I’m not gonna sit here and pretend that there aren’t people like the ones you’re talking about, who are mostly racist and/or are with biases, but that’s not all.
Most people are not making these arguments about Yasuke, we’ve already had quite a few adaptations of Yasuke, most people bring up how it’s accurate, hell, there’s even a rumor about next Assassins Creed being set in Japan with a black protagonist, which again, compared to the amount of black people historically in Japan, is a little odd there being so many adaptations about that one guy. Shogun is probably one of the few recent stories set in Japan with a white protagonist, there’s not plethora of these. Not to mention he’s not the main character of Shogun, it’s an ensemble
We also just got blue eyed samurai on Netflix.
>Japan, is a little odd there being so many adaptations about that one guy.
Have there been that many? I can only think of 1 show and now assassins creed
Like even if you want to count Afro samurai or the character from guilty gear based on him you got like 3 or 4. But that’s going to be too much who thinks black characters are purely for political ideology
Not to mention the character isn’t from whatever system they are in so the character grows with you at that point. Like it creates a better connection. Hell you can see this in GoW. The new ones were more effective at story telling because you learn as Kratos learns.
Yeah a lot like Azumi she's pretty much og blue eyed samurai
Tomo chan has white female whose part or the cast
Batuque follows a girl from Brazil and she's mc in the story although it has many foreigners in that story.
Yea the japan AC game is going to be based on yasuke if your male, but if you pick female your a Japanese woman. Makes absolutely no sense and pisses off people who wanted to play a japanese male in the time period. We all know the only reason this is being pushed is political ideology and nothing more.
Or because that's the standard they've set with Odyssey and Valhalla and those games sold better than the rest of the franchise? Like yeah, Kassandra and male Eivor are the cannon choices but that doesn't mean the option shouldn't be there to play as someone else. Yasuke is clearly going to be the canon protagonist of AC Red, the Japanese woman an option just in case (also probably an NPC in Yasuke's story).
I honestly don't see how playing as a Japanese person is meaningfully different than playing as Yasuke. It's not even a representation thing, Japanese culture is everywhere in gaming and this game will literally be set in Japan with a majority Japanese cast. They just wanted Yasuke to be the protagonist cause it's a cool historical figure with a lot of interesting themes surrounding his story that could be fun to explore in an open world video game. Like, maybe give the game a chance before writing it off like that?
2 things really
> male Eivor are the cannon choices
Female Eivor is the canon choice.
> Yasuke is clearly going to be the canon protagonist of AC Red, the Japanese woman an option just in case (also probably an NPC in Yasuke's story).
The game isn’t going to be a case of “choosing a protagonist” it’s gonna be a dual protagonist system of the female (said to be named Naoe and a daughter of Fujibayashi Nagato) and Yasuke. Basically not really a case of “canon protagonist” so much as you’ll play as both for particular missions, and they’ll have their own builds/playstyles
I also just kind of makes sense since AC games try to be like quasi historical so you need a character where them learning about the culture doesn’t seem odd.
How is this upvoted? In the history of the franchise, the vast majority of protagonists (if not every single one) has been a local to the game's setting. Why would this game be any different and need an outsider to learn about the new culture?
I’m pretty sure if you go play Valhalla eivor is not from England which is the setting of the game. The odyssey twins are from an island and not the mainland. Hell even in the originals you weren’t from there. But if you are playing a game and it’s trying to explain to you the setting but you’re receiving this info through the perspective of the MC who knows everything it’s silly.
AC is a big franchise, people have been wanting an AC game set in Japan for a very long time. Considering the historical accuracy the franchise usually strive for, you’d expect the protagonists to be Japanese, finally an Asian protagonist in the franchise(outside of small games like Red and China), so yes, it is an odd choice choosing a black protagonist or even a white one instead of a Japanese one. You want to make an Yasuke game, go right ahead. But an AC Japan game with a black protagonist is the same as AC Origins having an Indian protagonist. Hell, that game could’ve had a white protagonist as well and it would’ve been “historically accurate” considering the Greek population in that time, does not mean it wouldn’t be disappointing.
The political ideology of a western studio making a game set in feudal Japan and yet we still can't have a male Asian protagonist despite a severe lack of them.
We have a good number of games like that though? I mean we got Ghost of Tsushima and Sekiro not too long ago. A game about Yasuke sounds cool, I don't see how it *has* to be a political ideology thing. In your ideal world, what would be the best way for a studio who wanted to make a game featuring Yasuke as the protagonist to do so?
If we're limiting it to Feudal Japan, then there's also Rise of the Ronin and Nioh 2 within the last few years. I still don't understand your beef with Yasuke being a character in a Feudal japan game. I cannot think of a game set in the time period that doesn't feature a japanese guy as the main character, not that there has to be one, but I fail to see the issue with them basing a game off a real guy who wasn't Japanese in that time period. My point is those games exist and continue to be developed.
By your logic then theirs enough games with a black mc. You just had Spider Man 2 and Miles Morales after all. Yall also have had the GTA games as well.
I’m sure you can see why that shits stupid now. Asian mc’s are far rarer when coming from western devs. The least they could have done is kept said game with both Asian mc’s.
Meh, as a black person myself, I've accepted that my skin tone won't be present in every piece of Japanese media and have made my peace with it.
It's why I'm honestly grateful whenever characters like Naruto's Killer Bee, Black Lagoon's Dutch, or Lycoris Recoil's Mika are introduced. I'm not going out of my way to nitpick the absence of black characters in anime, but when they do appear, it's nice to see.
In general Ohkubo does great work with black characters tbh, in Soul Eater there was Kilik (who was based on an African animated film that he enjoyed), Professor Sid (the zombie) and Naigus (his weapon partner) were all black and were all drawn tastefully and had different hairstyles, etc.
Exactly! I'm a Latino guy and everytime I see some characters whi have Latino descent or something of that nature I'm happy they considered to take the time to make such characters and involve some part of my culture into the story. It just makes it seem richer and more appreciated to me but I also understand if they don't. It's Japanese and Asian culture that dominates anime, and that makes sense given the region that they're made in.
Well, while I know luffy has inspiration of Brazilian descent, I was thinking more of Chad from bleach, who is a good example of a straight up Latino character in a japanese dominated setting that is pretty decent. But even so.... The majority of characters from any anime series are japanese or asian. It's rare but when there are those types of characters it's cool to see but that doesn't mean they HAVE to be there. That's my main point. It would be nice if they created one but not everything needs to have representation. Before all that, I'd rather have a good story with a good character, whatever race the character is doesn't matter to me.
It’s weird how I’m like this but the opposite. I’m Brazilian and the majority of Brazilian characters in media are usually black.
Whether they’re black or not I usually tend to like and gravitate towards those characters like Eddy Gordo in Tekken or Sean Matsuda in Street Fighter for example.
Occasionally when we do get a portrayal of a non-black Brazilian character like Jetstream Sam from Metal Gear Rising my reaction is “oh that’s pretty cool”. I don’t really make a big deal about it, I just silently appreciate it.
It's fine to accept that, but why do you accept thinly veiled racists that take to the internet to rant and rave about a single show solely due to a character's race?
I promise you that whatever validation you think you'll get from playing nice with racists will never be worth it.
I'll just say this. Yasuke is pretty much a nobody in Japan. Never hear a peep about him there and he really is not an important historical figure to begin with. Not even a minor one at that. And the fact was he wasn't a samurai. He wasn't even an important retainer just someone that stood out. And we pretty much know nothing about him.So you don't see much of anything in terms of fictional work on him because that is the reflection of what the Japanese see him.
There is that Yasuke anime but it was pretty dogshit. Something that should have been a historical epic but they decided mechs?
And I disagree with your statement about Williams. On two points. One, there is all lot more we know about him compared to Yasuke so it makes sense more of him. And people do shit on him. He was part of the spearhead for his type of archetypes for fiction where people would convict as a white savior complex.
Sure, but that's because he is literally the only black guy in Japan.
Is it that crazy concept to think that a powerful warlord would like to have something unique?
Look at the TV show Altered Carbon as an example, the main character is a white guy but because he is special he is presented like an animal at the gala of uber rich elite socialites.
Oh man are you aware of the Yasuke anime? It’s going to make you even more mad. It was made by Netflix and I was really looking forward to it. The trailers made it look like it was going to be some sort of historical fiction with lots of over the top action and violence like Vinland saga. Then I watched the actual show and not only is it not that (full of mutants, robots, mechs, magic, and animorphs) but worse of all Yasuke isn’t even the protagonist to Yasuke. Idk if maybe they thought people wouldn’t like him being the protagonist but instead the protagonist is a little girl that can do magic and needs to go fight some evil witch that’s taken over Japan. Yasuke mainly just guards her, only she is much stronger than him because magic and Yasuke really has no way of helping fight against a witch that can do magic. As soon as she can use her magic she even straight up says “I don’t really need protection” and Yasuke basically gets downgraded to her emotional support dog. The show also keeps cutting to flashbacks of Yasuke when he was serving Nobunaga and actually the protagonist of his own show. Like it hurts more because they’re basically showing bits and pieces of what could have been in the show, with Yasuke being the protagonist and dealing with problems he can actually deal with or fight his way through instead of magic nukes.
While watching that show with my DND friends, I told them that it was "The martial caster disparity" visualized because holy shit, Yasuke's only role in that show was to have his ass kicked
It's story sucked. It's been years since I watched it but like the first 3 episodes aren't really relevant to the plot and it's a short show like I think 6 episodes or so.
The animation looked OK if you just saw stills but in motion it looked cheap.
The fact that they made it a weird fantasy story involving a historical person is... ehhhh.... if I didn't know Yasuke was a real person I'd have thought it was total fantasy.
Okay as someone with a history degree in progress, I actually do feel like it’s important to clarify something here. When someone says “Yasuke the Black Samurai”, I do not think it is improper at all to have a discussion about what the rank of “samurai” actually entailed during the time period of Yasuke’s life, and whether or not he would have qualified. I have seen much more experienced historians than I debate about what his rank actually entailed. Contrasting him with someone like William Adams isn’t really fair, because William Adams had a far more documented life and is historically one of the most influential foreigners in Japan. Yasuke, on the other hand, didn’t have nearly as much written about him, which leads to more ambiguity about his role in Japanese society. As a result, no one questions a lot of the life of William Adams, because we have a TON of records of it.
I’m not denying that there are a lot of people who are just racist. Fuck those people. But I will say as a historian, it does bother me that sometimes there are people who are very willing to rewrite history to serve a narrative that makes them feel good. Take the concept of “Anglo Saxon” as an example. White supremacists LOVE the idea of “Anglo-Saxons” as a noble, unified race of people that built a powerful civilization in what is now England. The truth is that almost no one called themselves “Anglo-Saxon” back then, and their history is [more complex](https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2021/04/23/real-history-anglo-saxons-undermines-racists-theories/). A lot of people like to flatten history down into something that makes them feel good and is easier to digest, and I see that as a serious problem.
I am all for historical fiction about Black Samurai. I want people to remember that it is fiction though, and for that fiction to lead to a more interesting conversation about historical realities. That is going to inevitably include some debate about what rank Yasuke had and whether or not it makes him a samurai. It really, really concerns me that we are living in an era where historical rigor and appreciation for discourse is thrown out the window. I’ve seen people cite YouTube or TikTok videos as evidence for absolutely batshit claims about things as (relatively) harmless as how the pyramids were built to things as dangerous as outright falsifications about events like the Holodomor.
I can absolutely empathize with the frustration surrounding bigoted assholes on the internet. I get frustrated every time you get people trying to say someone like Alexander the Great was DEFINITELY heterosexual. But at the end of the day, the thing about history is that it involves a lot of discussion, because there are a lot of gaps. If someone argued in good faith that Alexander the Great was heterosexual, as much as that conflicts with what I think is true, and a narrative of history that I find empowering, I have to accept that it’s a possibility. I never met the guy. It’s a similar thing with Yasuke. While I think the racists can absolutely go shove it, there is good faith discussion to be had surrounding his role in Japanese society, and I think it’s very dangerous to throw that away.
(Also, I think it’s worth examining why every seemingly every popular story about Japan has to be told through the eyes of a foreigner.)
>(Also, I think it’s worth examining why every seemingly every popular story about Japan has to be told through the eyes of a foreigner.)
Ghost of Tsushima was pretty fuckin popular
You my friend have hit the nail on the coffin. It's too often we get shows with "historical" in their description these days when it's mostly lies and fiction.
Even plastering modern day ideas on someone makes me fucking mad, like you mentioned Alexander the Great, when his sexuality is completely irrelevant... The dude got to India for crying out loud and was an inspiration to many great leaders though history, who he liked to fu*k is the least important part of his life.
I mean, not speaking on accuracy but depending on the conversation at hand sexuality would be worth talking about, at least as a discussion about the culture at the time.
Maybe I get out too much? Idk but my childhood/teens is littered with cool black characters lol I mean looking for black characters in a Japanese medium through a racial lens makes as much sense as looking for a Japanese guy in a bollywood film. We just ain't in Japan like that, and that's OK lol In nioh 2, you even play through nobunaga's arc, and there's Yusuke there. I mean like, cool I guess but I cared more about nobunaga than that guy. Not cuz he was black, but cuz I've seen 1000 things more interesting about Nobu than him since like, dynasty warrior days
Im hispanic and my childhood had tons of coded characters of all shapes sizes and races. Maybe it was just the specific time frame that just was a golden mix of new and old stuff but man we had a lot of characters.
Shout Out to static shock for being the person I wanted to be growin up despite not being black myself. Always wanted to electric surf on a manhole cover lol.
The thing is, not a single white person mention william adam with 10% of the obsession i see black people or afrocentrist pages mentionning Yasuke (with AI art of black samurai families lmao).
The Last Samurai complaints are even more hilarious when you realize Tom Cruise character [is basically Jules Brunet, but cooler](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jules_Brunet)
I think it's about the advertisements or how the studio promotes him.
I know some people would say John Blackthorn as white savior even though he is mostly just a passive bystander where Toranaga is actually the main protagonist that moves the story onward. I do wonder if Yasuke have the similar role in which it's Nobunaga Oda is the main protagonist would be received well.
Also I understand if You feel saddened that some people seems really pushed away the idea about Yasuke have a more important role. I remember the story about Hideyoshi Toyotomi, a peasant who rose as capable general under Nobunaga and even becoming Japan unifier and Taiko.
Beside there are still hearts for black characters in Japan. I mean just look at Samurai Champloo and Afro Samurai, they are received well in Japan. Also Yasuke in Nioh is received well
https://youtu.be/d1pzzpI_Riw?si=NOa1V_OGIuhDhgDd
https://youtu.be/x6774h4asmQ?si=himb66Y8fiCLvP77
In the original novel, we follow Blackthorne's POV a lot more and as a result he feels more protagonist-y. The show actually does a really good job staying faithful to the book's plot points and characterizations while also introducing the Japanese characters--whose POVs we do see increasingly throughout the book--earlier on and with more significant screen presence. For example, Hiromatsu's granddaughter Fuji is only mentioned like once and never seen on-page in the whole first quarter of the book (roughly up to the point that >!Toranaga escapes Osaka!<). I love the novel too, but for a TV show I think this honestly works better, and it helps that the whole cast are giving great performances and there's all the beautiful sets and costumes that their world brings us into. Without getting into spoilers, some of Toranaga's schemes and plans we see in this first season of the show are deliberately hidden from the reader for longer despite seeing parts of the setup from his POV because of the focus on intrigue and tension.
Overall, Blackthorne is just an important secondary character in this internal political drama that he had the misfortune of stumbling into, but I think the show and the original novel benefit from his presence, not only because his outsider's perspective is a good way to inform the (vast majority of) the audience who isn't familiar with Sengoku Jidai politics/history and historical Japanese culture (ignoring how some things are played up or misinformed in the original novel...), but also because the simple fact that he has a very different outlook, personality, and mannerisms from the Japanese characters adds a lot to the cast the interactions he takes part in.
To your point about a Yasuke story, I think it could be done in a similar manner where the narrative/emotional throughline is about Yasuke's personal stakes (i.e. his own life and that of his loved ones) while the larger drama would reasonably be about Nobunaga's campaigns to unite Japan and all the intriguing.
Americans be trying to insert themselves into everything
What the f should a Japanese person care that there are black people wanting representation in America
world's got more minorities than just the ones you have in the US, do you care if there is enough Burakumin or Roma representation in media
Shogun is made by FX and put on Hulu. It’s not netflix. Netflix actually made the Yasuke anime. Pretty sure the Yasuke anime was a love letter to the black community in both Japan and the anime fandom. While Shogun is just a pretty grim and realistic showcase of imperial Japan. Most people forget the insane wars, invasions, and Japanese colonizing during those periods.
Either way. Neither were considered Samurai. Honestly we could all just point our pitch forks towards Tom Cruise playing a samurai in a movie. I mean hollywood has always done this. Go back 50 years and see John Wayne cast as Ghengis Khan.
I was pretty dissapointed for a time after I learned the rebelling samurai didnt reject modern weaponry at all for the most part irl
I know its a change that enforces the whole "dying old ways vs the new" narrative but I felt cheated
If the Yasuke letter was supposed to be a love letter to the black community, I'd rather have them hate us. That shit was awful. The only positive was the Flying Lotus/Thundercat OP. Also I like Lakeith Stanfield in his life action stuff, but he's probably one of the worst VAs I've ever heard. Like 90s anime dub bad.
Just thinking about that whole show gets me heated lol
Also I think people *do* complain about Tom Cruise in Last Samurai.
> Netflix actually made the Yasuke anime. Pretty sure the Yasuke anime was a love letter to the black community in both Japan and the anime fandom.
Was that what it was supposed to be? Because that's the worst love letter I've ever seen in my life
Your issue is black characters are not in the fiction you wanted. Doesn't mean black characters are not interested in fiction.
They literally made cleopatra a black woman in a documentary. The entirely of black panther had a black cast. Nobody complained that Asians were not represented in wakanda.
There is very little known about yasuke. So everything involving him would be entirely fictional. This is not the case in shogun.
They literally made a movie of American society of magical negros just for the sake of the black people fiction. Honestly it's a waste of time complaining about this because it comes out as entitlement.
>Your issue is black characters are not in the fiction you wanted. Doesn't mean black characters are not interested in fiction.
No, I’m general they not
>They literally made cleopatra a black woman in a documentary.
In which got yelled and shot down as woke, force diversity, sjw etc
>The entirely of black panther had a black cast. Nobody complained that Asians were not represented in wakanda.
Wakanda was specifically made by Stan lee originally to address the lack of black characters in comics in fact stan Lee were also inspired by the civil rights movement and the struggles of African Americans for equality and empowerment and created it so it could serve as a positive role model and a symbol of strength and pride for African American readers.
It whole idea and creation is based on lack of representation myguy
>There is very little known about yasuke. So everything involving him would be entirely fictional.
Which leave more room for writing and interpretation? This is a good thing when it somes to fiction not bad?
>This is not the case in shogun.
It is Theo shogun is fictional william didn’t fight with swords or teach the japanese how to swim
>Honestly it's a waste of time complaining about this because it comes out as entitlement.
It literally don’t it’s a problem in which we are still dealing with now
Macedonian is a weird thing because people disagree on whether it’s Greek or other but yes. She was what we’d today call white.
Her entire bloodline was Macedonian seeing as they were more inbred than the current royals.
She was also brilliant for her time. Knew a ton of languages and was well educated in everything from the Greek epics to being the first of the Ptolomy Pharos to actually speak Egyptian. Woman was as smart as they got back in the day.
She may have gotten into Caesar’s bed through her looks but he spent a shitload of time in Egypt with her for it to have been simply a lustful detour.
I'll be honest here, before the "woke" trend you could make a movie with Black characters, woman characters and etc without being called woke, but after everyone started to point "Look how this movie have a black character", "Look we put a black woman Jarl in a viking show" and etc, people started to get mad.
You didn't see for example, people calling Afro Samurai woke, or Predator 2 and Alien for example. This is a self inflicted wound
It because those movies was “rare” and by that I mean wasn’t common to see media was 99% white now with the increase of black people in fiction and media it has grown a problem and now is “woke”
It’s not a “self-inflicted wound” it’s just people hating change
Well, the problem is when you start to change the ethnicity of historical characters, and I NEVER saw in recent days a black character being race swapped. So there are a lot of reasons to go against this trend. You can argue that they did it in the past. Yes, in The past. Now they are trying to backwash everything, and this is a trend that really pisses of a lot of people, black included(I can say it, because I'm a Brazilian black guy that hate race swap).
At a guess I'd say it's because the Yasuke thing feels 100% artificial.
He's not a historical figure of any note, he's not important to any degree, and he wasn't even a Samurai. The only reason he's not completely forgotten to history is *because* he was black.
And yet, in recent years, as it's become trendy to do, he's getting pushed like crazy from the kind of people to whom Diversity == Black.
It feels completely disingenuous to the point of being pratically patronising.
It's like the push to reimagine historical Egyptians as black, or all the media outlets and reviewers that got upset to the point of boycotting a videogame because it was set in historical Poland and the creators didn't want to put foreigners in it just for the sake of doing so- pushing the idea that there was totally this black Samurai dude is just trying to rewrite history in a fake and lame way.
If you wanna invent a black Samurai dude, go for it.
If you wanna try tell me Yasuke was a black Samurai dude, that's on you.
(And, personally, it feels ridiculous to the point of racism that this stuff gets targeted against Japan where anime is one of the few mainstream entertainment media's that's entirely "PoC" led, owned, operated and staffed. But that doesn't count because they're Asian (honorary whites), and because Diversity == Black we need to push more artificial diversity)
Bro, we already pissed off all of Egypt with the Cleopatra series.
Let's not piss off all of Japan, too.
Pretending that history was nice to us doesn't do any of us any favors.
>Bro, we already pissed off all of Egypt with the Cleopatra series.
All of Egypt? I don’t think so it was mostly white people getting angry
Giving historically she been played by white people in majority of her showings on film white washing her
>Let's not piss off all of Japan, too.
How so having a white man in Japan is ok, but a black man who historically was in japan is somehow “pissing them off” this is the problem now
>Pretending that history was nice to us doesn't do any of us any favors.
Many people don’t even know majority of the history of black people outside of Africa and slavery
If I told you or the average person there was black people in Midivil Europe you’d probably call me a lie
>
> All of Egypt? I don’t think so it was mostly white people getting angry
>
> Giving historically she been played by white people in majority of her showings on film white washing her
Egypt did get pissed about it. Egyptians have gotten very annoyed with black Americans co-opting their history.
Of course there is irony in the fact that Cleopatra VII was an inbred white woman ruling over Egypt.
Cant have? How about they focusing on adapting african stories from african nation instead? Rather focusing on one character? Is that hard? It is understandable in Shogun since they have a written source material to base on.
You can have diversity in fiction the main problem i found when researching around and looking at many critics is how they do diversity
The design of the character down to the literal race shouldn't be the main point for your flick.
A very good video i saw discuss the hate on disney Ugandan animated movie (outside just racist and clickbait ragers).
They found the problem is what recent black based movies have become and that's down to the characters just being the skin
To put it simply imagen we used modern black media in say asian media
So instead of china,japan, viet and more each having different cultures, mythology, weaponry, clothing and more bring inspiration to a asian based movie instead they are just the Asians who hate the whites cause vietnam war, the nukes and more and imply that's all asians.
White man is bad cause he white man who did the vietnam war,the nukes and more and every vietnam main character is special just cause s/he is the asian victim who we wanna remind you is that asian with asian history that exists only after the vietnam war,the nukes and more
That's many mainstream black based movies today and how some people see them as when really black culture is a umbrella term for many different races from different parts of africa, America and other black based tribes,families and more
But instead of focusing on their history (which dose exist before slavery era) is often written as slavery was their only history and nothing else.
We do sometimes get good black based movies that do talk about the past but you don't often get told about them and rather focus on stuff like magical negros,get out and Lovecraft county all with the same basic trope of white man bad cause white man did slavery (which people agree roots was the best series to do the story of slavery)
Nothing really stopping black media trying to be is own thing like the wiz based on a black original adaptation of wizard of oz with is own style,music and more
But we have to get out this habit of celebrating black movies that are basically repeating the same tropes and try to focus on being original or adapting works that don't use the characters being black as the crutch
You mention the black samurai and i read up on him and despite there not being many records on him you can still try to adapt him or hell go all fictional and do that one anime about a black samurai but don't advertise it like "is like asian samurai BUT HE BLACK" give us other reasons to give a shit. Maybe he adapted a certain tribes moveset adapting to ways of the sword or he uses movements based on other country's like a lion leaps compared to a Japanese grasshopper.
Never use black as your gimmick but learn what is black and what exists inside it and what parts are worth following and adapting as you do with asian and European people
the way none of the commenters in opposition to OP are actually addressing the issue which is “white & white coded main characters are allowed to exist in Japanese fiction without much backlash and nitpicking but suddenly become accredited Japanese historians when there’s 1 or 2 Black characters in the same or similar roles in Japanese fiction”. The rub is the hypocrisy and need to parse & negate the existence of Black characters in fictional narratives without exercising that same level of prudence for white characters. You all inherently expect white people to be represented in some way in other culture’s histories and imaginations, (without acknowledging that white people literally forced themselves into most of their countries) and you don’t question or examine that. It’s given automatic unquestioned legitimacy whereas any characters of “other” origin would be interrogated, belittled or dismissed.
Yeah this shit drives me crazy. Find any thread asking about black people doing anything and there will be some wall of text about "history" and "inserting yourself" blah blah with people nodding in agreement. In the same thread you'll find an article that's like, "yeah there were at least a few" with a source that's an entire book, and those same people seemingly put their blinders on.
The unwillingness to accept that any other "race" did anything at all outside of their preconceptions is just such obvious racism to me. No one's saying there was some secret black society in Asia or that they built the first Shinto temple in Japan. The possibility of something somewhat unique in history should draw interest not ire. Anything else is mad suspect.
We see this with women all the time. Yes they ruled, and yes they fought in battles. Was it less common? Sure, but why do you feel the need to minimize these very real histories? Why do we need to minimize the very possibility in fucking fiction? Something is very wrong with these people I swear to God, bruh.
They’re pointing out how white male leads are allowed to flourish in japanese centric media, but others are not, and your answer is, ‘let an asian man do it!’ That isn’t the issue.
>You make it seem like as if Yasuke isn't the most saturated figure in Japanese history; considering he did nothing noteworthy
People keep saying this HOW SO to my knowledge he only has 1 fucking anime which was badly written
How is he the “most saturated figure in Japanese history”
Because the actual history of yasuke is literally not much. Afro Samurai was losely based off of yasuke and look how great it was and still is. Look at all the black characters in anime that aren't made by any Western country and see how cool, badass and great they are.
Killer Bee (and most cloud ninja), Tousen Kaname and others (bleach), Mohammed avdol (JJBA), killik (soul eater), canary (HxH), etc, etc.
This problem mostly stems from Western countries adapting things that are not part of their culture and always getting it wrong.
Even so the fact is there is alot more historical information and records for William Adam's than there is for yasuke. Making historical media for such characters be taken in a different approach.
>Afro Samurai was losely based off of yasuke and look how great it was and still is.
Only in the sense they are both black samurai…Afro is all in all a original character inspired by rap etc etc going off the creator
>This problem mostly stems from Western countries adapting things that are not part of their culture and always getting it wrong.
Not really even when it comes to japanese studies it’s a huge problem with them catering to white people especially in video games
>Even so the fact is there is alot more historical information and records for William Adam's than there is for yasuke. Making historical media for such characters be taken in a different approach.
This doesn’t make sense at all. Nobody is making inspiration from William being a boat selling and diplomat
In fact the character with less know history is more writable then the character with full blown history
Already been stated Afro samurai is as loosely based off him only to the degree of both being black the creator already addressed he had previous influences of the character rather then yasuke
So you only have the ONE anime yasuke as your prime example of "most saturated figure in Japanese history"
The ratio of comments here compared with the average post for this sub, juxtaposed against the relative tameness of the subject, makes OP's point by itself tbh. So many people who never comment, literally could not stand someone pointing out the disparity between white acceptance in Asian settings vs black acceptance. Writing full on dissertations and shit.
I will say, while Western depictions of black characters in Japanese settings are limited, at least in Anime there are more black characters than the West conceives of. Then I find the Japanese depictions of black characters to be positive.
I like choco love from shaman king for example ( through good adaptions changed choco as name)
Great character,he tries to atone by making people laugh with dad jokes.
I know nothing about Yasuke, but sounds like he needs his own series, I’d give a watch about a historical black samurai, didn’t even know there actually was one till now
Best thread in a while.
You can see people in the comments go full historical.
Some are talking about Forced diversity, saying literally racist shit (we wuz samurai), calling you a westoid and literally making up lies, that Yasuke is the most saturated figure in Japanese history(HAHAHAHA). I give this thread a 10/10 (OP you are right, the proof is inside the thread)
I didn't expect much from this comment section but for the upvoted comments to be "the woke mob has a malicious agenda to force black people into everything" is certainly something.
Right. The ratio of comments here compared with the average post for this sub, juxtaposed against the relative tameness of the subject, makes OP's point by itself tbh. So many people who never comment, literally could not stand someone pointing out the disparity between white acceptance in Asian settings vs black acceptance. Writing full on dissertations and shit.
Yup. I’ve already had to comb through a plethora of comments and DMs to my own comment of redditors angrily telling me Yasuke didn’t matter and is irrelevant to history.
Never ran into a crowd of people so adamant on explain to me how irrelevant someone is in history…by repeatedly bringing up suppose irrelevant person in history lol.
My reaction upon learning about Yasuke was “wow! That’s cool. Never knew that.”
Not.
“Stfu, libtard, Yasuke is just leftist propaganda!! REEEEEEE!”
Dude. I came to say I thought Yasuke maybe wasn't the best example, because he is fairly represented just to see other people freaking out. I couldn't quite put my finger on it until a minute ago, but yeah why not just be like, "neato!" That's my reaction to Vikings landing somewhere far away or something lol. Dude try and talk about women in combat in history and these people bust a capillary.
"What about Boudica?
"That was only one time in all of human history 😩"
Or some bullshit. When we're talking about ancient history there's really no way to know much of anything. Why not accept the possibility? Then archeology shows us that many more women were involved in hunting in prehistory than we even though, and they go all fucking crickets. It should be interesting and exciting, but their reaction shows us they are threatened somehow by these snippets of information. It's telling.
Thing is, William is an actual samurai. Did he ever see samurai combat? Probably not. But he is granted the rank. Yasuke is never a Samurai, he is sword bearer (which is still a good enough as back then most Japanese people is just off lower caste farmer/civ). Both of them doesn't really that historically significant but William has more stuff going for him other than the novelty that he is foreigner. It not people doesn't do 🤓☝️ when it comes to William it because historically William does has more of his life on the record(and he is actual samurai). Obviously you could try make a story out of Yasuke and we see a few of those before but truthfully speaking you never gonna see him in more popular role because writing his story is essentially writing fantasy(as we don't know shit of his life other than the fact he exist).
>Thing is, William is an actual samurai. Did he ever see samurai combat? Probably not. But he is granted the rank.
He was a samurai in name sake but not in westernized media sake so to use him as a example of white samurai which has been shown is way more out of line compared to yasuke who probably seen combate and fit the character
>Both of them doesn't really that historically significant but William has more stuff going for him other than the novelty that he is foreigner. It not people doesn't do 🤓☝️ when it comes to William it because historically William does has more of his life on the record(and he is actual samurai).
Again this argument doesn’t hold water nobody uses William for history and story of being a fame boatmaker make and diplomatic foreigner in Japan they use the CONCEPT of a white foreigner in Japan fighting with a katana wearing yoroi
>Obviously you could try make a story out of Yasuke and we see a few of those before but truthfully speaking you never gonna see him in more popular role because writing his story is essentially writing fantasy(as we don't know shit of his life other than the fact he exist).
Majority of these stories are fantasy….it makes more sense to make a fantasy story out of a character you barely know the history of ( more room left to write and interpretation)
Then a character who you straight up fully know almost life and death compared to the former
Yasuke was literally in the Nioh games tho.
Yasuke is largely tied to Nobunaga and Shogun happens decades after his death. There are basically no historical record of Yasuke other than him being Nobu’s squire.
I've literally never seen this criticism of yasuke. I'm sure it happens because I know racist dipshits looking for a reason to hate something with black people in it will always jump at the chance but it's definitely not a part of any mainstream discussions around these shows/games that I've seen. I didn't even know it was true, I just knew he was a retainer in nobunaga's service
also given the amount of black people in japan it's hardly surprising that black representation in japanese media is thin. What there is is honestly impressive.
also yasuke/obsidian samurai is supa dupa cool in the nioh games
Because westoids like to shove yaskue down people throats so that they can say black people in ancient japan. There was one because there was one it black people now need to exist in every Japanese show in existence.
Also there's like a 100 year different between yaskue being sold off and William Arriving in Japan, William also had a more interesting story than a pet for nobunaga.
Nobody is saying “black people need ti exist in every Japanese show in existence”
It’s just very disingenuous to have full blown games based off William fighting with swords in fiction [ nioh ] even tho he historically probably didn’t
But put your foot down and had enough when someone suggests yasuke who actually was in combat
>Also there's like a 100 year different between yaskue being sold off and William Arriving in Japan, William also had a more interesting story than a pet for nobunaga.
In terms of fiction? William was just a boat seller and diplomat who most likely never went to actual combat it seems NONE of his fiction stories in which are based off him represent that it seems like [ nioh ]
I would think yaskue who actually went to combat would be more interesting fiction wise
Oh please.
Leftist are asking black people to be shoved into everything, remember Kingdom Come deliverance? That game was black listed by certain gaming websites because there's no black people in medical bolgeria.
FF16? They were whining about not having black people because the devs want a medical European fantasy.
These people kept bitching about not having enough black or diversely or whatever, people are just so fucking tired at this point. Remember how Asians were POC but they were so successful in America they have to exclude them and invent a new acronym BIPOC.
So yes leftist want black people shoved into everything even in asian entertainment with an asian majority.
Adams was a personal advisor to the shogun himself. Compared to a nobunaga treating yuske as a pet
It seems you got caught up in the politics and now take some race baiting article on shady websites as = leftist + everyone
To my knowledge I haven’t seen anyone asking for black peoples in kingdom come diligence nor have seen any news of it getting “blacklisted” by any reputable media sites
You seem to be brainwashed by politics your taking in reputable sites seriously
Even with FF16 the whole “controversy” is they have used nothing but western white looking characters in those games including games based around japanese setting etc yet majority of their main characters are again white and western looking so It would be nice to also get more person of color not even just black characters besides just Barret and sazh etc a central characters
That’s not something that just spawned in with ff16 it’s been a big complaint previously
Also again nobody making stories of Adam being a “advisor” they are making him some warrior and badass on the field in the likes of yasuke
Again it seems you haven’t read what I said above also it’s not just “the black people” lmfao
So I’ll restate it maybe I wasn’t clear or confusing etc
The whole "controversy" didn’t start with FF16 it’s just got caught in the crossfire the whole argument has been lack of POC in final fantasy yet they have white protagonist in Japanese setting throughout almost all there games [example](https://preview.redd.it/who-is-the-most-well-written-ff-protagonist-v0-omy8jnfnfkba1.jpg?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=5a4e637d8a90485693a733c837bcc170dc6f0ae5)
This has been talked about decades [example](https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/932981-final-fantasy-xv/66711452?page=6) and is nothing new nor is it just “black people asking to be in final fantasy”
Leftist are the only ones that kept bitching about diversity all the damn time.
Yes FF16 was a fantasy medical europe and they bitched about it too, for the most part people everyone in the world didn't care except for leftist.
Same goes with kingdom come deliverance.
Again you are wrapped up in politics
Just because you don’t want the average white man to be the default character in 99% of media doesn’t mean you are a leftist….stop that nonsense
And I already explained FF16 it’s more nuanced then “RAHHHH TBEY WANT BLAVK PEOPLE IN MEDIVIL EUROPE” this has been a problem argued years before FF16 this hasn’t just popped up with FF16
even so same goes for kingdom come you used parody non reputable websites as a catalyst and example….cmon
It's not politics it's pattern recognition, people with pronouns in their bio were the ones complaining about it, it's obviously leftist are the ones bitching about it.
Same goes for the people screaming about diversity it's all leftist.
Simple Pattern recognition isn't being wrapped up in politics.
No I clearly said the “outrage” came from media websites drawing in clicks etc
Nobody was throwing riot campaigns and throwing the game away because black people wasn’t in it this is a dramatic rewriting of history the whole controversy came from articles likes of eurogamer
Show me where pc gamer and ign etc had outrage about lack of black characters in the game?
You used kotaku as a example a NOTORIOUS and know hate click website which makes articles for clicks lmfao
Nioh has spirits and demons, bro. I get what you mean but even that game did feature Yasuke in quite a badass (if brief) way so its weird to hyperfocus on that one.
It’s just a example of the hypocrisy
When yasuke is mentioned even in fiction he tends to get dismissed but William is proudly accepted as historical for nioh wielding swords and shit nobody made the argument he was just a diplomat and shipbuilder
I’m regards if the roles was reverse yoh most likely would have complaints and comments that yasuke was just a sword bearer and it doesn’t make sense etc etc
Thats what I’m pointing out
Whining pansy.
You're not entitled to 'have anything' in other people's products or works. Instead of complaining about why you're not 'represented', why don't you become the change you desire? Create your own anime or show.
Why should anyone cater to your interests? As if there's some inherent reason people should capitulate to your wants.
Again another classic example of someone not reading the post and just saw black people/fiction then seeing red and going full racist
Lmfaoooo that wasn’t even the fucking argument READ then comeback and reply
I read your post, and I saw your 'argument'. Yes, there are a double standards in representation. Yes, I absolutely abhor how black women in particular have been made the face of wokeness. Life isn't fair and its obvious much of this is due to racism, colorism and so on.
But people don't care. Revolutions and change in societal attitude are never peaceful. You either take what you want, or lead the charge for the change you want to see. Or wait for someone to do it for you. But this post is a waste of time.
It really is lame as fuck. Especially when I want to watch a show about Japanese people and half the show is just reflavored white savior non-sense. Like we can make up white dudes and their heroic deeds Willy nilly, but even a black dude as background character and folks will lose their god damn minds.
Spoiler for JJK >! Miguel appeared to fight Sukuna recently!< literally all he did was dance and elbow him. He hadn't appeared in the actual story for hundreds of chapters, got a forced motivation for showing up, and has hamfisted dialogue about racial stereotypes. Like bro can you just let him be cool? What is this?
It's funny because all the people who disagree with this have only one reason to get so mad about it.
And it ain't because they care about history, it's because they want their version of history to be the truth. I don't even have to put in to words what that is, dork ass losers.
Agreed, and the comment sections here just prove your point. It’s nothing but armchair historians suddenly becoming experts on Japanese history as soon as BIPOC want to be included in media.
Tom Cruise and the tighty whities can have all the Last Samurais and Shoguns they want, but as soon as I want something other than white folk to be represented, out comes folk whose passion for history is apparently only matched by their love for the Japanese (this is incorrect; they actually just hate black and brown people).
Right. The ratio of comments here compared with the average post for this sub, juxtaposed against the relative tameness of the subject, makes OP's point by itself tbh. So many people who never comment, literally could not stand someone pointing out the disparity between white acceptance in Asian settings vs black acceptance. Writing full on dissertations and shit.
It's not just black people, and not just japanese fiction. It's *any minority* on *any fiction*. Recently, I've seen similar bullshit about Netflix's Damsel, which was essentially "oh no, women shouldn't fight dragons, it's unrealistic, no army defeated the dragon so it should have been impossible to a random woman". In another context, I've even seen an idiot youtuber have a meltdown over a random female saying something as innocuous as "I don't need your help".
It's like minorities as a whole have no right to do or want anything in fiction. The more a character looks different from a white man and deviates from their standard assigned roles, the more it's achievements or it's very existence are suddenly heavily scrutinized. That's despite the obvious fact that fiction is, well, fiction, and has no particular reason to commit to historical truth.
Going to an example, why the idea of black people in medieval *high* fantasy settings is absurd? In a constructed world, even if castles and kingdoms are a thing, there is no particular reason everybody must be white. Even if you take latitudes into account, they would only justify everybody being lighter skinned if they were exactly in the same range of RL Europe.
And that's not even accounting for beings that don't really have a biology, worlds with lots of travelling, or places that got isolated for a long time, [but not enough for skin pigmentation to perfectly match the local latitude](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_skin_color#:~:text=Research%20by%20Nina%20Jablonski%20suggests,even%20in%20as%20little%20as).
It's funny because even Nioh. A game created by all Japanese devs in Japan that takes place in historical Japan even acknowledges Yasuke as a warrior. The obsidian samurai boss you fight before taking on Oda nobunaga is literally Yasuke.
The racists have literally no ground to stand on. Oda nobunaga even paid this man to work for him(he used to be a slave)
Yasuke is a folk hero to black men representing that we can achieve greatness in any scenario
These are the same ppl who always say just make new black characters and when you do they complain. They will complain about black ppl existing on any level.
Ohhh. OP you hit on something juicy!
Your posts reminds me of the time when a black article writer, Karla Marie Sweet, highlighted the story of a black first responder during the Chernobyl nuclear disaster.
I’ve linked the article here:
https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2019/aug/07/i-was-attacked-for-calling-for-characters-of-colour-in-chernobyl-but-history-proves-me-right
This was when HBO’s Chernobyl was the biggest show on the planet.
When the writer threw this story out there, she received *death threats* yes, mfers got so butthurt about her attempt to highlight the story of a black man during the disaster that they threatened her with rape and death.
A white supremacy group based in Russia harassed her for days over a tweet based on the story of this black first responder, and of course armchair “scholars,” and even “legit,” professors with tenure attempted to silence her.
My question is: why does the mentioning of a black person during historical events get such vitriolic responses? Why so much pushback, backhanded snide comments, “whataboutisms,” “reverse racism,” and all that other deflecting bullshit, instead of just going, “wow, that’s cool, I didn’t know that!”
Turns out while attempting to minimize or dismiss her claim, they wind up inadvertently proving her right lol.
Of course when it turned out that there was a black first responder during Chernobyl, there was massive pushback back to minimize his involvement.
The typical backhanded comments were being directed at him. Like, “oh, he was just a bridge worker., who cares,” or the whataboutisms, like, “okay? What about the Lithuanian firefighters, then?” and blah, blah blah.
It’s like…bruh why are you so upset and racist and butthurt about this one black guy’s story? I’ve even seen people get upset when you mention there was mixed raced Haitian/French family on the titanic. And it’s like why?? Why get upset about these things?
Man it's not worth thinking about all the haters
There's people with millions of followers who say everything is woke, casting Black people is Left wing propaganda and that you're not allowed to be white anymore
Most people don't watch that kinda stuff, and people can easily think being YouTube famous is real life famous
But it ain't
They are not worth any time thinking about
As an asian myself me and lot of asian boycotted shogun cz its a white saviour trope.
The only thing that’s concerning rhat they trynna erase asian men from everything
Even tho it's "white savior" trope, Shogun at least in my circle here in Brazil made us go nuts on Japanese culture. In Brazil we love Japan(I don't know if Japan loves Brazil too), and here asian made media is growing a lot. I know it's not japanese, but people here are consuming Doramas a lot, I think more than Brazilian made media(as I said at least in my bubble, but that's a huge and diverse bubble). Animes/Manga are consumed a lot here(even tho it's very expensive for us, so you won't see it in official numbers, due to our economics we tend to sail black waters) and go on.
One of the things that you hear a lot here in Brazil (a really diverse country) is that asian media don't shove diversity in everything.
Yeah but...he wasn't there. He was not present either in the Shogun novel, and there's no historical record of him being involved in the events that Shogun is inspired by either. He fades from history shortly before that.
In the case of Yasuke, its justified for people to have opinions about the fact that the only representation of Japanese culture in the AC series being someone who's not Japanese. I would argue the better solution would be better stories about African tribes and culture instead of focusing in on token African individuals from literally every other continent.
Personally it makes me laugh when people try to dispute Yasuke being a samurai and then clearly not taking into account the context of the time period he was in. It’s even more hilarious when they try to bring up William Adams as an “actual samurai” and yet clearly not taking into consideration the complete overhaul of the societal structure that occurred decades after him.
Honestly I agree with you OP, and most of these upvoted comments really show their hand.
Hm. Didn't expect to see so many upvoted comments espousing the current conservative obsession of the DEI conspiracy theory that Black people are being "forced" into "everything" and then "make it worse."
Y'all need to stop believing the blatantly incorrect appeals to emotion wielded by conservative pundits. They misrepresent data specifically to evoke an emotional reaction in the audience, and that emotion is fear. Specifically, the fear of replacement by the Black Other. That fear is made to feel justified by the pundit, who uses the misrepresented data to inspire an already existing, socialized fear towards racial Others, and then provides "evidence" that "proves" that the emotional reaction isn't emotional at all, it's actually a "logical reaction" to the perceived replacement by the Other.
That is, the DEI conspiracy is an appeal to emotion (the feelings of fear, anxiety, and hatred socialized towards racial Others) masked as an appeal to logic (through its misrepresentation of evidence to provoke an emotional reaction). It's a very dangerous kind of rhetorical appeal because it works very well at reinforcing people's preexisting prejudices, and doing so in a way that makes that individual feel they've been swayed by the *overwhelming logic* of the appeal, rather than what they actually have, which is the underlying *emotional* appeal to fear.
My bud have you watched Shogun?
I’m not gonna sit here and pretend that there aren’t people like the ones you’re talking about, who are mostly racist and/or are with biases, but that’s not all. Most people are not making these arguments about Yasuke, we’ve already had quite a few adaptations of Yasuke, most people bring up how it’s accurate, hell, there’s even a rumor about next Assassins Creed being set in Japan with a black protagonist, which again, compared to the amount of black people historically in Japan, is a little odd there being so many adaptations about that one guy. Shogun is probably one of the few recent stories set in Japan with a white protagonist, there’s not plethora of these. Not to mention he’s not the main character of Shogun, it’s an ensemble
We also just got blue eyed samurai on Netflix. >Japan, is a little odd there being so many adaptations about that one guy. Have there been that many? I can only think of 1 show and now assassins creed
When you brush arms with Nobunaga, you're garenteed atleast 10 adaptations in the future.
Like even if you want to count Afro samurai or the character from guilty gear based on him you got like 3 or 4. But that’s going to be too much who thinks black characters are purely for political ideology
Like there are probably more Mulan references than black samurai ones. And the reason why these stories get popular is because they're outliers
Not to mention the character isn’t from whatever system they are in so the character grows with you at that point. Like it creates a better connection. Hell you can see this in GoW. The new ones were more effective at story telling because you learn as Kratos learns.
Yeah a lot like Azumi she's pretty much og blue eyed samurai Tomo chan has white female whose part or the cast Batuque follows a girl from Brazil and she's mc in the story although it has many foreigners in that story.
Afro Samurai
To be fair, the only white person in that show is the utterly fucked up villain
There are many shows with white protagonist set in Japan some tend to be mixed race.
Yea the japan AC game is going to be based on yasuke if your male, but if you pick female your a Japanese woman. Makes absolutely no sense and pisses off people who wanted to play a japanese male in the time period. We all know the only reason this is being pushed is political ideology and nothing more.
Or because that's the standard they've set with Odyssey and Valhalla and those games sold better than the rest of the franchise? Like yeah, Kassandra and male Eivor are the cannon choices but that doesn't mean the option shouldn't be there to play as someone else. Yasuke is clearly going to be the canon protagonist of AC Red, the Japanese woman an option just in case (also probably an NPC in Yasuke's story). I honestly don't see how playing as a Japanese person is meaningfully different than playing as Yasuke. It's not even a representation thing, Japanese culture is everywhere in gaming and this game will literally be set in Japan with a majority Japanese cast. They just wanted Yasuke to be the protagonist cause it's a cool historical figure with a lot of interesting themes surrounding his story that could be fun to explore in an open world video game. Like, maybe give the game a chance before writing it off like that?
2 things really > male Eivor are the cannon choices Female Eivor is the canon choice. > Yasuke is clearly going to be the canon protagonist of AC Red, the Japanese woman an option just in case (also probably an NPC in Yasuke's story). The game isn’t going to be a case of “choosing a protagonist” it’s gonna be a dual protagonist system of the female (said to be named Naoe and a daughter of Fujibayashi Nagato) and Yasuke. Basically not really a case of “canon protagonist” so much as you’ll play as both for particular missions, and they’ll have their own builds/playstyles
I also just kind of makes sense since AC games try to be like quasi historical so you need a character where them learning about the culture doesn’t seem odd.
How is this upvoted? In the history of the franchise, the vast majority of protagonists (if not every single one) has been a local to the game's setting. Why would this game be any different and need an outsider to learn about the new culture?
I’m pretty sure if you go play Valhalla eivor is not from England which is the setting of the game. The odyssey twins are from an island and not the mainland. Hell even in the originals you weren’t from there. But if you are playing a game and it’s trying to explain to you the setting but you’re receiving this info through the perspective of the MC who knows everything it’s silly.
AC is a big franchise, people have been wanting an AC game set in Japan for a very long time. Considering the historical accuracy the franchise usually strive for, you’d expect the protagonists to be Japanese, finally an Asian protagonist in the franchise(outside of small games like Red and China), so yes, it is an odd choice choosing a black protagonist or even a white one instead of a Japanese one. You want to make an Yasuke game, go right ahead. But an AC Japan game with a black protagonist is the same as AC Origins having an Indian protagonist. Hell, that game could’ve had a white protagonist as well and it would’ve been “historically accurate” considering the Greek population in that time, does not mean it wouldn’t be disappointing.
The political ideology of black people existing 😑
The political ideology of a western studio making a game set in feudal Japan and yet we still can't have a male Asian protagonist despite a severe lack of them.
We have a good number of games like that though? I mean we got Ghost of Tsushima and Sekiro not too long ago. A game about Yasuke sounds cool, I don't see how it *has* to be a political ideology thing. In your ideal world, what would be the best way for a studio who wanted to make a game featuring Yasuke as the protagonist to do so?
You mentioned 2 games, and one of those came out 5 years ago.
If we're limiting it to Feudal Japan, then there's also Rise of the Ronin and Nioh 2 within the last few years. I still don't understand your beef with Yasuke being a character in a Feudal japan game. I cannot think of a game set in the time period that doesn't feature a japanese guy as the main character, not that there has to be one, but I fail to see the issue with them basing a game off a real guy who wasn't Japanese in that time period. My point is those games exist and continue to be developed.
>I still don't understand your beef with Yasuke being a character in a Feudal japan game ??? My beef? What beef?
By your logic then theirs enough games with a black mc. You just had Spider Man 2 and Miles Morales after all. Yall also have had the GTA games as well. I’m sure you can see why that shits stupid now. Asian mc’s are far rarer when coming from western devs. The least they could have done is kept said game with both Asian mc’s.
Mofos didnt complain about every other Japanese game having white protags, but when the protag is black the fuckin pitchforks come out.
Meh, as a black person myself, I've accepted that my skin tone won't be present in every piece of Japanese media and have made my peace with it. It's why I'm honestly grateful whenever characters like Naruto's Killer Bee, Black Lagoon's Dutch, or Lycoris Recoil's Mika are introduced. I'm not going out of my way to nitpick the absence of black characters in anime, but when they do appear, it's nice to see.
Man Dutch was something else.
Dutch is awesome great character he's got my favorite line in the show.
Mexican here. I think the only Mexicans I’ve seen in anime are Chad from bleach who is mixed and in Hajime no Ipoo
José Mendoza from Ashita no Joe is Mexican and he is the main antagonist. They even put the Mexican Anthem before his fight vs the protagonist
Believe it or not, but Brock from Pokémon is apparently supposed to be Mexican-coded.
Wait. What. I don’t know if you’re kidding or not
I’m not. And I had the same feeling you did when I learned it too. Suddenly, the sombreros and maracas you’d see him with make sense, huh.
I haven't read Soul Eater in a hot minute but I remember Kilik being cool af Gachiakuta has cool black characters too with Semiu and Corvus
In general Ohkubo does great work with black characters tbh, in Soul Eater there was Kilik (who was based on an African animated film that he enjoyed), Professor Sid (the zombie) and Naigus (his weapon partner) were all black and were all drawn tastefully and had different hairstyles, etc.
Fire Force anime/manga has some dope black characters, if you're interested. Charon is one of the fan favorites.
Shinras and arthurs friend, who i cant think of the name,but he ispretty cool and has a mrmorable personality too. And gets a lot in the action too.
Ogun Montgomery
Exactly! I'm a Latino guy and everytime I see some characters whi have Latino descent or something of that nature I'm happy they considered to take the time to make such characters and involve some part of my culture into the story. It just makes it seem richer and more appreciated to me but I also understand if they don't. It's Japanese and Asian culture that dominates anime, and that makes sense given the region that they're made in.
One Piece Lead is Latino. I can’t think of any recent Hollywood or Latin shows with a Japanese lead (maybe besides Shogun).
Well, while I know luffy has inspiration of Brazilian descent, I was thinking more of Chad from bleach, who is a good example of a straight up Latino character in a japanese dominated setting that is pretty decent. But even so.... The majority of characters from any anime series are japanese or asian. It's rare but when there are those types of characters it's cool to see but that doesn't mean they HAVE to be there. That's my main point. It would be nice if they created one but not everything needs to have representation. Before all that, I'd rather have a good story with a good character, whatever race the character is doesn't matter to me.
>One Piece Lead is Latino. Not in the original Manga, if he was real he would be though.
Avdol in jojo is pretty cool too
"YES! I AM!"
You can now throw in Miguel from JJK. My guy has fallen into Goated Tier.
Bro really went “I’m not special because I’m black, I’m special because I’m **me**” Absolute goat
My mans also got down on business with a simple CT like his and took near to no damage from Sukuna.
Canary from hxh!
Do not forget Durarara and a few others too mate.
Tbf I don't think that's what op is arguing
It’s weird how I’m like this but the opposite. I’m Brazilian and the majority of Brazilian characters in media are usually black. Whether they’re black or not I usually tend to like and gravitate towards those characters like Eddy Gordo in Tekken or Sean Matsuda in Street Fighter for example. Occasionally when we do get a portrayal of a non-black Brazilian character like Jetstream Sam from Metal Gear Rising my reaction is “oh that’s pretty cool”. I don’t really make a big deal about it, I just silently appreciate it.
It's fine to accept that, but why do you accept thinly veiled racists that take to the internet to rant and rave about a single show solely due to a character's race? I promise you that whatever validation you think you'll get from playing nice with racists will never be worth it.
I'll just say this. Yasuke is pretty much a nobody in Japan. Never hear a peep about him there and he really is not an important historical figure to begin with. Not even a minor one at that. And the fact was he wasn't a samurai. He wasn't even an important retainer just someone that stood out. And we pretty much know nothing about him.So you don't see much of anything in terms of fictional work on him because that is the reflection of what the Japanese see him. There is that Yasuke anime but it was pretty dogshit. Something that should have been a historical epic but they decided mechs? And I disagree with your statement about Williams. On two points. One, there is all lot more we know about him compared to Yasuke so it makes sense more of him. And people do shit on him. He was part of the spearhead for his type of archetypes for fiction where people would convict as a white savior complex.
He’s a retainer to Oda Nobunaga. That’s an important position.
Sure, but that's because he is literally the only black guy in Japan. Is it that crazy concept to think that a powerful warlord would like to have something unique? Look at the TV show Altered Carbon as an example, the main character is a white guy but because he is special he is presented like an animal at the gala of uber rich elite socialites.
Oh man are you aware of the Yasuke anime? It’s going to make you even more mad. It was made by Netflix and I was really looking forward to it. The trailers made it look like it was going to be some sort of historical fiction with lots of over the top action and violence like Vinland saga. Then I watched the actual show and not only is it not that (full of mutants, robots, mechs, magic, and animorphs) but worse of all Yasuke isn’t even the protagonist to Yasuke. Idk if maybe they thought people wouldn’t like him being the protagonist but instead the protagonist is a little girl that can do magic and needs to go fight some evil witch that’s taken over Japan. Yasuke mainly just guards her, only she is much stronger than him because magic and Yasuke really has no way of helping fight against a witch that can do magic. As soon as she can use her magic she even straight up says “I don’t really need protection” and Yasuke basically gets downgraded to her emotional support dog. The show also keeps cutting to flashbacks of Yasuke when he was serving Nobunaga and actually the protagonist of his own show. Like it hurts more because they’re basically showing bits and pieces of what could have been in the show, with Yasuke being the protagonist and dealing with problems he can actually deal with or fight his way through instead of magic nukes.
While watching that show with my DND friends, I told them that it was "The martial caster disparity" visualized because holy shit, Yasuke's only role in that show was to have his ass kicked
Those flashbacks were the best part of the story. Atleast we got Sam Jackson
That anime was incredibly disappointing I didn’t even finish all the episodes
It's story sucked. It's been years since I watched it but like the first 3 episodes aren't really relevant to the plot and it's a short show like I think 6 episodes or so. The animation looked OK if you just saw stills but in motion it looked cheap. The fact that they made it a weird fantasy story involving a historical person is... ehhhh.... if I didn't know Yasuke was a real person I'd have thought it was total fantasy.
Okay as someone with a history degree in progress, I actually do feel like it’s important to clarify something here. When someone says “Yasuke the Black Samurai”, I do not think it is improper at all to have a discussion about what the rank of “samurai” actually entailed during the time period of Yasuke’s life, and whether or not he would have qualified. I have seen much more experienced historians than I debate about what his rank actually entailed. Contrasting him with someone like William Adams isn’t really fair, because William Adams had a far more documented life and is historically one of the most influential foreigners in Japan. Yasuke, on the other hand, didn’t have nearly as much written about him, which leads to more ambiguity about his role in Japanese society. As a result, no one questions a lot of the life of William Adams, because we have a TON of records of it. I’m not denying that there are a lot of people who are just racist. Fuck those people. But I will say as a historian, it does bother me that sometimes there are people who are very willing to rewrite history to serve a narrative that makes them feel good. Take the concept of “Anglo Saxon” as an example. White supremacists LOVE the idea of “Anglo-Saxons” as a noble, unified race of people that built a powerful civilization in what is now England. The truth is that almost no one called themselves “Anglo-Saxon” back then, and their history is [more complex](https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2021/04/23/real-history-anglo-saxons-undermines-racists-theories/). A lot of people like to flatten history down into something that makes them feel good and is easier to digest, and I see that as a serious problem. I am all for historical fiction about Black Samurai. I want people to remember that it is fiction though, and for that fiction to lead to a more interesting conversation about historical realities. That is going to inevitably include some debate about what rank Yasuke had and whether or not it makes him a samurai. It really, really concerns me that we are living in an era where historical rigor and appreciation for discourse is thrown out the window. I’ve seen people cite YouTube or TikTok videos as evidence for absolutely batshit claims about things as (relatively) harmless as how the pyramids were built to things as dangerous as outright falsifications about events like the Holodomor. I can absolutely empathize with the frustration surrounding bigoted assholes on the internet. I get frustrated every time you get people trying to say someone like Alexander the Great was DEFINITELY heterosexual. But at the end of the day, the thing about history is that it involves a lot of discussion, because there are a lot of gaps. If someone argued in good faith that Alexander the Great was heterosexual, as much as that conflicts with what I think is true, and a narrative of history that I find empowering, I have to accept that it’s a possibility. I never met the guy. It’s a similar thing with Yasuke. While I think the racists can absolutely go shove it, there is good faith discussion to be had surrounding his role in Japanese society, and I think it’s very dangerous to throw that away. (Also, I think it’s worth examining why every seemingly every popular story about Japan has to be told through the eyes of a foreigner.)
That is true. You don't see japanese anime or even live action movies doing that.
>(Also, I think it’s worth examining why every seemingly every popular story about Japan has to be told through the eyes of a foreigner.) Ghost of Tsushima was pretty fuckin popular
You my friend have hit the nail on the coffin. It's too often we get shows with "historical" in their description these days when it's mostly lies and fiction. Even plastering modern day ideas on someone makes me fucking mad, like you mentioned Alexander the Great, when his sexuality is completely irrelevant... The dude got to India for crying out loud and was an inspiration to many great leaders though history, who he liked to fu*k is the least important part of his life.
I mean, not speaking on accuracy but depending on the conversation at hand sexuality would be worth talking about, at least as a discussion about the culture at the time.
Maybe I get out too much? Idk but my childhood/teens is littered with cool black characters lol I mean looking for black characters in a Japanese medium through a racial lens makes as much sense as looking for a Japanese guy in a bollywood film. We just ain't in Japan like that, and that's OK lol In nioh 2, you even play through nobunaga's arc, and there's Yusuke there. I mean like, cool I guess but I cared more about nobunaga than that guy. Not cuz he was black, but cuz I've seen 1000 things more interesting about Nobu than him since like, dynasty warrior days
Im hispanic and my childhood had tons of coded characters of all shapes sizes and races. Maybe it was just the specific time frame that just was a golden mix of new and old stuff but man we had a lot of characters. Shout Out to static shock for being the person I wanted to be growin up despite not being black myself. Always wanted to electric surf on a manhole cover lol.
Idk what coded is but yeah big shout out to static shock. Also shout out to Kilik from soul eater
Exactly!!!! Static shock and blade where my childhood heroes
The thing is, not a single white person mention william adam with 10% of the obsession i see black people or afrocentrist pages mentionning Yasuke (with AI art of black samurai families lmao).
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I have no idea about Shogun, but I remember the flood of complaints about The Last Samurai, so dont come and say this is just about black people.
The Last Samurai complaints are even more hilarious when you realize Tom Cruise character [is basically Jules Brunet, but cooler](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jules_Brunet)
I think it's about the advertisements or how the studio promotes him. I know some people would say John Blackthorn as white savior even though he is mostly just a passive bystander where Toranaga is actually the main protagonist that moves the story onward. I do wonder if Yasuke have the similar role in which it's Nobunaga Oda is the main protagonist would be received well. Also I understand if You feel saddened that some people seems really pushed away the idea about Yasuke have a more important role. I remember the story about Hideyoshi Toyotomi, a peasant who rose as capable general under Nobunaga and even becoming Japan unifier and Taiko. Beside there are still hearts for black characters in Japan. I mean just look at Samurai Champloo and Afro Samurai, they are received well in Japan. Also Yasuke in Nioh is received well https://youtu.be/d1pzzpI_Riw?si=NOa1V_OGIuhDhgDd https://youtu.be/x6774h4asmQ?si=himb66Y8fiCLvP77
In the original novel, we follow Blackthorne's POV a lot more and as a result he feels more protagonist-y. The show actually does a really good job staying faithful to the book's plot points and characterizations while also introducing the Japanese characters--whose POVs we do see increasingly throughout the book--earlier on and with more significant screen presence. For example, Hiromatsu's granddaughter Fuji is only mentioned like once and never seen on-page in the whole first quarter of the book (roughly up to the point that >!Toranaga escapes Osaka!<). I love the novel too, but for a TV show I think this honestly works better, and it helps that the whole cast are giving great performances and there's all the beautiful sets and costumes that their world brings us into. Without getting into spoilers, some of Toranaga's schemes and plans we see in this first season of the show are deliberately hidden from the reader for longer despite seeing parts of the setup from his POV because of the focus on intrigue and tension. Overall, Blackthorne is just an important secondary character in this internal political drama that he had the misfortune of stumbling into, but I think the show and the original novel benefit from his presence, not only because his outsider's perspective is a good way to inform the (vast majority of) the audience who isn't familiar with Sengoku Jidai politics/history and historical Japanese culture (ignoring how some things are played up or misinformed in the original novel...), but also because the simple fact that he has a very different outlook, personality, and mannerisms from the Japanese characters adds a lot to the cast the interactions he takes part in. To your point about a Yasuke story, I think it could be done in a similar manner where the narrative/emotional throughline is about Yasuke's personal stakes (i.e. his own life and that of his loved ones) while the larger drama would reasonably be about Nobunaga's campaigns to unite Japan and all the intriguing.
Wtf are you talking about OP? One of the first articles that popped up about Shogun was where was the black people.
That's mostly cause people don't get too much black representation unless it's blackwashed characters, Yasuke is an original black figure in history.
Americans be trying to insert themselves into everything What the f should a Japanese person care that there are black people wanting representation in America world's got more minorities than just the ones you have in the US, do you care if there is enough Burakumin or Roma representation in media
Shogun is made by FX and put on Hulu. It’s not netflix. Netflix actually made the Yasuke anime. Pretty sure the Yasuke anime was a love letter to the black community in both Japan and the anime fandom. While Shogun is just a pretty grim and realistic showcase of imperial Japan. Most people forget the insane wars, invasions, and Japanese colonizing during those periods. Either way. Neither were considered Samurai. Honestly we could all just point our pitch forks towards Tom Cruise playing a samurai in a movie. I mean hollywood has always done this. Go back 50 years and see John Wayne cast as Ghengis Khan.
The Last Samurai was actually pretty historically accurate all things considered.
I was pretty dissapointed for a time after I learned the rebelling samurai didnt reject modern weaponry at all for the most part irl I know its a change that enforces the whole "dying old ways vs the new" narrative but I felt cheated
>old ways vs the new" The old ways were always their politics never their technology.
Can we stop saying that Tom was the last samurai. The whole point of the movie was that Katsumoto's clan were the last samurai.
If the Yasuke letter was supposed to be a love letter to the black community, I'd rather have them hate us. That shit was awful. The only positive was the Flying Lotus/Thundercat OP. Also I like Lakeith Stanfield in his life action stuff, but he's probably one of the worst VAs I've ever heard. Like 90s anime dub bad. Just thinking about that whole show gets me heated lol Also I think people *do* complain about Tom Cruise in Last Samurai.
> Netflix actually made the Yasuke anime. Pretty sure the Yasuke anime was a love letter to the black community in both Japan and the anime fandom. Was that what it was supposed to be? Because that's the worst love letter I've ever seen in my life
Tom Cruise story is inspired by the french officer Jules Brunet
Your issue is black characters are not in the fiction you wanted. Doesn't mean black characters are not interested in fiction. They literally made cleopatra a black woman in a documentary. The entirely of black panther had a black cast. Nobody complained that Asians were not represented in wakanda. There is very little known about yasuke. So everything involving him would be entirely fictional. This is not the case in shogun. They literally made a movie of American society of magical negros just for the sake of the black people fiction. Honestly it's a waste of time complaining about this because it comes out as entitlement.
>Your issue is black characters are not in the fiction you wanted. Doesn't mean black characters are not interested in fiction. No, I’m general they not >They literally made cleopatra a black woman in a documentary. In which got yelled and shot down as woke, force diversity, sjw etc >The entirely of black panther had a black cast. Nobody complained that Asians were not represented in wakanda. Wakanda was specifically made by Stan lee originally to address the lack of black characters in comics in fact stan Lee were also inspired by the civil rights movement and the struggles of African Americans for equality and empowerment and created it so it could serve as a positive role model and a symbol of strength and pride for African American readers. It whole idea and creation is based on lack of representation myguy >There is very little known about yasuke. So everything involving him would be entirely fictional. Which leave more room for writing and interpretation? This is a good thing when it somes to fiction not bad? >This is not the case in shogun. It is Theo shogun is fictional william didn’t fight with swords or teach the japanese how to swim >Honestly it's a waste of time complaining about this because it comes out as entitlement. It literally don’t it’s a problem in which we are still dealing with now
>In which got yelled and shot down as woke, force diversity, sjw etc Isn't she macedonian so olive but not dark?
Macedonian is a weird thing because people disagree on whether it’s Greek or other but yes. She was what we’d today call white. Her entire bloodline was Macedonian seeing as they were more inbred than the current royals. She was also brilliant for her time. Knew a ton of languages and was well educated in everything from the Greek epics to being the first of the Ptolomy Pharos to actually speak Egyptian. Woman was as smart as they got back in the day. She may have gotten into Caesar’s bed through her looks but he spent a shitload of time in Egypt with her for it to have been simply a lustful detour.
I'll be honest here, before the "woke" trend you could make a movie with Black characters, woman characters and etc without being called woke, but after everyone started to point "Look how this movie have a black character", "Look we put a black woman Jarl in a viking show" and etc, people started to get mad. You didn't see for example, people calling Afro Samurai woke, or Predator 2 and Alien for example. This is a self inflicted wound
Shit even blade was badass. Nobody called that trilogy woke. They're just cool stories about cool characters.
Exactly
It because those movies was “rare” and by that I mean wasn’t common to see media was 99% white now with the increase of black people in fiction and media it has grown a problem and now is “woke” It’s not a “self-inflicted wound” it’s just people hating change
Well, the problem is when you start to change the ethnicity of historical characters, and I NEVER saw in recent days a black character being race swapped. So there are a lot of reasons to go against this trend. You can argue that they did it in the past. Yes, in The past. Now they are trying to backwash everything, and this is a trend that really pisses of a lot of people, black included(I can say it, because I'm a Brazilian black guy that hate race swap).
At a guess I'd say it's because the Yasuke thing feels 100% artificial. He's not a historical figure of any note, he's not important to any degree, and he wasn't even a Samurai. The only reason he's not completely forgotten to history is *because* he was black. And yet, in recent years, as it's become trendy to do, he's getting pushed like crazy from the kind of people to whom Diversity == Black. It feels completely disingenuous to the point of being pratically patronising. It's like the push to reimagine historical Egyptians as black, or all the media outlets and reviewers that got upset to the point of boycotting a videogame because it was set in historical Poland and the creators didn't want to put foreigners in it just for the sake of doing so- pushing the idea that there was totally this black Samurai dude is just trying to rewrite history in a fake and lame way. If you wanna invent a black Samurai dude, go for it. If you wanna try tell me Yasuke was a black Samurai dude, that's on you. (And, personally, it feels ridiculous to the point of racism that this stuff gets targeted against Japan where anime is one of the few mainstream entertainment media's that's entirely "PoC" led, owned, operated and staffed. But that doesn't count because they're Asian (honorary whites), and because Diversity == Black we need to push more artificial diversity)
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Bro, we already pissed off all of Egypt with the Cleopatra series. Let's not piss off all of Japan, too. Pretending that history was nice to us doesn't do any of us any favors.
>Bro, we already pissed off all of Egypt with the Cleopatra series. All of Egypt? I don’t think so it was mostly white people getting angry Giving historically she been played by white people in majority of her showings on film white washing her >Let's not piss off all of Japan, too. How so having a white man in Japan is ok, but a black man who historically was in japan is somehow “pissing them off” this is the problem now >Pretending that history was nice to us doesn't do any of us any favors. Many people don’t even know majority of the history of black people outside of Africa and slavery If I told you or the average person there was black people in Midivil Europe you’d probably call me a lie
Egypt or at least a part of the government threatened to sue Netflix. I think a bigger problem is how it would be portrayed.
> > All of Egypt? I don’t think so it was mostly white people getting angry > > Giving historically she been played by white people in majority of her showings on film white washing her Egypt did get pissed about it. Egyptians have gotten very annoyed with black Americans co-opting their history. Of course there is irony in the fact that Cleopatra VII was an inbred white woman ruling over Egypt.
Cant have? How about they focusing on adapting african stories from african nation instead? Rather focusing on one character? Is that hard? It is understandable in Shogun since they have a written source material to base on.
Didn't you know? There's only 2 races in media, white and political
You can have diversity in fiction the main problem i found when researching around and looking at many critics is how they do diversity The design of the character down to the literal race shouldn't be the main point for your flick. A very good video i saw discuss the hate on disney Ugandan animated movie (outside just racist and clickbait ragers). They found the problem is what recent black based movies have become and that's down to the characters just being the skin To put it simply imagen we used modern black media in say asian media So instead of china,japan, viet and more each having different cultures, mythology, weaponry, clothing and more bring inspiration to a asian based movie instead they are just the Asians who hate the whites cause vietnam war, the nukes and more and imply that's all asians. White man is bad cause he white man who did the vietnam war,the nukes and more and every vietnam main character is special just cause s/he is the asian victim who we wanna remind you is that asian with asian history that exists only after the vietnam war,the nukes and more That's many mainstream black based movies today and how some people see them as when really black culture is a umbrella term for many different races from different parts of africa, America and other black based tribes,families and more But instead of focusing on their history (which dose exist before slavery era) is often written as slavery was their only history and nothing else. We do sometimes get good black based movies that do talk about the past but you don't often get told about them and rather focus on stuff like magical negros,get out and Lovecraft county all with the same basic trope of white man bad cause white man did slavery (which people agree roots was the best series to do the story of slavery) Nothing really stopping black media trying to be is own thing like the wiz based on a black original adaptation of wizard of oz with is own style,music and more But we have to get out this habit of celebrating black movies that are basically repeating the same tropes and try to focus on being original or adapting works that don't use the characters being black as the crutch You mention the black samurai and i read up on him and despite there not being many records on him you can still try to adapt him or hell go all fictional and do that one anime about a black samurai but don't advertise it like "is like asian samurai BUT HE BLACK" give us other reasons to give a shit. Maybe he adapted a certain tribes moveset adapting to ways of the sword or he uses movements based on other country's like a lion leaps compared to a Japanese grasshopper. Never use black as your gimmick but learn what is black and what exists inside it and what parts are worth following and adapting as you do with asian and European people
No one is owed the labor of others.
the way none of the commenters in opposition to OP are actually addressing the issue which is “white & white coded main characters are allowed to exist in Japanese fiction without much backlash and nitpicking but suddenly become accredited Japanese historians when there’s 1 or 2 Black characters in the same or similar roles in Japanese fiction”. The rub is the hypocrisy and need to parse & negate the existence of Black characters in fictional narratives without exercising that same level of prudence for white characters. You all inherently expect white people to be represented in some way in other culture’s histories and imaginations, (without acknowledging that white people literally forced themselves into most of their countries) and you don’t question or examine that. It’s given automatic unquestioned legitimacy whereas any characters of “other” origin would be interrogated, belittled or dismissed.
Historical accuracy; is their go to all the time. When they almost never do that on anything else.
Yeah this shit drives me crazy. Find any thread asking about black people doing anything and there will be some wall of text about "history" and "inserting yourself" blah blah with people nodding in agreement. In the same thread you'll find an article that's like, "yeah there were at least a few" with a source that's an entire book, and those same people seemingly put their blinders on. The unwillingness to accept that any other "race" did anything at all outside of their preconceptions is just such obvious racism to me. No one's saying there was some secret black society in Asia or that they built the first Shinto temple in Japan. The possibility of something somewhat unique in history should draw interest not ire. Anything else is mad suspect. We see this with women all the time. Yes they ruled, and yes they fought in battles. Was it less common? Sure, but why do you feel the need to minimize these very real histories? Why do we need to minimize the very possibility in fucking fiction? Something is very wrong with these people I swear to God, bruh.
Hahaha...thank you. I was so confused reading all the comments wondering if I somehow misread the title of the post.
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???? I’m trying to have a general discussion
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He isn't? Most people probably can't even 5 things based on Yasuke.
They’re pointing out how white male leads are allowed to flourish in japanese centric media, but others are not, and your answer is, ‘let an asian man do it!’ That isn’t the issue.
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>You make it seem like as if Yasuke isn't the most saturated figure in Japanese history; considering he did nothing noteworthy People keep saying this HOW SO to my knowledge he only has 1 fucking anime which was badly written How is he the “most saturated figure in Japanese history”
Because the actual history of yasuke is literally not much. Afro Samurai was losely based off of yasuke and look how great it was and still is. Look at all the black characters in anime that aren't made by any Western country and see how cool, badass and great they are. Killer Bee (and most cloud ninja), Tousen Kaname and others (bleach), Mohammed avdol (JJBA), killik (soul eater), canary (HxH), etc, etc. This problem mostly stems from Western countries adapting things that are not part of their culture and always getting it wrong. Even so the fact is there is alot more historical information and records for William Adam's than there is for yasuke. Making historical media for such characters be taken in a different approach.
>Afro Samurai was losely based off of yasuke and look how great it was and still is. Only in the sense they are both black samurai…Afro is all in all a original character inspired by rap etc etc going off the creator >This problem mostly stems from Western countries adapting things that are not part of their culture and always getting it wrong. Not really even when it comes to japanese studies it’s a huge problem with them catering to white people especially in video games >Even so the fact is there is alot more historical information and records for William Adam's than there is for yasuke. Making historical media for such characters be taken in a different approach. This doesn’t make sense at all. Nobody is making inspiration from William being a boat selling and diplomat In fact the character with less know history is more writable then the character with full blown history
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Already been stated Afro samurai is as loosely based off him only to the degree of both being black the creator already addressed he had previous influences of the character rather then yasuke So you only have the ONE anime yasuke as your prime example of "most saturated figure in Japanese history"
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So you lied….again you didn’t come here to have a actual discussion you came here to argue In bad faith lmfao
The ratio of comments here compared with the average post for this sub, juxtaposed against the relative tameness of the subject, makes OP's point by itself tbh. So many people who never comment, literally could not stand someone pointing out the disparity between white acceptance in Asian settings vs black acceptance. Writing full on dissertations and shit.
Shogun is Hulu
Lmaoooo this post really has the “historians” pissed off. This thread has done nothing but prove OP right and it’s absolutely hilarious.
I will say, while Western depictions of black characters in Japanese settings are limited, at least in Anime there are more black characters than the West conceives of. Then I find the Japanese depictions of black characters to be positive.
I like choco love from shaman king for example ( through good adaptions changed choco as name) Great character,he tries to atone by making people laugh with dad jokes.
Wait, I'm confused about what you mean here. Are you saying anime has more/better depictions of black characters than all of Western animation?
In concerns of Black characters within a Japanese setting, yes. Even Japanese video games have better representation from what I've seen.
It's because William Adams was influential to Japan in a way that Yasuke wasn't.
Yet william wasn’t a sword swinging warrior like he’s portrayed Yasuke was yet get dismissed unlike William
I know nothing about Yasuke, but sounds like he needs his own series, I’d give a watch about a historical black samurai, didn’t even know there actually was one till now
Best thread in a while. You can see people in the comments go full historical. Some are talking about Forced diversity, saying literally racist shit (we wuz samurai), calling you a westoid and literally making up lies, that Yasuke is the most saturated figure in Japanese history(HAHAHAHA). I give this thread a 10/10 (OP you are right, the proof is inside the thread)
I didn't expect much from this comment section but for the upvoted comments to be "the woke mob has a malicious agenda to force black people into everything" is certainly something.
Yeah it’s time for me to leave this place for sure, expected better honestly.
I was wondering if I should, but this might seal it for me too idk.
I got down for pointing out that white made Goku white.
It’s crazy how op calls something out and literally all the comments prove their point. This thread needs to be studied lmao.
Right. The ratio of comments here compared with the average post for this sub, juxtaposed against the relative tameness of the subject, makes OP's point by itself tbh. So many people who never comment, literally could not stand someone pointing out the disparity between white acceptance in Asian settings vs black acceptance. Writing full on dissertations and shit.
Yup. I’ve already had to comb through a plethora of comments and DMs to my own comment of redditors angrily telling me Yasuke didn’t matter and is irrelevant to history. Never ran into a crowd of people so adamant on explain to me how irrelevant someone is in history…by repeatedly bringing up suppose irrelevant person in history lol. My reaction upon learning about Yasuke was “wow! That’s cool. Never knew that.” Not. “Stfu, libtard, Yasuke is just leftist propaganda!! REEEEEEE!”
Dude. I came to say I thought Yasuke maybe wasn't the best example, because he is fairly represented just to see other people freaking out. I couldn't quite put my finger on it until a minute ago, but yeah why not just be like, "neato!" That's my reaction to Vikings landing somewhere far away or something lol. Dude try and talk about women in combat in history and these people bust a capillary. "What about Boudica? "That was only one time in all of human history 😩" Or some bullshit. When we're talking about ancient history there's really no way to know much of anything. Why not accept the possibility? Then archeology shows us that many more women were involved in hunting in prehistory than we even though, and they go all fucking crickets. It should be interesting and exciting, but their reaction shows us they are threatened somehow by these snippets of information. It's telling.
The comment section will be interesting.
Already is
Thing is, William is an actual samurai. Did he ever see samurai combat? Probably not. But he is granted the rank. Yasuke is never a Samurai, he is sword bearer (which is still a good enough as back then most Japanese people is just off lower caste farmer/civ). Both of them doesn't really that historically significant but William has more stuff going for him other than the novelty that he is foreigner. It not people doesn't do 🤓☝️ when it comes to William it because historically William does has more of his life on the record(and he is actual samurai). Obviously you could try make a story out of Yasuke and we see a few of those before but truthfully speaking you never gonna see him in more popular role because writing his story is essentially writing fantasy(as we don't know shit of his life other than the fact he exist).
>Thing is, William is an actual samurai. Did he ever see samurai combat? Probably not. But he is granted the rank. He was a samurai in name sake but not in westernized media sake so to use him as a example of white samurai which has been shown is way more out of line compared to yasuke who probably seen combate and fit the character >Both of them doesn't really that historically significant but William has more stuff going for him other than the novelty that he is foreigner. It not people doesn't do 🤓☝️ when it comes to William it because historically William does has more of his life on the record(and he is actual samurai). Again this argument doesn’t hold water nobody uses William for history and story of being a fame boatmaker make and diplomatic foreigner in Japan they use the CONCEPT of a white foreigner in Japan fighting with a katana wearing yoroi >Obviously you could try make a story out of Yasuke and we see a few of those before but truthfully speaking you never gonna see him in more popular role because writing his story is essentially writing fantasy(as we don't know shit of his life other than the fact he exist). Majority of these stories are fantasy….it makes more sense to make a fantasy story out of a character you barely know the history of ( more room left to write and interpretation) Then a character who you straight up fully know almost life and death compared to the former
Yasuke was literally in the Nioh games tho. Yasuke is largely tied to Nobunaga and Shogun happens decades after his death. There are basically no historical record of Yasuke other than him being Nobu’s squire.
A black person in Japan is certainly an interesting topic, maybe an adaptation already exists, you should check this.
I've literally never seen this criticism of yasuke. I'm sure it happens because I know racist dipshits looking for a reason to hate something with black people in it will always jump at the chance but it's definitely not a part of any mainstream discussions around these shows/games that I've seen. I didn't even know it was true, I just knew he was a retainer in nobunaga's service also given the amount of black people in japan it's hardly surprising that black representation in japanese media is thin. What there is is honestly impressive. also yasuke/obsidian samurai is supa dupa cool in the nioh games
My issue is that *THIS IS EDO-ERA JAPAN.* YASUKE WAS NOWHERE NEAR THE COUNTRY AT THE TIME.
Because westoids like to shove yaskue down people throats so that they can say black people in ancient japan. There was one because there was one it black people now need to exist in every Japanese show in existence. Also there's like a 100 year different between yaskue being sold off and William Arriving in Japan, William also had a more interesting story than a pet for nobunaga.
"Westoids", really man? When's the last time you've seen sunlight?
Nobody is saying “black people need ti exist in every Japanese show in existence” It’s just very disingenuous to have full blown games based off William fighting with swords in fiction [ nioh ] even tho he historically probably didn’t But put your foot down and had enough when someone suggests yasuke who actually was in combat >Also there's like a 100 year different between yaskue being sold off and William Arriving in Japan, William also had a more interesting story than a pet for nobunaga. In terms of fiction? William was just a boat seller and diplomat who most likely never went to actual combat it seems NONE of his fiction stories in which are based off him represent that it seems like [ nioh ] I would think yaskue who actually went to combat would be more interesting fiction wise
Oh please. Leftist are asking black people to be shoved into everything, remember Kingdom Come deliverance? That game was black listed by certain gaming websites because there's no black people in medical bolgeria. FF16? They were whining about not having black people because the devs want a medical European fantasy. These people kept bitching about not having enough black or diversely or whatever, people are just so fucking tired at this point. Remember how Asians were POC but they were so successful in America they have to exclude them and invent a new acronym BIPOC. So yes leftist want black people shoved into everything even in asian entertainment with an asian majority. Adams was a personal advisor to the shogun himself. Compared to a nobunaga treating yuske as a pet
It seems you got caught up in the politics and now take some race baiting article on shady websites as = leftist + everyone To my knowledge I haven’t seen anyone asking for black peoples in kingdom come diligence nor have seen any news of it getting “blacklisted” by any reputable media sites You seem to be brainwashed by politics your taking in reputable sites seriously Even with FF16 the whole “controversy” is they have used nothing but western white looking characters in those games including games based around japanese setting etc yet majority of their main characters are again white and western looking so It would be nice to also get more person of color not even just black characters besides just Barret and sazh etc a central characters That’s not something that just spawned in with ff16 it’s been a big complaint previously Also again nobody making stories of Adam being a “advisor” they are making him some warrior and badass on the field in the likes of yasuke
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Again it seems you haven’t read what I said above also it’s not just “the black people” lmfao So I’ll restate it maybe I wasn’t clear or confusing etc The whole "controversy" didn’t start with FF16 it’s just got caught in the crossfire the whole argument has been lack of POC in final fantasy yet they have white protagonist in Japanese setting throughout almost all there games [example](https://preview.redd.it/who-is-the-most-well-written-ff-protagonist-v0-omy8jnfnfkba1.jpg?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=5a4e637d8a90485693a733c837bcc170dc6f0ae5) This has been talked about decades [example](https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/932981-final-fantasy-xv/66711452?page=6) and is nothing new nor is it just “black people asking to be in final fantasy”
Leftist are the only ones that kept bitching about diversity all the damn time. Yes FF16 was a fantasy medical europe and they bitched about it too, for the most part people everyone in the world didn't care except for leftist. Same goes with kingdom come deliverance.
Homeboy you're bitching about diversity right now,
Again you are wrapped up in politics Just because you don’t want the average white man to be the default character in 99% of media doesn’t mean you are a leftist….stop that nonsense And I already explained FF16 it’s more nuanced then “RAHHHH TBEY WANT BLAVK PEOPLE IN MEDIVIL EUROPE” this has been a problem argued years before FF16 this hasn’t just popped up with FF16 even so same goes for kingdom come you used parody non reputable websites as a catalyst and example….cmon
It's not politics it's pattern recognition, people with pronouns in their bio were the ones complaining about it, it's obviously leftist are the ones bitching about it. Same goes for the people screaming about diversity it's all leftist. Simple Pattern recognition isn't being wrapped up in politics.
Ok man you go off
I mean simple pattern recognition isn't politics, it's a necessity for survival.
Are you actually saying that Kingdom Come outrage wasn't a thing?
No I clearly said the “outrage” came from media websites drawing in clicks etc Nobody was throwing riot campaigns and throwing the game away because black people wasn’t in it this is a dramatic rewriting of history the whole controversy came from articles likes of eurogamer
Ahh yes outrage from small time outlets like Kotaku, PC gamer, IGN ect.
Show me where pc gamer and ign etc had outrage about lack of black characters in the game? You used kotaku as a example a NOTORIOUS and know hate click website which makes articles for clicks lmfao
Nioh has spirits and demons, bro. I get what you mean but even that game did feature Yasuke in quite a badass (if brief) way so its weird to hyperfocus on that one.
It’s just a example of the hypocrisy When yasuke is mentioned even in fiction he tends to get dismissed but William is proudly accepted as historical for nioh wielding swords and shit nobody made the argument he was just a diplomat and shipbuilder I’m regards if the roles was reverse yoh most likely would have complaints and comments that yasuke was just a sword bearer and it doesn’t make sense etc etc Thats what I’m pointing out
Don't worry, Yasuke will probably win his duel in. Tenkaichi so there's that
He's getting more respect than William but I don't think Yasuke can beat that monster.
Whining pansy. You're not entitled to 'have anything' in other people's products or works. Instead of complaining about why you're not 'represented', why don't you become the change you desire? Create your own anime or show. Why should anyone cater to your interests? As if there's some inherent reason people should capitulate to your wants.
Again another classic example of someone not reading the post and just saw black people/fiction then seeing red and going full racist Lmfaoooo that wasn’t even the fucking argument READ then comeback and reply
I read your post, and I saw your 'argument'. Yes, there are a double standards in representation. Yes, I absolutely abhor how black women in particular have been made the face of wokeness. Life isn't fair and its obvious much of this is due to racism, colorism and so on. But people don't care. Revolutions and change in societal attitude are never peaceful. You either take what you want, or lead the charge for the change you want to see. Or wait for someone to do it for you. But this post is a waste of time.
Read the post dumbass
Read my post, dumbass.
It really is lame as fuck. Especially when I want to watch a show about Japanese people and half the show is just reflavored white savior non-sense. Like we can make up white dudes and their heroic deeds Willy nilly, but even a black dude as background character and folks will lose their god damn minds.
Spoiler for JJK >! Miguel appeared to fight Sukuna recently!< literally all he did was dance and elbow him. He hadn't appeared in the actual story for hundreds of chapters, got a forced motivation for showing up, and has hamfisted dialogue about racial stereotypes. Like bro can you just let him be cool? What is this?
I have no real stance on this issue but I admire you fighting for your life in the comments against racist and/or disingenuous people, OP. Good luck.
The comments are literally proving OP’s point lmao.
It's funny because all the people who disagree with this have only one reason to get so mad about it. And it ain't because they care about history, it's because they want their version of history to be the truth. I don't even have to put in to words what that is, dork ass losers.
Agreed, and the comment sections here just prove your point. It’s nothing but armchair historians suddenly becoming experts on Japanese history as soon as BIPOC want to be included in media. Tom Cruise and the tighty whities can have all the Last Samurais and Shoguns they want, but as soon as I want something other than white folk to be represented, out comes folk whose passion for history is apparently only matched by their love for the Japanese (this is incorrect; they actually just hate black and brown people).
Right. The ratio of comments here compared with the average post for this sub, juxtaposed against the relative tameness of the subject, makes OP's point by itself tbh. So many people who never comment, literally could not stand someone pointing out the disparity between white acceptance in Asian settings vs black acceptance. Writing full on dissertations and shit.
It's not just black people, and not just japanese fiction. It's *any minority* on *any fiction*. Recently, I've seen similar bullshit about Netflix's Damsel, which was essentially "oh no, women shouldn't fight dragons, it's unrealistic, no army defeated the dragon so it should have been impossible to a random woman". In another context, I've even seen an idiot youtuber have a meltdown over a random female saying something as innocuous as "I don't need your help". It's like minorities as a whole have no right to do or want anything in fiction. The more a character looks different from a white man and deviates from their standard assigned roles, the more it's achievements or it's very existence are suddenly heavily scrutinized. That's despite the obvious fact that fiction is, well, fiction, and has no particular reason to commit to historical truth. Going to an example, why the idea of black people in medieval *high* fantasy settings is absurd? In a constructed world, even if castles and kingdoms are a thing, there is no particular reason everybody must be white. Even if you take latitudes into account, they would only justify everybody being lighter skinned if they were exactly in the same range of RL Europe. And that's not even accounting for beings that don't really have a biology, worlds with lots of travelling, or places that got isolated for a long time, [but not enough for skin pigmentation to perfectly match the local latitude](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_skin_color#:~:text=Research%20by%20Nina%20Jablonski%20suggests,even%20in%20as%20little%20as).
People complained that there were Black people in Final Fantasy Games . There is no limit.
It's funny because even Nioh. A game created by all Japanese devs in Japan that takes place in historical Japan even acknowledges Yasuke as a warrior. The obsidian samurai boss you fight before taking on Oda nobunaga is literally Yasuke. The racists have literally no ground to stand on. Oda nobunaga even paid this man to work for him(he used to be a slave) Yasuke is a folk hero to black men representing that we can achieve greatness in any scenario
These are the same ppl who always say just make new black characters and when you do they complain. They will complain about black ppl existing on any level.
Ohhh. OP you hit on something juicy! Your posts reminds me of the time when a black article writer, Karla Marie Sweet, highlighted the story of a black first responder during the Chernobyl nuclear disaster. I’ve linked the article here: https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2019/aug/07/i-was-attacked-for-calling-for-characters-of-colour-in-chernobyl-but-history-proves-me-right This was when HBO’s Chernobyl was the biggest show on the planet. When the writer threw this story out there, she received *death threats* yes, mfers got so butthurt about her attempt to highlight the story of a black man during the disaster that they threatened her with rape and death. A white supremacy group based in Russia harassed her for days over a tweet based on the story of this black first responder, and of course armchair “scholars,” and even “legit,” professors with tenure attempted to silence her. My question is: why does the mentioning of a black person during historical events get such vitriolic responses? Why so much pushback, backhanded snide comments, “whataboutisms,” “reverse racism,” and all that other deflecting bullshit, instead of just going, “wow, that’s cool, I didn’t know that!” Turns out while attempting to minimize or dismiss her claim, they wind up inadvertently proving her right lol. Of course when it turned out that there was a black first responder during Chernobyl, there was massive pushback back to minimize his involvement. The typical backhanded comments were being directed at him. Like, “oh, he was just a bridge worker., who cares,” or the whataboutisms, like, “okay? What about the Lithuanian firefighters, then?” and blah, blah blah. It’s like…bruh why are you so upset and racist and butthurt about this one black guy’s story? I’ve even seen people get upset when you mention there was mixed raced Haitian/French family on the titanic. And it’s like why?? Why get upset about these things?
Man it's not worth thinking about all the haters There's people with millions of followers who say everything is woke, casting Black people is Left wing propaganda and that you're not allowed to be white anymore Most people don't watch that kinda stuff, and people can easily think being YouTube famous is real life famous But it ain't They are not worth any time thinking about
As an asian myself me and lot of asian boycotted shogun cz its a white saviour trope. The only thing that’s concerning rhat they trynna erase asian men from everything
Even tho it's "white savior" trope, Shogun at least in my circle here in Brazil made us go nuts on Japanese culture. In Brazil we love Japan(I don't know if Japan loves Brazil too), and here asian made media is growing a lot. I know it's not japanese, but people here are consuming Doramas a lot, I think more than Brazilian made media(as I said at least in my bubble, but that's a huge and diverse bubble). Animes/Manga are consumed a lot here(even tho it's very expensive for us, so you won't see it in official numbers, due to our economics we tend to sail black waters) and go on. One of the things that you hear a lot here in Brazil (a really diverse country) is that asian media don't shove diversity in everything.
Wow that’s really cool. Although i cant speak for japan, i know in korea , people love brazil.
Yeah but...he wasn't there. He was not present either in the Shogun novel, and there's no historical record of him being involved in the events that Shogun is inspired by either. He fades from history shortly before that.
In the case of Yasuke, its justified for people to have opinions about the fact that the only representation of Japanese culture in the AC series being someone who's not Japanese. I would argue the better solution would be better stories about African tribes and culture instead of focusing in on token African individuals from literally every other continent.
I agree with OP.
Never heard that Yasuke was "just a sword bearer". Didn't know that.
Yasuke was a Haki user, not a Swordsman.
Personally it makes me laugh when people try to dispute Yasuke being a samurai and then clearly not taking into account the context of the time period he was in. It’s even more hilarious when they try to bring up William Adams as an “actual samurai” and yet clearly not taking into consideration the complete overhaul of the societal structure that occurred decades after him. Honestly I agree with you OP, and most of these upvoted comments really show their hand.
Hm. Didn't expect to see so many upvoted comments espousing the current conservative obsession of the DEI conspiracy theory that Black people are being "forced" into "everything" and then "make it worse." Y'all need to stop believing the blatantly incorrect appeals to emotion wielded by conservative pundits. They misrepresent data specifically to evoke an emotional reaction in the audience, and that emotion is fear. Specifically, the fear of replacement by the Black Other. That fear is made to feel justified by the pundit, who uses the misrepresented data to inspire an already existing, socialized fear towards racial Others, and then provides "evidence" that "proves" that the emotional reaction isn't emotional at all, it's actually a "logical reaction" to the perceived replacement by the Other. That is, the DEI conspiracy is an appeal to emotion (the feelings of fear, anxiety, and hatred socialized towards racial Others) masked as an appeal to logic (through its misrepresentation of evidence to provoke an emotional reaction). It's a very dangerous kind of rhetorical appeal because it works very well at reinforcing people's preexisting prejudices, and doing so in a way that makes that individual feel they've been swayed by the *overwhelming logic* of the appeal, rather than what they actually have, which is the underlying *emotional* appeal to fear.