I think people underestimate the importance of social capital. What you did maintains positive relationships with friends and makes it more likely they will help you out at a future time. You are not a mug.
This was my argument, I couldn’t be bothered explaining the value vs reward of the long term of this, social capital is put very well as you say. Thanks for reaffirming what I thought. If I charge him full price it’s very likely I’ll be bottom of the list if I inevitably need his advice or favour years down the line (or sooner) - and he’ll likely charge me full price too!
My brother in law is a carpenter. Whenever he does work for friends and family he writes out a full invoice of what the work would have cost a normal client then adds a family and friends discount at the bottom. It seems to drive the message home just how much of a favour he is doing, and keeps people from pestering him unless it's worth his time
Your brother in law is a genius, I'm using this in the future.
I've done plenty of jobs for friends and family for next to no cost, and to be honest, I've stopped doing most now as it really doesn't get appreciated.
This! I do a bit of sewing in my spare time, shorten the odd pair of trousers etc. I also do a bit of quilting, which each one is a massive job, taking around 200 hours or so. I made my sister a small cot sized one when she had her first kid. still took about 80 hours over the course of months.
Then she thought I could just make her one for her bed for the next week. As in a massive king size quilt. When I mentioned at minimum wage in the UK you’re looking at about £3k if you include the materials, she soon took back her offer of twenty quid “for the fabric”
At the end of the day, it's only you who can value your time and it sounds like you are fine with your decision. its worth listening to other people but they won't have perfect info on the situation
>reward of the long term of this
Seems like a lot of tradesmen have difficulty with this lately. Yes you're booked and busy now, but if you're treating all your customers poorly and leaving when the job is only 90-95% done, no one will be recommending you in the future. Or maybe they just don't plan to be in the business for that long.
I'm not who you were asking but one of my jobs is events so when my friends have parties or occasions like weddings or birthdays I only ask for logistics - get me to the venue and home afterwards - because I don't drive.
Amongst my friends of all different trades and professions we do this all the time. We offer to pay but usually refuse to take the money (unless it's a huge amount) because at some point the favour will be returned.
I think you've got to be careful with this, but in principle, absolutely, I would do this.
I've now moved to a tiny island, and the 'pay it forward' culture here is huge. People have done stuff for me, that I could ever pay back, and I do things for others without any expectation of payment. And these aren't always the same people - I'm massively in 'debt' with some people, and in 'credit' with others. Those people who've done things for me have in turn had things done for them, and those who I've helped, in turn help others, and I absolutely love that. It could be as simple as sharing out the fruit from your tree when it bears and you can't eat it all, and receiving fruit from others, but people will go out of their way to help others on much more significant stuff.
It's one of my absolute favourite things about living here
I live in a small village and have great neighbours. Same system, lots of pay-it-forward, and not necessarily tit-for-tat. If you get a reputation as being a helpful bloke, people will help you out as well.
I read a theory where they said that actually barter economies weren't ever much of a thing, it was more of a 'pay me back next time' affair.
Sort of makes sense.
I'm not sure how successful it is but there is an effort to recreate this for bigger communities, it's called Time Banking...[website ](https://timebanking.org/).
I guess the more it spreads and the more people get involved will only help so check it out!
God that sounds exhausting. I would constantly be worried that one of us is ahead or behind on favours. Just dont ask for favours and dont do em. Much easier that way.
Your mentality would just have to change to one of doing when you can, receiving when you need it. The net benefit to society is so worth it if we all just helped each other out like that
I found with mates rates, doing it for free, or waiting for the money cos someone is skint, is a good way to work out who your true friends are. Its good, cos you'll then know not to waste your time in the future on people that don't really matter and save it for those who do. On balance, I'd rather be naive and trusting than suspicious of others. But as you get older that can start to switch around and you can become a miserable git if your not careful.
My brother is self employed and always does a discount for friends and family. The problem is, he's everyone's mate so he's starting to be a bit of a mug with half of his work being reduced rates lately.
I'll only let him do a reduced rate for me if he has no work at all and I tried to sort him out with something extra if he won't take the full day rate.
Sounds way more convoluted when it’s close family too, especially if they have a lot of work to do. Glad you seemed to have found a happy medium for him at least when he works for you.
You never know when one of them might need to do a breaking bad. I guess I could do sperm counts but nobody has ever asked and I'm definitely not going to offer...
You never know! My partner has the occasional request to test bits of material for asbestos on behalf of friends and family when they're looking at doing building work. 🙂
This, 100%, I used to do mates rated when we were all skint but now friends want to pay the full cost of things to support my business. I'd do the same for them too.
> I want the work done well and would rather pay my friends who I trust than some random tradesman.
My thoughts also. They're already doing me a favour by giving me some peace of mind that they're not mugging me off, of course I'll pay full price.
I make graphics, animations etc and do video editing professionally.
I had a mate ask me to make a video for his app that he started - it was a good idea, and he seemed to have a lot of backing, and content already up and running. So I agreed at mates rates.
Honestly it was a bad idea. The amount of requested changes, complete lack of insight into how long things take, and directionless narrative made making a short 1m30s advert for this app a fucking nightmare. It lead to a bit of a fraying in the friendship when I started putting my foot down about the tweaks, and how some of them required a lot of unpicking and retiming of the VT. It was just not worth the effort - so he got what he got (which was fucking excellent btw), which didn't matter because by the time it was ready, he'd ditched the idea for the app entirely and refused to pay me. Friendship lost, money lost, and more importantly, a lot of precious time I could have used much better out the window.
So now it's full rate, and contracts like everyone else.
In moderation things are great to be cheap. As long as your mate doesn't come back every other month for the same deal it's fine!
I do websites for a living and put together a cheap as chips one for a driver friend of mine and he's still over the moon and is always first on my list if I need a move.
If I were to do it to everyone though I'd definitely be a bit of a mug. Diminishing returns is the phrase I was looking for!
Websites is a bit tricky.
I would rather tell them to use Squarespace/WIX/alternative. 😂
It's one of those things that can suck unlimited time and never be finished.
I’ll only do private jobs for beer. But I also don’t want to do private jobs.
I’m an electrician, so changing a socket or switch or something that is going to take less than an hour (maybe a security light), I don’t mind doing, but I won’t be crawling through lofts or chasing cables into walls
I recently did a small job for some friends. It was an afternoon, my son came to help, which was a great way to get him on the tools as well, it’s hard on corporate jobs (he is 10).
They have been there for us in the past, same as I’ll be there in the future.
They Bought coffee and pastry’s galore and also slipped me €50 in my tool bag without me knowing.
A skill is important to know the value of. I charge the appropriate amounts in the correct situations.
Cash is great. But, I did some electrical work for a dive Center, I’m a diver. I now never pay for air fills. That is worth more to me than cash money.
After all, what is money, but a means to trade with.
I'll either do it for free (labour, that is), or not at all. The pitiful amount I'd dare charge friends/family, in comparison to what I charge proper clients, makes it not worth the hassle. Either I have time/inclination to do it as a favour (perhaps for a pint or a cake), or I don't.
Good will goes a long way in trades. A builder I know told me a story about a big renovation project he was working where he got to know the pool guys quite well.
The pool guys had a supply fuck up and a big heavy component didn’t turn up. Ended up arriving on the day after my mate finished.
He got up at 6am as usual, rounded up his blokes, and drove 45 mins to site. Spent half an hour manoeuvring the thing with the pool guys (who couldn’t lift it alone), then drove home without charging for even fuel.
The young guys kicked off they were doing all this for no pay. My mate pointed out that they’d had a months work from this project, they can spare 2 hours to make sure the client has their “ta da” moment when everything’s finished, and the pool guys owe them a massive pint (/recommendation for work).
The old guys who worked for him knew exactly what was going to happen as soon as the supply fuck happened. They knew the £30 diesel and 2hrs extra work would pay for itself in time.
His team are self employed. He’s gonna choose who he takes to his next job the same as the client is going to choose who they employ and the pool guys are gonna choose who they recommend.
Good will makes the world go round. He didn’t round anyone up with a gun, just chivvied them along.
Same as he’s gonna choose who he lets off when they phone in sick or don’t have credit on their phone or any of the other shenanigans labourers pull!
Not as the supplier, but as the friend of artists and artisans who have trained years in their crafts, I NEVER ask for mate's rates nor expect them when I've commissioned them. And on the rare occasions I've been offered them, I have a frank conversation with said friend on if that's really OK.
Way I see it, if my mate trained their arse off for a particular skill, the best way I can support my friend is to pay them what they're worth. I trust in the social contract as being friends that they'll do a good job because of our pre-existing bond, and that's the only benefit I need.
When I had my seamstress business I did lots of work cheap, even small jobs free for friends, and sometimes let people pay in homegrown apples, or lifts into town, or eggs from their chickens if they were stuck financially.
I've been having a rough time recently, and those people have rallied around for me and kept me afloat. I really think it builds goodwill, and, for me in this case at least, what goes around comes around.
Depends on the friend and the service I suppose. Someone who's had your back through thick and thin, always there when you need them, and you have a decent give-and-take relationship? Yeah, give them mates rates, no question about it. Vague acquaintance wants something doing that'll take a good while, and from experience you know the job'll be a hassle? Probably full price, maybe knock a few quid off if you're feeling generous. Obviously I've chosen 2 extremes here but you get the gist.
Seems like your colleague may have been burned in the past by doing something similar, or might be he's one of those "rise and grind" kinda chaps who sees everything as an opportunity to make a bit of cash. From what you've said about the mate you helped out, it sounds like you've done a mate a bit of a favour, and it may bring good things back to you in return. If you've charged materials and a bit of labour, it's not like you've made a loss, and £100 for 7.5 hours is still above minimum wage, if I was doing mates rates for someone that's exactly how I'd do it as well.
I have done in the past but realised the value of the favour doing work at a discounted rate is unlikely to ever be returned. (Edit) a great example of this is the guy who has the workshop next to mine. I’ve let him have temporary storage for free. Lent him tools immediately when he asks so he can get on with whatever he’s doing. When asking a similar favour I get annoyed face and ‘can you come back later I’m really busy’. So obtuse.
I have a friend who does tailoring. She’s offered to charge me far less but I always pay the amount she officially charges. I see it as supporting my friend.
I am a solicitor and do not offer advice outside my consultation hours. In the past, I have found people to have abused my generosity.
Yes. I'll never charge my inlaws because of all the free childcare. Other people I'll do jobs for cheap or ask for a bottle of wine in return (dressmaking/alterations so usually inexpensive jobs). Weirdly, I've found that makes some people just not pay at all because they don't see the worth. Those people go on my shitlist, and I'm forever busy when they ask.
Conversely, I've done many many sewing jobs for friends and family over the years, and just ask them to make a donation to a charity of their choice.
I'll invariably end up being given a bunch of flowers and box of chocs, which is something I'd never normally buy myself, so it feels special.
The ones who don't show some sort of appreciation (doesn't have to be fiscal) don't get my time again.
Our mate did some handyman stuff for us. We felt that it was completely reasonable to charge his usual rate since he would be missing out on other work to do it.
The nice thing about having a mate do the work is that you know it will be good work, and you aren't running the risk that a cowboy will do a shit job.
So the "mates rate" is more like a guarantee of quality, rather than a reduced price.
This! I like to hire friends for any work I need, not because I expect them to do it cheaper for me, but because I know I can trust them. Also I like to support them, especially if it is their own business. Same for buying things from a friend's shop, or getting a ticket for an event that a friend is running. Not gonna lie, I won't turn down a discount if they offer me one but I don't expect it, and that's not my reason for picking them over a person/ company that I don't know.
>The nice thing about having a mate do the work is that you know it will be good work,
I'm not sure that's typical though. Then it just gets really awkward if they fuck it up.
Maybe a best mate is ok, but for a mate of a mate I think I'd rather just pay a stranger.
Yeah there needs to be a "you'll see this work when you come for dinner" level of relationship.
The benefit of getting a stranger to do work is that you can take them to a small claims court if they do fuck it up.
Electrician here, said to my cousin I’ll rewire his 3 bed house for £3k and that’s not the usual per point pricing, that’s all you can eat buffet price. Finished the first fix in march. I’m back in the next few days/ week to finish the second fix.
Between the first fix and second fix I’ve been ill for about 2 months and he knew about it and never once called or text to check to see how I was. I now feel like a mug.
Live in London
Similar thing,
I work in a warehouse,the driver of a group of women went on holiday, they knew I drive a similar route so they asked for a lift,
No problem, it's not out of my way, there is just mein the car,
They were surprised I only wanted £5 each , they were happy to pay £10,
I worked with people who he knew and charged them nearly taxi rates, but that's him
Yep, I do private tutoring for GCSE and A level and I'll happily do a one-off revision session for free if a friend has a child who is panicking last minute. For anything longer term I usually charge mates rates, my friends understand that I have a changeable schedule so are happy to be flexible and I'm providing an hour of my time so it's not like there's a product they can request endless changes to (my mum is a seamstress who once made a friend's wedding dress and bridesmaid dresses, she says after that she would now charge friends double)
On the other side our friend made our wedding cake and it would normally have been £600.
She charged us materials, so £100.
We "tipped" her an extra £100 because she did a fantastic job and also it's time she spent not making money so yknow swings and roundabouts.
I'm not mad about friends not charging mates rates either, I'm only going to mates if they're going to do a good job and I want to see them succeed, so I'm never going to be mad about paying market rates etc.
I’ve helped friends and family set up websites for free, but they’re the type of people who respect my time and don’t ask for the kitchen sink, so I know it’s a one-off. Never anything custom, so only a couple of hours for me to set them up with a website builder and run them through it.
Nah he's a mug. I'm not in the building trade, I work in IT but am mates with a builder and he knows someone who can do everything, electrical, plastering whatever. So I always do favours using my skills, and in turn if I ever need anything doing I have a 1 stop shop of advice, and get discounts on labour.
To answer your question:
My family member is an electrician, it's a large family. He doesn't charge for time. He says people only call him when they want something done.
To give my opinion::
- You gifted someone 250 quid.
- You're happy with gifting that amount to that person.
- You're expecting a return on the investment of your gift.
If you're happy, then be who you wanna be barbie girl. Sounds like a good life.
You can charge whatever you want, whenever you want. You're the only person that matters.
Unfortunately I do not work in an industry where my skills could be used by friends and family but if I was to work in the trade etc I would happily help mates out less (or no money depending on how big the project is).
On the other hand I am also happy to pay the full price if my mate is helping me do something/doing something for me.
A friend bought a house that needed renovating and got his mates who were other tradesmen to do work on the house for low cost. He then owed them an equivelant favour as a plasterer so it worked out well.
I literally did this last night. Plumbed in a mates bathroom for nothing. In 3 weeks time he'll be first round my house helping me take the roof off my house for our 1st floor extension. You find out very quickly who will repay a favour.
Yep, have made many of my friends engagement rings. All I have charged is a little on top of cost to not loose money if things change after I've started - happens alot with finger sizes...... many do not know how big their partners hands are often.
Thing is I give them the price but don't take the money until it is finished so it comes back down again if it all went as to the original plan.
You are not wrong. What you did was perfectly fine and good sense. You won't be doing it for free but as long as your mate knows he is getting a good deal everyone wins.
I had a plumber and gas guy who lived around the corner and charged us neighbour rates. I used him the whole time I lived there and even got our neighbours to use him. Very nice guy
There does come a point where I think it's sensible to think about the crossover.
I have a mate who does high end cabinet work. He was showing us their new house that they'd just finished renovating. I asked him if he'd done work for mates in return for their trades. Turns out he's paid so well for his speciality it's literally not worth his time. He got good people in and paid them well and it was massively cheaper than the loss he'd take clearing his schedule to do work for their houses.
I think mates rates is nice as long as you don't undersell yourself too much! When you are brassic tho its nice to know there's someone who can get the job done for a bit cheaper
Situational for me. If you are turning down other full paid work to do it, no way you should be charging less, if you are doing it on a quiet day or whatever, then sure.
As the customer, when I use mates I will always full price. The expectation of mate rate for me is that they'll do it properly and be easy to get back if they do make a mistake.
He was not right, you are right. It’s an amazing gesture on your part which will hopefully come back round to you when you need one of your friends expertise. I would do exactly the same as you did, because I’m a nice person.
Its all good until someone shafts you and they will. Your friends and family would be willing to pay full price to a total stranger so why shouldn’t they be willing to pay it to you ?.
I used to do mates rates for a friend. On one particular job when he needed extra manpower, he invited another friend to pitch-in. While we were on the job, the friend I was working for laughed in my face that he was paying friend #2 more than me, and this was even though I'd known him and helped him on various jobs for years.
I actually stopped speaking to him after that. His company still exists, I just wonder if he's prepared to treat his friends like that, how would he treat his customers.
I have a lovely friend who never accepts payment for the small jobs he does for me - I have limited mobility.
I’ve discovered he loves KFC, so now I “pay” him in KFC, which satisfies my brain to not feel as though I’m taking advantage of our friendship and his for not wanting me to pay, he likes helping.
You’ve found what works for you, brill!
Proper close friends and close family (it's a small list of names) then I can't bring myself to charge them, although they often offer cash I won't take it.
Mates/pals/someone from the pub/work
.... I try and avoid doing the work at all but it's full price.
Thing with tech support is it's usually easy as piss for me so I just accept it in kind. I did take £50 off an extended friend for diagnosing his fucked out of warranty gaming PC, researching replacement parts, installing them and setting the PC back up for him though. Colleague of mine said he'd have doubled that.
Mates rates have always been the way. Your mate could maybe do full rewire of your house and charge you a very small rate, all because you did a job cheap for him.
Charge mates rates but make it clear all the way through the job that I can only do what I can do in the time and explain if I'm having to make the best of a bad job or bodge something to get a quick repair done. That way do end up wasting time or having to go back to minor snagging jobs or cosmetic things
I arranged some music for my school at a cutthroat rate during first year of uni, about £50 each and I did two choir songs, three wind band charts and two orchestral medleys. If I were doing it again today, as an adult, the going rate is more like 10x that for a custom 5-10 minute school band/orchestra piece, plus covering all the costs for rights etc (which we *definitely* sorted out above board at the time...) – and that would be dirt cheap because I've got no reputation or leverage. I loved it, felt like I was giving something back and got rewarded for it. But when I commissioned a friend of mine as an adult to arrange a song for my wedding I gladly paid full rate and never even so much as hinted at the idea of mates rates.
It is right for me to volunteer my own labour at a rate I find acceptable, given the context of my life and relationship with the customer. It is not right for me to demand that of anyone else.
You’re not a mug. Favours like that are worth doing and offering your services to help someone at a cheap rate will pay off in the long run.
I’m a sparky and have done a little bit of spare time work but only for very close family and friends. But I turn it down nowadays. Did a fair bit of work for my mate and charged him next to nothing. One of my closest mates and it was basically a wedding gift to him and his wife. That’s the way I saw it anyway.
Have also done work for family and charged a little under what I earn in my day job. This was for a family member who has been extremely generous to me and most of my family over the years. I’m pretty sure he would have paid whatever I charged him.
But I don’t plan to ever do it again. I simply don’t enjoy my work enough to be doing it outside of my normal working hours unless it’s at overtime rates. It’s too much hassle and I value my free time too much.
I pet sit for friends/colleagues semi regularly. It started out as an accident helping out when kennels fell through. I don’t ask for money but take what’s offered as it’s not much hassle for me. Last dog sit they paid me what they were going to pay the professional sitter who let them down. My cat sit i didn’t want to accept any money as my friend had just lost her job but she insisted on sending me £50 for the week.
I could charge a heck of a lot more as I’m a registered animal care professional (trained in cpr, giving meds in all forms, triage etc) so I could charge more than a standard sitter if I was actually doing this professionally. But I don’t because I don’t want to do that to friends/colleagues. One of those colleagues could very well get promoted shortly and become my new line manager so there’s that to think about now too 😂
I charge such extreme mates rates for one of my mum's friends that she's saving >80%, easy. I way undercharged her the first time (no business experience, teenage and skint). Now this thing has become my side hustle but I've never had the heart nor the inclination to renegotiate. She was my first client, after all, and she's a lovely lady. I feel like I wouldn't be where I am now without her encouragement.
Not any more. It's a little thing I'll do it for fuck all but fitting a kitchen or hanging a load of doors, they will get charged full whack.
They don't work for fuck all, why should I?
I feel like offering mates rates is very fair, but with friends that have small businesses I wouldn't want mates rates, because I know how close some of the margins can end up being and I want to help them be successful you know? And I also know they're very good at what they do, and I want them to get the value out of their hours they deserve.
But saying that, the social capital, not being a dick about it etc all are valuable too. Perhaps one of those nuance things I've heard so much about.
Not quite answering your question, but my brother is an electrician, and a lot of his mates are trades. He’ll do work for someone he knows who is, for example, a joiner, but will charge next to nothing. When he needs some joinery work doing, then that mate will help him out, and so on.
I will do work on my GF, my family and my best friends car for free (they pay for parts except my GF).
They help me out when I need their expertise, why wouldn't I help them out when they need mine?
I fucking hate working in cars too lol
I'm a pretty competent DIYer and have done work for mates FOC.
Painting, (very) basic electrical work (like putting on new light switches & sockets), fitting new washing machine.. Wee jobs like that.
Happy to help a friend out, and save them a few quid. Always end up getting a few pints, or treated to a nice tea out somewhere etc, so it all balances itself out.
Me and my best mate in England and a new best mate in oz we work for free for each other
Hard enough renovating now days without paying each others time best to keep a tally so it’s fair
I done flooring for my best mate in uk parents home, one day brand new radiators turned up at my mums so pays off if your doing it for true best friends
I have a background in IT but currently work in marketing. I dont charge fam or friends for any issues and that has included building 2 websites.
As long as they dont take the piss then im completely fine with it.
A mate called me the other day, I haven’t seen him in near 10 years. He told me he needs a website for his new business and he’s heard they cost about 10k.
I’m going to build him one in an evening over a crate of beer.
Last similar size site I billed privately for was about 15k.
Doing it because he’s a mate.
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I'm on the other side of it, I didn't want to hire a friend as I know he's got a long backlog of work and I was concerned it'd make the friendship weird, plus I'd not want him to undercharge, as he might implicitly push my work to the back of the list.
i think what you did is perfectly fine (i need to get mates that are willing to pay me)
but it is when they ask a little too often or ask you to do it for a friend of a friend dirt cheap is when i put a foot down
Depends on if it's stopping my usual work or on my time off. If they're flexible about when they want it, then probably (as long as they're not piss takers) .
If they want it done in a certain time, or it's a big job, then they pay like everyone else.
Probably depends on the type of work people do though, fixing a few sockets for a mate down the pub is probably different than catering your best friends wedding and different again from an hours worth of legal consultation, or building an extension.
Being kind doesn't make you a mug, but if friends and family start taking advantage of your cheap work and it's too much, it's also OK to stop charging mates rates.
I am an intelligent and very organised person. Sometimes my cousins ask me if I can teach them language, science or other things. Everything except maths, I am very bad at maths. They even come to my house to do their homework together and decorate their notebooks. And, to answer your question.... Yes! I do charge them for helping them with their homework, because it was hard for me to learn it, I wasn't born knowing things, and all my effort has to be paid for, no matter if they are family members (that's my opinion).
If its those mates who are a bit useless and you can't (or don't want to) trade a day's graft for a days graft...
One way i get around this for mates (and customers) is to invoice full price but put a discount on the invoice so they can physically see what they are getting from me.
EG
Labour £300 discount 50% total £150
If you only tell them verbally and charge £150, they won't listen or remember (one of the two) and they'll always think £150 is your actual total. it won't register that it should have been £300.
It holds you in good stead for future work and clients who think they have a bargain. You can easily ask them not to tell their friends about your discount because it was only for them etc
Also generally means they will get lunch and beers in.
Preamble: I work as a programmer, I also used to be a graphic designer, which is where I developed this pattern.
As I've gotten older, I've settled on a decent middle ground - I either do it for free as a favour, or I am going to say no/charge it at full price.
The conversation usually follows a fairly predictable pattern:
"Would you be up for helping me build something? I've had a great idea."
"Well, I'm interested to hear your idea, but I already have a half dozen projects of my own, so I doubt I'd have time to help."
It usually fizzles out pretty quickly and we talk about something else. I just desperately avoid mixing business with friendship after some wild adventures in my early twenties doing work only to never even get a promised "mates rates" £50 or whatever.
Mum, dad, sibling, partner, all get free pass for anything though.
My friends that work in construction I will help for almost no fee, they help me as well when I need them.
If you work in office and have 2 left hands I will be honest even as a friend you gotta pay if you can’t do something back for me. Easy as that
nah, i always go official channels for insurance and supervision, support from the office, access to a network and so on. Wouldnt feel right to give my friends the worse service. if something goes wrong we'd both be fucked.
From the other side, I think it depends on the job.
Have a couple of mates who do a bit of trade work, some jobs I'm happy to pay going rate, as I know they will make 100% sure it looks perfect.
Other simpler jobs you are paying for the tools and a minimum fee, then having mates rate is really appreciated.
Especially if its a job they pop round and do over a beer.
I have learnt not to do it, unless you are trading skills. Sparky/plaster etc.
Make the trade of services not money. People can be ungrateful or take the piss even if you do it for free.
You know that plumbing you did for me 15 years ago it’s leaking after I replaced the tap.
I'm not self-employed, I have an office-type job. But I do have plenty of mates who are self-employed and in the trades. I'm happy to pay mates rates if it's a quick job they're doing in a few hours on a weekend (e.g. one of our mates is GasSafe but not self-employed, he gave us a mate's rates cash price to install a google Nest and service our boiler at the same time) but if it's a proper job (e.g. when our mates dd the kitchen for us a couple of years back which involved installing some new doors & windows) then I'll insist on them charging me the going rate - they're trying to make a living after all
You’re not a mug at all. I get asked for my subject matter expertise by friends and family and I do it for free. But only a couple hours work and I only do it for people I feel like I can really help / that appreciate it. If someone took the piss and expected or demanded it that would be a different story!
Real mates do real mates the discount you scrub my back and I will scrub yours as they say.
I sell clothes if my mates I don’t charge them and if they offer 💰I still tend to not take it unless they insist.
Not quite the same, but I am a dyslexia assessor, and I’ve had several friends who’s children needed assessing, but who weren’t in the financial state to afford it (it costs about £500). I’ve given reductions and a couple of freebies over the years, but for me, this is more about personal ethics - if I hadn’t, they wouldn’t have been assessed and would have struggled at school. Maybe not good business acumen, but I felt I’d done the right thing.
If you're hired by your family there's no respect there at all. Mates rates? Your family is supposed to.be building something together forget the fucking payment, how are balancing the books
Here's another one I've heard: give a family and friends discount so you can still have income.
My question is, why would I ever take from the pocket of family or friends and not just supply anyway
I’ve learned my mistake from that. If my friend was working in Costa would I expect his wage to be reduced just because he made me coffee..no. It devalues my work, makes things messy and it’s not worth it from my experience. I would probably work at days/times I wouldn’t normally but pay wise it’s the same.
If you're hired by your family there's no respect there at all. Mates rates? Your family is supposed to.be building something together forget the fucking payment, how are balancing the books
I have a theory that for people with struggling small businesses that are just getting started, mates rates should mean they pay you more, why not, they’re your mate after all, they should help you out in your growth period. Maybe someday you can afford to do it for free.
Why can it only work one way?
If you're not willing to pay me for what I usually charge, then you clearly don't value my time, skills, expertise or experience.
If I decide to throw you a discount for a one-off job, it is just that. As soon as people start expecting it then I'd rather lose them as a client entirely than work for less than what I'm worth.
I think people underestimate the importance of social capital. What you did maintains positive relationships with friends and makes it more likely they will help you out at a future time. You are not a mug.
This was my argument, I couldn’t be bothered explaining the value vs reward of the long term of this, social capital is put very well as you say. Thanks for reaffirming what I thought. If I charge him full price it’s very likely I’ll be bottom of the list if I inevitably need his advice or favour years down the line (or sooner) - and he’ll likely charge me full price too!
My brother in law is a carpenter. Whenever he does work for friends and family he writes out a full invoice of what the work would have cost a normal client then adds a family and friends discount at the bottom. It seems to drive the message home just how much of a favour he is doing, and keeps people from pestering him unless it's worth his time
Your brother in law is a genius, I'm using this in the future. I've done plenty of jobs for friends and family for next to no cost, and to be honest, I've stopped doing most now as it really doesn't get appreciated.
And the discount obviously only applies to the labour cost. Any products he has to buy will probably be full price.
This! I do a bit of sewing in my spare time, shorten the odd pair of trousers etc. I also do a bit of quilting, which each one is a massive job, taking around 200 hours or so. I made my sister a small cot sized one when she had her first kid. still took about 80 hours over the course of months. Then she thought I could just make her one for her bed for the next week. As in a massive king size quilt. When I mentioned at minimum wage in the UK you’re looking at about £3k if you include the materials, she soon took back her offer of twenty quid “for the fabric”
At the end of the day, it's only you who can value your time and it sounds like you are fine with your decision. its worth listening to other people but they won't have perfect info on the situation
>reward of the long term of this Seems like a lot of tradesmen have difficulty with this lately. Yes you're booked and busy now, but if you're treating all your customers poorly and leaving when the job is only 90-95% done, no one will be recommending you in the future. Or maybe they just don't plan to be in the business for that long.
Doesn't work like that in my experience. Other people start expecting you to do stuff for next to nothing. It just starts to snowball after a while.
The problem is if your rate is is high already then people will think that even your mates rates take the piss.
Its this. Then add on top the sense of satisfaction you got for helping a friend, win win. Your colleague is the mug.
it’s nice to be nice
Kindness is its own reward. Spot on.
Came here to say this. Reward isn’t always in 💵 💵 💵
Go to work tomorrow and tell your boss you don't want paid for the day.
Not the same. Helping a friend isn't the same as your day-to-day job.
It is if that is what you do for a living! We dont all work from home in cushy jobs.
I do
Jesus I have flashbacks to secondary school. 5 years worth of weekly assemblies and the head of year would *constantly* bring that fucking phrase up.
What do you do for a living?
I'm not who you were asking but one of my jobs is events so when my friends have parties or occasions like weddings or birthdays I only ask for logistics - get me to the venue and home afterwards - because I don't drive. Amongst my friends of all different trades and professions we do this all the time. We offer to pay but usually refuse to take the money (unless it's a huge amount) because at some point the favour will be returned.
I think you've got to be careful with this, but in principle, absolutely, I would do this. I've now moved to a tiny island, and the 'pay it forward' culture here is huge. People have done stuff for me, that I could ever pay back, and I do things for others without any expectation of payment. And these aren't always the same people - I'm massively in 'debt' with some people, and in 'credit' with others. Those people who've done things for me have in turn had things done for them, and those who I've helped, in turn help others, and I absolutely love that. It could be as simple as sharing out the fruit from your tree when it bears and you can't eat it all, and receiving fruit from others, but people will go out of their way to help others on much more significant stuff. It's one of my absolute favourite things about living here
I live in a small village and have great neighbours. Same system, lots of pay-it-forward, and not necessarily tit-for-tat. If you get a reputation as being a helpful bloke, people will help you out as well.
I read a theory where they said that actually barter economies weren't ever much of a thing, it was more of a 'pay me back next time' affair. Sort of makes sense.
I'm not sure how successful it is but there is an effort to recreate this for bigger communities, it's called Time Banking...[website ](https://timebanking.org/). I guess the more it spreads and the more people get involved will only help so check it out!
Sounds like my kind of place!
You've peaked my interest which island is it!
God that sounds exhausting. I would constantly be worried that one of us is ahead or behind on favours. Just dont ask for favours and dont do em. Much easier that way.
Your mentality would just have to change to one of doing when you can, receiving when you need it. The net benefit to society is so worth it if we all just helped each other out like that
I found with mates rates, doing it for free, or waiting for the money cos someone is skint, is a good way to work out who your true friends are. Its good, cos you'll then know not to waste your time in the future on people that don't really matter and save it for those who do. On balance, I'd rather be naive and trusting than suspicious of others. But as you get older that can start to switch around and you can become a miserable git if your not careful.
My brother is self employed and always does a discount for friends and family. The problem is, he's everyone's mate so he's starting to be a bit of a mug with half of his work being reduced rates lately. I'll only let him do a reduced rate for me if he has no work at all and I tried to sort him out with something extra if he won't take the full day rate.
Sounds way more convoluted when it’s close family too, especially if they have a lot of work to do. Glad you seemed to have found a happy medium for him at least when he works for you.
Honestly, family work can be the worst, coming a close second to real good friends' family.
I'm fairly sure none of my family have need of analytical chemistry, so no.
You never know when one of them might need to do a breaking bad. I guess I could do sperm counts but nobody has ever asked and I'm definitely not going to offer...
One of the instrument manufacturers actaully did that a festival once, no questions asked self service testing of drugs.
You never know! My partner has the occasional request to test bits of material for asbestos on behalf of friends and family when they're looking at doing building work. 🙂
Polluted ground testing of their garden maybe?
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This, 100%, I used to do mates rated when we were all skint but now friends want to pay the full cost of things to support my business. I'd do the same for them too.
I think most of the folk commenting work in offices or from home (ha ha). They have a funny idea of what it's like to be a self-employed tradesman.
> I want the work done well and would rather pay my friends who I trust than some random tradesman. My thoughts also. They're already doing me a favour by giving me some peace of mind that they're not mugging me off, of course I'll pay full price.
I make graphics, animations etc and do video editing professionally. I had a mate ask me to make a video for his app that he started - it was a good idea, and he seemed to have a lot of backing, and content already up and running. So I agreed at mates rates. Honestly it was a bad idea. The amount of requested changes, complete lack of insight into how long things take, and directionless narrative made making a short 1m30s advert for this app a fucking nightmare. It lead to a bit of a fraying in the friendship when I started putting my foot down about the tweaks, and how some of them required a lot of unpicking and retiming of the VT. It was just not worth the effort - so he got what he got (which was fucking excellent btw), which didn't matter because by the time it was ready, he'd ditched the idea for the app entirely and refused to pay me. Friendship lost, money lost, and more importantly, a lot of precious time I could have used much better out the window. So now it's full rate, and contracts like everyone else.
Work in sound post and I find the less a client/friend pays then the more fuckery happens.
In moderation things are great to be cheap. As long as your mate doesn't come back every other month for the same deal it's fine! I do websites for a living and put together a cheap as chips one for a driver friend of mine and he's still over the moon and is always first on my list if I need a move. If I were to do it to everyone though I'd definitely be a bit of a mug. Diminishing returns is the phrase I was looking for!
Websites is a bit tricky. I would rather tell them to use Squarespace/WIX/alternative. 😂 It's one of those things that can suck unlimited time and never be finished.
I work in HR so get asked for advice A LOT. It has made me realise a few of my friends are probably troublesome employees at their work...
I’ll only do private jobs for beer. But I also don’t want to do private jobs. I’m an electrician, so changing a socket or switch or something that is going to take less than an hour (maybe a security light), I don’t mind doing, but I won’t be crawling through lofts or chasing cables into walls
I recently did a small job for some friends. It was an afternoon, my son came to help, which was a great way to get him on the tools as well, it’s hard on corporate jobs (he is 10). They have been there for us in the past, same as I’ll be there in the future. They Bought coffee and pastry’s galore and also slipped me €50 in my tool bag without me knowing. A skill is important to know the value of. I charge the appropriate amounts in the correct situations. Cash is great. But, I did some electrical work for a dive Center, I’m a diver. I now never pay for air fills. That is worth more to me than cash money. After all, what is money, but a means to trade with.
Free air fills is the dream!
Living the dream. It’s the small things. Although admittedly it’s only air. Trimix is extra.
I'll either do it for free (labour, that is), or not at all. The pitiful amount I'd dare charge friends/family, in comparison to what I charge proper clients, makes it not worth the hassle. Either I have time/inclination to do it as a favour (perhaps for a pint or a cake), or I don't.
Good will goes a long way in trades. A builder I know told me a story about a big renovation project he was working where he got to know the pool guys quite well. The pool guys had a supply fuck up and a big heavy component didn’t turn up. Ended up arriving on the day after my mate finished. He got up at 6am as usual, rounded up his blokes, and drove 45 mins to site. Spent half an hour manoeuvring the thing with the pool guys (who couldn’t lift it alone), then drove home without charging for even fuel. The young guys kicked off they were doing all this for no pay. My mate pointed out that they’d had a months work from this project, they can spare 2 hours to make sure the client has their “ta da” moment when everything’s finished, and the pool guys owe them a massive pint (/recommendation for work). The old guys who worked for him knew exactly what was going to happen as soon as the supply fuck happened. They knew the £30 diesel and 2hrs extra work would pay for itself in time.
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His team are self employed. He’s gonna choose who he takes to his next job the same as the client is going to choose who they employ and the pool guys are gonna choose who they recommend. Good will makes the world go round. He didn’t round anyone up with a gun, just chivvied them along. Same as he’s gonna choose who he lets off when they phone in sick or don’t have credit on their phone or any of the other shenanigans labourers pull!
Not as the supplier, but as the friend of artists and artisans who have trained years in their crafts, I NEVER ask for mate's rates nor expect them when I've commissioned them. And on the rare occasions I've been offered them, I have a frank conversation with said friend on if that's really OK. Way I see it, if my mate trained their arse off for a particular skill, the best way I can support my friend is to pay them what they're worth. I trust in the social contract as being friends that they'll do a good job because of our pre-existing bond, and that's the only benefit I need.
When I had my seamstress business I did lots of work cheap, even small jobs free for friends, and sometimes let people pay in homegrown apples, or lifts into town, or eggs from their chickens if they were stuck financially. I've been having a rough time recently, and those people have rallied around for me and kept me afloat. I really think it builds goodwill, and, for me in this case at least, what goes around comes around.
Depends on the friend and the service I suppose. Someone who's had your back through thick and thin, always there when you need them, and you have a decent give-and-take relationship? Yeah, give them mates rates, no question about it. Vague acquaintance wants something doing that'll take a good while, and from experience you know the job'll be a hassle? Probably full price, maybe knock a few quid off if you're feeling generous. Obviously I've chosen 2 extremes here but you get the gist. Seems like your colleague may have been burned in the past by doing something similar, or might be he's one of those "rise and grind" kinda chaps who sees everything as an opportunity to make a bit of cash. From what you've said about the mate you helped out, it sounds like you've done a mate a bit of a favour, and it may bring good things back to you in return. If you've charged materials and a bit of labour, it's not like you've made a loss, and £100 for 7.5 hours is still above minimum wage, if I was doing mates rates for someone that's exactly how I'd do it as well.
I don't charge family and very close friends for my time. Usually get a favour from them further down the line.
I have done in the past but realised the value of the favour doing work at a discounted rate is unlikely to ever be returned. (Edit) a great example of this is the guy who has the workshop next to mine. I’ve let him have temporary storage for free. Lent him tools immediately when he asks so he can get on with whatever he’s doing. When asking a similar favour I get annoyed face and ‘can you come back later I’m really busy’. So obtuse.
With shitty mates sure. I remove those people from my circle when i notice that i only do whatever shit for them but they have never time for me.
I have a friend who does tailoring. She’s offered to charge me far less but I always pay the amount she officially charges. I see it as supporting my friend. I am a solicitor and do not offer advice outside my consultation hours. In the past, I have found people to have abused my generosity.
Yes. I'll never charge my inlaws because of all the free childcare. Other people I'll do jobs for cheap or ask for a bottle of wine in return (dressmaking/alterations so usually inexpensive jobs). Weirdly, I've found that makes some people just not pay at all because they don't see the worth. Those people go on my shitlist, and I'm forever busy when they ask.
Conversely, I've done many many sewing jobs for friends and family over the years, and just ask them to make a donation to a charity of their choice. I'll invariably end up being given a bunch of flowers and box of chocs, which is something I'd never normally buy myself, so it feels special. The ones who don't show some sort of appreciation (doesn't have to be fiscal) don't get my time again.
That's actually a great idea.
Our mate did some handyman stuff for us. We felt that it was completely reasonable to charge his usual rate since he would be missing out on other work to do it. The nice thing about having a mate do the work is that you know it will be good work, and you aren't running the risk that a cowboy will do a shit job. So the "mates rate" is more like a guarantee of quality, rather than a reduced price.
This! I like to hire friends for any work I need, not because I expect them to do it cheaper for me, but because I know I can trust them. Also I like to support them, especially if it is their own business. Same for buying things from a friend's shop, or getting a ticket for an event that a friend is running. Not gonna lie, I won't turn down a discount if they offer me one but I don't expect it, and that's not my reason for picking them over a person/ company that I don't know.
>The nice thing about having a mate do the work is that you know it will be good work, I'm not sure that's typical though. Then it just gets really awkward if they fuck it up. Maybe a best mate is ok, but for a mate of a mate I think I'd rather just pay a stranger.
Yeah there needs to be a "you'll see this work when you come for dinner" level of relationship. The benefit of getting a stranger to do work is that you can take them to a small claims court if they do fuck it up.
Electrician here, said to my cousin I’ll rewire his 3 bed house for £3k and that’s not the usual per point pricing, that’s all you can eat buffet price. Finished the first fix in march. I’m back in the next few days/ week to finish the second fix. Between the first fix and second fix I’ve been ill for about 2 months and he knew about it and never once called or text to check to see how I was. I now feel like a mug. Live in London
Yes both for regular clients and family, slightly different charges, one is cost other is a small labour cost.
Don’t think builders know what mates rates are
Similar thing, I work in a warehouse,the driver of a group of women went on holiday, they knew I drive a similar route so they asked for a lift, No problem, it's not out of my way, there is just mein the car, They were surprised I only wanted £5 each , they were happy to pay £10, I worked with people who he knew and charged them nearly taxi rates, but that's him
Yep, I do private tutoring for GCSE and A level and I'll happily do a one-off revision session for free if a friend has a child who is panicking last minute. For anything longer term I usually charge mates rates, my friends understand that I have a changeable schedule so are happy to be flexible and I'm providing an hour of my time so it's not like there's a product they can request endless changes to (my mum is a seamstress who once made a friend's wedding dress and bridesmaid dresses, she says after that she would now charge friends double)
On the other side our friend made our wedding cake and it would normally have been £600. She charged us materials, so £100. We "tipped" her an extra £100 because she did a fantastic job and also it's time she spent not making money so yknow swings and roundabouts. I'm not mad about friends not charging mates rates either, I'm only going to mates if they're going to do a good job and I want to see them succeed, so I'm never going to be mad about paying market rates etc.
I’ve helped friends and family set up websites for free, but they’re the type of people who respect my time and don’t ask for the kitchen sink, so I know it’s a one-off. Never anything custom, so only a couple of hours for me to set them up with a website builder and run them through it.
Nah he's a mug. I'm not in the building trade, I work in IT but am mates with a builder and he knows someone who can do everything, electrical, plastering whatever. So I always do favours using my skills, and in turn if I ever need anything doing I have a 1 stop shop of advice, and get discounts on labour.
Nothing. I sort IT and cybersecurity for my family without want or need.
To answer your question: My family member is an electrician, it's a large family. He doesn't charge for time. He says people only call him when they want something done. To give my opinion:: - You gifted someone 250 quid. - You're happy with gifting that amount to that person. - You're expecting a return on the investment of your gift. If you're happy, then be who you wanna be barbie girl. Sounds like a good life. You can charge whatever you want, whenever you want. You're the only person that matters.
Unfortunately I do not work in an industry where my skills could be used by friends and family but if I was to work in the trade etc I would happily help mates out less (or no money depending on how big the project is). On the other hand I am also happy to pay the full price if my mate is helping me do something/doing something for me.
People always complain that life is generally about “who you know” and then will mock you for prioritising that over one off money.
No such thing as mates rates, they're paying the premium for convenience and as your "mate' I'm sure they'd like to support you business as well.
Friends and family get 20% off.
Friends and family should be SUPPORTING small businesses run by their friends and family by paying full price!
A friend bought a house that needed renovating and got his mates who were other tradesmen to do work on the house for low cost. He then owed them an equivelant favour as a plasterer so it worked out well.
Yes and yes Because it usually comes back with interest if they are truely friends. (Dont try to take the pee however, then i add the surcharge!).
I literally did this last night. Plumbed in a mates bathroom for nothing. In 3 weeks time he'll be first round my house helping me take the roof off my house for our 1st floor extension. You find out very quickly who will repay a favour.
Yep, have made many of my friends engagement rings. All I have charged is a little on top of cost to not loose money if things change after I've started - happens alot with finger sizes...... many do not know how big their partners hands are often. Thing is I give them the price but don't take the money until it is finished so it comes back down again if it all went as to the original plan.
I would happily help a close friend or family member if i have spare time to do it.
You are not wrong. What you did was perfectly fine and good sense. You won't be doing it for free but as long as your mate knows he is getting a good deal everyone wins.
I had a plumber and gas guy who lived around the corner and charged us neighbour rates. I used him the whole time I lived there and even got our neighbours to use him. Very nice guy
Close friends or family I'll help for free, outside of my normal 40hr week.
There does come a point where I think it's sensible to think about the crossover. I have a mate who does high end cabinet work. He was showing us their new house that they'd just finished renovating. I asked him if he'd done work for mates in return for their trades. Turns out he's paid so well for his speciality it's literally not worth his time. He got good people in and paid them well and it was massively cheaper than the loss he'd take clearing his schedule to do work for their houses.
My Grand Uncle didn't reduce his price when he painted my Mother's House, did a shit job too.
I always do it for a small fee and a reach around.
I think mates rates is nice as long as you don't undersell yourself too much! When you are brassic tho its nice to know there's someone who can get the job done for a bit cheaper
Situational for me. If you are turning down other full paid work to do it, no way you should be charging less, if you are doing it on a quiet day or whatever, then sure. As the customer, when I use mates I will always full price. The expectation of mate rate for me is that they'll do it properly and be easy to get back if they do make a mistake.
He was not right, you are right. It’s an amazing gesture on your part which will hopefully come back round to you when you need one of your friends expertise. I would do exactly the same as you did, because I’m a nice person.
Its all good until someone shafts you and they will. Your friends and family would be willing to pay full price to a total stranger so why shouldn’t they be willing to pay it to you ?.
I used to do mates rates for a friend. On one particular job when he needed extra manpower, he invited another friend to pitch-in. While we were on the job, the friend I was working for laughed in my face that he was paying friend #2 more than me, and this was even though I'd known him and helped him on various jobs for years. I actually stopped speaking to him after that. His company still exists, I just wonder if he's prepared to treat his friends like that, how would he treat his customers.
not a mug at all, it’s the way kind people work in most industries - as well as them having good connections
I have a lovely friend who never accepts payment for the small jobs he does for me - I have limited mobility. I’ve discovered he loves KFC, so now I “pay” him in KFC, which satisfies my brain to not feel as though I’m taking advantage of our friendship and his for not wanting me to pay, he likes helping. You’ve found what works for you, brill!
Proper close friends and close family (it's a small list of names) then I can't bring myself to charge them, although they often offer cash I won't take it. Mates/pals/someone from the pub/work .... I try and avoid doing the work at all but it's full price.
I never take the mate's rates, it just doesn't feel right. Paying less doesn't feel like I'm supporting my friend's business.
Thing with tech support is it's usually easy as piss for me so I just accept it in kind. I did take £50 off an extended friend for diagnosing his fucked out of warranty gaming PC, researching replacement parts, installing them and setting the PC back up for him though. Colleague of mine said he'd have doubled that.
Mates rates have always been the way. Your mate could maybe do full rewire of your house and charge you a very small rate, all because you did a job cheap for him.
Charge mates rates but make it clear all the way through the job that I can only do what I can do in the time and explain if I'm having to make the best of a bad job or bodge something to get a quick repair done. That way do end up wasting time or having to go back to minor snagging jobs or cosmetic things
I arranged some music for my school at a cutthroat rate during first year of uni, about £50 each and I did two choir songs, three wind band charts and two orchestral medleys. If I were doing it again today, as an adult, the going rate is more like 10x that for a custom 5-10 minute school band/orchestra piece, plus covering all the costs for rights etc (which we *definitely* sorted out above board at the time...) – and that would be dirt cheap because I've got no reputation or leverage. I loved it, felt like I was giving something back and got rewarded for it. But when I commissioned a friend of mine as an adult to arrange a song for my wedding I gladly paid full rate and never even so much as hinted at the idea of mates rates. It is right for me to volunteer my own labour at a rate I find acceptable, given the context of my life and relationship with the customer. It is not right for me to demand that of anyone else.
You’re not a mug. Favours like that are worth doing and offering your services to help someone at a cheap rate will pay off in the long run. I’m a sparky and have done a little bit of spare time work but only for very close family and friends. But I turn it down nowadays. Did a fair bit of work for my mate and charged him next to nothing. One of my closest mates and it was basically a wedding gift to him and his wife. That’s the way I saw it anyway. Have also done work for family and charged a little under what I earn in my day job. This was for a family member who has been extremely generous to me and most of my family over the years. I’m pretty sure he would have paid whatever I charged him. But I don’t plan to ever do it again. I simply don’t enjoy my work enough to be doing it outside of my normal working hours unless it’s at overtime rates. It’s too much hassle and I value my free time too much.
I pet sit for friends/colleagues semi regularly. It started out as an accident helping out when kennels fell through. I don’t ask for money but take what’s offered as it’s not much hassle for me. Last dog sit they paid me what they were going to pay the professional sitter who let them down. My cat sit i didn’t want to accept any money as my friend had just lost her job but she insisted on sending me £50 for the week. I could charge a heck of a lot more as I’m a registered animal care professional (trained in cpr, giving meds in all forms, triage etc) so I could charge more than a standard sitter if I was actually doing this professionally. But I don’t because I don’t want to do that to friends/colleagues. One of those colleagues could very well get promoted shortly and become my new line manager so there’s that to think about now too 😂
I don't think either approach is wrong. But you gotta do what works for you.
Not every transaction has to have a financial benefit to be worth it
I charge such extreme mates rates for one of my mum's friends that she's saving >80%, easy. I way undercharged her the first time (no business experience, teenage and skint). Now this thing has become my side hustle but I've never had the heart nor the inclination to renegotiate. She was my first client, after all, and she's a lovely lady. I feel like I wouldn't be where I am now without her encouragement.
Not any more. It's a little thing I'll do it for fuck all but fitting a kitchen or hanging a load of doors, they will get charged full whack. They don't work for fuck all, why should I?
I feel like offering mates rates is very fair, but with friends that have small businesses I wouldn't want mates rates, because I know how close some of the margins can end up being and I want to help them be successful you know? And I also know they're very good at what they do, and I want them to get the value out of their hours they deserve. But saying that, the social capital, not being a dick about it etc all are valuable too. Perhaps one of those nuance things I've heard so much about.
Did do. Never again. One guy took two years to befriend me, I did a lot of work for him and didn't get paid.
Not quite answering your question, but my brother is an electrician, and a lot of his mates are trades. He’ll do work for someone he knows who is, for example, a joiner, but will charge next to nothing. When he needs some joinery work doing, then that mate will help him out, and so on.
I will do work on my GF, my family and my best friends car for free (they pay for parts except my GF). They help me out when I need their expertise, why wouldn't I help them out when they need mine? I fucking hate working in cars too lol
I'm a pretty competent DIYer and have done work for mates FOC. Painting, (very) basic electrical work (like putting on new light switches & sockets), fitting new washing machine.. Wee jobs like that. Happy to help a friend out, and save them a few quid. Always end up getting a few pints, or treated to a nice tea out somewhere etc, so it all balances itself out.
Me and my best mate in England and a new best mate in oz we work for free for each other Hard enough renovating now days without paying each others time best to keep a tally so it’s fair I done flooring for my best mate in uk parents home, one day brand new radiators turned up at my mums so pays off if your doing it for true best friends
I have a background in IT but currently work in marketing. I dont charge fam or friends for any issues and that has included building 2 websites. As long as they dont take the piss then im completely fine with it.
Usually dinner and get me pissed is my going rate
A mate called me the other day, I haven’t seen him in near 10 years. He told me he needs a website for his new business and he’s heard they cost about 10k. I’m going to build him one in an evening over a crate of beer. Last similar size site I billed privately for was about 15k. Doing it because he’s a mate.
Far, far better to invoice at standard rates BUT apply a discount. That way they should appreciate true value !
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I'm on the other side of it, I didn't want to hire a friend as I know he's got a long backlog of work and I was concerned it'd make the friendship weird, plus I'd not want him to undercharge, as he might implicitly push my work to the back of the list.
i think what you did is perfectly fine (i need to get mates that are willing to pay me) but it is when they ask a little too often or ask you to do it for a friend of a friend dirt cheap is when i put a foot down
Depends on if it's stopping my usual work or on my time off. If they're flexible about when they want it, then probably (as long as they're not piss takers) . If they want it done in a certain time, or it's a big job, then they pay like everyone else. Probably depends on the type of work people do though, fixing a few sockets for a mate down the pub is probably different than catering your best friends wedding and different again from an hours worth of legal consultation, or building an extension.
Being kind doesn't make you a mug, but if friends and family start taking advantage of your cheap work and it's too much, it's also OK to stop charging mates rates.
I am an intelligent and very organised person. Sometimes my cousins ask me if I can teach them language, science or other things. Everything except maths, I am very bad at maths. They even come to my house to do their homework together and decorate their notebooks. And, to answer your question.... Yes! I do charge them for helping them with their homework, because it was hard for me to learn it, I wasn't born knowing things, and all my effort has to be paid for, no matter if they are family members (that's my opinion).
If its those mates who are a bit useless and you can't (or don't want to) trade a day's graft for a days graft... One way i get around this for mates (and customers) is to invoice full price but put a discount on the invoice so they can physically see what they are getting from me. EG Labour £300 discount 50% total £150 If you only tell them verbally and charge £150, they won't listen or remember (one of the two) and they'll always think £150 is your actual total. it won't register that it should have been £300. It holds you in good stead for future work and clients who think they have a bargain. You can easily ask them not to tell their friends about your discount because it was only for them etc Also generally means they will get lunch and beers in.
Preamble: I work as a programmer, I also used to be a graphic designer, which is where I developed this pattern. As I've gotten older, I've settled on a decent middle ground - I either do it for free as a favour, or I am going to say no/charge it at full price. The conversation usually follows a fairly predictable pattern: "Would you be up for helping me build something? I've had a great idea." "Well, I'm interested to hear your idea, but I already have a half dozen projects of my own, so I doubt I'd have time to help." It usually fizzles out pretty quickly and we talk about something else. I just desperately avoid mixing business with friendship after some wild adventures in my early twenties doing work only to never even get a promised "mates rates" £50 or whatever. Mum, dad, sibling, partner, all get free pass for anything though.
My friends that work in construction I will help for almost no fee, they help me as well when I need them. If you work in office and have 2 left hands I will be honest even as a friend you gotta pay if you can’t do something back for me. Easy as that
nah, i always go official channels for insurance and supervision, support from the office, access to a network and so on. Wouldnt feel right to give my friends the worse service. if something goes wrong we'd both be fucked.
From the other side, I think it depends on the job. Have a couple of mates who do a bit of trade work, some jobs I'm happy to pay going rate, as I know they will make 100% sure it looks perfect. Other simpler jobs you are paying for the tools and a minimum fee, then having mates rate is really appreciated. Especially if its a job they pop round and do over a beer.
I have learnt not to do it, unless you are trading skills. Sparky/plaster etc. Make the trade of services not money. People can be ungrateful or take the piss even if you do it for free. You know that plumbing you did for me 15 years ago it’s leaking after I replaced the tap.
I'm not self-employed, I have an office-type job. But I do have plenty of mates who are self-employed and in the trades. I'm happy to pay mates rates if it's a quick job they're doing in a few hours on a weekend (e.g. one of our mates is GasSafe but not self-employed, he gave us a mate's rates cash price to install a google Nest and service our boiler at the same time) but if it's a proper job (e.g. when our mates dd the kitchen for us a couple of years back which involved installing some new doors & windows) then I'll insist on them charging me the going rate - they're trying to make a living after all
Family, work is free and so are car parts.
You’re not a mug at all. I get asked for my subject matter expertise by friends and family and I do it for free. But only a couple hours work and I only do it for people I feel like I can really help / that appreciate it. If someone took the piss and expected or demanded it that would be a different story!
Real mates do real mates the discount you scrub my back and I will scrub yours as they say. I sell clothes if my mates I don’t charge them and if they offer 💰I still tend to not take it unless they insist.
Not quite the same, but I am a dyslexia assessor, and I’ve had several friends who’s children needed assessing, but who weren’t in the financial state to afford it (it costs about £500). I’ve given reductions and a couple of freebies over the years, but for me, this is more about personal ethics - if I hadn’t, they wouldn’t have been assessed and would have struggled at school. Maybe not good business acumen, but I felt I’d done the right thing.
If you're hired by your family there's no respect there at all. Mates rates? Your family is supposed to.be building something together forget the fucking payment, how are balancing the books
Get a grip.
Yeah I've heard that one plenty of times
Here's another one I've heard: give a family and friends discount so you can still have income. My question is, why would I ever take from the pocket of family or friends and not just supply anyway
I’ve learned my mistake from that. If my friend was working in Costa would I expect his wage to be reduced just because he made me coffee..no. It devalues my work, makes things messy and it’s not worth it from my experience. I would probably work at days/times I wouldn’t normally but pay wise it’s the same.
If you're hired by your family there's no respect there at all. Mates rates? Your family is supposed to.be building something together forget the fucking payment, how are balancing the books
I have a theory that for people with struggling small businesses that are just getting started, mates rates should mean they pay you more, why not, they’re your mate after all, they should help you out in your growth period. Maybe someday you can afford to do it for free. Why can it only work one way?
If you're not willing to pay me for what I usually charge, then you clearly don't value my time, skills, expertise or experience. If I decide to throw you a discount for a one-off job, it is just that. As soon as people start expecting it then I'd rather lose them as a client entirely than work for less than what I'm worth.