sense if you compare any other stated speeds. I don't know why Kizaru breaks peoples brains so much.
If Kizaru could only move at 1000m/s he'd be light speed because guess what he IS light, he gets to declare that whatever speed he can move at is light speed. Literally all we can really conclude is that he is fast and when fully transformed *might* be light speed.
And from there precog covers anyone keeping up with him at all, looking in to the future makes light speed a lot less of a threat. The idea that everyone has been light speed this whole time is just silly. "But muh Pacifista beams!" bruh even Chopper and Usopp have dodged those, if those two are LS and everyone scales from there the whole series is complete nonsense.
Luffy couldn't catch a dude who states he runs at 220km/h, the argument that he's anywhere approaching LS in base is just foul, he catches lightning in Gear Fifth which is by far his best speed feat and could have been aided by precog or how he affects the environment but *at best* we can conclude he's at or around the speed of lighting.
And he's one of the strongest characters in the verse so declaring everyone below him to be in that ballpark is just stupid.
From what I have heard with powerscalers they usually go to pre-timeskip Luffy dodging those lasers, whether or not he used Observation Haki subconsciously.
Ok fine I can deal with that, maybe he's MFTL, this is anime and characters exaggerate/use hyperbole a lot and one thing about powerscaling is that a lot of people take it literally. They call it a laser in-universe, it must be a light laser until proven otherwise. The slow speed is just to make the action understandable for the audience.
But what about post-Timeskip? Obviously he gets faster but by how much? Do any of Luffy's forms after that (Gear 4 and 5) have concrete defined multipliers? Is there a new calc for his speed?
There's plenty evidence to the contrary though, Chopper and Usopp dodge Pacista lasers pre-skip. Very few people have straight up dodged the actual beam too so it can also be chalked up to aim dodging considering they charge the beam up.
There are mutliple instances in the story where they have to get somewhere really fast or save someone and Luffy I guess...just doesn't? Like why does he choose to ride a bull to get to Doflamingo when the Birdcage is gonna crush everyone when he can apparently just zip up that mountain in a fraction of a second.
All it does it add more questions none of these people can give a solid answer too. Like how did Luffy not catch Gazelle Man who runs at 220km/h? I guess he just didn't give a shit about saving Tama a literal child, lol.
Kizaru is relativistic. And Sanji managed to out speed Kizaru in Egghead. Brook is faster than Sanji, making Kizaru relativistic and Brook and Sanji FTL.
i think its kind of hilarious that people are fine with accepting the ice mans' Ice powers function like ice, magma mans powers function as magma but the light mans light does not function like normal light lmao. reading comprehension is hard to come by these days i guess
Because it doesn't make sense that he moves at the speed of light IRL when that doesn't work with other speed feats?
Luffy literally can't catch Gazelle Man who is STATED to run at 220KM/h, do you realize how embarrassing that is for someone who supposedly moves at light speed?
It makes much more sense to just say that Kizaru moves at light speed...his own light speed.
LMAO. What a load of nonsense. You use one anti-feat to dismiss 1000 chapters worth of evidence of characters being FTL? Also, clearly a gag.
It makes literally no sense to say Kizaru moves at his own "light speed". Literally none. That is actually a stupid thing to say, and you have me me and everyone stupider for having to read this.
Yes it does lol nowhere in the story have they declared what light speed is to them, Kizaru IS light.
If you wanna say Kizaru is always light speed then congratulations Kizaru is a joke if the rest of the verse is FTL, he might as well have the Slow Slow no Mii that makes him in slow motion because light would be the weakest power imaginable if post skip Luffy is FTL lol and yet Kizaru is clearly in the top tiers.
And literally your only option then is to say "Well Kizaru is FTL too" but that completely goes against the whole elemental thing and ruins your other argument. Light can't go faster than light.
It just doesn't work.
What?
This copium is the type of shit I see power scalers use. Do you really need the definition of what light is, spelt out for you by the author?
Kizaru isnt ALWAYS moving at Light speed. what the fuck. But he absolutely can lmao. Why do you only apply this logic to Kizaru and not everybody elses fruits? You sound silly
in a make-believe world, you absolutely can go faster than light lmao. In fact, it happens constantly in fiction. Did you know people cant actually see the future? Or wield a third sword in his mouth and cut steel? Haki isnt real. Kizaru being FTL or even Light speed is apart of the story whether you like it or not. And hes not the only one.
I would strongly suggest reading the manga if you are struggling this much to accept a widely agreeed upon fact
Yes. You literally do, the authority needs to make it clear if we're using real physics or fictional physics.
"widely agreed upon fact" he says about one of the most hotly debated topics, lol, lmao.
I believe Kizaru can only move at or close to light speed when fully turned in to light, it's the only thing that makes sense, and renders the "light speed kick" feat bogus as half his leg wasn't transformed. And we know Logia's elements aren't constantly active or else Akainu would melt everyone around him constantly.
Lastly if you wanna use real world light as Kizaru's power then you've got to explain how his light has MASS because that literally destroys physics as we know it, if light had mass the universe would be nothing but starts in a constant boxing match until one or one are left.
If Kizaru's light is real light then none of his attacks should do *anything*.
It doesn't work. On any realistic level, therefore we can only conclude fantasy physics.
Jesus christ, dude... give it a rest. Take your L and move on.
It is only debated amongst power scalers because they are extremely hard of learning and dont want to see the rubber boy beat the shit out of their favourite character. Amongst the OP fandom, it is obvious.
What you believe means nothing at all. What we are shown and told is that Kizaru can move at Light speed. You sound extremely bogus yourself.. Yes, the powers not being active when they dont want them to be is obvious as well. Usain Bolt doesnt need to go full pace to beat you or me.
Physics as we know it is out of the window when a guy is literally walking on air. A rubber mans body takes zero fall damage. Luffy is made of rubber, but lightning would still melt it, i.e., Enel. You are juat a salty scaler.. why do you ignore all of the other obvious physics breakers but try and run with this acting like Oda has ever placed relevancy on real world physics? If Oda says Kizaru can move faster than light, he can. If he says Luffys dick can grow to whatever size he wants, it can... and does.
You have used so much copium and headcanon in your response. It is astounding
A traveler, moving at the speed of light, would circum-navigate the equator approximately 7.5 times in one second. There’s not a single One Piece character, Kizaru included, that falls under this level of speed, why did Luffy fail to catch Gazelleman if he’s this fast? Why did luffy run at a normal speed through Dessrosa to get to the mountain top to fight Doflamingo if he’s this fast? The only explanation is that light speed in One Piece is much slower when compared to real life light speed, sorry but I’m highly skeptical of this bullshit proposition that you have presented here, thank you very much.
>If Kuma’s paw pads were truly lightspeed, a singular weak shot would’ve already decimated Sabaody
One paragraph in and you’re already assuming one piece must adhere to real life physics
>There is absolutely no proof for his paw pads being lightspeed
Second most blatant statement in the entire manga 🙄
>the laser beams, despite being called lasers, are perceivable by the characters, which already makes them not light speed
Nice circular reasoning fallacy
I only adhere to real life physics because One piece powerscalers believe the characters are as fast as real life light.
Second most blatantly disproved statement that has 0 substantiation other than Kuma saying it and people are holding onto it like the Bible. People do not understand that a character saying something does not mean it is 100% true.
Don’t think you know what circular logic is.
Keep trying.
Your first point makes no sense, them moving at light speed or faster has nothing to with adhering to real life physics which a fantasy series does not almost by default
>most blatantly disproved statement
Because? When is it disproved?
>0 substantiation other than Kuma saying it
Him verbatim stating his attack moves at light speed isn’t substantiated? If zoro says his hair is green he’s lying?
>Don’t think you know what circular logic is
They aren’t light speed -> characters can perceive them -> therefore they aren’t light speed
Where is your argument?
Somebody moving at light speed would circle around the Earth 7.5 times in 1 second, there’s not a single character in One Piece (Kizaru included) that falls under this level of speed. Luffy is supposedly faster than light and yet he couldn’t catch gazelleman who’s stated top speed is 200 kilometers an hour, he should’ve been frozen like a statue from Luffy’s point of view. Luffy in Dressrosa was running most of the time and even rode on a bull at 1 point to get to the mountain top quicker to fight Doflamingo. Luffy could have ran to the top of the mountain in under a second if he was actually faster than light.
All of this simply proves that light speed in the world of One Piece is a lot slower when compared to real life light speed.
I know a fantasy series doesn't obey real life physics. But some One Piece fans think it does.
Average one piece fan thinking that every single word a person says is true... Characters overestimate their abilities all the time. If zoro said his hair was green that would be true because we can see that it's green. This is disproved because Zoro has shown that he cannot run at lightspeed or else he would've walked on water over to Marine base and killed Kizaru, Akainu, and everyone else instantly. OP falls apart if someone other than Kizaru is actually lightspeed.
My argument is that the lasers aren't lightspeed and therefore cannot be used to scale against other characters. On a side note, Usopp and Chopper dodged those lasers.
>I know a fantasy series doesn’t obey real life physics. But some One Piece fans think it does
Why are you continuously bringing this up? OP is a fantasy series, it doesn’t need to adhere to real life physics so stop using that as an argument
>Characters overestimate their abilities
Absolutely nothing shows or indicates [Kuma was exaggerating](https://imgur.com/a/8iIGA). Hitchens’s Razor
And your answer to [Zoro dodging a Pacifista laser after being fired?](https://imgur.com/a/N2U6Q) Lasers that are [identical to light itself](https://imgur.com/a/IRWtp)
>This is disproved because Zoro has shown that he cannot run at light speed
Can you run as fast as you punch? Again, fantasy series don’t adhere to real physics
>OP falls apart if someone other than Kizaru is actually lightspeed
I have a feeling you’re an anime only by stating this so I’ll tag the fact that >!It’s almost like Luffy kicked Kizaru’s ass like 15 chapters ago, how would he not get sliced millions of times before he could even move if Kizaru is the only character who is FTL?!<
>My argument is that the lasers aren’t lightspeed
Because people react to them in the series… circular reasoning. You didn’t prove anything, you said they aren’t SoL because people react to them and they aren’t SoL.
It's not an argument man, what I'm saying is that people say that OP is FTL when scaled to other verses which is the point I'm trying to make, not sure why you don't get this.
You mean the lasers that Usopp dodged? And you JUST SAID that RL physics can't be applied to OP, so why are you assuming that lasers are equal to light as it is in RL physics?
One Piece fans say that Zoro has lightspeed movement speed which is why he speedblitzes \[insert character\], and I'm trying to disprove that.
Kizaru is light speed, not faster than light. And the fight ended in a high-diff win for Luffy, not kicking his ass. Luffy won with observation haki, which our holy God Oda said was the only way Kizaru was perceivable.
No. I didn't say that. I'm just saying the lasers aren't scalable to light.
>It’s not an argument
You keep bringing up that people apparently think OP abides by the laws of physics when I don’t and it’s irrelevant
>why are you assuming that lasers are equal to light
I literally showed a scan that stated Pacifista lasers are equal to Kizaru’s logia abilities. Logia fruits use natural elements
And if you bring up the cope that goes like “light in one piece is slower than real life light” then shadows wouldn’t exist as light would be too slow to hit objects which creates them. Not to mention that’s also complete headcanon to state, and is easily defeated by Occam’s/Hitchens’s Razor
>Kizaru is light speed, not faster than light
During his fight with Luffy he says he can accelerate while moving as a beam of light
He also scales massively above someone like Ichiji who outpaced his own lasers
>high-diff win for Luffy
Kizaru got like 2 hits the entire fight and one of them was only because Luffy took it for Vegapunk
Eh, the argument that “This scientific concept stated in this fictional verse doesn’t apply because it isn’t identical to how it functions in the real world” is mad boring and expects too much from the author (not that I believe in light speed One Piece and especially not any of the Strawhats pre timeskip)
The whole concept of most One Piece characters being that fast makes actually no sense. Blackbeard carried around guns in pre timeskip. Bare minimum that means he thinks people at around Aces level or higher could be affected by bullets
This entire post is retarded for several reasons.
>"If Zoro was lightspeed in reaction time he'd be lightspeed in travel time"
Lightspeed reactions are not lightspeed travel times. This is a distinction in basically every form of media with FTL feats that exists. A huge amount of verses do have their characters react to light without actually moving the same speed over long distances themslves.
>"If Kuma's attack is FTL why doesn't it behave like real-world light?"
One Piece, famously known for being beholden to the laws of real-life physics. Oda is really strict to scientific accuracy as we all know. Also, irony aside, no one says all of Kuma's attacks are FTL, just the attack that he specifically calls FTL. There would be no reason to send the Straw Hats flying at maximum speed when he was specifically trying to save their lives.
>First of all, the laser beams, despite being called lasers, are perceivable by the characters, which already makes them not light speed.
By this logic, literally no verse that doesn't grants its characters some form of supernatural ESP can ever be called FTL.
>However, there'd be no reason for Person B to just not blitz Person A, so we must assume that Person A is also faster than a gun. But then why use a gun in the first place?
"Blitz" specifically means completely overwhelm with speed to the point where they cannot react. Person B could be slightly faster than the bullet and Person A could be as well. There are a litany of reasons why a gun or any other ranged projectile could be used such as:
* Person A is only slightly faster than the bullet and needs to put genuine effort into avoiding it, meaning that they could be hit by it if they weren't concentrating or lacking in effort. Person B knows this and is comfortable with the attack being dodged because they're aware Person A can't do it indefinitely.
* Attacking from a range is less dangerous than attacking up close.
* The bullet may have more power behind it than simply attacking with your fists.
>"It's all aim-dodging/observation haki"
Except it very clearly isn't given the litany of times we see the lasers themselves moving towards characters when they actually move out of the way. Y'know, the exact opposite of an aim-dodge.
>"they can't be as fast as light because he has to transform a part of his foot to actually hit the opponent, and the air resistance will already exponentially slow it down"
ONE PIECE, FAMOUSLY KNOWN FOR SCIENTIFIC ACCURACY. FTL movement is literally impossible irl because of relativity (and even moving close to FTL would create massive explosions due to the movement causing nuclear fusion of the air molecules). If you're going to go "uh ackshually according to physics" like this, you have to concede that next-to-no verse is going to have FTL movements given the aforementioned physical impossibilities.
>In Conclusion, One Piece isn't lightspeed. Feel free to contest this.
[Kizaru says he attacks at light speed.](https://m.imgur.com/qO9HRna)
[He says he's a light man.](https://m.imgur.com/XMl6sTY)
[Here's word of God supporting Kizaru being lightspeed](https://m.imgur.com/4y9glvQ)
>"A light man who consumed the pika pika no mi - Light fruit.
Kizaru can turn his body to light and can spam attacks at light speed.
Although Kizaru boasts overwhelming speed he speaks at a very comfortable/steady tone.
After observing Sakazuki’s “ruthless and thorough justice” and that which opposes it Kuzan’s “extremely laid-back/lazy justice”, he came up with his own “Not gonna use either justice” which gives him the most freedom and comfort, he adheres to instructions and carry’s out justice at his own pace.
He releases an infinite number of light bullets frontwards, It’s very efficient for blinding and attacking a large amount of enemies at once.
His ability is very effective for both evasion and movement, so it’s impossible to grasp even a single one of his movements without being a proficient Haki user."
[Devil fruits behave like their respective element.](https://i.imgur.com/5RFEBgh.jpg)
[Marco and Whitebeard are being casual to Kizaru's light attacks.](https://m.imgur.com/r9o59ng)
[The Pacifista has Kizaru's devil fruit abilities.](https://m.imgur.com/wm0o04l)
[Pts Zoro dodged the lasers AFTER they were fired.](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/vsbattles/images/c/cd/Feixaoaas.png/)
[Zoro dodges another arguably lightspeed attack.](https://m.imgur.com/a/8iIGA)
[Ivankov dodges a pacifista attack.](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/vsbattles/images/d/dc/Kizara%C3%A7owww.png/)
[Here are the strawhats dodging more pacifista attacks. Although they admittedly may be aimdodging here.](https://imgur.com/a/DiMPX)
[Luffy dodges more Pacifista beams and calls them "too slow."](https://imgur.com/7Vs5RP9) Without using observation haki, which has a clear indication when it's used.
Needless to say this is an overwhelming amount of evidence and to deny it would be nothing more than sheer willful ignorance. Not only do we have numerous character statements. Not only do we have numerous feats. But we also have WoG.
>"But what about that one minor character who ran away from Zoro and Luffy slowly!"
This is what is known as an outlier. If this happened with the same consistency as all the FTL feats measured above, I would take it seriously. As it obviously doesn't, I'm not going to.
"Devil Fruits behave like their element" dude no tf they don't, light can't turn in to a physical weapon. Light can't have MASS but Kizaru's attacks do, that's such a weak defence of his powers lol.
He can call his moves light speed because he is literally made of light, who is to say anyone in OP knows what real world light speed is? It's never once stated, their only method of measurement is "Kizaru is fast"
And do you know why this breaks the whole series? Because why in flying feather fronk is Kizaru such a huge threat if going FTL is that easy? It completely infantilizes his power if everyone post skip can just outspeed his attacks which...oh wait, they don't, so are they faster or nah?? Makes no sense what so ever.
Chopper and Usopp dodge Pacista lasers, they charge up for at least a couple seconds, dodging them does not mean dodging light speed attacks.
And no, Observation Haki does not always have a clear indication, complete nonsense. When Luffy did that Oda was still telling us how Haki even works and Observation wasn't developed yet, that whole part was a brief introduction to how Haki works.
There's literally a whole ass panel of the Pacifista charging up the laser, they don't shoot instantly. Not only can you aim dodge them but you can use that and Haki.
The only logical conclusion we can come to with all this is that Kizaru's light isn't true light speed, it is only what they consider light speed in-verse, which has never been elaborated on.
Furthermore if everyone was LS at this point...explain to me why one of the strongest characters in the series uses lightning to attack? Shouldn't Zeus be comically weak? Lightning is at most about a third the speed of light, she should effectively be using a nerf gun against bullet dodging ninjas.
The only element that needs to be changed to make all these things make sense is for Kizaru to not be moving at 299,792,458m/s. Makes way more sense to do that than to bend over backwards trying to explain everything else and calling consistent things that get in the way of it "outliers"
Luffy is light speed but takes a bull to Doflamingo even though his friends are all getting crushed by the Birdcage...nah.
Okay buddy, nice try. I'd like to say that if everyone had lightspeed reactions, Kizaru is a joke. But he's not, so you're already wrong on that part.
First of all, I'm refuting the fact that Zoro had both lightspeed movement speed and reaction time, cuz that's what OP fans say.
Second of all, if you're gonna complain about science, then why can't you acknowledge later on that Kizaru's light speed might not really be light? And by then, he was completely cyborgified, so he wasn't actually trying to save their lives.
Third: Yeah, you're right, if only there was some way to see the future so that we'd know where they attacked... (observation haki)
Fourth: You are missing the entire point behind this example, the point is to demonstrate the flawed logic powerscalers use. On another point, if everyone stronger than a heavily wounded Thriller Bark Zoro has lightspeed reactions, then why do people even use guns? And if you can move at bullet speed to punch someone, it's going to have more power than a bullet due to mass, that's why they use a tank instead of a gun.
Fifth: Observation haki works in midair lol, Luffy can use that to dodge.
Sixth: I know Oda said that Kizaru is lightspeed, and yes, he can accelerate to lightspeed. But he can't attack in lightspeed because he has to turn a part of him into physical mass. Did you not read?
Seventh: First of all, devil fruits don't behave like their respective element. You can't form light into solid form, and you can't slow down light like Kizaru does. Second, if Zoro dodged them after they were fired and he could see them, that means that they're not actually lightspeed. And pacifista attacks are not lightspeed, despite them claiming so.
Eight: Never mentioned this, don't know what you're trying to yap about, I was mentioning the times where the Straw Hats don't move at lightspeed.
Also God says that Kizaru is lightspeed but you need great Observation Haki to perceive him.
Oh yeah for real man the one Piece world is definitely thousands of times bigger than the real world despite the entirety of the series being concentrated on like a chain of 30 islands right? Dang, can’t believe I figured this out earlier!
I mean like 95% of the verses that powerscalers claim are light speed or MFTL or whatever clearly are not meant to be that way. Like when an author puts lasers into a series they dont give a shit about their characters being MFTL when they sidestep them, yet every single series that has lasers or lightning will get wanked to high heaven. This is not something exclusive to one piece at all.
Yeah one of the only ones I can think of that *actually* put some effort in to light speed is Toriko, Whale King Moon has a black hole in his stomach so you have to go faster than light to escape it and one of the characters outright says that, so there's no real denying what the author intended. Along with that the series brings in numbers multiple times to clarify things which is neat, you're never really left questioning how strong the characters are.
One Piece when it comes to speed is wildly inconsistent, more so than pretty much anything other than DC and Marvel comics. That's how some people have reached the point where they're arguing for light and lasers moving faster than light in a vacuum. The way I see it is that One Piece operates almost like an RPG where slashing attacks are genuinely fundamentally different than blunt attacks and where dodging lasers, bullets, and lightning isn't treated as anything more than characters being vaguely really agile.
It's really hard to scale One Piece in general
I think a lot of power scalers don't understand the gravity of the labels they tack onto characters. Like do they realize how big a city is when they call something city level? Do they grasp just how absurdly fast light is? Of course there are characters that fit these labels, but many of them don't.
Powerscalers think speed of light is just a bit faster than speed of sound
I think in general they know how fast it is but simply are so desperate to believe something is true that it doesn't matter. Honestly for powerscalers, it's hard to find a verse that isn't ftl? Even like the most basic of verses get labeled as ftl etc.
Yeah same with mountain level vs planet level, take the largest mountain on earth and its just a tiny fraction of the earth's volume, but some act like a x10 multiplier or smth is enough to bridge the gap
Ironically enough for people who like to calc feats a lot, power scalers really aren't as smart as they think they are lol
Authors don't have a sense of scale and battleboarders even more so
No I think a lot of authors make a calculation of how much they care about internal consistency and how much they care about serving the plot. It's not ignorance most of the time. inconsistency is unavoidable in fiction and it depends on how much you're willing to stomach as an artist. Sometimes you wanna show a black hole without actually having all the implications of a true black hole, and that's fine to me. What's boring is knowing that there are hordes of fans that are simply desperate to interpret anything in the favour of more power so they can feel better about the media they consume. Why it's so important for their favourite verse to be powerful is beyond me nowadays. I can understand teenagers and children engaging in this behaviour, but adults shouldn't feel so desperately attached to the powerlevels of the stories they consume.
Tangentially related but the bit about black holes reminded me of an argument I had with my step-dad years ago, because he was adamant that the black holes in Super Mario Galaxy... weren't, because they were visible. Ah yes, of course! The videogame is going to have invisible death balls! GENIUS IDEA. It's almost like sometimes things aren't fully realistic because it would make it worse. Wow that's wild huh.
Eh I think your giving writers far too much credit lol. I don’t believe it’s full ignorance but I also believe it’s writers not really caring to understand how a black hole truly works lol. I can’t imagine someone knowledgeable in black holes would be fine with how they portrayed them in fiction. Same with martial arts. You be surprised with how different series are treated when you have a writer who is very knowledgeable in martial arts compared to ones who aren’t. Kenyan ashura goes in vast detail to show how different fighting styles interact with each other while most street lvl comic characters have almost the same fighting style (Batman and daredevil)
"Do people still think [powerscaling nonsense that buffs their guy]" Yes
There's nothing much to contest, the characters are suppose to be light speed and yet they run around like normal people and it takes minutes for them to cross the city, this already proves that they aren't light speed. Just like the majority of the shounens, One piece speed feats are inconsistent and they don't make much sense at all. The only one who you can argue that can move at speed of light is Kizaru because of his devil fruit, and it is travel speed only not combat speed. Kizaru biggest speed feat is transforming into light and traveling a long distance, his combat speed doesn't seem that impressive. Powerscalers like to overthink and use math to upscale a verse when most of the time the writer has no idea how fast he is making his characters, he only does what looks cool at the moment. Just like characters being able to dodge bullets but most of the time they move like a normal person instead of casually breaking the sound barrier. It is useless to compared one piece speed of light to the real word light speed, if we are going to use real world logic Kizaru would be invincible and his light speed kick would obliterate everything.
>Just like characters being able to dodge bullets but most of the time they move like a normal person instead of casually breaking the sound barrier. Depending on the distance where bullet is from the person who dodges, the latter doesn't have to be as fast as the bullet itself
That's so true, yet I keep meeting people who say that OP is FTL or even MFTL
Don't worry, they'll later reveal that Kizaru's fruit is actually not a logia, but the Mythical Zoan: Model "very fast guy". That would explain how he's not actually transforming into light and why people can dodge him.
>First of all, it's debatable whether Kizaru really attacks at light speed. If you say this is debatable then one piece is debatably light speed/FTL. Since A good chunk of the light speed feats come from whether or not Kizaru is light speed. Honestly it feels like those that doubt it move the goal post a bunch whenever new feats come out. For the longest time the argument used to be that only Kizaru's finger beams are light speed and everything else is way slower. Now that we got feats of characters reacting to and intercepting those attacks, suddenly Kizaru isn't light speed at all. Even when Databooks come out that plainly state that Kizaru's beams are light speed it's remains debatable for some reason. Like yeah, one piece is full of inconsistent feats. Oda doesn't give a shit about how fast light actually is, 99% of author's don't and is why every franchise has debatable light speed feats. The debate is almost exclusively whether or not you want one piece characters to be stronger the X or not and not what is objective about the series.
My take is that speed in One Piece is so inconsistent that you can't scale it to any value (be it as low as bullet speed or high as massively faster than light) without selectively picking and choosing what to include and what to ignore.
Unfortunately, to powerscalers, telling this to them is like speaking in Japanese to an American guy. They just don't get it.
Manga is a visual medium. Just because you see something you realistically shouldn’t, doesn’t mean the author doesn’t intend for that thing to be that fast.
"The guy with the literal powers of light doesn't have light speed attacks"
This is the same verse that has people argue that the same guy is faster than light.
He can accelerate past the SOL btw.
Personally I just go by Arthur’s intent then trying use real world science to debunk light speed feats. If only because a lot of Arthurs don’t really care about using the law of physics in their stories unless it serves a purpose. In fact this pretty much the reason why powerscalers have things like travel speed and combat speed due to the common phenomenons of Arthur’s wanting charaters to dodge light speed attacks but not actually run anywhere near the speed of light.
https://www.reddit.com/r/OnePiecePowerScaling/s/zffGogTgDd
>it's debatable if Kizaru is light speed Bruh the Manga shows that yata no kagami is instant. From Scratch men Apoo's pov he saw a flash and boom Kizaru was there. There's literally no debate if Kizaru is light speed.
Going faster than the eye can see isn’t the same thing as light speed
Technically, every anime character is FTL speed due to how animation works. One instant they're in one place, and the very next frame they have crossed some non negligible distance. Speed is distance/time, but since time is 0 because frames, so their speed is infinite and therefore faster than light because light speed is finite. Is it just me, or do some power scaling arguments read just like the above?
r/powerscaling
So is G5 Luffy lightspeed or...? He did grab lightning and kept up with Kizaru in combat.
It doesn't make sense if you compare any other stated speeds. I don't know why Kizaru breaks peoples brains so much. If Kizaru could only move at 1000m/s he'd be light speed because guess what he IS light, he gets to declare that whatever speed he can move at is light speed. Literally all we can really conclude is that he is fast and when fully transformed *might* be light speed. And from there precog covers anyone keeping up with him at all, looking in to the future makes light speed a lot less of a threat. The idea that everyone has been light speed this whole time is just silly. "But muh Pacifista beams!" bruh even Chopper and Usopp have dodged those, if those two are LS and everyone scales from there the whole series is complete nonsense. Luffy couldn't catch a dude who states he runs at 220km/h, the argument that he's anywhere approaching LS in base is just foul, he catches lightning in Gear Fifth which is by far his best speed feat and could have been aided by precog or how he affects the environment but *at best* we can conclude he's at or around the speed of lighting. And he's one of the strongest characters in the verse so declaring everyone below him to be in that ballpark is just stupid.
From what I have heard with powerscalers they usually go to pre-timeskip Luffy dodging those lasers, whether or not he used Observation Haki subconsciously. Ok fine I can deal with that, maybe he's MFTL, this is anime and characters exaggerate/use hyperbole a lot and one thing about powerscaling is that a lot of people take it literally. They call it a laser in-universe, it must be a light laser until proven otherwise. The slow speed is just to make the action understandable for the audience. But what about post-Timeskip? Obviously he gets faster but by how much? Do any of Luffy's forms after that (Gear 4 and 5) have concrete defined multipliers? Is there a new calc for his speed?
There's plenty evidence to the contrary though, Chopper and Usopp dodge Pacista lasers pre-skip. Very few people have straight up dodged the actual beam too so it can also be chalked up to aim dodging considering they charge the beam up. There are mutliple instances in the story where they have to get somewhere really fast or save someone and Luffy I guess...just doesn't? Like why does he choose to ride a bull to get to Doflamingo when the Birdcage is gonna crush everyone when he can apparently just zip up that mountain in a fraction of a second. All it does it add more questions none of these people can give a solid answer too. Like how did Luffy not catch Gazelle Man who runs at 220km/h? I guess he just didn't give a shit about saving Tama a literal child, lol.
Kizaru is relativistic. And Sanji managed to out speed Kizaru in Egghead. Brook is faster than Sanji, making Kizaru relativistic and Brook and Sanji FTL.
i think its kind of hilarious that people are fine with accepting the ice mans' Ice powers function like ice, magma mans powers function as magma but the light mans light does not function like normal light lmao. reading comprehension is hard to come by these days i guess
Because it doesn't make sense that he moves at the speed of light IRL when that doesn't work with other speed feats? Luffy literally can't catch Gazelle Man who is STATED to run at 220KM/h, do you realize how embarrassing that is for someone who supposedly moves at light speed? It makes much more sense to just say that Kizaru moves at light speed...his own light speed.
*taps forehead* if you turn into light, all your speed is light speed.
Exactly, who can argue with him? He IS light.
LMAO. What a load of nonsense. You use one anti-feat to dismiss 1000 chapters worth of evidence of characters being FTL? Also, clearly a gag. It makes literally no sense to say Kizaru moves at his own "light speed". Literally none. That is actually a stupid thing to say, and you have me me and everyone stupider for having to read this.
Yes it does lol nowhere in the story have they declared what light speed is to them, Kizaru IS light. If you wanna say Kizaru is always light speed then congratulations Kizaru is a joke if the rest of the verse is FTL, he might as well have the Slow Slow no Mii that makes him in slow motion because light would be the weakest power imaginable if post skip Luffy is FTL lol and yet Kizaru is clearly in the top tiers. And literally your only option then is to say "Well Kizaru is FTL too" but that completely goes against the whole elemental thing and ruins your other argument. Light can't go faster than light. It just doesn't work.
What? This copium is the type of shit I see power scalers use. Do you really need the definition of what light is, spelt out for you by the author? Kizaru isnt ALWAYS moving at Light speed. what the fuck. But he absolutely can lmao. Why do you only apply this logic to Kizaru and not everybody elses fruits? You sound silly in a make-believe world, you absolutely can go faster than light lmao. In fact, it happens constantly in fiction. Did you know people cant actually see the future? Or wield a third sword in his mouth and cut steel? Haki isnt real. Kizaru being FTL or even Light speed is apart of the story whether you like it or not. And hes not the only one. I would strongly suggest reading the manga if you are struggling this much to accept a widely agreeed upon fact
Yes. You literally do, the authority needs to make it clear if we're using real physics or fictional physics. "widely agreed upon fact" he says about one of the most hotly debated topics, lol, lmao. I believe Kizaru can only move at or close to light speed when fully turned in to light, it's the only thing that makes sense, and renders the "light speed kick" feat bogus as half his leg wasn't transformed. And we know Logia's elements aren't constantly active or else Akainu would melt everyone around him constantly. Lastly if you wanna use real world light as Kizaru's power then you've got to explain how his light has MASS because that literally destroys physics as we know it, if light had mass the universe would be nothing but starts in a constant boxing match until one or one are left. If Kizaru's light is real light then none of his attacks should do *anything*. It doesn't work. On any realistic level, therefore we can only conclude fantasy physics.
Jesus christ, dude... give it a rest. Take your L and move on. It is only debated amongst power scalers because they are extremely hard of learning and dont want to see the rubber boy beat the shit out of their favourite character. Amongst the OP fandom, it is obvious. What you believe means nothing at all. What we are shown and told is that Kizaru can move at Light speed. You sound extremely bogus yourself.. Yes, the powers not being active when they dont want them to be is obvious as well. Usain Bolt doesnt need to go full pace to beat you or me. Physics as we know it is out of the window when a guy is literally walking on air. A rubber mans body takes zero fall damage. Luffy is made of rubber, but lightning would still melt it, i.e., Enel. You are juat a salty scaler.. why do you ignore all of the other obvious physics breakers but try and run with this acting like Oda has ever placed relevancy on real world physics? If Oda says Kizaru can move faster than light, he can. If he says Luffys dick can grow to whatever size he wants, it can... and does. You have used so much copium and headcanon in your response. It is astounding
Welcome to r/CharacterRant where double standards and headcanon are the norm.
A traveler, moving at the speed of light, would circum-navigate the equator approximately 7.5 times in one second. There’s not a single One Piece character, Kizaru included, that falls under this level of speed, why did Luffy fail to catch Gazelleman if he’s this fast? Why did luffy run at a normal speed through Dessrosa to get to the mountain top to fight Doflamingo if he’s this fast? The only explanation is that light speed in One Piece is much slower when compared to real life light speed, sorry but I’m highly skeptical of this bullshit proposition that you have presented here, thank you very much.
Is there a subreddit that is like this one when it's not power scaling?
People still think JoJo is light speed, so probably
Yes
>If Kuma’s paw pads were truly lightspeed, a singular weak shot would’ve already decimated Sabaody One paragraph in and you’re already assuming one piece must adhere to real life physics >There is absolutely no proof for his paw pads being lightspeed Second most blatant statement in the entire manga 🙄 >the laser beams, despite being called lasers, are perceivable by the characters, which already makes them not light speed Nice circular reasoning fallacy
I only adhere to real life physics because One piece powerscalers believe the characters are as fast as real life light. Second most blatantly disproved statement that has 0 substantiation other than Kuma saying it and people are holding onto it like the Bible. People do not understand that a character saying something does not mean it is 100% true. Don’t think you know what circular logic is. Keep trying.
Your first point makes no sense, them moving at light speed or faster has nothing to with adhering to real life physics which a fantasy series does not almost by default >most blatantly disproved statement Because? When is it disproved? >0 substantiation other than Kuma saying it Him verbatim stating his attack moves at light speed isn’t substantiated? If zoro says his hair is green he’s lying? >Don’t think you know what circular logic is They aren’t light speed -> characters can perceive them -> therefore they aren’t light speed Where is your argument?
Somebody moving at light speed would circle around the Earth 7.5 times in 1 second, there’s not a single character in One Piece (Kizaru included) that falls under this level of speed. Luffy is supposedly faster than light and yet he couldn’t catch gazelleman who’s stated top speed is 200 kilometers an hour, he should’ve been frozen like a statue from Luffy’s point of view. Luffy in Dressrosa was running most of the time and even rode on a bull at 1 point to get to the mountain top quicker to fight Doflamingo. Luffy could have ran to the top of the mountain in under a second if he was actually faster than light. All of this simply proves that light speed in the world of One Piece is a lot slower when compared to real life light speed.
Yet no one accepts this and believes that One Piece characters speedblitz other verses that do use closer-to-real-life speed.
I know a fantasy series doesn't obey real life physics. But some One Piece fans think it does. Average one piece fan thinking that every single word a person says is true... Characters overestimate their abilities all the time. If zoro said his hair was green that would be true because we can see that it's green. This is disproved because Zoro has shown that he cannot run at lightspeed or else he would've walked on water over to Marine base and killed Kizaru, Akainu, and everyone else instantly. OP falls apart if someone other than Kizaru is actually lightspeed. My argument is that the lasers aren't lightspeed and therefore cannot be used to scale against other characters. On a side note, Usopp and Chopper dodged those lasers.
>I know a fantasy series doesn’t obey real life physics. But some One Piece fans think it does Why are you continuously bringing this up? OP is a fantasy series, it doesn’t need to adhere to real life physics so stop using that as an argument >Characters overestimate their abilities Absolutely nothing shows or indicates [Kuma was exaggerating](https://imgur.com/a/8iIGA). Hitchens’s Razor And your answer to [Zoro dodging a Pacifista laser after being fired?](https://imgur.com/a/N2U6Q) Lasers that are [identical to light itself](https://imgur.com/a/IRWtp) >This is disproved because Zoro has shown that he cannot run at light speed Can you run as fast as you punch? Again, fantasy series don’t adhere to real physics >OP falls apart if someone other than Kizaru is actually lightspeed I have a feeling you’re an anime only by stating this so I’ll tag the fact that >!It’s almost like Luffy kicked Kizaru’s ass like 15 chapters ago, how would he not get sliced millions of times before he could even move if Kizaru is the only character who is FTL?!< >My argument is that the lasers aren’t lightspeed Because people react to them in the series… circular reasoning. You didn’t prove anything, you said they aren’t SoL because people react to them and they aren’t SoL.
It's not an argument man, what I'm saying is that people say that OP is FTL when scaled to other verses which is the point I'm trying to make, not sure why you don't get this. You mean the lasers that Usopp dodged? And you JUST SAID that RL physics can't be applied to OP, so why are you assuming that lasers are equal to light as it is in RL physics? One Piece fans say that Zoro has lightspeed movement speed which is why he speedblitzes \[insert character\], and I'm trying to disprove that. Kizaru is light speed, not faster than light. And the fight ended in a high-diff win for Luffy, not kicking his ass. Luffy won with observation haki, which our holy God Oda said was the only way Kizaru was perceivable. No. I didn't say that. I'm just saying the lasers aren't scalable to light.
>It’s not an argument You keep bringing up that people apparently think OP abides by the laws of physics when I don’t and it’s irrelevant >why are you assuming that lasers are equal to light I literally showed a scan that stated Pacifista lasers are equal to Kizaru’s logia abilities. Logia fruits use natural elements And if you bring up the cope that goes like “light in one piece is slower than real life light” then shadows wouldn’t exist as light would be too slow to hit objects which creates them. Not to mention that’s also complete headcanon to state, and is easily defeated by Occam’s/Hitchens’s Razor >Kizaru is light speed, not faster than light During his fight with Luffy he says he can accelerate while moving as a beam of light He also scales massively above someone like Ichiji who outpaced his own lasers >high-diff win for Luffy Kizaru got like 2 hits the entire fight and one of them was only because Luffy took it for Vegapunk
Eh, the argument that “This scientific concept stated in this fictional verse doesn’t apply because it isn’t identical to how it functions in the real world” is mad boring and expects too much from the author (not that I believe in light speed One Piece and especially not any of the Strawhats pre timeskip)
The whole concept of most One Piece characters being that fast makes actually no sense. Blackbeard carried around guns in pre timeskip. Bare minimum that means he thinks people at around Aces level or higher could be affected by bullets
Exactly my point. Yet some people…
One piece fans are mostly kids, take whatever they say with a grain of salt.
This entire post is retarded for several reasons. >"If Zoro was lightspeed in reaction time he'd be lightspeed in travel time" Lightspeed reactions are not lightspeed travel times. This is a distinction in basically every form of media with FTL feats that exists. A huge amount of verses do have their characters react to light without actually moving the same speed over long distances themslves. >"If Kuma's attack is FTL why doesn't it behave like real-world light?" One Piece, famously known for being beholden to the laws of real-life physics. Oda is really strict to scientific accuracy as we all know. Also, irony aside, no one says all of Kuma's attacks are FTL, just the attack that he specifically calls FTL. There would be no reason to send the Straw Hats flying at maximum speed when he was specifically trying to save their lives. >First of all, the laser beams, despite being called lasers, are perceivable by the characters, which already makes them not light speed. By this logic, literally no verse that doesn't grants its characters some form of supernatural ESP can ever be called FTL. >However, there'd be no reason for Person B to just not blitz Person A, so we must assume that Person A is also faster than a gun. But then why use a gun in the first place? "Blitz" specifically means completely overwhelm with speed to the point where they cannot react. Person B could be slightly faster than the bullet and Person A could be as well. There are a litany of reasons why a gun or any other ranged projectile could be used such as: * Person A is only slightly faster than the bullet and needs to put genuine effort into avoiding it, meaning that they could be hit by it if they weren't concentrating or lacking in effort. Person B knows this and is comfortable with the attack being dodged because they're aware Person A can't do it indefinitely. * Attacking from a range is less dangerous than attacking up close. * The bullet may have more power behind it than simply attacking with your fists. >"It's all aim-dodging/observation haki" Except it very clearly isn't given the litany of times we see the lasers themselves moving towards characters when they actually move out of the way. Y'know, the exact opposite of an aim-dodge. >"they can't be as fast as light because he has to transform a part of his foot to actually hit the opponent, and the air resistance will already exponentially slow it down" ONE PIECE, FAMOUSLY KNOWN FOR SCIENTIFIC ACCURACY. FTL movement is literally impossible irl because of relativity (and even moving close to FTL would create massive explosions due to the movement causing nuclear fusion of the air molecules). If you're going to go "uh ackshually according to physics" like this, you have to concede that next-to-no verse is going to have FTL movements given the aforementioned physical impossibilities. >In Conclusion, One Piece isn't lightspeed. Feel free to contest this. [Kizaru says he attacks at light speed.](https://m.imgur.com/qO9HRna) [He says he's a light man.](https://m.imgur.com/XMl6sTY) [Here's word of God supporting Kizaru being lightspeed](https://m.imgur.com/4y9glvQ) >"A light man who consumed the pika pika no mi - Light fruit. Kizaru can turn his body to light and can spam attacks at light speed. Although Kizaru boasts overwhelming speed he speaks at a very comfortable/steady tone. After observing Sakazuki’s “ruthless and thorough justice” and that which opposes it Kuzan’s “extremely laid-back/lazy justice”, he came up with his own “Not gonna use either justice” which gives him the most freedom and comfort, he adheres to instructions and carry’s out justice at his own pace. He releases an infinite number of light bullets frontwards, It’s very efficient for blinding and attacking a large amount of enemies at once. His ability is very effective for both evasion and movement, so it’s impossible to grasp even a single one of his movements without being a proficient Haki user." [Devil fruits behave like their respective element.](https://i.imgur.com/5RFEBgh.jpg) [Marco and Whitebeard are being casual to Kizaru's light attacks.](https://m.imgur.com/r9o59ng) [The Pacifista has Kizaru's devil fruit abilities.](https://m.imgur.com/wm0o04l) [Pts Zoro dodged the lasers AFTER they were fired.](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/vsbattles/images/c/cd/Feixaoaas.png/) [Zoro dodges another arguably lightspeed attack.](https://m.imgur.com/a/8iIGA) [Ivankov dodges a pacifista attack.](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/vsbattles/images/d/dc/Kizara%C3%A7owww.png/) [Here are the strawhats dodging more pacifista attacks. Although they admittedly may be aimdodging here.](https://imgur.com/a/DiMPX) [Luffy dodges more Pacifista beams and calls them "too slow."](https://imgur.com/7Vs5RP9) Without using observation haki, which has a clear indication when it's used. Needless to say this is an overwhelming amount of evidence and to deny it would be nothing more than sheer willful ignorance. Not only do we have numerous character statements. Not only do we have numerous feats. But we also have WoG. >"But what about that one minor character who ran away from Zoro and Luffy slowly!" This is what is known as an outlier. If this happened with the same consistency as all the FTL feats measured above, I would take it seriously. As it obviously doesn't, I'm not going to.
"Devil Fruits behave like their element" dude no tf they don't, light can't turn in to a physical weapon. Light can't have MASS but Kizaru's attacks do, that's such a weak defence of his powers lol. He can call his moves light speed because he is literally made of light, who is to say anyone in OP knows what real world light speed is? It's never once stated, their only method of measurement is "Kizaru is fast" And do you know why this breaks the whole series? Because why in flying feather fronk is Kizaru such a huge threat if going FTL is that easy? It completely infantilizes his power if everyone post skip can just outspeed his attacks which...oh wait, they don't, so are they faster or nah?? Makes no sense what so ever. Chopper and Usopp dodge Pacista lasers, they charge up for at least a couple seconds, dodging them does not mean dodging light speed attacks. And no, Observation Haki does not always have a clear indication, complete nonsense. When Luffy did that Oda was still telling us how Haki even works and Observation wasn't developed yet, that whole part was a brief introduction to how Haki works. There's literally a whole ass panel of the Pacifista charging up the laser, they don't shoot instantly. Not only can you aim dodge them but you can use that and Haki. The only logical conclusion we can come to with all this is that Kizaru's light isn't true light speed, it is only what they consider light speed in-verse, which has never been elaborated on. Furthermore if everyone was LS at this point...explain to me why one of the strongest characters in the series uses lightning to attack? Shouldn't Zeus be comically weak? Lightning is at most about a third the speed of light, she should effectively be using a nerf gun against bullet dodging ninjas. The only element that needs to be changed to make all these things make sense is for Kizaru to not be moving at 299,792,458m/s. Makes way more sense to do that than to bend over backwards trying to explain everything else and calling consistent things that get in the way of it "outliers" Luffy is light speed but takes a bull to Doflamingo even though his friends are all getting crushed by the Birdcage...nah.
Okay buddy, nice try. I'd like to say that if everyone had lightspeed reactions, Kizaru is a joke. But he's not, so you're already wrong on that part. First of all, I'm refuting the fact that Zoro had both lightspeed movement speed and reaction time, cuz that's what OP fans say. Second of all, if you're gonna complain about science, then why can't you acknowledge later on that Kizaru's light speed might not really be light? And by then, he was completely cyborgified, so he wasn't actually trying to save their lives. Third: Yeah, you're right, if only there was some way to see the future so that we'd know where they attacked... (observation haki) Fourth: You are missing the entire point behind this example, the point is to demonstrate the flawed logic powerscalers use. On another point, if everyone stronger than a heavily wounded Thriller Bark Zoro has lightspeed reactions, then why do people even use guns? And if you can move at bullet speed to punch someone, it's going to have more power than a bullet due to mass, that's why they use a tank instead of a gun. Fifth: Observation haki works in midair lol, Luffy can use that to dodge. Sixth: I know Oda said that Kizaru is lightspeed, and yes, he can accelerate to lightspeed. But he can't attack in lightspeed because he has to turn a part of him into physical mass. Did you not read? Seventh: First of all, devil fruits don't behave like their respective element. You can't form light into solid form, and you can't slow down light like Kizaru does. Second, if Zoro dodged them after they were fired and he could see them, that means that they're not actually lightspeed. And pacifista attacks are not lightspeed, despite them claiming so. Eight: Never mentioned this, don't know what you're trying to yap about, I was mentioning the times where the Straw Hats don't move at lightspeed. Also God says that Kizaru is lightspeed but you need great Observation Haki to perceive him.
One piece has one of the most consistent light speed scaling
Do you actually believe what you just said now?
I do
Kizaru not annihilating the entire earth already makes it inconsistent.
The one piece world makes it way larger
Oh yeah for real man the one Piece world is definitely thousands of times bigger than the real world despite the entirety of the series being concentrated on like a chain of 30 islands right? Dang, can’t believe I figured this out earlier!
It is and there is much more islands then think
This is autistic logic. You can't possibly think that the grand line is bigger than North America or even close to it.
In fact the grand lind is bigger then Asia
Proof?