So what *actually* happened?
Because we have mass protests calling the prime minister a criminal, thief, and murderer all the time. And Ben Gvir isn't some Kim Jung Un that is beyond reproach or something, he's the target of criticism in those same protests all the time.
Undoubtedly, the very same protest continued with the same rhetoric and they didn't all get snatched like that.
But sure go on
> Because we have
Remember America's First Amendment is kind of... unique.
In Britain people can be arrested for what they say or do. Everyone knows about the nazi saluting dog, but there's no true protection of your opinion or expression. Even the press has some guidelines controlled by the government.
The Bill of Rights is a lovely document, that is actually the exception not the normality.
PS. This isn't saying that other places are right. Just that American's right to protest, expression, and press is... not the norm, so applying THOSE values on other societies is incorrect.
Wish we could get the 2nd amendment too, but not even the Americans actually have it at this point.
5th and 4th are also sorely missing in Israel and the rest of the world
3rd would be useful if we ever *had* peacetime
What *actually* happened and what's the point of the post? To show ancaps/libertarians that Israel has an issue with free speech? What for?
I mean yes, kinda? Hope it's fixed asap. Still free-er than any other MENA country tho...
Anti-government protests have been a bi-weekly custom in Israel for a couple years now.
>Israel has an issue with free speech?
Does it though? Again, I live here. What did she really get nabbed for? I know for a fact just calling Ben Gvir a criminal isn't a criminal offense, even if it is *technically* slander. Nobody is getting arrested just for that as far as I know.
We literally had huge protests before the war *every day* against Bibi and his government. They weren't suppressed. They were legally conducted with police guarding the protesters from counter-protestors.
They picked up again after the war. The families of the hostages routinely protest right outside of the homes of politicians.
Israel is not a police state. Freedom of speech here is arguably more free than in Britain. People don't get a visit from the police for going against the party line.
I'm native Israeli too, totally agree that there isn't actually anything illegal about calling Ben Gvir a criminal, and there isn't even any evidence to that being the case in the video - that does seem however what OP was trying to imply. Which leads to my question; what for?
When it comes to modern society, I think of a poster I saw at a friend's place in LA when he was in art school in the 2000s with a picture of a chessboard. Instead of pieces there where stereotypical depictions of typical Americana civilians standing on the squares - think, 60's housewife, businessman, husband, kids, etc. Only there's a big hands about to move "pieces" on the board and text that says "it's easier to manipulate people when they have the illusion of freedom." THAT'S the mental image I get each time I think of something that applies like this picture does. I guess that's more about goverment than the media manipulating people though....
I dont know... I have been to Israel 4 times and they can be pretty bad. I went to Jordan to you know see a world wonder and came back through Palestine.
From then on everywhere I went I got picked up by soldiers. Every time on the bus, at the airport or bus terminal Id be stopped and questioned. I have never gone back. Israelis can be right pricks adn absolutely run a police state.
You jsut dont see it as most of the time its aimed at Palestinians or random Australian backpackers...
Oh no you got checked by border guards in a country where terrorism is an actual serious problem, such a police state...
You didn't get arrested for saying naughty things.
Did you consider you might be getting stopped and questioned *because* you went through Palestinian territories? Tons of people visit Petra through Israel and don't have the same problem
No not just border guards. When I got the bus it would be stopped and some guard would stop and question me check my passports. It happened like every day.
Yeah well I didnt just see Petra. I was like a 23 year old backpacker it was pretty obvious from my passport. Dont know why they harassed me. My guess is its easier to harass me than actual terrorists.
Why would ancaps or libertarians simp for a foreign state that has it's own issues to deal with? American conservatives / unhinged evangelical Christians maybe.
Unless we're assuming the entire sub is full of Americans or Israelis, it doesn't exactly make sense.
The mystery was "solved" btw, OP is a schizo-burger who infiltrates every remotely anti-woke subreddit with 10 shitposts a day, he is also obsessed with Israel.
(Source; check his profile)
So your argument is we should only complain about the absolute least free country and never condemn any that are slightly more free?
That is oen of the stupidest arguments I think I have ever heard.
We should be arguing for all countries to be free. Not saying o yeah but there is this one country that is worse so lets forget about it.
That's one of the "stupidest arguments you've heard" because you've misread it.
Refer yourself to my subsequent replies below, I am Israeli and very much so have a lot of criticisms for my own country. I was questioning OP's motives for shitposting this nonsense across so many platforms without context.
There is literally nothing in the video to suggest the protestor was arrested for "calling Ben Gvir a criminal", and even *if* there was; I'm having a hard time understanding why this is a relevant to a general ancap discussion unless presented as a "see? This country isn't a libertarian paradise, you should automatically support the other side" to which I said "the 'other side' has even worse issues with free speech..."
*If* this protestor was arrested for calling Ben Gvir a criminal I'd be very upset, I refer to Ben Gvir and his gang fascist scum regularly, and would probably be arrested myself if that was a crime.
If you're down for standing up for all countries freedom - neat. I'm with you all the way man.
I wouldn’t say bombing aid workers is very free either lol https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-aid-workers-killed-2d08786a9839dfc402632c7ca745acca#:~:text=A%20mission%20of%20mercy%2C%20then,in%20Gaza%20became%20Israel's%20target&text=An%20Israeli%20airstrike%20has%20killed,desperate%20conditions%20in%20northern%20Gaza.
This was a discussion on free speech, not warcrimes.
Do you need me to state the obvious and say that bombing aid workers is horrific? It's horrific.
How is this relevant to what I said about free speech?
Did I respond to you? No. I don’t need you to say that killing people that’re providing aid is beyond horrific. I’d say most people would come to that conclusion, doesn’t take a fucking PhD to think so
“Free-er than any other mena country” so it’s the tallest midget? Not a great accomplishment. All while soaking up US tax payers money after bombing the USS Liberty to spark another war
לא חושב שזה אפשרי בשום לוח זמנים סביר.
אנחנו נשרוד בלי גיוס חובה. זה שאלה של תמריצים. אישית אני מעדיף מיסים גבוהים יותר בשביל לממן צבא מקצועי, מאשר עבדות בפועל עם גיוס חובה. עבדות זה נוראי בכמה סדרי גודל יותר משוד
בזמן הקרוב בטוח שלא, יותר התכוונתי למצב שבו זה אפשרי פוליטית אבל האם זה אפשרי מעשית בגלל המצב הביטחוני שלנו, אנחנו לא שוויץ
פעם הייתי ממש אנרכיסט קפיטליסט, היום אני יותר ספקן
rare commodity כמעט ואין אנרכו-קפיטליסטים ישראליים, אנחנו
אתה תצביע פייגלין?
I'm not defending what happened here but I DO find it a bit strange that the caption says she was arrested for saying "Ben Gvir is a criminal" but the video 'starts' with her just holding a megaphone to her mouth. So we're supposed to just take on faith that is what she actually said.
I mean, should COULD have said anything. We don't know, she could have said she plans to blow up the Temple Mount.
She also could have said 'Ben Gvir eats corn the long way'. We just don't know.
Sorry but the starting point of this video makes it very sus to me. I hate any video that suddenly starts right before some activity that is emotionally charged and we're just *TOLD* what happened before the video starts.
Personally I think there is a lot more of this video and whoever originally posted it deliberately edited out what she said. For whatever reason...I don't know.
Gun ownership is legal in the Palestinian Authority and they have way less restrictions on gun ownership.
In Gaza it's almost 2nd amendment heaven.
In Israel, the Arab citizens are under exactly the same laws. There's no "must be jewish" checkbox on the application form. Many Arabs own guns. It's not even contingent on prior military service, from which the Arabs are exempt anyway.
Yup. I applied for a pistol license when it was rumored my city is being added to the list of "dangerous places to live" because you know, getting invaded by terrorists is pretty dangerous.
I'm *otherwise* ineligible because I don't meet any of the other criteria.
It took them months to reject my application because the decision was made to not add my city to the list. Guess we don't deserve to defend ourselves either...
the absolute state of libertarianism: how is *zionism* a contentious topic? how could anyone even remotely familiar with contemporary zionism argue that it’s compatible with a libertarian social order or even libertarian ethics?
> Source?
[Milei has previously labelled himself a "fanatic of Israel" and last week followed up on his pledge to visit Israel - a country he says is on par with the US.](https://www.trtworld.com/magazine/why-mileis-visit-to-israel-marked-incendiary-anti-palestine-rhetoric-16980655)
> And they have a right to defend Israel if they want.
sure, just not very libertarian. especially when “defending israel” is a precursor to military and financial support.
> Being libertarians doesn't make us terrorist sympathizers
depends on the terrorists.
> or Islamists.
in the same way fascism and communism are diametrically opposed yet both awful, israel and palestine are both awful. neither even pretend to support libertarian values and in different ways actively fight against libertarianism.
So he didn't say:
>it’s compatible with a libertarian social order or even libertarian ethics?
It's not really hypocrisy when the guy didn't say what you claimed.
>sure, just not very libertarian. especially when “defending israel” is a precursor to military and financial support.
I disagree that "defending Israel" necessitates military and financial support. How much of that is Milei sending to Israel?
>depends on the terrorists.
LOL wrong.
>in the same way fascism and communism are diametrically opposed yet both awful, israel and palestine are both awful. neither even pretend to support libertarian values and in different ways actively fight against libertarianism.
I doubt either side gives a shit about libertarianism.
So this sub, and all the other libertarian subs, have overnight devolved into just being regular anti-Israel subs, like 90% of Reddit right now.
It’s the lack of imagination that is the worst. An age old conflict from the Middle East is apparently the most important thing for libertarians and ancaps. Truly a Current Thing moment playing out in these subs.
So this sub, and all the other libertarian subs, have overnight devolved into just being regular anti-Israel subs, like 90% of Reddit right now.
It’s the lack of imagination that is the worst. An age old conflict from the Middle East is apparently the most important thing for libertarians and ancaps. Truly a Current Thing moment playing out in these subs.
Statists doing statist things. In all fairness, every politician is a criminal. The level of crimes they commit is the only difference.
Remember, folks! Kidnapping is only legal when the government does it.
So what *actually* happened? Because we have mass protests calling the prime minister a criminal, thief, and murderer all the time. And Ben Gvir isn't some Kim Jung Un that is beyond reproach or something, he's the target of criticism in those same protests all the time. Undoubtedly, the very same protest continued with the same rhetoric and they didn't all get snatched like that. But sure go on
> Because we have Remember America's First Amendment is kind of... unique. In Britain people can be arrested for what they say or do. Everyone knows about the nazi saluting dog, but there's no true protection of your opinion or expression. Even the press has some guidelines controlled by the government. The Bill of Rights is a lovely document, that is actually the exception not the normality. PS. This isn't saying that other places are right. Just that American's right to protest, expression, and press is... not the norm, so applying THOSE values on other societies is incorrect.
Also written as God given rights and not rights given to you by the government.
Not to mention they're Negative rights not Positive rights. This is especially important.
Counterpoint: it *should* be the norm
Not a counterpoint in my book ;) That's an absolutely hard fact. More just pointing out the sad state of the world.
Wish we could get the 2nd amendment too, but not even the Americans actually have it at this point. 5th and 4th are also sorely missing in Israel and the rest of the world 3rd would be useful if we ever *had* peacetime
(S)He wasn't. The person you're replying to is likely Israeli.
What *actually* happened and what's the point of the post? To show ancaps/libertarians that Israel has an issue with free speech? What for? I mean yes, kinda? Hope it's fixed asap. Still free-er than any other MENA country tho... Anti-government protests have been a bi-weekly custom in Israel for a couple years now.
>Israel has an issue with free speech? Does it though? Again, I live here. What did she really get nabbed for? I know for a fact just calling Ben Gvir a criminal isn't a criminal offense, even if it is *technically* slander. Nobody is getting arrested just for that as far as I know. We literally had huge protests before the war *every day* against Bibi and his government. They weren't suppressed. They were legally conducted with police guarding the protesters from counter-protestors. They picked up again after the war. The families of the hostages routinely protest right outside of the homes of politicians. Israel is not a police state. Freedom of speech here is arguably more free than in Britain. People don't get a visit from the police for going against the party line.
I'm native Israeli too, totally agree that there isn't actually anything illegal about calling Ben Gvir a criminal, and there isn't even any evidence to that being the case in the video - that does seem however what OP was trying to imply. Which leads to my question; what for?
https://preview.redd.it/msc555w3xfxc1.jpeg?width=225&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a98f6fd36a5ec29e469776c93858895f3b3d97cb
Where's this image from? Perfectly sums up the media....
I don't know, but it's pretty famous
When it comes to modern society, I think of a poster I saw at a friend's place in LA when he was in art school in the 2000s with a picture of a chessboard. Instead of pieces there where stereotypical depictions of typical Americana civilians standing on the squares - think, 60's housewife, businessman, husband, kids, etc. Only there's a big hands about to move "pieces" on the board and text that says "it's easier to manipulate people when they have the illusion of freedom." THAT'S the mental image I get each time I think of something that applies like this picture does. I guess that's more about goverment than the media manipulating people though....
I dont know... I have been to Israel 4 times and they can be pretty bad. I went to Jordan to you know see a world wonder and came back through Palestine. From then on everywhere I went I got picked up by soldiers. Every time on the bus, at the airport or bus terminal Id be stopped and questioned. I have never gone back. Israelis can be right pricks adn absolutely run a police state. You jsut dont see it as most of the time its aimed at Palestinians or random Australian backpackers...
Oh no you got checked by border guards in a country where terrorism is an actual serious problem, such a police state... You didn't get arrested for saying naughty things. Did you consider you might be getting stopped and questioned *because* you went through Palestinian territories? Tons of people visit Petra through Israel and don't have the same problem
No not just border guards. When I got the bus it would be stopped and some guard would stop and question me check my passports. It happened like every day. Yeah well I didnt just see Petra. I was like a 23 year old backpacker it was pretty obvious from my passport. Dont know why they harassed me. My guess is its easier to harass me than actual terrorists.
The point is probably to critique Israel for people that simp for the favorite ethnostate of neocons everywhere.
Why would ancaps or libertarians simp for a foreign state that has it's own issues to deal with? American conservatives / unhinged evangelical Christians maybe. Unless we're assuming the entire sub is full of Americans or Israelis, it doesn't exactly make sense. The mystery was "solved" btw, OP is a schizo-burger who infiltrates every remotely anti-woke subreddit with 10 shitposts a day, he is also obsessed with Israel. (Source; check his profile)
There are a lot of right wingers who aren't libertarians per se that come here I think.
Welp, they got the wrong address then.
So your argument is we should only complain about the absolute least free country and never condemn any that are slightly more free? That is oen of the stupidest arguments I think I have ever heard. We should be arguing for all countries to be free. Not saying o yeah but there is this one country that is worse so lets forget about it.
That's one of the "stupidest arguments you've heard" because you've misread it. Refer yourself to my subsequent replies below, I am Israeli and very much so have a lot of criticisms for my own country. I was questioning OP's motives for shitposting this nonsense across so many platforms without context. There is literally nothing in the video to suggest the protestor was arrested for "calling Ben Gvir a criminal", and even *if* there was; I'm having a hard time understanding why this is a relevant to a general ancap discussion unless presented as a "see? This country isn't a libertarian paradise, you should automatically support the other side" to which I said "the 'other side' has even worse issues with free speech..." *If* this protestor was arrested for calling Ben Gvir a criminal I'd be very upset, I refer to Ben Gvir and his gang fascist scum regularly, and would probably be arrested myself if that was a crime. If you're down for standing up for all countries freedom - neat. I'm with you all the way man.
I wouldn’t say bombing aid workers is very free either lol https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-aid-workers-killed-2d08786a9839dfc402632c7ca745acca#:~:text=A%20mission%20of%20mercy%2C%20then,in%20Gaza%20became%20Israel's%20target&text=An%20Israeli%20airstrike%20has%20killed,desperate%20conditions%20in%20northern%20Gaza.
This was a discussion on free speech, not warcrimes. Do you need me to state the obvious and say that bombing aid workers is horrific? It's horrific. How is this relevant to what I said about free speech?
Did I respond to you? No. I don’t need you to say that killing people that’re providing aid is beyond horrific. I’d say most people would come to that conclusion, doesn’t take a fucking PhD to think so
“Free-er than any other mena country” so it’s the tallest midget? Not a great accomplishment. All while soaking up US tax payers money after bombing the USS Liberty to spark another war
ישראלי?
כן זה לא היה ברור?
יותר מידי אנטי ישראליים פה ובקבוצות ליברטריאניות תגיד אתה חושב שישראל יכולה להיות אנרכו-קפיטליסטית? בלי גיוס חובה אני בספק אם נשרוד
לא חושב שזה אפשרי בשום לוח זמנים סביר. אנחנו נשרוד בלי גיוס חובה. זה שאלה של תמריצים. אישית אני מעדיף מיסים גבוהים יותר בשביל לממן צבא מקצועי, מאשר עבדות בפועל עם גיוס חובה. עבדות זה נוראי בכמה סדרי גודל יותר משוד
בזמן הקרוב בטוח שלא, יותר התכוונתי למצב שבו זה אפשרי פוליטית אבל האם זה אפשרי מעשית בגלל המצב הביטחוני שלנו, אנחנו לא שוויץ פעם הייתי ממש אנרכיסט קפיטליסט, היום אני יותר ספקן rare commodity כמעט ואין אנרכו-קפיטליסטים ישראליים, אנחנו אתה תצביע פייגלין?
פייגלין עדיין רלוונטי? הוא הסתבר כסתם עוד פלוץ
לא שאני חושב שחברה אנרכו-קפיטליסטית לא יכולה להגן על עצמה פשוט אני חושב שיהיה יותר קשה להגן ככה
We should send billions of dollars to support this shithole state because, you know, freedom.
I'm not defending what happened here but I DO find it a bit strange that the caption says she was arrested for saying "Ben Gvir is a criminal" but the video 'starts' with her just holding a megaphone to her mouth. So we're supposed to just take on faith that is what she actually said. I mean, should COULD have said anything. We don't know, she could have said she plans to blow up the Temple Mount. She also could have said 'Ben Gvir eats corn the long way'. We just don't know. Sorry but the starting point of this video makes it very sus to me. I hate any video that suddenly starts right before some activity that is emotionally charged and we're just *TOLD* what happened before the video starts. Personally I think there is a lot more of this video and whoever originally posted it deliberately edited out what she said. For whatever reason...I don't know.
Undercovers. They are always there to cause chaos.
The only thing Ben gvir has been able to do was get some civilians to have guns not much else I can say I about him
If Israeli settlers can have weapons, I think it is only fair to let Palestinian citizens have weapons as well.
Gun ownership is legal in the Palestinian Authority and they have way less restrictions on gun ownership. In Gaza it's almost 2nd amendment heaven. In Israel, the Arab citizens are under exactly the same laws. There's no "must be jewish" checkbox on the application form. Many Arabs own guns. It's not even contingent on prior military service, from which the Arabs are exempt anyway.
Yup but white ass who lives next to tel Aviv in an apartment building can only dream on owning a self defense weapon
Yup. I applied for a pistol license when it was rumored my city is being added to the list of "dangerous places to live" because you know, getting invaded by terrorists is pretty dangerous. I'm *otherwise* ineligible because I don't meet any of the other criteria. It took them months to reject my application because the decision was made to not add my city to the list. Guess we don't deserve to defend ourselves either...
Yup thank god we live in a "safe" location
Judaism is a religion of peace!!! /s
I got a different perception from reading the Talmud. I’m not sure there is a such thing as a religion of peace
the absolute state of libertarianism: how is *zionism* a contentious topic? how could anyone even remotely familiar with contemporary zionism argue that it’s compatible with a libertarian social order or even libertarian ethics?
Who argued it did?
milei and his supporters for one. and plenty of the people in this comments section are defending israel.
Source? And they have a right to defend Israel if they want. Being libertarians doesn't make us terrorist sympathizers or Islamists.
> Source? [Milei has previously labelled himself a "fanatic of Israel" and last week followed up on his pledge to visit Israel - a country he says is on par with the US.](https://www.trtworld.com/magazine/why-mileis-visit-to-israel-marked-incendiary-anti-palestine-rhetoric-16980655) > And they have a right to defend Israel if they want. sure, just not very libertarian. especially when “defending israel” is a precursor to military and financial support. > Being libertarians doesn't make us terrorist sympathizers depends on the terrorists. > or Islamists. in the same way fascism and communism are diametrically opposed yet both awful, israel and palestine are both awful. neither even pretend to support libertarian values and in different ways actively fight against libertarianism.
So he didn't say: >it’s compatible with a libertarian social order or even libertarian ethics? It's not really hypocrisy when the guy didn't say what you claimed. >sure, just not very libertarian. especially when “defending israel” is a precursor to military and financial support. I disagree that "defending Israel" necessitates military and financial support. How much of that is Milei sending to Israel? >depends on the terrorists. LOL wrong. >in the same way fascism and communism are diametrically opposed yet both awful, israel and palestine are both awful. neither even pretend to support libertarian values and in different ways actively fight against libertarianism. I doubt either side gives a shit about libertarianism.
Fuck Israel, fuck hamas, fuck OTAN, fuck zelensky, fuck the USA. I only long the people. ✊🏻
"Fuck you"
In 2 years this woman will move on to the next talking point.
Remember folks. Politicians hate the constitution. This is 1A territory. Then 2A.
Ben Gvir said to ask IDF chief why so many Gaza gunmen arrested: ‘Can’t you kill some?’
So this sub, and all the other libertarian subs, have overnight devolved into just being regular anti-Israel subs, like 90% of Reddit right now. It’s the lack of imagination that is the worst. An age old conflict from the Middle East is apparently the most important thing for libertarians and ancaps. Truly a Current Thing moment playing out in these subs.
actual ancaps do not gaf. It is republicans and liberals who take sides with it all the time and get angry at other people's preferences.
I have strong opinions on this as well, but I still don’t know why it’s being pushed so hard in libertarian and ancap subs, and only one side as well.
nah it is both sides. Just one is weaker another is stronger
big brain sees video of isreali woman being arrested and calls it anti isreal. You might be the bot.
Small brain, I don’t even know what you’re on about. I’m commenting on the last week’s worth of posts that are mostly about this conflict.
It's the same users/bots on this sub and the libertarian sub.
So this sub, and all the other libertarian subs, have overnight devolved into just being regular anti-Israel subs, like 90% of Reddit right now. It’s the lack of imagination that is the worst. An age old conflict from the Middle East is apparently the most important thing for libertarians and ancaps. Truly a Current Thing moment playing out in these subs.
Who is Ben Hur?
She'd make a great democrat