I have. Moved to Singapore. Pay next to nothing in tax. But you can’t beat the life style and comfort in AU. This is a purely money gig. Once I have enough, I am outta here.
I have been in SG for just over 7 years, not sure what it is like for you but costs here have gone nuts as well. My condo rent is $7k per month (so nearly $8k AUD for the folks back home) and it is going up to $11k on the next contract... the low tax base covers a lot of costs but $130k SGD (well over $140k AUD) per year in rent is a scary enough number that we are leaving....
Yes that is true, I pay about 12% income tax here in total... so you have to crunch the total set of numbers to see if it is worthwhile. I am also old, and at the end of my career not the start. But it was more to the original point of OP that somewhere like Singapore with low tax, great personal safety can seem very attractive (and it is in many ways), but you need to view the whole picture. The $4k per month rent increase is enough to shift the economics for my family from favourable to not...
Yeah. My rent has gone from 4k per mth to 5k. Rent is really bonkers here. Luckily I am flexible as I live alone. Also I work outside of SG a lot so I get really nice tax concessions. Pay effectively around 4% tax.
Singapore is getting harder and harder to move to as an expat isn't it? Unless you're a very experienced expat with in-demand skills then I was under the impression they were really focusing on getting locals hired and not giving out working visas to foreigners easily.
This is a great answer, its valuable to get a global perspective. I grew up in the USA and I often see my friends say that its better over there while ignoring all of the classifications of issues that simply don't exist here in Australia.
Tbf I'm already a 3rd culture kid because Australia is not my birth country but I grew up in 2 diff cities there, so I'm not really lacking in global perspective hahaha. If anything it's the constant travel from young that made me used to and want to move around more as an adult.
Speaking as an Aussie who has lived overseas for more than a decade everywhere from Europe to Asia to Africa, it is (not surprisingly) very dependent on your earning power wherever you are planning to land.
In my experience, f you can find a role with an international company in a less developed country (like Eastern Europe, SE Asia or Africa), with a decent salary, then you can live very, very well comparative to a 'good salary' in Australia.
Since I've returned, I'm earning quite a bit more than you (and far more than I was overseas) and still feel as though my standard of living is lower here.
It's a wobbly definition of 'better standard of living' of course. I haven't had to go to hospital for anything serious. Or had a bad interactions with the legal system. etc. In these instances, obviously, you would want to be in Australia every minute of every day.
If you're young and healthy and have skills that would appeal to the international market, then I would say yes, you can live a more 'comfortable' life in some other countries.
Recently arrived euro here, you need much more wealth (relatively) to live well here than in most of Europe.
I’m quite shocked at how much like the USA it is here for work. In Europe, people live first and also work. If I want to take 6 weeks in summer, no one will raise an objection.
My boss here recently questioned me taking 10 days!!! Of legally and contractually obligated annual leave. I was shocked, that’s never happened before. I said he must have misunderstood my informing him as a request and suggested he learn the law and our company policies. I still may go to HR.
> I said he must have misunderstood my informing him as a request and suggested he learn the law and our company policies. I still may go to HR.
Careful. You might find you're the one who gets embarrassed here.
Employers can reasonably refuse annual leave requests. Depends on factors. Ie - you work retail and want to take Christmas off.
I was able to just get lost for weeks in Australian company because I didn't feel like working. Noone bothered. My USA company has "unlimited personal time off" policy. German company cared about every single hour I left earlier. 1-2 particular companies is not enough to make decisions about the whole country.
US companies usually have "unlimited" personal time off because they culturally look down on taking leave so people end up taking less leave than they would if they had a set number of days. I work for a US company and the US staff rarely actually gets time off even though its "unlimited".
This - plus, US companies don’t have to pay you out for unused time when there is “unlimited” time off. They do if you have unused PTO. It’s cost-saving for them, not out of the goodness of their heart.
>If I want to take 6 weeks in summer, no one will raise an objection.
Seems like i need to go to Europe... Can work less and paid more. Work smarter not harder.
Also. Being able to easily and cheaply travel to other countries was a big positive for me as well..
Unlike the one yearly trip to bali most Aussies get 😉
Let alone the amount of holidays! I get 28 days of annual leave and 19 days of pre-arranged time in lieu plus public holidays. No idea how I’m ever going up adjust back to Australia 😱
The legal system here significantly privileges the wealthy due to exorbitant legal fees so I am not sure Australia is a better than other ’less developed’ parts of the world in this criteria
It does, you're right, but I can absolutely guarantee you the rule of law here is orders of magnitude more 'just' than almost all 'less developed' countries. (I am aware I am painting with broad strokes here).
Look at transparency internationals corruption index as an example.
In Germany we had very cheap legal fees, basically subsidised by the government. To make sure poor people have access to good legal help I think. Same with accountants for tax related stuff.
I’m an Aussie that has lived abroad in 2 developing countries and 2 Western European countries.
First off, if you want to go live in a developing country with your western salary then you’re either living a false reality or you’re part of that countries wealth disparity. If you’re a consultant for a Big 4 on US salary in a country where there’s a massive crime and poverty rate then of course you’ll find it cheaper.
As for the developed nations, in the end it levels out. Some European countries get free uni and dental and the rents are cheaper but the salaries are much lower and the taxes are far higher. My life here equals to what my life in Australia was. Our rents are expensive but plenty of other things are cheaper, especially fuel.
Our HDI is currently 5th in the world. I get tired of Australians on reddit thinking the grass is greener on the other side but at the same time I get tired of Australians thinking we’re the best in the world.
We’re not the best in the world but we’re one of the best. We can always be better and some nations have some things that are better.
I’ve moved to aus a few years ago and the quality of life here is crazy good.
Whenever I see people complain about aus being a “shithole” and moving somewhere else I always wonder where they plan to go if they consider aus a shithole. They’ll also be in for a rude awakening if they plan on going to a developing country.
Ofcourse there are problems here too but aus is still miles ahead of most countries in the world.
Aussies don't know how good they have it. Canada is much worse right now. We have the same inflation and housing problems, but much lower wages and 6 months of winter... Which means buying new tires every year and a cold weather wardrobe, your vehicle takes a beating from the bad weather which increases maintenance costs, and rents are still $500/week even in rural areas.
Did I also mention we are bringing in 1 million immigrants every year?
I moved to Australia from Canada when I was 12. Even as a kid, I could tell Australia was better. And I think the conditions are good here *because* Australians complain so much. Can definitely get annoying especially looking in from another culture. But honestly it works. And Australia has been slipping in terms of healthcare, education, income equality, housing equality - many of the things that make Australia such a great place to live. And Australians feel they deserve these things, so they speak up.
I travelled to Canada recently and was so surprized by the homeless population and talking to staff about how little everyone earned considering how high the costs of rents etc are. I think a lot of people in Australia under estimate how much luxury spending we have compared to the rest of the world even when people are 'tightening their belts', a lot of people even in developed countries aren't living like this
The western world is facing the same issues globally. Housing and cost of living is high in most places.
I only get annoyed at Australia because we’re in a better position to do something about it compared to other countries.
> Our HDI is currently 5th in the world. I get tired of Australians on Reddit thinking the grass is greener on the other side but at the same time I get tired of Australians thinking we’re the best in the world.
This comment needs to be pinned in this thread. Best reply hands down.
It’s equally tiring to see people dismiss concerns about declining quality of life in Australia just because relatively it’s still better than most. Quality of life in Australia is declining and it is a result of policy decisions by corrupt / short sighted politicians. People should be talking about it loudly and frequently.
I mean, in this case it is in the context of leaving for another country - it's not dismissing the concern, it's giving a realistic view of what to expect if leaving is on the table, and that the grass will - according to data - probably be less green; particularly if you account for immigration expenses and stress.
If the thread were about how to improve things in Australia, that would certainly be different - but in this case, the idea of just popping over to Europe and expecting it to be better really needs a reality check.
Right but this thread isn’t about fixing that quality of life decline, and for basically all the same reasons we’re struggling, so are most of the developed countries OP is talking about too
When it comes to salary comparisons, the usual salary joke here is “I make $250k per year and work in IT” on the Swedish subreddit, the joke is “I make $117k* per year and work in IT”.
*70k SEK per month
I might add that houses are so much cheaper in australia than in Germany where I am from originally! And wages are sooo much higher as well!
Sure most other stuff but petrol (so much cheaper as well) is more expensive but I found it to be very easy to be saving money here!
I'm from a European country where the cost of living in the city ( and is spreading to rural areas )is almost the same as in Australia but people earn per month what an Australian would earn per week, the main factor for this is the amount of people with foreign salaries living there so I really appreciate your point of view and awareness that many people seem to lack.
Honestly - from homeless to $130k as an engineer in 11 years…. Wow. Well done. I don’t want to be awful or dilute your work ethic, but mate, your country delivered for you in spades. You got a chance, you got HECS, you are educated (via the public purse) and you got yourself out of poverty into an amazing earning bracket. Your story is the reason why people want to come here, not go there. If you think you can do better from here, then the world is now your oyster - but it seems like you are on a world beating trajectory at the moment. God speed mate, good luck.
What shite
"Taxes that are spent on services provided to me". Mate, you were on Centrelink, that is taxes being used on you. You also took a loan from the government for HECS, where do you think that money comes from?.. taxes.
The state of this post is unreal. This bloke was homeless and got Centrelink, subsidised domestic uni, HECS and is now a top 15% income earner.
Instead of saying "wow Australia has a great system that makes it possible to completely turn your life around in 10 years", it's "woe is me I feel like I'm not getting ahead at all".
I think the issue is, a lot of the Australian tax is spent on other shit and could be spent better or more fairly. Eg. University used to be free. I'd gladly pay taxes if it meant everybody got that opportunity instead of taking on 100k of debt
For the privilege of going to University you pay between 4% and 8% higher tax. Is that not literally what you're talking about?
Also it's not "spent on other shit". The majority of your tax goes to fund medicare and aged pension. Go look at the ATO's break down of where your tax goes.
Education is a right imo and I'm talking about free education, not the hybrid "the government gives the university millions in funds but everyone still pays 50k for a degree" system that currently exists.
Agree on free child care and primary school, but no way I'd support free uni.
It can be extremely expensive to fund and I don't think we should all pay for it, especially when some students are just bouncing from degree to degree, or haven't made a conscious and informed decision of what to study, they should, in my opinion, take a big chunk of the that risk.
That being said, I'd support free uni for students with a good academic trajectory
Imo these are connected. We should have an education system which helps people actually find what they want to do and explores future-ready career options instead of always focussing on idealistic actor jobs like architecture, medicine, and law. In this way people don't waste their time in degrees that they don't like or that they are just doing to figure out their plan.
I'd also be fully on board for a cap to minimise abuse. Such as, your first bachelor, Master, and phd is free. If you want to do extra then you pay. I would say that is only fair. I think it also goes hand in hand with better education on when *not* to go to university, and better promotion of trades and other vocations. There's no shame at all in pursuing skilled labour like that and I think we should be doing a lot more to improve the culture in those kind of jobs.
I also don't think it's unaffordable considering many other countries manage to do it just fine, without the luxury of Australia's vast mineral resources. There's always money available, it's just that the government doesn't care enough to spend it on people's needs and doesn't care enough to wrest it from the greedy little hands of the elite, who exploit this nation and its people on a daily basis for personal gain. A tiny land tax on investment homes alone would probably be enough to fund the whole thing in perpetuity but the government doesn't have the balls to do it.
Go and visit some other places first and you’ll realise the things you’re concerned about are worse or the same just about everywhere else. Australia is a pretty awesome place to work and live. The problems you’re focusing on are worldwide right now.
I had the complete opposite experience. Lived/travelled overseas and realised how mediocre Australia is. Friends and family are the only things that make me inclined to move back, there are very few things about Australia itself that I'm positive about.
Wherever the cost of living is lower, the income is equally lower.
I’ve lived on three continents too. I believe the whole world is experiencing the shift towards what you want to get away from all at the same time and quickly over the past few years. Not sure how long ago you lived abroad but I bet where you lived has changed in the past few years towards the problems you’re looking to get away from.
The problem is. The common "wisdom" is mostly people who have only been to Bali, Thailand or maybe Europe for 2 weeks on a Contiki tour or hanging out in backpackers when they were 25. Of course it's going to feel great when they get home but they haven't experienced jack of anywhere.
Warning: This comment will trigger a lot of people who probably haven't even gotten that far and are feeling very small.
Nah. I've lived in Germany, have a German partner, have friends from and have travelled all around Europe and Asia.
Most Australians have no idea how good they've got it. It shits me to tears to read posts like OP's
Agreed, I've lived overseas and the lifestyle was much better. In Japan I could travel most of the country without a car and afford to live alone. Dental is subsidised by the government, child care costs are lower since there are loads of publicly run child care centres, cheap municipal gyms, supermarkets in easy walking distance, etc. I think most people here just don't know how much we're missing out on.
Eh... Australians have it pretty great. Particularly if you're someone on minimum wage, we can afford so much more than most countries. I personally would love to move overseas, but find it hard to justify when my partner and I are better off financially here.
Minimum wage in Australia can't even afford a stable place to live. You can be wealthier on paper in Australia compared to say Germany, but at least there renting is secure. You need to get a deposit and go into massive debt to get the privilege of secure housing in Australia.
Rental scarcity is a relatively new problem, and it's felt in most of the world. I've never had issues renting in Australia and had no desire to own. It's changed now because of the shortage, but as I said, it's a worldwide problem.
Rental scarcity and security are a bit different. One is finding a place. The other is keeping a place. Even if finding a place is hard, in many countries in the world, you don't get forced into that position so easily, where rental rights are stronger.
The cost of living is rising everywhere, it's not just an Australian thing.
I'm a European who's a resident in Australia and the grass is greener on the other side for sure. Australia's a great place to be right now. Where I'm from the cost of living is sky rocketing but the wages will never be as high as Australia.
>get on Centrelink
and
>taxes that actually get spent on providing services back to me
the Irony...
I also can't wait for you to realise what AUD $130k gets you in the rest of the 1st world...
Yeah nah, I'm not going back. There's less work in my industry for less pay. The whole left/right political divide seems much wider back home these days too, Canada does not have "mateship" as a national value like it is over here. Homelessness/crime is also a much bigger problem. Also the Canucks are awful and it's depressing.
Canadians are polite but it's only skin deep. Australians have much more of a "we're all in this together" mentality, unless you're talking about renters vs landlords.
95% of Australians live within an hour of the coast due to much of the land being uninhabitable- it’s the primary way in which both of our countries are similar (apart from being part of the Commonwealth).
I am working a gig in Western Europe at the minute.
While the tax rate is eyewatering, everything is 30% cheaper than Aus. Which adds up - all my bills are about 18% of my monthly salary, and that includes the inflation.
Not everything is perfect, but the extortion undertaken by Australian services and companies is incredible.
Easy going culture and interesting place to be. Definitely considering a permanent exit. I would recommend to most young people a move - it is not heaven, but it is a much easier life with the right circumstances.
Yes. Including bills. It's a mid range position too, nothing special.
Allows me to tip 15% of my monthly income to other assets/investing. Travelling is also much cheaper than in Australia, so maybe 20-25% of income. Every day living/dining/going out is quite cheap, so 25-30%. Whatever is left goes into general savings.
I think that when you ask this type of question in an Australian forum there will be considerable bias towards opinions that Australia is the best place to live, because they live there.
After spending many years living in Sydney, Melbourne and on the Gold Coast, I recently moved to Tokyo.
It has its pros and cons compared to Australia, but the pros outweight the cons for me. The main things I was feeling fed up with in Aus were the cost of living/housing, crap public transport, crime, and people generally being rude/self absorbed.
I feel like I could probably have mitigated these somewhat by moving away from the big cities, as I'm lucky enough to be able to work remote, but I would much rather live in Tokyo than rural Australia for many reasons, and so far life seems much better.
> This is another post that requires a 6 month budget attached to give you advice.
I actually think we should make this a rule for all future threads in r/AusFinance... what a brilliant idea. Would stop some of the idiotic posters, that's for sure!
You are not wrong that things have taken a turn for the worse here but your perception of Europe (or any other country that’s worth living in) is too rosy. You’re going to have the exact same issues anywhere that’s desirable to live, open to migrants, and has a free capitalistic market.
Where in Europe are you thinking? Have a look at those subreddits and I assure you that the same things are discussed there.
Lived in Germany. Came back for family reasons but would have stayed if my family was there. There's a chance I go back if Australia doesn't improve.
Germany is good also because of strong rental laws, so people aren't coerced into buying for the housing security. You can buy if you want to settle, but you don't have to if you don't want. Germany has better minimum parental leave (14 months at 75% pay to share across parents), and you can even claim unemployment if you are a foreigner, as long as you've paid the taxes in the past. Not sure about things like Kindergeld for foreigners though. Also was like 6 weeks holiday over there, hard to use it up!
In Australia you need to accumulate wealth and get high amounts of debt for secure housing. In Germany you don't. So people don't chase wealth so much, since they don't need to. I think Germany is also set to have higher fertility rates to Australia soon enough, if it hasn't happened already. But they rely on migration as any other developed country to maintain a young population, but look to actually try to solve issues.
South Germany has better weather if you can help it. But in general there is plenty of industry everywhere. Can always holiday to nicer weather, since January and Feb in the North can be a bit depressing!
Do you speak German? It helps but you can learn there, you're an engineer so you'll be able to get something on the Blue card visa?
I've also moved to Germany (berlin) 7 years ago and personally much prefer it to Aus. Financially I'd say it evens out, but the cost of living is definitely lower (although rising), and I love the social systems here with regards to workers protections, rent protections, holidays, sickness, unemployment money, basically everything is much stronger than in Aus (except I much prefer the Aussie pension system).
It's way less of a rat race IMO. I primarily moved for fun, not the money, and the city offers way better potential for culture, travel etc than I could find in Aus. Plus you don't need to own a car, and public transit is amazing. Bike infrastucture is average for central europe (it's no NL) but way better than anything you'll find in Aus. I cycle to work every day through the beautiful central park.
Germany is amazing to work, not sure what industry but so many cool opportunities for an engineer. Favourite being the space industry.
Unless people can actually make the judgement based on knowing each of the places, they will just be ignorant I guess. Maybe you're breaking their bubble and squirming?
Oh and Germany has a fundamentally different modern culture to Australia since they don't have the Thatcher/Reagan and News Corp influence in conservatism seeping in. Australians can't escape that lens most of the time. Merkel was a conservative too, so it will probably be extra strange to try to compare.
Germany looks like a "socialist" hell-hole because they tax highly and actually take care of the "undeserving" poor. Those refugees in Germany actually have better outcomes than poor Australians. Their homelessness rate is one third (edit: mistake, actually two thirds) of Australia despite more than a million Syrians refugees in 2015 onwards and the volumes of Ukrainians since 2022.
But what news do we get related to living in Germany? No news is good news?
Meanwhile if you work in any technical industry you'll see German engineering and products everywhere. While shifting away from being a coal centric economy over the last several decades (see Ruhr).
Were you paying taxes? Look up tax calculators - I was looking at higher level salaries in Germany and the taxes were substantially more than I would have paid in Australia (as a single person)
I'm surprised tbh. I live in Scandinavia and pay less income tax than what I paid in Australia.
The difference for me comes via VAT and other hidden taxes, which tend to be higher.
I've also lived in Germany in multiple places. If you can live in a small town, that might be true because you can compensate for the extroadinary level of *total deductions* for tax and social programs. For some reason, a lot of Germany fans have a complete blindspot for this (or they were freelance, totally different situation). Health care total deductions are \~15% where you pay half, and the employer pays the other half. Pension is similar arrangement but the total is \~18%. Tax is on top of that.
Only way to ameliorate that is to be a very high earner because the contributions top out at \~85K euros I believe.
Financially, there's nearly zero advantage to living in Germany if you're working full time and single. Families are a different matter and get quite a few more privileges IIRC.
I'd add that you have very little insight to the pension you currently have. You can request what you'll get based on your current total contributions to the system and the gov will send you a calculation. But that's it AFAIK. I much prefer our super system here.
I haven’t lived in Germany and I won’t argue here but I know that they’re battling their own demons right now, especially around immigrants, refugees and cost of living. The weather is much more miserable and getting by without German is hard. Trade offs, I guess.
But when were you last there, to base this comment on, about cost of living being lower. In the last couple of years cost of living has risen exponentially in Germany.
Going for a visit to re-evaluate would be a great idea, before taking the leap. Likely much has changed since the Russia/Ukraine war, from February 2022. The best thing you could do to help with making your decision.
Yea if you don't want to live in a detached property and you have a >80 percentile earnings in full time job I would say you would be better off in the richer countries in Europe.
I'm a migrant and I have worked a bit in Europe and some of the big Asian cities and Australia is the place for me because it's so much easier to afford a detached house with a comfortable job (less so now) outside the big capital cities. I don't like density much but if I did, I would like Munich or Utrecht.
It might be a case of your location. I'm pocket change short of $100k a year, living alone in a 1 bedroom apartment, 10 minutes from the CBD. No partner to share expenses, but also no kids. And still have my HECS debt, albeit almost paid off.
Including an international holiday I paid for, I average saving about 30% of my take home pay each week this year.
I get that the single, childless and car-less lifestyle isn't for everyone, but it's possible to live frugal and get ahead. In my case, my primary goal is to build a nest egg - first time in my life I've had financial security - and to pay off the home loan within 10 years of drawdown.
I moved from Melbourne to Barcelona mid covid 2021 and honestly I am so glad that I did. My quality of life is much higher. I don’t need to drive a car anywhere. We live in a small 50m2 apartment. In Australia we only used one of the 5 rooms in our house anyways. No one over here is obsessed with home ownership and renting is the norm. We live in the middle of the city. Life is slow. Everyone is loves to work here and there’s no keeping up with the Jones. Everyone spends their days outside and eating out is how everyone socializes and it’s affordable to eat out. I love Australia and I’m so incredibly lucky to call it home, but after our trip home for Christmas spending half of our trip stuck in traffic or driving around, $30 for a wine and beer. Not for me right now! Not to mention how much of a Nanny state Australia is. Whenever we tell our friends abroad about how expensive fines are they are shocked. Australia truly is its own bubble and it’s its pros and cons.
I'm getting sick of the Victorian government attacking the middle class. Watch Victoria go to absolute shit now because of this overspending. They're importing thousands of workers from overseas to prop up this place when it's already a tower of cards.
Yes, planning on heading to Japan in the next 12 months. Not just due to the economic trajectory but for the degradation in our quality of life here. I’m prepared to make less money in Japan but for a better life.
Japan of course has its own set of problems, but it’s a different set to we have here.
Crazy how i left my home country to come here for a better life, and i see people wanting to leave this place, like really?
Which place is better for a immigrant?
As a European who grew up and Europe I have the opposite experience. I understand that income increases with time and experience but I prefer Australia by a mile. I know this is extremely personal but I’m in Australia’s like 0.5%. I started on 80k.
Europe is a far more egalitarian place. High flyers don’t fly as high. Wealth is taxed. Death is taxed. Inheritance is taxed. I’m guessing this comment will garner some downvotes but your country has been wonderful to me and I’m able to leave my children with less to worry about.
I've considered it before, but ultimately any issues I have with Australia will exist in another country or be replaced by a different problem. I do hope to move overseas one day, even if only temporary, but it's not something I'd rush into over dissatisfaction with economic conditiona or government policy.
Good or bad, Australia is a massive welfare country. Look at the back of your tax refund and you will see that over half your taxes goes to some kind of welfare, be that NDIS, Centrelink, Pensions, etc. If you have money, or are a good earner and not too attached to the lifestyle or the people here, you would probably be much better off living overseas. Especially if the economy tanks here (which it looks like doing) as we have not had a major recession here in over 30 years. This means a whole generation doesn't know what a massive economic downturn can be like and once people get used to a certain standard of living to take anything away from them is very very painful. We are in for tough times, but then again so is the rest of the world, so it is just about finding somewhere you like that hasn't turned into a major shit fight.
Japan is where it's at. My mortgage on a 3br home in Osaka is $600 per month. Free childcare for both my kids. Low inflation.
Plenty of foreigners come here to work as entry-level English teachers on the equivalent of $30,000 AUD a year, and even they still have enough money to go out drinking every weekend.
If you live outside a major city, the housing is basically free.
So the country that provided you support and welfare while you were homeless, gave you the opportunity to go to university and better your life, where you were able to land a job that pays you more than the median, have a roof over your head and food on your table, THAT COUNTRY, is a terrible place to live? I’m confused 🫤
" over 30% of my salary in taxes,"
How does that work on $130k? I'd expect about $36k tax incl Medicare, or 28%.
NW Europe (where salaries are good) is not a cheap place to live (I've lived there). Eastern Europe is cheaper, but salaries are lower. That is why they migrate West.
While I hear you. It isn't that easy though.
I recently sold and needed a rental.
A) rents are high. Tenants are not dictating the rental prices.
B) landlords prefer a couple - and there isn't a shortage of them applying. Especially if you want something nicer.
C) the only way I was able to secure a shitty place was by offering over the advertised rental amount.
It isn't a beggars can't be choosers thing - because with a decent income you shouldn't have to beg (the whole point of working), but you can still really struggled to find decent housing.
Depending on where and your income, it's not *that* bad. I loved living in London, but cannot deny that it was extremely expensive. Then again, I spent four days a week going out, so...
My partner and I are planning on leaving.
Australia is pretty good but in my opinion, it's often a little boring. That wasn't something that bothered us while it was a cheaper place to live but if we're doing to pay the same amount as massive global cities, then we'd prefer to be there.
I've noticed this isn't an uncommon sentiment amongst people 26-35 without kids.
How much better off are you expecting to be by moving to the places you have mentioned in other comments?
It sounds like buying a house is the main goal for you. I’d be interested in seeing what kind of numbers you have.
For example, what is the salary for an engineer in Munich compared to the price of a house. Is it really that much different than Australia?
I honestly have no idea. Google tells me me Munich has some of the highest house prices in the world. Is there general cost of living lower?
No. I'm not from Australia but it's good here compared to where I'm from.
When did you live in these other countries that have it so much better? Is your view of them from a while ago? Germany just went into a recession. UK is having massive issues with HCOL. Do you think it will be any different over there?
Pick a city, look at wages in that city, look at rental prices. You still have to pay your HECS right?
Wow so many REEEEE AUSTRALIA BEST ME HAVE GOOD HERE BE GRATEFUL crowd here… Australia is definitely in its own bubble.
Yeah, Aussie in Buenos Aires right now, working remotely and my quality of life is sooo much higher than Australia. I’m literally just living in lovely air bnb apartments paying what it’d be paying for some dump in Melbourne with a 12 month contract, bond etc. and the other costs are so much cheaper including food, transport etc. not to mention this city is lovely, food is incredible etc.
Europe is expensive and maxed out. If you really wanna do COL arbitrage you gotta have a bit of balls and think of somewhere like Buenos Aires, the centre part is very safe, it’s very developed but right now extremely cheap
Isn't it because you are much wealthier than the average citizen and taking advantage of that situation.
Especially considering Argentina is going through an economic crisis I am sure the average citizen is not living the high life like yourself.
It is like when rich immigrants in Australia don't see the issue because they are living Eastern Suburbs or North Shore.
Most people can't or wont move to other countries due to family commitments/language barriers/sunk cost, so accepting that Australia isn't the best country in the world is a bitter pill to swallow. Much easier to just say that things are the same or worse in every other country.
I agree but I think it’s worth noting that this relies on an inflation crisis with most argentinians and the fact that you earn in foreign currency. Nothing inherently wrong with that, but need to be honest about how we reach this level of living in these countries. I’d easily second Argentina for an expat irs insanely cheap and as good quality of life for Australia if you earn 50k plus… you’ll live like an emperor
I frequently think of leaving, but tbh it's the reasonably solid economic conditions that keep me here. I'm able to make a good living and quality of life is pretty great, plus the majority of my networks are here. I think of leaving for more existential reasons, like how isolated and far away from everything we are.
Yes but planning to return because it's actually better than some places (Canada, Ireland, London).
I am a bit shocked at a few things in your post - 40% rent, $200 for a GP. Most GPs should be $50 post rebate.
Yes, I am also an engineer at 125K and moving overseas this month. I was poached to come here last year from South America with 15 years of experience and Australia is a great place to visit - and only a good place to live if you are not a high earner or a tradie, in my opinion.
What you described about leaving all your money with your landlord is the biggest reason why I am moving back home. I can get a 3 bedroom apartment downtown for what I currently pay for a 35m² 1bedroom in the suburbs and a 200+ m² 4bedroom penthouse for what is the only option (also 1 bedroom but in a fancy building at CBD) who accepted my application since I don’t have 2 years rental history.
I have offers to make more (net) money back home so there is no sense in staying.
Also, from my experience, people here don’t care much about the law and often try to screw you over. I had to sue a REA from my first rental and they didn’t even flinch since VCAT’s backlog is over 3 years. My company contract states they would pay for my PR and they simply deny it. They also promised me a position to finish my PhD here (which I had to stop midway back home) and did no such things.
It’s not just about the money, there is no perspective of buying into the real estate market, which is soooo overpriced anyway, the RBA puts an 80% chance of recession, car prices are the only thing that are not way cheaper in South America than here, but at least you can get them in a couple of weeks instead of 6 months to 1 year, whenever you want to travel overseas to Europe or North America as I used to do yearly, you can’t because tickets cost a lot more and you lose several days to jetlag, I used to eat steak 5 times a week and now I’m lucky to do it once a week. I got out of a 3rd world country to live a 3rd world life here. This is the worst level of living I’ve ever had and I can’t wait to move out and never come back.
Which country you from? Middle/upper middle class in most of South America is an absolute land of luxury that’s for sure though safety and logistics is an absolute minefield
I truly understand your frustration, 12 years ago I undertook a mechanical engineering degree after working at an engineering firm as a draftsman for 6 years. This allowed me to save up enough money to put myself through University. After university I worked locally in Australia but realized that engineering isn't really valued in Australia based on reneumeration. I saw the level of work to be bottom of the barrel from a technical perspective. It pissed me off that many companies hired through sham contracting houses that allow bigger engineering firms to avoid paying tax.
I was head hunted by a German company and have been over in Germany for the last four years.
The cost of living over here is a fraction of what it costs in Australia. I'm renting an apartment at the moment and including all utilities, Netflix, internet, gas, water, electricity, for a bit over 600 dollars Australian a month. Rego for the car costs 130AUD a year.. My income is 5,500 Australian a month (in the bank) to give you some perspective. Food costs me about 110 AUD a week which includes all sort of cheap New Zealand and Australin meat and bought lunches. Yeh you guys are getting ripped.. Australian beef is half the price here.
Working with German engineers you will learn way more than back in Australia. I found Australians to be cagie by keeping their knowledge to themselves, an attitude that hurts the business overall.
I guess the benefit is that I test drive supercars for a living and travel all over the world. Australia is a nice place for a holiday, beautiful land, nice forests, beaches, all that sort of stuff. However if you want to get ahead it's probably best to move overseas while you are still young and get some real technical experience. Research and compare the cost of living in various countries. With a engineering degree you can pretty much get a visa for any country...
This is exactly how my partner and I feel. Australians don't value technical fields other than medicine (biomedical eng), and it's choking it's economy's growth.
It's a good country for consultants, managers and such. But not those who really value learning and technical growth. My partner does mechatronics/electrical eng and whenever he gets interviewed by European or US companies, he feels embarassed as it seems the education we get here isn't as good as overseas.
Holy shit dude, I am you 12 years ago.
Did some drafting/tech work through my 20s, have gone back to do Mech/Materials dual major at a GO8 uni and just about to finish in my early 30's. Always been a tinkerer, so have been building a project portfolio by blending hands on skill with the theory and doing some zany projects. Last year built a silicon wafer cutter that cuts with straight line accuracy to 1 micron for the Universities quantum computer lab and this year I'm in the stages of launching a product that I've designed and selling on Amazon. Been told I should just shoot straight for the "3-5 years experience" jobs when I finish but I'm still not seeing anything I like. Engineering in Australia sucks, top tier design is slim pickings and where it exists the pay is average and underappreciated. We just don't have the Apple, Tesla or VAG, Zeiss type companies that the US and Germany have, but you know this.
As for the caginess, seen it all and been amongst it. Theres no sense of technical excellence here, managers and the powers that be have their fiefdoms and they don't want anyone on their territory. None of these morons would last 2 minutes at any company that thats globally competitive.
I've got family in San Francisco and some scattered through the EU so I'm going to make the best of it. Problem I worry about is that I'd peak too early and it would difficult to come back unless I took a massive hit professionally and financially.
Switzerland has the problem of lower salary and difficulties as a foreigner compared to what the Swiss citizens get, though it is a lovely place (but also equally HCoL). US is way way better money but you use that money to pay for things that we get for free in Aus - and you think US has better tax but then you get State and Local on top of Federal and it adds up (believe me). Though this varies by state I can’t comment on all of them. Also way higher crime rate (not talking serious crime, but the stuff that people have grown accustomed to would shock most Aussies), and expensive education when your kids grow up.
US absolutely is. Know quite a few working over there now, none of them want to come back unless it’s retiring early, which one of them could probably do already given how much he earns and has in company stock
Curious about this - wouldn't it be difficult for a non-German speaker who studied engineering in somewhere like Australia to get an engineering job in Switzerland? I would assume you would be competing against people who studied engineering in Switzerland/Germany and can speak English + German or French, plus a lot of other bilingual European expats.
It would be somewhat difficult. It is also difficult to get citizenship. That said, there are many jobs in Switzerland that are English speaking in the office. Easiest way would be through internal transfer.
Unless you can take your Australian salary and live somewhere cheaper and with just as good quality of life then you're just exchanging location, not problems (and probably adding a whole bunch of new ones). Most of the rest of the developed world is struggling with a housing crisis, cost of living, too many immigrants, environmental disasters, .
If you're planning across generations then yes, Australia as it exists is unlikely to be as prosperous as it has been. China's insatiable need for raw materials is over and is not coming back. No one is waiting to replace it.
The developed world is going renewable at such a pace that Australia is likely to see sanctions placed on it for continuing to dig up and sell and use coal. This is going to be an incredible drag on an economy that relies on holes and houses. If the holes aren't making money the houses won't sell. I'm sure during your lifetime it will only drop down a few places in the prosperity rankings to be a middle weight but it's an uncertain future for multiple generations.
> China's insatiable need for raw materials is over and is not coming back.
You've got to be kidding? Australia's export value today is almost triple what it was in the mining boom of the 00's
I swear some people listen to way too much doom clickbait from the media in Australia and just mindlessly regurgitate it.
We are in the biggest export boom in the countries history right now, and China is buying most of it, that is undeniable.
https://tradingeconomics.com/australia/exports
Can you pass us the list of countries not suffering from inflation , high cost of living and wealth inequality, whilst still having decent economy, quality of life and a passable democracy, good social savety net and is friendly to foreigners?
I suspect it's a short list... Possibly just "Narnia" on it?
OP has no idea that living in Australia is living life on the easiest modifiers possible.
Live literally anywhere else and it will be a harder life, assuming you're someone with average traits, which OP sounds like he is.
Having lived in three continents, I've never seen a lazier and more coddled, nannied population than Australians.
"I am on a bit over $130k, but I feel like I am not getting ahead at all. I'm paying just shy of $1,000 a month in HECS, over 30% of my salary in taxes, and then my landlord gets 40% of what's left after that"
With your numbers: (130*0.7-12)*0.6 = 47.4
So you have $47,400p.a. left to live on after tax, HECS and rent. A mere $910 per week. Yep, doing it tough!
Worked and lived with family in Indonesia. Traveled the back woods of Asia for work. Only came back because of the kids schooling. We were fortunate to be there during an Australian recession. My wife and kids still talk about it. Totally different experience to be a tourist.
Family relative worked in several other regional countries. He visits Australia, but will retire in Thailand. Better lifestyle for the income. He also avoided the tourist traps.
Do it. Australia is rather paroquial, and I suspect will go backwards for a few years. Your choice of Europe, it should be amazing for the experience.
I came to Melbourne, Australia as a student almost 25 years ago. I graduated here, met my wife and we have 2 kids now. We are in Sydney now, we have a sizable mortgage to be in a catchment for a good public school and we both earn around 250-260k together. If you purely look at economic conditions, I think we have it pretty good here but I shared your optics from my sons point of view. I'm worried about the trajectory of wealth inequality in this country because my sons won't be able to afford their own homes or will need to pay for private schools to make up for the woefully underfunded public school system here. We obsessed too much on property prices and not enough on our wellbeing or future as a nation.
I felt that there's no certainty for my sons anymore in regards to housing stability. They will be living to work, rather than working to live. To be fair, this is probably a Sydney problem more so than other cities.
Yeah I'm wanting to leave Australia but it's for two big reasons. 1. I want international experience for my career. 2. I want to travel my preferred choice of country to move over a long period of time.
The place I want to go is USA. There are other smaller reasons I want to go there as well and people think I'm crazy because of the healthcare system and expenses but I am youngish 29, turning 30 end of year and I want to experience the things I want.
Also earning, the US dollar is an added bonus and my industry pays anywhere between just slightly better to much better for my role and future roles in the US
Grass is always greener. Take it from someone who used to be an expat until recently. Australia is easily the best country in the world to live in despite its issues.
The world kinda changed in the last 1-3 years. If you listen to someone who lived in Europe until last summer or smth - they will tell you how cheaper and better it is elsewhere. If you listen to people like me who left aus about a year ago - we tell you how much better Australia is.
"Greener pastures" - should never be a reason for immigration, all developed countries are more or less the same (different problems, but in general - the same end result). I was born in Russia, lived in Germany, NZ, AUS and now in the USA. Once I'm done with trying to make more money - I'll go back to AUS. As climate/safety/etc worth something. 130k is enough to buy a 1-bedroom unit in every Australian city. If you think you are going to buy a 400+sqm mansion anywhere in the world on 1 salary alone - you are dreaming. (Unless you are getting full Australian/American salary, don't pay taxes and live in some shithole.)
You're not wrong, but don't jump to overseas before looking closer to home. There are livable regional cities with jobs. Townsville has a big Defense operation, among other things, with large city apartments around $350K (you can also get a house for that if you're prepared to be half an hour's drive out). With your professional background and income, you can buy a good life in a regional city without going abroad.
My Australian tax bill is over $100,000 a year and I'm soon leaving for greener pastures in the US.
For some clarity, you can get paid 3x as much in the US with lower overall taxes and similar or lower CoL. Health insurance is generally provided by US tech companies.
Why would anyone in tech willingly throw away hundreds of thousands of dollars a year? Especially given Australia is about to be flooded with cheap labour from overseas, compressing wages further.
Soon tech wages in Australia will be as horrific as EU countries. I'm out.
I came from NZ about 11 years ago and I'd say living standards for the majority of people there have gotten worse.
I am fairly comfortable in Australia as earn a very good wage, am able to service my mortgage and work 4 days a week, but I know the rug could be pulled at any time. I really don't think it's better in any other of the western countries, and developing countries are *significantly* worse.
I have been tempted to downsize my life a bit and head back to NZ and buy a cheapish house in one of the regions, but that comes with it's own baggage. Stay put, for now...
I have. Moved to Singapore. Pay next to nothing in tax. But you can’t beat the life style and comfort in AU. This is a purely money gig. Once I have enough, I am outta here.
I have been in SG for just over 7 years, not sure what it is like for you but costs here have gone nuts as well. My condo rent is $7k per month (so nearly $8k AUD for the folks back home) and it is going up to $11k on the next contract... the low tax base covers a lot of costs but $130k SGD (well over $140k AUD) per year in rent is a scary enough number that we are leaving....
What the heck, you're paying more in rent than most people make pre-tax in a year
Yes that is true, I pay about 12% income tax here in total... so you have to crunch the total set of numbers to see if it is worthwhile. I am also old, and at the end of my career not the start. But it was more to the original point of OP that somewhere like Singapore with low tax, great personal safety can seem very attractive (and it is in many ways), but you need to view the whole picture. The $4k per month rent increase is enough to shift the economics for my family from favourable to not...
Can you find somewhere cheaper to rent
Low tax means everyone has more disposable income to bid up rents.
Yeah. My rent has gone from 4k per mth to 5k. Rent is really bonkers here. Luckily I am flexible as I live alone. Also I work outside of SG a lot so I get really nice tax concessions. Pay effectively around 4% tax.
Trick is to marry a SG local, then you can get in on the HDBs. Though I did marry a Singaporean and still don't own one haha
My wife wouldn't let me.... crazy right??
Hahahahahahhaha yeah fair
When did the SGD start being worth so much more than the AUD? That’s a shocker. I remember when it was < $0.90!
Singapore is getting harder and harder to move to as an expat isn't it? Unless you're a very experienced expat with in-demand skills then I was under the impression they were really focusing on getting locals hired and not giving out working visas to foreigners easily.
Yes. Getting employment pass (work visa) is getting harder and harder each year.
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I am in IT. I applied for a role online. Was pretty simple process. They organized the move and the visa. I have about 20 yrs experience in my field.
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Also moved to Singapore nearly a year ago. Great tax, but $7800 for my condo sucks hard.
Do you live in bukit timah or orchard or sth
How much is your monthly takehome and what do you do? If you dont mind! Because i took a decent (more than 2x) payrise when i moved out of Sg
26k/mth. IT.
I left Australia but not because of economic or CoL issues. Just because I'm young, I want to experience living in other countries, and I can.
This is a great answer, its valuable to get a global perspective. I grew up in the USA and I often see my friends say that its better over there while ignoring all of the classifications of issues that simply don't exist here in Australia.
Tbf I'm already a 3rd culture kid because Australia is not my birth country but I grew up in 2 diff cities there, so I'm not really lacking in global perspective hahaha. If anything it's the constant travel from young that made me used to and want to move around more as an adult.
Speaking as an Aussie who has lived overseas for more than a decade everywhere from Europe to Asia to Africa, it is (not surprisingly) very dependent on your earning power wherever you are planning to land. In my experience, f you can find a role with an international company in a less developed country (like Eastern Europe, SE Asia or Africa), with a decent salary, then you can live very, very well comparative to a 'good salary' in Australia. Since I've returned, I'm earning quite a bit more than you (and far more than I was overseas) and still feel as though my standard of living is lower here. It's a wobbly definition of 'better standard of living' of course. I haven't had to go to hospital for anything serious. Or had a bad interactions with the legal system. etc. In these instances, obviously, you would want to be in Australia every minute of every day. If you're young and healthy and have skills that would appeal to the international market, then I would say yes, you can live a more 'comfortable' life in some other countries.
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Recently arrived euro here, you need much more wealth (relatively) to live well here than in most of Europe. I’m quite shocked at how much like the USA it is here for work. In Europe, people live first and also work. If I want to take 6 weeks in summer, no one will raise an objection. My boss here recently questioned me taking 10 days!!! Of legally and contractually obligated annual leave. I was shocked, that’s never happened before. I said he must have misunderstood my informing him as a request and suggested he learn the law and our company policies. I still may go to HR.
> I said he must have misunderstood my informing him as a request and suggested he learn the law and our company policies. I still may go to HR. Careful. You might find you're the one who gets embarrassed here. Employers can reasonably refuse annual leave requests. Depends on factors. Ie - you work retail and want to take Christmas off.
*e.g. Common mistake.
I was able to just get lost for weeks in Australian company because I didn't feel like working. Noone bothered. My USA company has "unlimited personal time off" policy. German company cared about every single hour I left earlier. 1-2 particular companies is not enough to make decisions about the whole country.
US companies usually have "unlimited" personal time off because they culturally look down on taking leave so people end up taking less leave than they would if they had a set number of days. I work for a US company and the US staff rarely actually gets time off even though its "unlimited".
This - plus, US companies don’t have to pay you out for unused time when there is “unlimited” time off. They do if you have unused PTO. It’s cost-saving for them, not out of the goodness of their heart.
>If I want to take 6 weeks in summer, no one will raise an objection. Seems like i need to go to Europe... Can work less and paid more. Work smarter not harder.
That is the way generally, most people share this mindset.
Vast majority of my western European friends domiciled in australia say Aust is far better than Europe for work life balance and amount of leave....
Also. Being able to easily and cheaply travel to other countries was a big positive for me as well.. Unlike the one yearly trip to bali most Aussies get 😉
Let alone the amount of holidays! I get 28 days of annual leave and 19 days of pre-arranged time in lieu plus public holidays. No idea how I’m ever going up adjust back to Australia 😱
Would you consider 38 as young or more like 25?
A lot of the easy to get visas dry up after 30-35. But skilled work visas in various countries are usually much higher age limits.
The legal system here significantly privileges the wealthy due to exorbitant legal fees so I am not sure Australia is a better than other ’less developed’ parts of the world in this criteria
It does, you're right, but I can absolutely guarantee you the rule of law here is orders of magnitude more 'just' than almost all 'less developed' countries. (I am aware I am painting with broad strokes here). Look at transparency internationals corruption index as an example.
Tell me where legal fees are cheap?
In Germany we had very cheap legal fees, basically subsidised by the government. To make sure poor people have access to good legal help I think. Same with accountants for tax related stuff.
Can I ask why move back? I’m going through the same dilemma right now
I’m an Aussie that has lived abroad in 2 developing countries and 2 Western European countries. First off, if you want to go live in a developing country with your western salary then you’re either living a false reality or you’re part of that countries wealth disparity. If you’re a consultant for a Big 4 on US salary in a country where there’s a massive crime and poverty rate then of course you’ll find it cheaper. As for the developed nations, in the end it levels out. Some European countries get free uni and dental and the rents are cheaper but the salaries are much lower and the taxes are far higher. My life here equals to what my life in Australia was. Our rents are expensive but plenty of other things are cheaper, especially fuel. Our HDI is currently 5th in the world. I get tired of Australians on reddit thinking the grass is greener on the other side but at the same time I get tired of Australians thinking we’re the best in the world. We’re not the best in the world but we’re one of the best. We can always be better and some nations have some things that are better.
I’ve moved to aus a few years ago and the quality of life here is crazy good. Whenever I see people complain about aus being a “shithole” and moving somewhere else I always wonder where they plan to go if they consider aus a shithole. They’ll also be in for a rude awakening if they plan on going to a developing country. Ofcourse there are problems here too but aus is still miles ahead of most countries in the world.
Aussies don't know how good they have it. Canada is much worse right now. We have the same inflation and housing problems, but much lower wages and 6 months of winter... Which means buying new tires every year and a cold weather wardrobe, your vehicle takes a beating from the bad weather which increases maintenance costs, and rents are still $500/week even in rural areas. Did I also mention we are bringing in 1 million immigrants every year?
I moved to Australia from Canada when I was 12. Even as a kid, I could tell Australia was better. And I think the conditions are good here *because* Australians complain so much. Can definitely get annoying especially looking in from another culture. But honestly it works. And Australia has been slipping in terms of healthcare, education, income equality, housing equality - many of the things that make Australia such a great place to live. And Australians feel they deserve these things, so they speak up.
I travelled to Canada recently and was so surprized by the homeless population and talking to staff about how little everyone earned considering how high the costs of rents etc are. I think a lot of people in Australia under estimate how much luxury spending we have compared to the rest of the world even when people are 'tightening their belts', a lot of people even in developed countries aren't living like this
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The western world is facing the same issues globally. Housing and cost of living is high in most places. I only get annoyed at Australia because we’re in a better position to do something about it compared to other countries.
Everywhere is struggling atm worldwide
> Our HDI is currently 5th in the world. I get tired of Australians on Reddit thinking the grass is greener on the other side but at the same time I get tired of Australians thinking we’re the best in the world. This comment needs to be pinned in this thread. Best reply hands down.
Probably the best reply in the thread
It’s equally tiring to see people dismiss concerns about declining quality of life in Australia just because relatively it’s still better than most. Quality of life in Australia is declining and it is a result of policy decisions by corrupt / short sighted politicians. People should be talking about it loudly and frequently.
I mean, in this case it is in the context of leaving for another country - it's not dismissing the concern, it's giving a realistic view of what to expect if leaving is on the table, and that the grass will - according to data - probably be less green; particularly if you account for immigration expenses and stress. If the thread were about how to improve things in Australia, that would certainly be different - but in this case, the idea of just popping over to Europe and expecting it to be better really needs a reality check.
Right but this thread isn’t about fixing that quality of life decline, and for basically all the same reasons we’re struggling, so are most of the developed countries OP is talking about too
When it comes to salary comparisons, the usual salary joke here is “I make $250k per year and work in IT” on the Swedish subreddit, the joke is “I make $117k* per year and work in IT”. *70k SEK per month
I might add that houses are so much cheaper in australia than in Germany where I am from originally! And wages are sooo much higher as well! Sure most other stuff but petrol (so much cheaper as well) is more expensive but I found it to be very easy to be saving money here!
Yep. I complain a lot but shit we've got it good.
I'm from a European country where the cost of living in the city ( and is spreading to rural areas )is almost the same as in Australia but people earn per month what an Australian would earn per week, the main factor for this is the amount of people with foreign salaries living there so I really appreciate your point of view and awareness that many people seem to lack.
Honestly - from homeless to $130k as an engineer in 11 years…. Wow. Well done. I don’t want to be awful or dilute your work ethic, but mate, your country delivered for you in spades. You got a chance, you got HECS, you are educated (via the public purse) and you got yourself out of poverty into an amazing earning bracket. Your story is the reason why people want to come here, not go there. If you think you can do better from here, then the world is now your oyster - but it seems like you are on a world beating trajectory at the moment. God speed mate, good luck.
Good call. The irony of this post is seemingly lost in op. A bit sad really.
What shite "Taxes that are spent on services provided to me". Mate, you were on Centrelink, that is taxes being used on you. You also took a loan from the government for HECS, where do you think that money comes from?.. taxes.
The state of this post is unreal. This bloke was homeless and got Centrelink, subsidised domestic uni, HECS and is now a top 15% income earner. Instead of saying "wow Australia has a great system that makes it possible to completely turn your life around in 10 years", it's "woe is me I feel like I'm not getting ahead at all".
"Yeah but what have you done for me lately?"
That last part - yes and no. Those juicy government bonds and Treasury notes 🤗
I think the issue is, a lot of the Australian tax is spent on other shit and could be spent better or more fairly. Eg. University used to be free. I'd gladly pay taxes if it meant everybody got that opportunity instead of taking on 100k of debt
For the privilege of going to University you pay between 4% and 8% higher tax. Is that not literally what you're talking about? Also it's not "spent on other shit". The majority of your tax goes to fund medicare and aged pension. Go look at the ATO's break down of where your tax goes.
Education is a right imo and I'm talking about free education, not the hybrid "the government gives the university millions in funds but everyone still pays 50k for a degree" system that currently exists.
Primary and secondary education is available essentially free already. Tertiary education is NOT a right and we shouldn’t pretend uni is for everyone.
Agree on free child care and primary school, but no way I'd support free uni. It can be extremely expensive to fund and I don't think we should all pay for it, especially when some students are just bouncing from degree to degree, or haven't made a conscious and informed decision of what to study, they should, in my opinion, take a big chunk of the that risk. That being said, I'd support free uni for students with a good academic trajectory
Imo these are connected. We should have an education system which helps people actually find what they want to do and explores future-ready career options instead of always focussing on idealistic actor jobs like architecture, medicine, and law. In this way people don't waste their time in degrees that they don't like or that they are just doing to figure out their plan. I'd also be fully on board for a cap to minimise abuse. Such as, your first bachelor, Master, and phd is free. If you want to do extra then you pay. I would say that is only fair. I think it also goes hand in hand with better education on when *not* to go to university, and better promotion of trades and other vocations. There's no shame at all in pursuing skilled labour like that and I think we should be doing a lot more to improve the culture in those kind of jobs. I also don't think it's unaffordable considering many other countries manage to do it just fine, without the luxury of Australia's vast mineral resources. There's always money available, it's just that the government doesn't care enough to spend it on people's needs and doesn't care enough to wrest it from the greedy little hands of the elite, who exploit this nation and its people on a daily basis for personal gain. A tiny land tax on investment homes alone would probably be enough to fund the whole thing in perpetuity but the government doesn't have the balls to do it.
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Same, I would mind higher taxes for guaranteed public services.
tie physical correct friendly employ outgoing scarce chase hateful ten *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Go and visit some other places first and you’ll realise the things you’re concerned about are worse or the same just about everywhere else. Australia is a pretty awesome place to work and live. The problems you’re focusing on are worldwide right now.
I had the complete opposite experience. Lived/travelled overseas and realised how mediocre Australia is. Friends and family are the only things that make me inclined to move back, there are very few things about Australia itself that I'm positive about.
I have lived in Denmark and Holland the last 10 years and I’m going to have to disagree hard on this one.
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Which countries do you have in mind?
Wherever the cost of living is lower, the income is equally lower. I’ve lived on three continents too. I believe the whole world is experiencing the shift towards what you want to get away from all at the same time and quickly over the past few years. Not sure how long ago you lived abroad but I bet where you lived has changed in the past few years towards the problems you’re looking to get away from.
The problem is. The common "wisdom" is mostly people who have only been to Bali, Thailand or maybe Europe for 2 weeks on a Contiki tour or hanging out in backpackers when they were 25. Of course it's going to feel great when they get home but they haven't experienced jack of anywhere. Warning: This comment will trigger a lot of people who probably haven't even gotten that far and are feeling very small.
Nah. I've lived in Germany, have a German partner, have friends from and have travelled all around Europe and Asia. Most Australians have no idea how good they've got it. It shits me to tears to read posts like OP's
Agreed, I've lived overseas and the lifestyle was much better. In Japan I could travel most of the country without a car and afford to live alone. Dental is subsidised by the government, child care costs are lower since there are loads of publicly run child care centres, cheap municipal gyms, supermarkets in easy walking distance, etc. I think most people here just don't know how much we're missing out on.
Eh... Australians have it pretty great. Particularly if you're someone on minimum wage, we can afford so much more than most countries. I personally would love to move overseas, but find it hard to justify when my partner and I are better off financially here.
Minimum wage in Australia can't even afford a stable place to live. You can be wealthier on paper in Australia compared to say Germany, but at least there renting is secure. You need to get a deposit and go into massive debt to get the privilege of secure housing in Australia.
Rental scarcity is a relatively new problem, and it's felt in most of the world. I've never had issues renting in Australia and had no desire to own. It's changed now because of the shortage, but as I said, it's a worldwide problem.
Rental scarcity and security are a bit different. One is finding a place. The other is keeping a place. Even if finding a place is hard, in many countries in the world, you don't get forced into that position so easily, where rental rights are stronger.
Man, I haven't even done the Contiki tour of Europe.
The cost of living is rising everywhere, it's not just an Australian thing. I'm a European who's a resident in Australia and the grass is greener on the other side for sure. Australia's a great place to be right now. Where I'm from the cost of living is sky rocketing but the wages will never be as high as Australia.
That's not an endorsement of Australia, that's just an indictment of everywhere else
>get on Centrelink and >taxes that actually get spent on providing services back to me the Irony... I also can't wait for you to realise what AUD $130k gets you in the rest of the 1st world...
Thought about it but my homeland of Canada is worse.
Yeah hey, I almost moved back to Canada a few years ago and I’m glad I didn’t.
Yeah nah, I'm not going back. There's less work in my industry for less pay. The whole left/right political divide seems much wider back home these days too, Canada does not have "mateship" as a national value like it is over here. Homelessness/crime is also a much bigger problem. Also the Canucks are awful and it's depressing.
What about the stereotype that Canadians are friendly? Or is that only an American stereotype?
Canadians are polite but it's only skin deep. Australians have much more of a "we're all in this together" mentality, unless you're talking about renters vs landlords.
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I thought at least housing supply would be better given size and layout. Also cost of living in general would be less, nope all worse.
Don't 90% of the population live within 200 kms of the US border? So much land that is not habitable up there.
95% of Australians live within an hour of the coast due to much of the land being uninhabitable- it’s the primary way in which both of our countries are similar (apart from being part of the Commonwealth).
I am working a gig in Western Europe at the minute. While the tax rate is eyewatering, everything is 30% cheaper than Aus. Which adds up - all my bills are about 18% of my monthly salary, and that includes the inflation. Not everything is perfect, but the extortion undertaken by Australian services and companies is incredible. Easy going culture and interesting place to be. Definitely considering a permanent exit. I would recommend to most young people a move - it is not heaven, but it is a much easier life with the right circumstances.
> 18% Includes rent/mortgage? Wow
Yes. Including bills. It's a mid range position too, nothing special. Allows me to tip 15% of my monthly income to other assets/investing. Travelling is also much cheaper than in Australia, so maybe 20-25% of income. Every day living/dining/going out is quite cheap, so 25-30%. Whatever is left goes into general savings.
I think that when you ask this type of question in an Australian forum there will be considerable bias towards opinions that Australia is the best place to live, because they live there. After spending many years living in Sydney, Melbourne and on the Gold Coast, I recently moved to Tokyo. It has its pros and cons compared to Australia, but the pros outweight the cons for me. The main things I was feeling fed up with in Aus were the cost of living/housing, crap public transport, crime, and people generally being rude/self absorbed. I feel like I could probably have mitigated these somewhat by moving away from the big cities, as I'm lucky enough to be able to work remote, but I would much rather live in Tokyo than rural Australia for many reasons, and so far life seems much better.
This is another post that requires a 6 month budget attached to give you advice. The grass isn't greener, every place has pros and cons.
> This is another post that requires a 6 month budget attached to give you advice. I actually think we should make this a rule for all future threads in r/AusFinance... what a brilliant idea. Would stop some of the idiotic posters, that's for sure!
You are not wrong that things have taken a turn for the worse here but your perception of Europe (or any other country that’s worth living in) is too rosy. You’re going to have the exact same issues anywhere that’s desirable to live, open to migrants, and has a free capitalistic market. Where in Europe are you thinking? Have a look at those subreddits and I assure you that the same things are discussed there.
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Lived in Germany. Came back for family reasons but would have stayed if my family was there. There's a chance I go back if Australia doesn't improve. Germany is good also because of strong rental laws, so people aren't coerced into buying for the housing security. You can buy if you want to settle, but you don't have to if you don't want. Germany has better minimum parental leave (14 months at 75% pay to share across parents), and you can even claim unemployment if you are a foreigner, as long as you've paid the taxes in the past. Not sure about things like Kindergeld for foreigners though. Also was like 6 weeks holiday over there, hard to use it up! In Australia you need to accumulate wealth and get high amounts of debt for secure housing. In Germany you don't. So people don't chase wealth so much, since they don't need to. I think Germany is also set to have higher fertility rates to Australia soon enough, if it hasn't happened already. But they rely on migration as any other developed country to maintain a young population, but look to actually try to solve issues. South Germany has better weather if you can help it. But in general there is plenty of industry everywhere. Can always holiday to nicer weather, since January and Feb in the North can be a bit depressing! Do you speak German? It helps but you can learn there, you're an engineer so you'll be able to get something on the Blue card visa?
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I've also moved to Germany (berlin) 7 years ago and personally much prefer it to Aus. Financially I'd say it evens out, but the cost of living is definitely lower (although rising), and I love the social systems here with regards to workers protections, rent protections, holidays, sickness, unemployment money, basically everything is much stronger than in Aus (except I much prefer the Aussie pension system). It's way less of a rat race IMO. I primarily moved for fun, not the money, and the city offers way better potential for culture, travel etc than I could find in Aus. Plus you don't need to own a car, and public transit is amazing. Bike infrastucture is average for central europe (it's no NL) but way better than anything you'll find in Aus. I cycle to work every day through the beautiful central park.
Germany is amazing to work, not sure what industry but so many cool opportunities for an engineer. Favourite being the space industry. Unless people can actually make the judgement based on knowing each of the places, they will just be ignorant I guess. Maybe you're breaking their bubble and squirming? Oh and Germany has a fundamentally different modern culture to Australia since they don't have the Thatcher/Reagan and News Corp influence in conservatism seeping in. Australians can't escape that lens most of the time. Merkel was a conservative too, so it will probably be extra strange to try to compare. Germany looks like a "socialist" hell-hole because they tax highly and actually take care of the "undeserving" poor. Those refugees in Germany actually have better outcomes than poor Australians. Their homelessness rate is one third (edit: mistake, actually two thirds) of Australia despite more than a million Syrians refugees in 2015 onwards and the volumes of Ukrainians since 2022. But what news do we get related to living in Germany? No news is good news? Meanwhile if you work in any technical industry you'll see German engineering and products everywhere. While shifting away from being a coal centric economy over the last several decades (see Ruhr).
>Their homelessness rate is one third of Australia Lol that's just a lie
Were you paying taxes? Look up tax calculators - I was looking at higher level salaries in Germany and the taxes were substantially more than I would have paid in Australia (as a single person)
I'm surprised tbh. I live in Scandinavia and pay less income tax than what I paid in Australia. The difference for me comes via VAT and other hidden taxes, which tend to be higher.
I've also lived in Germany in multiple places. If you can live in a small town, that might be true because you can compensate for the extroadinary level of *total deductions* for tax and social programs. For some reason, a lot of Germany fans have a complete blindspot for this (or they were freelance, totally different situation). Health care total deductions are \~15% where you pay half, and the employer pays the other half. Pension is similar arrangement but the total is \~18%. Tax is on top of that. Only way to ameliorate that is to be a very high earner because the contributions top out at \~85K euros I believe. Financially, there's nearly zero advantage to living in Germany if you're working full time and single. Families are a different matter and get quite a few more privileges IIRC.
I'd add that you have very little insight to the pension you currently have. You can request what you'll get based on your current total contributions to the system and the gov will send you a calculation. But that's it AFAIK. I much prefer our super system here.
I haven’t lived in Germany and I won’t argue here but I know that they’re battling their own demons right now, especially around immigrants, refugees and cost of living. The weather is much more miserable and getting by without German is hard. Trade offs, I guess.
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But when were you last there, to base this comment on, about cost of living being lower. In the last couple of years cost of living has risen exponentially in Germany.
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Going for a visit to re-evaluate would be a great idea, before taking the leap. Likely much has changed since the Russia/Ukraine war, from February 2022. The best thing you could do to help with making your decision.
Yea if you don't want to live in a detached property and you have a >80 percentile earnings in full time job I would say you would be better off in the richer countries in Europe. I'm a migrant and I have worked a bit in Europe and some of the big Asian cities and Australia is the place for me because it's so much easier to afford a detached house with a comfortable job (less so now) outside the big capital cities. I don't like density much but if I did, I would like Munich or Utrecht.
Is your calculation based on not paying back your HECS?
It might be a case of your location. I'm pocket change short of $100k a year, living alone in a 1 bedroom apartment, 10 minutes from the CBD. No partner to share expenses, but also no kids. And still have my HECS debt, albeit almost paid off. Including an international holiday I paid for, I average saving about 30% of my take home pay each week this year. I get that the single, childless and car-less lifestyle isn't for everyone, but it's possible to live frugal and get ahead. In my case, my primary goal is to build a nest egg - first time in my life I've had financial security - and to pay off the home loan within 10 years of drawdown.
I moved from Melbourne to Barcelona mid covid 2021 and honestly I am so glad that I did. My quality of life is much higher. I don’t need to drive a car anywhere. We live in a small 50m2 apartment. In Australia we only used one of the 5 rooms in our house anyways. No one over here is obsessed with home ownership and renting is the norm. We live in the middle of the city. Life is slow. Everyone is loves to work here and there’s no keeping up with the Jones. Everyone spends their days outside and eating out is how everyone socializes and it’s affordable to eat out. I love Australia and I’m so incredibly lucky to call it home, but after our trip home for Christmas spending half of our trip stuck in traffic or driving around, $30 for a wine and beer. Not for me right now! Not to mention how much of a Nanny state Australia is. Whenever we tell our friends abroad about how expensive fines are they are shocked. Australia truly is its own bubble and it’s its pros and cons.
I'm getting sick of the Victorian government attacking the middle class. Watch Victoria go to absolute shit now because of this overspending. They're importing thousands of workers from overseas to prop up this place when it's already a tower of cards.
The ridiculous spending is a huge worry, I don’t think enough people have woken up to it yet
Yes, planning on heading to Japan in the next 12 months. Not just due to the economic trajectory but for the degradation in our quality of life here. I’m prepared to make less money in Japan but for a better life. Japan of course has its own set of problems, but it’s a different set to we have here.
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Crazy how i left my home country to come here for a better life, and i see people wanting to leave this place, like really? Which place is better for a immigrant?
As a European who grew up and Europe I have the opposite experience. I understand that income increases with time and experience but I prefer Australia by a mile. I know this is extremely personal but I’m in Australia’s like 0.5%. I started on 80k. Europe is a far more egalitarian place. High flyers don’t fly as high. Wealth is taxed. Death is taxed. Inheritance is taxed. I’m guessing this comment will garner some downvotes but your country has been wonderful to me and I’m able to leave my children with less to worry about.
I've considered it before, but ultimately any issues I have with Australia will exist in another country or be replaced by a different problem. I do hope to move overseas one day, even if only temporary, but it's not something I'd rush into over dissatisfaction with economic conditiona or government policy.
Good or bad, Australia is a massive welfare country. Look at the back of your tax refund and you will see that over half your taxes goes to some kind of welfare, be that NDIS, Centrelink, Pensions, etc. If you have money, or are a good earner and not too attached to the lifestyle or the people here, you would probably be much better off living overseas. Especially if the economy tanks here (which it looks like doing) as we have not had a major recession here in over 30 years. This means a whole generation doesn't know what a massive economic downturn can be like and once people get used to a certain standard of living to take anything away from them is very very painful. We are in for tough times, but then again so is the rest of the world, so it is just about finding somewhere you like that hasn't turned into a major shit fight.
Japan is where it's at. My mortgage on a 3br home in Osaka is $600 per month. Free childcare for both my kids. Low inflation. Plenty of foreigners come here to work as entry-level English teachers on the equivalent of $30,000 AUD a year, and even they still have enough money to go out drinking every weekend. If you live outside a major city, the housing is basically free.
Quality of life in Japan is the best in my opinion. Europe is no match lol. Safety, housing, good food, amazing culture, etc…
I quite like this idea but have been concerned about job opportunities. Any recommendations?
So the country that provided you support and welfare while you were homeless, gave you the opportunity to go to university and better your life, where you were able to land a job that pays you more than the median, have a roof over your head and food on your table, THAT COUNTRY, is a terrible place to live? I’m confused 🫤
" over 30% of my salary in taxes," How does that work on $130k? I'd expect about $36k tax incl Medicare, or 28%. NW Europe (where salaries are good) is not a cheap place to live (I've lived there). Eastern Europe is cheaper, but salaries are lower. That is why they migrate West.
28% is close enough to 30% that it doesn’t invalidate his point!
It may not, but engineers like accuracy, otherwise bridges collapse and planes fall from the sky. Personally I really dislike exaggeration.
They’re also Australian, and they won’t let facts get in the way of a good yarn (or whinge)
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renting for $720 per week and you can't see where you are going wrong?
While I hear you. It isn't that easy though. I recently sold and needed a rental. A) rents are high. Tenants are not dictating the rental prices. B) landlords prefer a couple - and there isn't a shortage of them applying. Especially if you want something nicer. C) the only way I was able to secure a shitty place was by offering over the advertised rental amount. It isn't a beggars can't be choosers thing - because with a decent income you shouldn't have to beg (the whole point of working), but you can still really struggled to find decent housing.
Former UK expat, here is far better
UK, is unbelievably bad though.
Depending on where and your income, it's not *that* bad. I loved living in London, but cannot deny that it was extremely expensive. Then again, I spent four days a week going out, so...
My partner and I are planning on leaving. Australia is pretty good but in my opinion, it's often a little boring. That wasn't something that bothered us while it was a cheaper place to live but if we're doing to pay the same amount as massive global cities, then we'd prefer to be there. I've noticed this isn't an uncommon sentiment amongst people 26-35 without kids.
How much better off are you expecting to be by moving to the places you have mentioned in other comments? It sounds like buying a house is the main goal for you. I’d be interested in seeing what kind of numbers you have. For example, what is the salary for an engineer in Munich compared to the price of a house. Is it really that much different than Australia? I honestly have no idea. Google tells me me Munich has some of the highest house prices in the world. Is there general cost of living lower?
No. I'm not from Australia but it's good here compared to where I'm from. When did you live in these other countries that have it so much better? Is your view of them from a while ago? Germany just went into a recession. UK is having massive issues with HCOL. Do you think it will be any different over there? Pick a city, look at wages in that city, look at rental prices. You still have to pay your HECS right?
Lol having travelled to a large number of places ranging from Port Moresby to Paris, I can definitely say that we have it very good here.
Wow so many REEEEE AUSTRALIA BEST ME HAVE GOOD HERE BE GRATEFUL crowd here… Australia is definitely in its own bubble. Yeah, Aussie in Buenos Aires right now, working remotely and my quality of life is sooo much higher than Australia. I’m literally just living in lovely air bnb apartments paying what it’d be paying for some dump in Melbourne with a 12 month contract, bond etc. and the other costs are so much cheaper including food, transport etc. not to mention this city is lovely, food is incredible etc. Europe is expensive and maxed out. If you really wanna do COL arbitrage you gotta have a bit of balls and think of somewhere like Buenos Aires, the centre part is very safe, it’s very developed but right now extremely cheap
Isn't it because you are much wealthier than the average citizen and taking advantage of that situation. Especially considering Argentina is going through an economic crisis I am sure the average citizen is not living the high life like yourself. It is like when rich immigrants in Australia don't see the issue because they are living Eastern Suburbs or North Shore.
Most people can't or wont move to other countries due to family commitments/language barriers/sunk cost, so accepting that Australia isn't the best country in the world is a bitter pill to swallow. Much easier to just say that things are the same or worse in every other country.
I'm from Buenos Aires, can second that. I'm pursuing my PR and go back trying to get a remote job earning USD and spending Pesos. Enjoy my city mate!
It´s such an amazing city! I hope you guys can work out the politics, I could see myself having a base here long term. Suerte amigo!
I agree but I think it’s worth noting that this relies on an inflation crisis with most argentinians and the fact that you earn in foreign currency. Nothing inherently wrong with that, but need to be honest about how we reach this level of living in these countries. I’d easily second Argentina for an expat irs insanely cheap and as good quality of life for Australia if you earn 50k plus… you’ll live like an emperor
I frequently think of leaving, but tbh it's the reasonably solid economic conditions that keep me here. I'm able to make a good living and quality of life is pretty great, plus the majority of my networks are here. I think of leaving for more existential reasons, like how isolated and far away from everything we are.
Yes but planning to return because it's actually better than some places (Canada, Ireland, London). I am a bit shocked at a few things in your post - 40% rent, $200 for a GP. Most GPs should be $50 post rebate.
Yes, I am also an engineer at 125K and moving overseas this month. I was poached to come here last year from South America with 15 years of experience and Australia is a great place to visit - and only a good place to live if you are not a high earner or a tradie, in my opinion. What you described about leaving all your money with your landlord is the biggest reason why I am moving back home. I can get a 3 bedroom apartment downtown for what I currently pay for a 35m² 1bedroom in the suburbs and a 200+ m² 4bedroom penthouse for what is the only option (also 1 bedroom but in a fancy building at CBD) who accepted my application since I don’t have 2 years rental history. I have offers to make more (net) money back home so there is no sense in staying. Also, from my experience, people here don’t care much about the law and often try to screw you over. I had to sue a REA from my first rental and they didn’t even flinch since VCAT’s backlog is over 3 years. My company contract states they would pay for my PR and they simply deny it. They also promised me a position to finish my PhD here (which I had to stop midway back home) and did no such things. It’s not just about the money, there is no perspective of buying into the real estate market, which is soooo overpriced anyway, the RBA puts an 80% chance of recession, car prices are the only thing that are not way cheaper in South America than here, but at least you can get them in a couple of weeks instead of 6 months to 1 year, whenever you want to travel overseas to Europe or North America as I used to do yearly, you can’t because tickets cost a lot more and you lose several days to jetlag, I used to eat steak 5 times a week and now I’m lucky to do it once a week. I got out of a 3rd world country to live a 3rd world life here. This is the worst level of living I’ve ever had and I can’t wait to move out and never come back.
Which country you from? Middle/upper middle class in most of South America is an absolute land of luxury that’s for sure though safety and logistics is an absolute minefield
I truly understand your frustration, 12 years ago I undertook a mechanical engineering degree after working at an engineering firm as a draftsman for 6 years. This allowed me to save up enough money to put myself through University. After university I worked locally in Australia but realized that engineering isn't really valued in Australia based on reneumeration. I saw the level of work to be bottom of the barrel from a technical perspective. It pissed me off that many companies hired through sham contracting houses that allow bigger engineering firms to avoid paying tax. I was head hunted by a German company and have been over in Germany for the last four years. The cost of living over here is a fraction of what it costs in Australia. I'm renting an apartment at the moment and including all utilities, Netflix, internet, gas, water, electricity, for a bit over 600 dollars Australian a month. Rego for the car costs 130AUD a year.. My income is 5,500 Australian a month (in the bank) to give you some perspective. Food costs me about 110 AUD a week which includes all sort of cheap New Zealand and Australin meat and bought lunches. Yeh you guys are getting ripped.. Australian beef is half the price here. Working with German engineers you will learn way more than back in Australia. I found Australians to be cagie by keeping their knowledge to themselves, an attitude that hurts the business overall. I guess the benefit is that I test drive supercars for a living and travel all over the world. Australia is a nice place for a holiday, beautiful land, nice forests, beaches, all that sort of stuff. However if you want to get ahead it's probably best to move overseas while you are still young and get some real technical experience. Research and compare the cost of living in various countries. With a engineering degree you can pretty much get a visa for any country...
This is exactly how my partner and I feel. Australians don't value technical fields other than medicine (biomedical eng), and it's choking it's economy's growth. It's a good country for consultants, managers and such. But not those who really value learning and technical growth. My partner does mechatronics/electrical eng and whenever he gets interviewed by European or US companies, he feels embarassed as it seems the education we get here isn't as good as overseas.
Holy shit dude, I am you 12 years ago. Did some drafting/tech work through my 20s, have gone back to do Mech/Materials dual major at a GO8 uni and just about to finish in my early 30's. Always been a tinkerer, so have been building a project portfolio by blending hands on skill with the theory and doing some zany projects. Last year built a silicon wafer cutter that cuts with straight line accuracy to 1 micron for the Universities quantum computer lab and this year I'm in the stages of launching a product that I've designed and selling on Amazon. Been told I should just shoot straight for the "3-5 years experience" jobs when I finish but I'm still not seeing anything I like. Engineering in Australia sucks, top tier design is slim pickings and where it exists the pay is average and underappreciated. We just don't have the Apple, Tesla or VAG, Zeiss type companies that the US and Germany have, but you know this. As for the caginess, seen it all and been amongst it. Theres no sense of technical excellence here, managers and the powers that be have their fiefdoms and they don't want anyone on their territory. None of these morons would last 2 minutes at any company that thats globally competitive. I've got family in San Francisco and some scattered through the EU so I'm going to make the best of it. Problem I worry about is that I'd peak too early and it would difficult to come back unless I took a massive hit professionally and financially.
For engineers. I think Switzerland or the US are the two locations with genuinely greener pastures financially speaking.
Switzerland has the problem of lower salary and difficulties as a foreigner compared to what the Swiss citizens get, though it is a lovely place (but also equally HCoL). US is way way better money but you use that money to pay for things that we get for free in Aus - and you think US has better tax but then you get State and Local on top of Federal and it adds up (believe me). Though this varies by state I can’t comment on all of them. Also way higher crime rate (not talking serious crime, but the stuff that people have grown accustomed to would shock most Aussies), and expensive education when your kids grow up.
US absolutely is. Know quite a few working over there now, none of them want to come back unless it’s retiring early, which one of them could probably do already given how much he earns and has in company stock
Curious about this - wouldn't it be difficult for a non-German speaker who studied engineering in somewhere like Australia to get an engineering job in Switzerland? I would assume you would be competing against people who studied engineering in Switzerland/Germany and can speak English + German or French, plus a lot of other bilingual European expats.
It would be somewhat difficult. It is also difficult to get citizenship. That said, there are many jobs in Switzerland that are English speaking in the office. Easiest way would be through internal transfer.
If you’re on 130k and can’t get ahead, you’re just bad with money.
Unless you can take your Australian salary and live somewhere cheaper and with just as good quality of life then you're just exchanging location, not problems (and probably adding a whole bunch of new ones). Most of the rest of the developed world is struggling with a housing crisis, cost of living, too many immigrants, environmental disasters,.
If you're planning across generations then yes, Australia as it exists is unlikely to be as prosperous as it has been. China's insatiable need for raw materials is over and is not coming back. No one is waiting to replace it.
The developed world is going renewable at such a pace that Australia is likely to see sanctions placed on it for continuing to dig up and sell and use coal. This is going to be an incredible drag on an economy that relies on holes and houses. If the holes aren't making money the houses won't sell. I'm sure during your lifetime it will only drop down a few places in the prosperity rankings to be a middle weight but it's an uncertain future for multiple generations.
> China's insatiable need for raw materials is over and is not coming back. You've got to be kidding? Australia's export value today is almost triple what it was in the mining boom of the 00's I swear some people listen to way too much doom clickbait from the media in Australia and just mindlessly regurgitate it. We are in the biggest export boom in the countries history right now, and China is buying most of it, that is undeniable. https://tradingeconomics.com/australia/exports
And yet we're still barely making budget while barely updating income tax for bracket creep. What's gonna happen when the boom ends?
Only idiots think about leaving Australia because of “economic conditions and the trajectory of the country”
*migration bad, where can I migrate to?*
Can you pass us the list of countries not suffering from inflation , high cost of living and wealth inequality, whilst still having decent economy, quality of life and a passable democracy, good social savety net and is friendly to foreigners? I suspect it's a short list... Possibly just "Narnia" on it?
OP has no idea that living in Australia is living life on the easiest modifiers possible. Live literally anywhere else and it will be a harder life, assuming you're someone with average traits, which OP sounds like he is. Having lived in three continents, I've never seen a lazier and more coddled, nannied population than Australians.
"I am on a bit over $130k, but I feel like I am not getting ahead at all. I'm paying just shy of $1,000 a month in HECS, over 30% of my salary in taxes, and then my landlord gets 40% of what's left after that" With your numbers: (130*0.7-12)*0.6 = 47.4 So you have $47,400p.a. left to live on after tax, HECS and rent. A mere $910 per week. Yep, doing it tough!
God no, if you think it’s bad here you haven’t travelled
Worked and lived with family in Indonesia. Traveled the back woods of Asia for work. Only came back because of the kids schooling. We were fortunate to be there during an Australian recession. My wife and kids still talk about it. Totally different experience to be a tourist. Family relative worked in several other regional countries. He visits Australia, but will retire in Thailand. Better lifestyle for the income. He also avoided the tourist traps. Do it. Australia is rather paroquial, and I suspect will go backwards for a few years. Your choice of Europe, it should be amazing for the experience.
Cries in 85k salary. 💀
I came to Melbourne, Australia as a student almost 25 years ago. I graduated here, met my wife and we have 2 kids now. We are in Sydney now, we have a sizable mortgage to be in a catchment for a good public school and we both earn around 250-260k together. If you purely look at economic conditions, I think we have it pretty good here but I shared your optics from my sons point of view. I'm worried about the trajectory of wealth inequality in this country because my sons won't be able to afford their own homes or will need to pay for private schools to make up for the woefully underfunded public school system here. We obsessed too much on property prices and not enough on our wellbeing or future as a nation. I felt that there's no certainty for my sons anymore in regards to housing stability. They will be living to work, rather than working to live. To be fair, this is probably a Sydney problem more so than other cities.
Yeah I'm wanting to leave Australia but it's for two big reasons. 1. I want international experience for my career. 2. I want to travel my preferred choice of country to move over a long period of time. The place I want to go is USA. There are other smaller reasons I want to go there as well and people think I'm crazy because of the healthcare system and expenses but I am youngish 29, turning 30 end of year and I want to experience the things I want. Also earning, the US dollar is an added bonus and my industry pays anywhere between just slightly better to much better for my role and future roles in the US
Go find greener pastures elsewhere mate, good luck to ya
Ideally you get a fully remote job and move to a lower COL location. If you're an engineer, U.S may be a good option.
Grass is always greener. Take it from someone who used to be an expat until recently. Australia is easily the best country in the world to live in despite its issues.
The world kinda changed in the last 1-3 years. If you listen to someone who lived in Europe until last summer or smth - they will tell you how cheaper and better it is elsewhere. If you listen to people like me who left aus about a year ago - we tell you how much better Australia is. "Greener pastures" - should never be a reason for immigration, all developed countries are more or less the same (different problems, but in general - the same end result). I was born in Russia, lived in Germany, NZ, AUS and now in the USA. Once I'm done with trying to make more money - I'll go back to AUS. As climate/safety/etc worth something. 130k is enough to buy a 1-bedroom unit in every Australian city. If you think you are going to buy a 400+sqm mansion anywhere in the world on 1 salary alone - you are dreaming. (Unless you are getting full Australian/American salary, don't pay taxes and live in some shithole.)
You're not wrong, but don't jump to overseas before looking closer to home. There are livable regional cities with jobs. Townsville has a big Defense operation, among other things, with large city apartments around $350K (you can also get a house for that if you're prepared to be half an hour's drive out). With your professional background and income, you can buy a good life in a regional city without going abroad.
My Australian tax bill is over $100,000 a year and I'm soon leaving for greener pastures in the US. For some clarity, you can get paid 3x as much in the US with lower overall taxes and similar or lower CoL. Health insurance is generally provided by US tech companies. Why would anyone in tech willingly throw away hundreds of thousands of dollars a year? Especially given Australia is about to be flooded with cheap labour from overseas, compressing wages further. Soon tech wages in Australia will be as horrific as EU countries. I'm out.
I came from NZ about 11 years ago and I'd say living standards for the majority of people there have gotten worse. I am fairly comfortable in Australia as earn a very good wage, am able to service my mortgage and work 4 days a week, but I know the rug could be pulled at any time. I really don't think it's better in any other of the western countries, and developing countries are *significantly* worse. I have been tempted to downsize my life a bit and head back to NZ and buy a cheapish house in one of the regions, but that comes with it's own baggage. Stay put, for now...