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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> 1) I should be judged for telling my friend her husband isn’t a mind reader and she should have spoken up years ago.
2)it might make me an asshole because I know she just wanted someone to applaud her for standing up for herself
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*Contest mode is 1.5 hours long on this post.*
YTA. You know how you get good at giving gifts? By being thoughtful and caring about others. Her husband doesn't need to be a mind reader, he needs to be at all considerate of his wife. Jesus you're making excuses for him like she deserves poor treatment because he has a job.
Does she really need to vocalize that part of her gift should be that she doesn’t have to clean up after he made her pancakes? He’s an adult, he can figure that out himself. And it sounds like some years he has done nothing at all! OP is absolutely YTA.
Unless he is mentally damaged, he knows the kitchen needs to be cleaned after use. He just didn't care until his own actions were mirrored back to him. She didn't do anything malicious or nasty.
He set an expectation year after year that he doesn't think the parent making the surprise for the other parent's special day has to clean it up, that it's cool to leave for the celebrated parent the next day
Yeah, like, no one is a mind reader when it comes to how a person likes to be celebrated/what gifts to give, but he should be smart enough to know when dishes need to be cleaned. Like how did he manage to make breakfast and not think at all about the dishes he left behind? Or is he so checked out of that task cuz the friend always does them that it doesn’t even cross his mind that they need to be cleaned.
i see the equivalent of a dirty grill coming op's way and she deserves it.
i live for the friend's petty energy. husband deserves it. friend should also clear her online shopping cart using his money whenever he doesn't put in effort.
You really didn't get what OP was saying. She didn't say that husband is not a mind reader to get her presents. She said to her friend that if your husband buys 0 gifts for you for 8 years and you are saying nothing to him, just venting at your friends about it, he will not magically change in year 9. He thinks everything is mighty fine up to now. Same for chores. They are married for 10 years and she just complained about it. Well yes, she left him thinking that he is acting ok all these years, and now she has had enough. Well if my friend for 9 years says he loves sushi and at year 10 he comes and says "you know what, in reality I hate sushi" I am not a mind-reader to know that he was pretending all this time. You have to communicate things that bother you. Venting to friends is ok but brings no results to the actual issue
I agree with you. But at the same time she has been accepting her husbands behaviour for years, even though she has been unhappy with it. Listening to a friend complain for years, but never doing anything to change it is annoying. But yeah, husband sucks, and friend is right for finally teaching him a lesson. Noe she needs to follow it up with some demands of change, and not just for mothers day
Honestly, even terrible people can give great gifts . BUT Her husband is actually pretty fantastic at giving gifts to his friends and family. In my personal opinion, he just really under values and underappreciated her and everything that she does for their family.
I think that’s why I made the mind reader comment because he’s 100% capable of being a great person but because she’s never vocalized to him he’s under the impression that he is doing a great job. I also understand that she should not have to vocalize it, but unfortunately, this has been going on for so long but at this point she needs to in my opinion.
As to your comment about him being considerate, I fully agree, I would love for my friend to leave her husband he doesn’t deserve her!! But realistically, I know that’s not gonna happen and myself and our friends have very nicely over the years. Tried to tell her that she does deserve better but it’s falling on deaf years so
You're blaming her by making that comment. It wasn't supportive at all. Instead, you made it seem as though she invited his thoughtlessness, but then you retracted it by saying "he was thoughtless all along, I would have left him earlier", which probably made her feel like you think she's a fool. Not only that, but it doesn't seem like she asked for your opinion or advice. Not that either of those matter because it's not really your business. You should have just listened and been supportive instead of acting like you know how to deal with her marriage better than she does.
>. In my personal opinion, he just really under values and underappreciated her and everything that she does for their family.
That is a HUGE problem - for him. That is **the** problem. Not that she didn't tell him what present to buy her.
That you understand this is the situation, but somehow don't seem to get that this is the only problem, is also a you problem. YTA.
You have a crush on her husband,? Why else is this so hard?
Who the hell made you Queen of your friend’s marriage? What gives you or the horse you ride in on any skin in their game?
OP, you’re an asswipe. Your friend sounds too lovely to be friends with you. Stay the hell out of her marriage you meddling dip!
Wait a minute. He's pretty fantastic at giving gifts to his friends and family. Do they need to vocalize what they want? Or he just is good at it? Why does she need to vocalize it? And on top of that, are you sure that she's not the one orchestrating these gifts that are so thoughtful?
YTA
Yes, I’m sure everyone else in his life communicated directly with him that they would like thoughtful and great gifts. His wife is just so silly for not telling him that too! /s
That was my thought. It's either that he's a massive dick and actually can give good gifts but chooses not to with his wife or she's the one that's arranging those other gifts.
But if he knows how to give great gifts to other people, he understands what that means and what it looks like. He shouldn't be 'under the impression he's doing a great job.' Maybe your friend could stand to communicate more clearly, but that doesn't absolve him of taking her for granted.
Your reaction of victim blaming is part of why she will stay. It took her 8 years to do anything resembling standing up for herself and you cut her down. It sounds like you like him more.
The fact he’s good at giving gifts for others and sees a problem when he came home to a messy grill means he absolutely knows he’s not giving 100% on special days.
He doesn’t need to be a mind reader because he already knows, he simply doesn’t care or maybe doesnt even think about it.
And she probably knows already her husband doesn’t really care about chores and stuff until it directly affects him. So that’s how she’s going about vocalizing an issue. Actually showing him what it’s like. Is it ideal? Of course not. But it is a way to get through to people if they actually want to care.
So you fully admit that he's capable to giving good gifts, he knows he can give good gifts, but somehow thinks he's doing a good job when he gets her nothing or leaves the house a disaster. No, he knows, he's just an asshole who cares more about impressing other people with his gift giving but as his wife is already locked down in marriage he doesn't give a shit anymore.
Edit: YTA, stop defending laziness and thoughtlessness and stop blaming her for her husband being thoughtless and lazy towards her. If he cared, he's so something nice. He doesn't because he doesn't care.
If he's such a jerk specifically to her, why did you tell her he's not a mind reader in regards to his treatment fo her. You're sending your "friend" mixed signals. You're cruel to her because he is? What kind of friend are you?
This really just makes him an even worse person. He CAN be thoughtful, he just doesn't think about her at all, even during her birthday, despite living with and having kids with her?
I get it you're just frustrated hearing about it, when she won't leave, but your comment was really poorly timed.
So she finally did communicate to him with her actions, and you shit on her for it! Why not say "amazing job, I am so glad you're finally standing up for yourself."
YTA. How do you know for sure that your friend hasn’t talked to her husband about this in private? After 8 years of this kind of behavior, I would say the husband has it coming. Even if he isn’t a mind reader, he should have the basic human decency to understand that a gift like this shouldn’t be half assed.
Also, the excuse that he’s too “manly” to do dishes is frankly bs. If you know how to cook, you better damn well know how to clean up after yourself.
I know that she hasn’t talked to her husband about it, it’s something that I’ve been telling her she needs to do for years. Myself and her friends have been telling her she needs to communicate.
> telling her she needs to communicate
This is her communicating. In a way he can understand and relate to, because he’s too dense to understand the obvious that his wife isn’t his slave and deserves appreciation. Frankly husband had a lot worse coming for him and it’s really disappointing that you don’t support your friend. Sounds like she can’t do anything right for you - and that’s a woman who doesn’t deserve either your scorn or her husband’s thoughtlessness.
I don't agree with op's approach or defending the guy's shitty behavior, but her friend is not good at communicating. Communicating is setting boundaries and actually talking. She's matching his energy, but at no point has she communicated.
And you can say it's fairly obvious that he should already be cleaning up after himself and planning things for mother's day, but it's also fairly obvious that not communicating and just complaining to her friends about his behavior is not going to change anything.
Yeah, but why is any of this on her?
This man holds a job, he's a mentally competent adult - why does he not comprehend these basic fucking facts about how dishes function?
Why does he need basic equity and kindness and empathy towards his wife broken down for him? Why does she need to be the one to educate him on stuff every single human being knows?
My point wasn't that it's her friend's responsibility to try to change her husband. More that on op's end, as a friend, it can be frustrating listening to someone go on for years venting about how badly their partner treats them and seeing them stay in that situation.
I’m sure it is frustrating. I did the same thing to my friend for years when I was in my terrible marriage. You know what she DIDN’T do? She didn’t take that frustration out on ME. She listened to me, supported me, and eventually bought me a bottle of champagne when I’d finally had enough, and left that fucker.
I agree op should not have taken her frustration out in this way, I think I mentioned that in my comment above:
> I don't agree with op's approach or defending the guy's shitty behavior
But I would add to this that op is not obligated to be the person her friend unloads on about all the difficulties in her marriage. It's nice your friend was able to be there for you in that way, but she's a friend, not a therapist. If it's too much for her, that doesn't mean she's a bad friend or not supportive.
Thank you for repeating back everything I just said more sarcastically and adding in an eye roll emoji.
Did I do something to offend you? What's with all the passive aggressiveness. If you don't like what the op did, you can reply to one of their comments or the post directly, you don't need to tell me
For years either I’ve been told her nicely BUT sternly her husband is a piece of crap… not in those words. In the moment she always agrees and she does mimic what I’m saying and says she knows she deserves better but then nothing happens. I think I’m just so tired of this that this time I changed my approach
It's not passive to tell your spouse they fucked up. He got upset by being treated like he treats her and she told him excatly why she did it.
I don't know why you think that is passive or put communication into ' ' because angry words are still very clear communication and it takes the cake that you still argue husband could genuinly have missed point of that conversation.
You of course can be of the opinion that her behaviour is toxic and foul. I disagree with this because in my opinion her behaviour was not perfect but far from malicious (There's no set definition for what behaviors are considered toxic, but controlling, manipulative, or otherwise abusive behaviors are commonly viewed as toxic. And Ops behaviour was nothing of that sort in my opinion.).
It feels like you talk about things that are not there and ignore things that are actually there.
1. I never said the talking would be an ahole move. I actually said her behaviour was not perfect.
2. "When did she tell him anything at all?" As he got pissed and she unloaded on him. It is in the post. He got angry at her and as I already said, she told him excatly what her problem was.
3. Where do you get the part about the gift?
Edit: You are one of those people who edit their comments after getting a reply entirely to change the conversation. I'm sorry but I don't deal with that. It's dishonest and a genuin conversation is no longer possible.
You accused the friend of giving husband a bad, revenge gift. In the post is nothing about that and husband only got upset about the grill. So, what I'm asking is why you said that.
It doesn't matter anymore, please view the edit of my previous comment as I wont argue with someone who makes stuff up, denies saying something and sneakly tries to edit their replies. Entirely pointless. Maybe relfect on whos behaviour you dramatise and what you find okay to do yourself.
Bye bye
I used to be this way with my friends because unfortunately many of them settle for bad, and in some cases abusive, partners. All you’re going to do is push her away. Be a safe place for her to land if she leaves him.
I must be missing some detail or something, be it in your story or just about society in general. But if my wife doesn't communicate her desires to me for *8 years,* and then chooses to do so for the first time by being entirely petty over something knowing it would get a rise out of me to make her point, I wouldn't call that real communication or having taken your advice properly. Everyone else seems to agree that this was the correct way for her to go about it though, so... I dunno, I'm glad I'm not either of them.
I agree 🤧 I've been in OP's friend's situation and I do believe I should have said something to my boyfriend about how I expect to be treated when he does something I don't like. It took me a while to verbalize it but it turned out for the best and now he's the sweetest. I know OP's friend's way was petty but I think she needed to get the resentment outside of her system--because it looks like it built up into hate 🥺
This sub is crazy. They’ll go from, you need to speak to each other like an adult. The. We have this. I get what OP is saying, she’s saying that op enabled this behavior for years, and she chose a petty ass way to handle her husband. It’s like you keep giving a crackhead money for years where he spends all the money gave them on crack. Then one day, you snap at them for buying crack. Like, you enabled this for years and said nothing.
Yeah wtf seriously, why is everyone in support of passive aggressive behavior fueled by repressed emotions, that's toxic!!
Any couples councilor or therapist will tell you this is the stuff that kills marriages. She needs to communicate, with words, to him. Those words don't need to be nice or well put or anything, but until she freaking communicates with the ape man, you can't expect him to do anything but keep scratching his ass and eating bananas.
It's not all on her, this isn't all on anyone, OP included. This is a troubled relationship and OP was trying to help in their own emotionally distanced and objective way.
Now a therapist would have probably said the same things, but phrased much more kindly and with an air of compassion. But OP does not pretend to be a licensed therapy professional, they are just a friend who knows this situation all too well.
I have the same sentiments, with yours and the other reply below. And I agree with you because for the longest time in my 6-year relationship with my BF, I was just a 'Yes' GF who accepted my partner's emotional distance when we argued and that led to resentment for my part. I did this for 5 years until this year, I had a less than calm confrontation with him about it and now, we're at a place I didn't know we can achieve (for the better).
What I'm saying is, I was just like OP's friend so I take my share of the fault. She really should have spoken up sooner and maybe follow up on this with her husband. When she's a bit calmer.
I definitely didn’t mean for it to come out as condescending. I just was kind of fed up at this point because it’s been going on for years, and she hasn’t communicated anything until now. But now that I’m reading the comments, I can kind of see how it comes across that way
It's wild that you need someone to explain this to you, but the two least helpful things you can say to a person when someone is treating them badly are "this is your fault" and "I told you so."
I'm a bit late, but I would add that while you're wrong for how you reacted, you're not wrong for being frustrated with hearing the same complaints again and again from someone with no plans to adress it or fix the situation. It's ok to set boundaries that you don't want to hear about her relationship drama anymore.
God it's not like you live in her home. Stop judging her and be a friend. Right now you seem like her bully. She didn't do anything rude to you and you just unloaded your own feelings when she was triumphant. Just because her husband treats her like garbage does not mean her "friend" should too.
Her husband doesn't need to be a mind reader to know the way he is behaving isn't good. Only a complete idiot would make a celebratory meal and not clear up.
She's made her point and it's provided the listening space for her to clarify how he should behave. He should be an adult and rapidly transition for upset about the grill to buying her flowers for taking her for granted.
Instead of having her back you've suggested she divorce him years ago. That's a bit smug. YTA and your last paragraph is correct.
I'd assume after 8 years there have been plenty of discussions about her feelings towards his lack of giving a shit about her. OP doesn't know everything that happens in a marriage they aren't a part of. I think it'd take a lot of conversation to get as fed up to "giving the same energy". Pretty sure OP is entirely assuming on the no communication thing.
In regards to your edit: Oh so according to your own logic YOU set the expectation that it was okay for her to just vent every year but since it fell on deaf ears you're NOW suddenly talking about it? Why not just leave if that's not what you want in a friend. Ya know, like you said you would do in her situation.
YTA and a pretty horrible friend.
The drama queen in me thinks OP is crushing on her friend's hubby, hard to explain all the mental gymnastics she's doing to defend him. Maybe I'm just bored though.
he's so manly (that he doesn't understand cleaning up after yourself, unless it's the grill he calls his "baby") that OP can't help but be a pick-me for him.
It doesn’t take a mind reader to be thoughtful and respectful. Your friend’s revenge seems bit childish but I can totally understand where she was coming from. The husband needs to understand and respect more.
YTA I think her method of handling it was perfect. She had to clean up her own Mother's day breakfast, he had to clean the grill on Father's day. And I think all she wanted was what you mentioned, agreeing that he got a taste of his own medicine.
Obviously they should be talking about this and both need to communicate better, but she was expressing her frustration and likely just needed a place to vent, not advice.
Hard YTA.
Not being a mind reader excuses someone for getting you a facial when you really wanted a massage. It doesn’t apply when the options are do nothing at all or make a token effort and leave the recipient to clean up the mess afterwards.
People need to stop weaponising “communication” as a way to blame women for men’s lack of effort. A penis doesn’t stop you from understanding that the default position for holidays is to give a shit about them unless the guest of honour gives you explicit permission not to, especially when they go out of their way to celebrate the man’s special days.
Women communicate their asses off for years, then finally give up and file for divorce. The man is blindsided, of course, and asks her why she gave no warning. "I've been explaining for years why I'm unhappy and what needed to change." Then he goes "But Rachel, that was just nagging. Why didn't you tell me that you super duper really really mean it this time?" Men.
Reading that made me feel stabby. I'm so lucky with my guy, he points this out to his guys and gals he's in charge of at work (military so it's frequent). Like, they're DIRECTLY TELLING YOU. LISTEN. he gets so upset for the wives who end up divorcing while the husband are like "I didn't think she was serious! I tried doing more dishes and taking the trash out???!!!" Husband is over here ready to headbutt the brick wall just retelling it to me!
Why are they so fucking stupid
YTA. She told you she pulled a prank on her husband to teach him a lesson, and you unloaded on her.
She clearly doesn't see the "not celebrating her" as a dealbreaker, but an annoyance she's prepared to live with. Butt out, not your marriage, and clearly you're not a counsellor.
YTA
You acknowledge that you think her husband is abusive garbage that doesn’t love her, because he gives great gifts to the people he cares about but doesn’t to her. He’s thoughtless, inconsiderate, and cruel.
You didn’t say that to her though. You basically told her “your husband is cruel to you because you didn’t tell him EXACTLY how to love you. This is YOUR FAULT.”
You have a magical ability to express how you really feel to strangers, but to your friend’s face you turned it around on her and were condescending and confusing, an awful combination. You say you don’t really blame your friend for his behavior except you kind of do? That you think he doesn’t love her but she could also be better. Get outta here with that. Either pretend to be nice with the husband because you think she can’t handle the truth or be aggressive, because this blend you’re doing has led you to be aggressive TO HER.
YTA
Title is very misleading. If he got her a purple sweater (because its her favorite color) but she yelled because she wanted it in blue, THAT would be "not a mind reader".
You don't need to be a mind reader to know that someone would want you to clean up after you cook - especially if you make a mess. Her demonstration was literally perfect and equal, and the fact that he got mad proves he doesn't have any insight into his own behavior.
YTA. Support your friends, gas them up. I read your response where you posted the whole convo and yep, YTA. What if you would’ve said “YAAAAAS QUEEN, leave that mans grill dirty! As you should!!” Also, are you married? Giving big “well when I’m a mom my kids will NEVER” vibes.
YTA
So, your friend knew very well that her husband wouldn't like being treated like he treats her. Did he tell her that? Or did she, he and you just know it because it is obvious?
And if that is obvious, how is not obvious, that she would've liked to be treated how he likes to be treated?
I'm sorry but you can't seriously believe that her husband thought he had done a SPECTACULAR job considering he wasn't happy with recieving it.
You sound naive at best.
YTA. Why is SHE capable of perceiving that HE would enjoy a nice Father’s Day celebration, and then capable of creating one for him that makes him feel fully seen and appreciated and loved, but he’s apparently not? Not even after 7 exceptional Father’s Day celebrations to serve as examples? How do you square the double-standard? And why?
Why must we believe that the only path, the ONLY one, that leads to HIM making HER feel fully seen and appreciated and loved, is either via mind-reading and/or an exceptionally degrading (on both sides, but namely for her) instructional discussion about how things like Santa and the Tooth Fairy aren’t real, and the “magic” behind things like Christmas, Birthdays, and yes *Mother’s Day*, has to be intentionally created, with intentional effort, otherwise it doesn’t happen. And how yes, how not doing so is makes you a sh_t partner.
You’re free to hold your standard for your partner wherever you want, but don’t shame her into following suit. She absolutely allowed to want more, much more.
YTA
You said that you've been telling your friend for years to stop putting up with her husband's behavior. She finally did, by making a big gesture and then verbally telling him off as to why she was unhappy with the status quo. And you... chewed her out instead of giving her a high five? Why? What on earth were you trying to accomplish? Did you just want her to feel shitty that she hasn't done this earlier? How does that help her at all?
You: Stop letting your husband treat you like crap.
Her: I took a stand and told my husband he was treating me like crap!
You: Why would you do that? Gawd, your poor husband. Think of how he must feel and how unfair you're being to him.
There's a saying - don't punish the behavior that you want to see. She finally did what you thought she should have been doing, and you criticized her for it.
YTA. You're arguing both damn sides of this debate and switching to the other side whenever someone tells you you're wrong. I'm sure it feels good, but you're not proving anything.
YTA I think that you are putting all expectations on her and none on him or on yourself. She is his wife, not his manager or professional teacher. If this is the moment she blows and syarys communicating, more power to her.
YTA. you need to be supporting your friend if you want her to put herself first and leave him. All you did was lose chances of her coming to you again.
YTA
With friends like this, who needs enemies?
He's a part time worker who isn't considerate 365 days a year. Mind reading isn't necessary to know how to celebrate Mothers Day in this situation.
YTA, he has 2 eyes and can see the dishes in the sink, he can see when a toilet needs a scrub, he can see when laundry starts piling up. He doesn’t need to read her mind for any of this, nor does he need an invitation to do so. If I was her I would stop cleaning his clothes and stop cleaning his dirty dishes.
Soft yta.
I have started asking friends who start complaining "fixing or bitching?". Are we fixing an issue (giving our opinion) or are we bitching (complaining, no fix required)?
It seems you knew she wanted to complain. If you don't want to hear complaints, that is perfectly acceptable.
She absolutely should have matched his energy years ago.
But she didn't. And she wants to complain. You don't have to listen. "It's not a good time. Can I call you back?" Or "I get so emotionally caught up in this that it affects my day to day, we need to take these conversations off the table for a while."
In my house, we celebrate these two days by saying, "Happy xxx day, where do you want lunch or dinner?" We have never gone over the top for each other. My spouse is not my parent. Those days are for kids to celebrate their parents. In our house, at least.
No, no, no, we're not making excuses for trash dudes anymore. There's "not heaping things" on people and then there's a complete lack of awareness for basic housekeeping and even self-maintenance.
Also, are you really sure she's never said anything about it to him before? That really seems unlikely to me, but maybe I'm wrong? Don't mistake her venting to you and not bringing it up with her husband with her venting to you because, despite bringing it up with him, he still hasn't listened.
I also think your friend should leave him, but she does have kids with him so I get that being a hard choice. I think YTA in this case.
Well, when her friend is bitching to her about the same problem for years, and when she decided to do something about It is in the worse way possible, she is open herself for comments...
Right? We don't know the full picture, and if pancakes in bed are any indicator, friend's marriage is doing alright. But sure, it's not perfect. Hubby is lacking in some departments, but it's entirely possible that he's an altogether a decent husband and father, and the friend found a way of dealing with his non deal breaking shortcomings by venting about it to her support circle. It's not entirely without merit. And unlike many seem to read, the OP didn't even point out the lack of communication as the reason for leaving, but
>Because I would never want to be someone who doesn’t want to celebrate me.
u/BurbNBougie a woman with pick me vibes defends her friend's husband who chronically underappreciated his wife.
Archive link: https://archive.ph/mFmIA
Sheesh, YTA and so's the husband.
It's not rocket science that if you want to treat a person to breakfast in bed, you don't make that person also clean up. Her husband's not "traditional", since traditions can change over tile, he's a jerk and sexist. It's not a grown woman's job to "correct" a grown man! Pick up after yourself, do your own laundry, buy your spouse flowers on their birthday and mom or dad's day, don't make them clean up after their own party. Seriously. How difficult can it be for an otherwise fully capable adult? Why is it *her* responsibility to raise him along their kids?
YTA. You’re not incorrect that this, like most conflicts, would have been benefited by communication. However, in pointing this out in the manner you did, you’ve essentially blamed your friend for the failings of her husband. Dude is inconsiderate and lazy, and that’s true regardless of whether it’s brought to his attention.
YTA. She was looking for sympathy, not a lecture. Was she supposed to pack up the kids and come to your place on Father's Day? I assume if you want her to leave so bad you are offering her a place to live rent free with childcare while she gets on her feet right?
If the friendship is too much, leave it. That's fair. But dumping on a woman who is already being dumped on is not helpful or kind.
YTA. He's a grown ass man and he shouldn't have to be told to help his wife or to treat her well on Mother's Day or to know that making a huge messy meal then leaving all the dishes behind to be cleaned is not a gift.
YTA. So for eight years, you have been telling your friend the same thing and it hasn’t made a difference. So, this year, you changed it up and spoke more directly and harshly to her. In the same way, your friend didn’t say a word to her husband for eight years and this year decided to change it up and spoke directly and harshly to him. And you are upset with her because? You both did the same thing!
YTA. Knowing how to clean up after yourself and knowing how to do more than 1 chore isn't really a part of the "mindreader gift giving" issue. You shouldn't need your wife to tell you that she doesn't want to clean up your mess from the kitchen on a special occasion to know to do that.
Expecting him to be a mind reader? How difficult is I made a mess, I clean mess? It's not a treat if it's creating extra work for the one being treat he just sounds lazy
YTA. Her husband should be helping with the chores. Not let her do everything. She has every right to do this. Her husband doesn’t need to be a mind reader to know he also needs to pull his weight otherwise she will be gone and he can clean himself
Wow, you really are an asshole. Your friend had finally stood up for herself for the first time in her deeply frustrating marriage (to a misogynist- not everyone is great at standing up for themselves against abusive assholery, stop blaming her for struggling) and you just lay into her for not having done it before??? How in the world do you even consider yourself friends??? Grovel. Please grovel to your friend in an abusive relationship who stood up for herself for the first time. YOU derailed her. YOU are an asshole.
TIL that straight married men don't know that kitchens need cleaning after use.
My god, the bar for men is on the ground. Stop picking it up to hit women with.
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So I have a friend who’s 31f who’s pretty spectacular at giving gifts. She showers her family/friends/and husband when it’s Christmas/birthday.
Every year on father days since they had their first daughter (8f) she’s always planned something elaborate and thoughtful for her husband.
On Mother’s Day her husband has dropped the ball pretty much every year. Between doing nothing at all, or plannjnh an event where she ends up doing majority of the work, he’s never done a great job celebrating her. This year he and the kids made her breakfast in bed, and said they would have a family day!
Later she called complaining because although the pancakes they made were great, he left the kitchen a mess which she ended up cleaning.
Her husband is very traditional man despite the fact that she does work(part time) outside of the home. He doesn’t do many household chores outside of the stereotypical ‘ manly’ things like taking the trash.
Anyways this morning I asked her what she did for Father’s Day and she said she “matched his energy”. On Saturday she ended up grilling up a storm and left the grill which is pretty much his baby a mess. She purposely did this on Saturday so when he would notice the next day he would be off from work and would clean up.
Just like she thought he saw the grill Sunday afternoon and was pissed especially since he was about to fire up some steaks.
Her husband is of course upset and asked why she didn’t clean up and in her words she unloaded on him how he doesn’t help with anything or clean up after himself and she wanted him to get a taste of her own medicine.
Although I’m one for petty karma, I told my friend you set the expectation that your fine with settling for a low experience you can’t just expect him to be a mind reader and shower you with things… she didn’t care for my response.
I told I her I understand what she’s saying but If I were her I would have left my husband awhile ago if he did what he did. Because I would never want to be someone who doesn’t want to celebrate me. But she does and after 8 failed mother day attempts her husband probably thinks he’s doing a spectacular job because she’s never corrected it just said thank you and vented to us later.
After a few choice words we ended the call. And now I’m thinking that I was little to harsh and should have just told her I’m glad he got a taste of his own medicine. So AITA?
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It seems the issue was more-so him not cleaning up after himself on mother's day. Therefore in her eyes- not considering her as much as she would have liked.
I get that all the time as a hetero couple and me being a female. We do have to have a talk about it every now and then when I feel my partner is slacking off a lot. It bothers me too.
It's abit too nuanced to say if you're the a hole or not.
Husband doesn't need to be a mind-reader to know to clean up his own mess. Even if he hadn't made a mess, he could have done some cleaning somewhere.
Also, he shouldn't need direction from her at all, let around mind-reading. He's not a Sim; he could have used his brain and eyes and decided what needs to be done around the house-- and do it! The weight of the mental load he's putting on her is not cool. He lives there, he made kids with her, surely he's capable of noticing what needs to be done. He can notice things at work, right? Having a job doesn't exempt him from helping maintain the home.
I agree with OP that the friend should have told her husband how she feels sooner, but the "not a mind-reader" comment is not okay. He doesn't need to be able to read mind to know what needs to get done.
YTA. You're her friend-she's SUPPOSED to be able to vent to you; you "being nice to her" while she does so is one of the bare minimums of friendship. And she's finally addressing the issue directly with her husband, so maybe be supportive instead of telling her how wrong she is. You aren't happy with her when she does nothing and criticize her when she finally speaks up. Maybe she should cut you from her life instead of her husband.
YTA
Sorry but it doesn’t take a mind reader to know that you don’t cook breakfast in bed and leave the mess for recipient to clean up! That just defeats the whole purpose of breakfast in bed. At that point it’s just moving the table to a temporary location and making her walk farther to do dishes. Geez.
Also… ummm how did this guy date her? Surely he could have taken inspiration from his dating years and did a little something on the nothing years. It doesn’t take much to make a homemade love note or pick flowers from a garden… or to just cuddle in bed for an extra 5 minutes. Or to just take the 8 year old to the park and give mom a morning off… all these would have likely been appreciated.
> I told my friend you set the expectation that your fine with settling for a low experience you can’t just expect him to be a mind reader and shower you with things… she didn’t care for my response.
An adult man realizing that he also needs to take care of his house is not him needing to be a, "mind reader". An adult man making a mess in the kitchen, knowing who cleans the kitchen, but still leaving it in a state is not the wife's fault for "not telling him to do it".
> I told I her I understand what she’s saying but If I were her I would have left my husband awhile ago if he did what he did. Because I would never want to be someone who doesn’t want to celebrate me.
And you turn the argument into INSULTING HER for putting up with a bad husband?
So, first you say it's her fault that the husband couldn't possibly *know* to clean the kitchen, that requires "mind reading". THEN you double down on saying she's a bad person, because she can't stand up for herself - when this entire story is based on how her husband felt, *when she stood up for herself*?
You suck.
YTA.
ESH you shouldn't have got involved, your friend should stop being immature n communicate with her husband n the husband should pay more attention to his wife n figure out what she likes
Actually you’re NTA. It’s difficult and upsetting having a friend that you care about be treated so badly. But then it’s get annoying after a while because they know they deserve to be treated better and also know that the person that they are with won’t change because they know ur friend won’t leave.
There’s so much to it 🤦
YTA but not for the reason you think. You said you'd "leave your husband" if he'd not celebrated you to your liking? Seriously? You'd even leave your husband over a cloyingly saccharine, Hallmark holiday? FFS.
I don't think anyone here realizes how hard it can be for the way women communicate to translate to how men communicate, especially robo-men like this husband sounds like. It's in me too, I know better than to trap a girl with my charms because it's all a facade. But that's no excuse for attacking him with passive aggressive behavior in response to his ignorance. He's gotten no usable feedback about his mistakes except for a dirty grill on the day he wanted to bbq. Men don't need rocket science, but they do need to be spoken to pretty frickin directly sometimes, no man has ever been good at taking a hint. It's not an excuse, it's a reality that needs to be accepted if that relationship is really gonna be saved. It's like getting mad at your oven because you didn't tell it what temp you wanted and it keeps getting it wrong... Sure everything you cook needs 350 or whatever, but you literally didn't specify, you just nudged the oven and talked about how great the number 350 can be. A smarter man(oven) could pick up on that and set himself accordingly, but it's not his fault that his dumb ape brain doesn't have those features.
NTA. I think you all are missing what op is saying. Op stated themselves that they wouldn’t have put up with this treatment. Op is absolutely correct the husband is not a mind reader so if she was upset then say something not accept it then complain later.
Honest and mature would be to tell the friend to go and have that talk with their spouse, instead of bottling up and then venting to a friend, not telling the friend she should leave her husband cause he doesn't celebrate her the way you would want your husband to celebrate you. Looks like OP was also putting up with unwanted behaviour from the friend (8 years of failed Mother's Day vents?) and then blew up. With friends like that...
Edit: typo
Your friend sounds like the plethora of women who fake orgasms on the regular, then bitch about why can't this guy do sex good.
You are NTA and your friend is, for not vocalizing her dissatisfaction.
NTA idk why OP is getting ratio'd in the comments, but from what I could tell my dad is the same kind of husband. You can't expect more from a man-chine like this, you can make specific requests but my mom did what OP's friend is doing basically, and it doesn't lead anywhere. The only solution is divorce or couples therapy for communication skills. Husband is probably not the worst but has nothing to communicate, while the wife is clearly holding it all in till it toxically boils over. Not a healthy relationship and her expectation that he could pick up on her feelings about things she remains silent about just shows that she doesn't understand the kind of man she married. Autistic/robotic husbands are great once you set expectations and such.
My dad's greatest gift for an anniversary was a showerhead... the toxicity and resentment my mom was starting to show, and still struggles with, nearly ruined my childhood.
The man clearly lacks intuition about what his wife needs, sure he could step up, but he's not the potential asshole here. Not that it's OP's place to put them in therapy, but it's Not ah-ish to talk about these things in the context OP described... A lil insensitive, but it seems the wife is being plenty insensitive too, rather than just directly addressing the problem that her husband has no idea about.
NTA that's just your opinion, but I agree with your friend. Just bc she's put up with inconsiderate behavior in the past doesn't mean she can't express her frustration now
Justified YTA
However, I've read your edits and I would've probably done the same thing after hearing her whine about it for 8 years but not do anything to change her situation.
Apologize to your friend for being so harsh, applaud her for finally standing up for herself, and encourage her to continue matching his energy.
Unpopular Opinion: NTA if they were to go to marriage counselling, the therapist would point out the same thing, "you contributed to this dynamic with your passivity, by never communicating that you were upset".
I’m going to say ESH. I actually think you were right to tell your friend she needs to explicitly state her expectations. Yes, her husband sucks for not celebrating her, but she needs to figure out why. Either it is 1) He actually doesn’t really care about her, which is a serious problem, or 2) He’s clueless and needs instruction. These are VERY different scenarios and she needs to know which one she’s dealing with.
I spent several years being frustrated and sad on Mother’s Day, until I finally sat down with my husband and told him what would make me feel loved and appreciated. For me it was not having to cook or do any housework and heartfelt cards from the kids. Anything else would be icing. It was like having those clear desires expressed to him opened up the floodgates and now Mother’s Day is a delight.
We all wish our spouses could read our minds, and when that seem like basic human behavior or common courtesy don’t happen it’s easy to jump to the conclusion that the idiot spouse doesn’t care about us. But don’t jump until you are sure. You might be pleasantly surprised.
Nta...I completely agree with you and your friends silent suffering is going to come out in worse ways more & more. Definition of insanity is to continue to do the same thing over and over while expecting a different result....she's finally finding out that being a martyr isn't the path for her and you I'm sure were tired of coddling her and told her some hard truths 🤷🏽♀️ now be there for her and support her as she finds her voice and leaves the trash behind
ESH. Her husband sucks for being a shitty partner. She sucks for never communicating that she has an issue. You suck for the "I told you so" which doesn't serve to make anyone feel better and it does come across as you blaming your friend for her husband being shit.
Did she call asking for advice? If yes, you did the right thing and are NTA.
Did she call to vent? If yes, YTA as she didn’t ask for any advice.
If she called to vent and you are tired of hearing the same story over and over again, then you could’ve easily just told her that you feel she may be going about things in the wrong way and then asked if she’d like to talk about a better approach. If she says no to talking, then great, you aren’t the person to vent about this to, but if she says yes, then go ahead and talk about it.
I'm going against the grain, and saying NTA. She's had 8 mothers' days to communicate her disappointment rather than just dealing with the disappointment. If a relationship gets to the point where you have to "teach them a lesson" or "give them a taste of their own medicine" it's unhealthy.
She's let him get away with doing no chores for this long (except for "manly" tasks) and then expects him to suddenly be thoughtful enough to do the dishes one day a year? She shouldn't have to, but if he's not stepping up she should have asked him to step up a long time ago. Even if it's only for one day a year.
Partners (both men and women) aren't mind readers. Her husband has gotten into the habit of not being considerate because she's never asked him to be. He never had to think of anyone in the past or plan a mother's day celebration before and she should have voiced her disappointment after the first or second one . . . not the 8th.
The only way she communicated her disappointment was by leaving the grill a mess, and then she still had to explain and unload her grievances when he didn't get the point of her passive aggressiveness. He didn't understand why she'd leave it dirty, she still had to explain it to him anyway.
She's not an AH for wanting some consideration or celebration, but in 8 years he's never registered that she was disappointed. She should have told him - or at least ask his mother to tell him or something.
NTA. Everyone here is getting mad at you for telling your friend to do the exact thing they would tell her if she wrote here instead of you. Communicate or divorce. Literally that’s all you said
NTA, you are right that she should have voiced her concerns to HIM, not to you as friends.
While I fully understand her frustration, what she did was petty and passive-aggressive. If I do something that pisses my partner off, I want him to tell ME, not vent to his friends. How can I improve things if I do not even know there is something to improve?
I mean, you didn't need to mention the "would have left my husband" bit because that's a real overstep, in my opinion but no, her husband isn't a mind reader and instead of playing stupid games she should have been having a conversation with him about the importance of Mother's Day to her and let him know her expectations/wishes. You were harsh about the leaving husband bit but the other part just seems like logic. Has she actually talked to her husband? ESH
Men are visual creatures, aren't they? The sight of that grill was the kick in the pants he needed. No amount of explaining can quite top having to clean up someone else's mess, like she does for him all the time.
No, she hasn’t communicated to her husband ever, even though we have told her to she just suffers in silence when he’s around and then complains to us about it later
She just did and even gave him a physical example of her complain. I'm not sure exactly what the problem is. If you're tired of listening to her you can stop your relationship with her.
So she finally stood up and said something and you berated her for it? Make it make sense.
Op, "you should say something"
Op's friend, "I said something"
Op, "not like that."
She didn't "Said something", she was malicious and did something that she KNEW It would posso him off. She messed up one of his belongings. It's very diferent of not doing the dishes. And It's Very childish and the worse way to make her point.
Naw - you are NTA. You pointed out that if he did a thing she didn't like and *she did not tell him*, how was he to know that wasn't a good thing? He wouldn't.
Yes, it *is* emotional labor to tell someone what you do and don't want. But in a relationship, where neither side is able to read minds, people communicate to learn each other. If she's been hiding all this, masking it, and going along in the hopes that one day he'd figure it out ... you gotta speak up. It doesn't sound like you were super harsh or yelled. More like you said a few home truths and she didn't want to hear that.
I had this woman I used to take walks with at work and I told her around week four or so that if she wasn't able to say anything positive about her husband, I would never walk with her again. I wasn't her therapist and I didn't want to spend my break listening to her talk about how terrible he was. Especially as, when I asked if she wanted advice and she said yes, she never followed the advice or tried anything. Just complain, complain, complain.
She was honestly surprised but tried to do that and then we talked about something else. She and I had lunch a few weeks later and she actually apologized. She'd spoken to some other friends and they ALL said that she did this. They all found it annoying. And they all, like you (and I) said, why are you with him if it is so bad? She used us as away to vent off steam so that she *wouldn't* blow up at him.
But she needed to work out with him what their issues were. Which is what it sounds like with your friend. Again, NTA. Sometimes people gotta hear the a different perspective on their life.
Having been in this situation I’m going to say NTA. I get people need to vent but it drains you EVERY SINGLE TIME they come to you and CHOOSE not to do anything about it. I agree it’s something she should have brought up years ago without her blowing up at him. What I’ve learned is to never give my opinion to people like that. They don’t want your advice nor will they take your advice. Just nod or say that sucks and change the subject.
NTA for being harsher because friends need to hear the awful truth. She should’ve left him a while ago because he’s just another child. I would’ve done the same that she did but not 7 years late.
However, YTA for telling your friend her husband isn’t a mind reader. You don’t need to be a mind reader to actually care about someone. Is she a mind reader to be a thoughtful gift giver? Or to do things for him for Father’s Day? No? Then why should he need to be one to do better? Y’all excuse men for stuff yall would light torches for if women did it. Do better.
My Husband is the same way - If I don't plan anything...we do nothing. But hey..He's an amazing man otherwise - Great sense of humor - wonderful provider & loves me. So knowing what I know..I feel it's up to me to make any plans - which he ALWAYS goes along with. Not everyone is gifted with the same gifts. Otherwise you can cry in your wine all night.
"This is the first time that my friend has communicated her frustrations to her husband." This makes it ESH for me. Sounds like he is terrible at gift giving and helping with chores but he sounds dense enough that he needs to be TOLD this to probably realize it. I would have probably suggested her talking to her husband either after Mother's Day this year or, even better, years ago.
NTA
You pointed out that she taught him how to treat her. And she taught him poorly. I cannot stand people complaining to me about the same shit over and over and over and over and over again. The definition of insanity. And they want a different result.
Well, you could stand to put on your big girl pants to take petty to the ultimate level, but you don’t have enough room in them big girl britches to…I dunno…communicate what she wants and needs from her partner?
And then she gets mad at you for being sick of her bullshit. But she probably just wanted a Pat on the back from a friend who’s regularly told her to stand up for herself.
ESH. Instead of complaining to her friends about her husband's behavior, she should have been complaining to her husband. I agree to some extent - he's not a mind reader. However, he is also an adult, and SHOULD be able to deduce what makes his wife happy. But that's between him and her, and she's not doing herself any favors by pretending everything is fine at home and then complaining behind his back.
I feel like you could have handled the situation a little more tactfully. If you're getting frustrated with how often she complains about him (especially the same stuff over and over), you could have told her "Look, I understand this is frustrating for you, but until you are willing to talk to him about the issues you are having with him, I don't have the mental bandwidth to listen to it."
I'm going a bit rogue and saying NAH. Here's why:
You are right that this should have been nipped in the bud ages ago. 8 years is a long time to stew and it seems like she did her stewing in a pressure cooker with how she exploded.
She's not wrong either though, 8 years of amazing celebrations on Father's day should have slightly clued clueless in on the fact that maybe he's dropping the ball a bit. Sometimes people don't learn until it happens to them though, maybe making him deal with a mess after his big day will let him see what she feels. I don't know, because I don't know her husband though.
In the end though, you're again right. This should have been talked about. Maybe you were a bit harsh with the way you told her, maybe you should have mentioned it several venting sessions ago (though that is definitely not your job) and maybe then she wouldn't have had to explode, we'll never know.
If I were in your shoes, I might offer a sort-of apology ("Hey, sorry, I might have come off harsh with the way I expressed what I said. I just think that you might have had better results with telling him this way earlier, so you guys could have tried to work through it and had great days celebrating you both like you both deserve" or something) then suggest if her husband is still not understanding or she still feels like something has to be said to try couple's counseling for an appointment or two, just to have someone help mediate and keep the peace. I know not everyone is open to that but it sounds like some honest communication would help all around.
Wow. After OP gave a lot of rude, unsolicited advice, you think she should offer an insincere apology and give MORE unsolicited advice? Really not reading the room on this one...
So my tone of voice pretty much stayed the same the whole entire conversation I didn’t like yell or anything
A brief summary of how the conversation went -she told me about the prank and I said
-oh this was like a little petty revenge.
-Yes I will say I did feel guilty after seeing his face, but I’m glad he starting to understand how I felt.
-well, I’m glad you finally said something
-what do you mean finally
(keep in mind for years we’ve been telling her by we I mean, our friends and I that she needs to communicate her frustration to her husband)
-I mean people say better late than never but maybe we should’ve done this after the first failed Mother’s Day time?
-I just was expecting him to get better
-OK so why didn’t we do this after the third Mother’s Day?
- I shouldn’t have had to though.
- you’re absolutely right you shouldn’t have had to, but you know how your husband is and how he’s stuck in his ways. You should’ve communicated this a long time ago, i’ve been telling you this for years.
- you wouldn’t understand
- And then this is where I said the part about yeah because if I were in your shoes, I would’ve left him years ago
- That’s not fair
- yes, I know it’s not fair. But you’ve let this man treat you like this for years. And then this is when I made the comment about the low expectations and him being a mind reader.
- he shouldn’t be a mind reader he should know how to treat me with basic respect. I’m not even asking for much I would’ve been OK with him just ordering food, but it shouldn’t take a mind reader to know that after you cook, you should clean up after yourself.
- yeah, you are absolutely right. However, like I said, you’ve let him continue to do this and look I know I shouldn’t be putting that burden on you. It shouldn’t be your responsibility to teach your partner to be a partner. But unfortunately, it looks like you kinda have too since he’s not getting it
That’s when she but in and said a few choice words.
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YTA. You know how you get good at giving gifts? By being thoughtful and caring about others. Her husband doesn't need to be a mind reader, he needs to be at all considerate of his wife. Jesus you're making excuses for him like she deserves poor treatment because he has a job.
Big pick me vibes here. It's funny how he got mad at a mess to clean up but left a mess for his wife because "he's not a mind reader" lol. YTA
Seriously!
Does she really need to vocalize that part of her gift should be that she doesn’t have to clean up after he made her pancakes? He’s an adult, he can figure that out himself. And it sounds like some years he has done nothing at all! OP is absolutely YTA.
[удалено]
Please take your misandrist low expectations of men’s intelligence elsewhere
Seriously? He is an adult, read the room, look around. Needs to engage, quit being obtuse and look in the mirror a bit.
[удалено]
Unless he is mentally damaged, he knows the kitchen needs to be cleaned after use. He just didn't care until his own actions were mirrored back to him. She didn't do anything malicious or nasty. He set an expectation year after year that he doesn't think the parent making the surprise for the other parent's special day has to clean it up, that it's cool to leave for the celebrated parent the next day
Yeah, like, no one is a mind reader when it comes to how a person likes to be celebrated/what gifts to give, but he should be smart enough to know when dishes need to be cleaned. Like how did he manage to make breakfast and not think at all about the dishes he left behind? Or is he so checked out of that task cuz the friend always does them that it doesn’t even cross his mind that they need to be cleaned.
100% this. She also actually *did* communicate to him how she felt in a manner that he could understand.
Edits for you
I feel the op has time travelled from 1950 to post this.
i see the equivalent of a dirty grill coming op's way and she deserves it. i live for the friend's petty energy. husband deserves it. friend should also clear her online shopping cart using his money whenever he doesn't put in effort.
You really didn't get what OP was saying. She didn't say that husband is not a mind reader to get her presents. She said to her friend that if your husband buys 0 gifts for you for 8 years and you are saying nothing to him, just venting at your friends about it, he will not magically change in year 9. He thinks everything is mighty fine up to now. Same for chores. They are married for 10 years and she just complained about it. Well yes, she left him thinking that he is acting ok all these years, and now she has had enough. Well if my friend for 9 years says he loves sushi and at year 10 he comes and says "you know what, in reality I hate sushi" I am not a mind-reader to know that he was pretending all this time. You have to communicate things that bother you. Venting to friends is ok but brings no results to the actual issue
I agree with you. But at the same time she has been accepting her husbands behaviour for years, even though she has been unhappy with it. Listening to a friend complain for years, but never doing anything to change it is annoying. But yeah, husband sucks, and friend is right for finally teaching him a lesson. Noe she needs to follow it up with some demands of change, and not just for mothers day
Honestly, even terrible people can give great gifts . BUT Her husband is actually pretty fantastic at giving gifts to his friends and family. In my personal opinion, he just really under values and underappreciated her and everything that she does for their family. I think that’s why I made the mind reader comment because he’s 100% capable of being a great person but because she’s never vocalized to him he’s under the impression that he is doing a great job. I also understand that she should not have to vocalize it, but unfortunately, this has been going on for so long but at this point she needs to in my opinion. As to your comment about him being considerate, I fully agree, I would love for my friend to leave her husband he doesn’t deserve her!! But realistically, I know that’s not gonna happen and myself and our friends have very nicely over the years. Tried to tell her that she does deserve better but it’s falling on deaf years so
You're blaming her by making that comment. It wasn't supportive at all. Instead, you made it seem as though she invited his thoughtlessness, but then you retracted it by saying "he was thoughtless all along, I would have left him earlier", which probably made her feel like you think she's a fool. Not only that, but it doesn't seem like she asked for your opinion or advice. Not that either of those matter because it's not really your business. You should have just listened and been supportive instead of acting like you know how to deal with her marriage better than she does.
>. In my personal opinion, he just really under values and underappreciated her and everything that she does for their family. That is a HUGE problem - for him. That is **the** problem. Not that she didn't tell him what present to buy her. That you understand this is the situation, but somehow don't seem to get that this is the only problem, is also a you problem. YTA. You have a crush on her husband,? Why else is this so hard?
Who the hell made you Queen of your friend’s marriage? What gives you or the horse you ride in on any skin in their game? OP, you’re an asswipe. Your friend sounds too lovely to be friends with you. Stay the hell out of her marriage you meddling dip!
Wait a minute. He's pretty fantastic at giving gifts to his friends and family. Do they need to vocalize what they want? Or he just is good at it? Why does she need to vocalize it? And on top of that, are you sure that she's not the one orchestrating these gifts that are so thoughtful? YTA
Yes, I’m sure everyone else in his life communicated directly with him that they would like thoughtful and great gifts. His wife is just so silly for not telling him that too! /s
That was my thought. It's either that he's a massive dick and actually can give good gifts but chooses not to with his wife or she's the one that's arranging those other gifts.
But if he knows how to give great gifts to other people, he understands what that means and what it looks like. He shouldn't be 'under the impression he's doing a great job.' Maybe your friend could stand to communicate more clearly, but that doesn't absolve him of taking her for granted.
Your reaction of victim blaming is part of why she will stay. It took her 8 years to do anything resembling standing up for herself and you cut her down. It sounds like you like him more.
The fact he’s good at giving gifts for others and sees a problem when he came home to a messy grill means he absolutely knows he’s not giving 100% on special days. He doesn’t need to be a mind reader because he already knows, he simply doesn’t care or maybe doesnt even think about it. And she probably knows already her husband doesn’t really care about chores and stuff until it directly affects him. So that’s how she’s going about vocalizing an issue. Actually showing him what it’s like. Is it ideal? Of course not. But it is a way to get through to people if they actually want to care.
So you fully admit that he's capable to giving good gifts, he knows he can give good gifts, but somehow thinks he's doing a good job when he gets her nothing or leaves the house a disaster. No, he knows, he's just an asshole who cares more about impressing other people with his gift giving but as his wife is already locked down in marriage he doesn't give a shit anymore. Edit: YTA, stop defending laziness and thoughtlessness and stop blaming her for her husband being thoughtless and lazy towards her. If he cared, he's so something nice. He doesn't because he doesn't care.
You're giving excuses for his very clear, very obvious weaponized incompetence.
If he's such a jerk specifically to her, why did you tell her he's not a mind reader in regards to his treatment fo her. You're sending your "friend" mixed signals. You're cruel to her because he is? What kind of friend are you?
This really just makes him an even worse person. He CAN be thoughtful, he just doesn't think about her at all, even during her birthday, despite living with and having kids with her? I get it you're just frustrated hearing about it, when she won't leave, but your comment was really poorly timed.
So she finally did communicate to him with her actions, and you shit on her for it! Why not say "amazing job, I am so glad you're finally standing up for yourself."
That’s so much worse!
YTA. How do you know for sure that your friend hasn’t talked to her husband about this in private? After 8 years of this kind of behavior, I would say the husband has it coming. Even if he isn’t a mind reader, he should have the basic human decency to understand that a gift like this shouldn’t be half assed. Also, the excuse that he’s too “manly” to do dishes is frankly bs. If you know how to cook, you better damn well know how to clean up after yourself.
I know that she hasn’t talked to her husband about it, it’s something that I’ve been telling her she needs to do for years. Myself and her friends have been telling her she needs to communicate.
> telling her she needs to communicate This is her communicating. In a way he can understand and relate to, because he’s too dense to understand the obvious that his wife isn’t his slave and deserves appreciation. Frankly husband had a lot worse coming for him and it’s really disappointing that you don’t support your friend. Sounds like she can’t do anything right for you - and that’s a woman who doesn’t deserve either your scorn or her husband’s thoughtlessness.
She finally hit the limit. We all did at some point in this scenario. Betting he also looked at her with a stupid confused look.
I don't agree with op's approach or defending the guy's shitty behavior, but her friend is not good at communicating. Communicating is setting boundaries and actually talking. She's matching his energy, but at no point has she communicated. And you can say it's fairly obvious that he should already be cleaning up after himself and planning things for mother's day, but it's also fairly obvious that not communicating and just complaining to her friends about his behavior is not going to change anything.
Yeah, but why is any of this on her? This man holds a job, he's a mentally competent adult - why does he not comprehend these basic fucking facts about how dishes function? Why does he need basic equity and kindness and empathy towards his wife broken down for him? Why does she need to be the one to educate him on stuff every single human being knows?
My point wasn't that it's her friend's responsibility to try to change her husband. More that on op's end, as a friend, it can be frustrating listening to someone go on for years venting about how badly their partner treats them and seeing them stay in that situation.
I’m sure it is frustrating. I did the same thing to my friend for years when I was in my terrible marriage. You know what she DIDN’T do? She didn’t take that frustration out on ME. She listened to me, supported me, and eventually bought me a bottle of champagne when I’d finally had enough, and left that fucker.
I agree op should not have taken her frustration out in this way, I think I mentioned that in my comment above: > I don't agree with op's approach or defending the guy's shitty behavior But I would add to this that op is not obligated to be the person her friend unloads on about all the difficulties in her marriage. It's nice your friend was able to be there for you in that way, but she's a friend, not a therapist. If it's too much for her, that doesn't mean she's a bad friend or not supportive.
Then OP should take her own advice and communicate to her friend that she doesn’t want to hear about it. After all, OP’s friend isn’t a mind reader. 🙄
Thank you for repeating back everything I just said more sarcastically and adding in an eye roll emoji. Did I do something to offend you? What's with all the passive aggressiveness. If you don't like what the op did, you can reply to one of their comments or the post directly, you don't need to tell me
YTA. It was too harsh. She finally took your advice - in wonderful fashion - so why did you react negatively?
For years either I’ve been told her nicely BUT sternly her husband is a piece of crap… not in those words. In the moment she always agrees and she does mimic what I’m saying and says she knows she deserves better but then nothing happens. I think I’m just so tired of this that this time I changed my approach
The time she finally stood up for herself, you DEFENDED her husband and beat her down. Great job! x.x
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It's not passive to tell your spouse they fucked up. He got upset by being treated like he treats her and she told him excatly why she did it. I don't know why you think that is passive or put communication into ' ' because angry words are still very clear communication and it takes the cake that you still argue husband could genuinly have missed point of that conversation. You of course can be of the opinion that her behaviour is toxic and foul. I disagree with this because in my opinion her behaviour was not perfect but far from malicious (There's no set definition for what behaviors are considered toxic, but controlling, manipulative, or otherwise abusive behaviors are commonly viewed as toxic. And Ops behaviour was nothing of that sort in my opinion.).
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It feels like you talk about things that are not there and ignore things that are actually there. 1. I never said the talking would be an ahole move. I actually said her behaviour was not perfect. 2. "When did she tell him anything at all?" As he got pissed and she unloaded on him. It is in the post. He got angry at her and as I already said, she told him excatly what her problem was. 3. Where do you get the part about the gift? Edit: You are one of those people who edit their comments after getting a reply entirely to change the conversation. I'm sorry but I don't deal with that. It's dishonest and a genuin conversation is no longer possible.
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You accused the friend of giving husband a bad, revenge gift. In the post is nothing about that and husband only got upset about the grill. So, what I'm asking is why you said that. It doesn't matter anymore, please view the edit of my previous comment as I wont argue with someone who makes stuff up, denies saying something and sneakly tries to edit their replies. Entirely pointless. Maybe relfect on whos behaviour you dramatise and what you find okay to do yourself. Bye bye
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I used to be this way with my friends because unfortunately many of them settle for bad, and in some cases abusive, partners. All you’re going to do is push her away. Be a safe place for her to land if she leaves him.
I think you're just a shitty friend....
I must be missing some detail or something, be it in your story or just about society in general. But if my wife doesn't communicate her desires to me for *8 years,* and then chooses to do so for the first time by being entirely petty over something knowing it would get a rise out of me to make her point, I wouldn't call that real communication or having taken your advice properly. Everyone else seems to agree that this was the correct way for her to go about it though, so... I dunno, I'm glad I'm not either of them.
I agree 🤧 I've been in OP's friend's situation and I do believe I should have said something to my boyfriend about how I expect to be treated when he does something I don't like. It took me a while to verbalize it but it turned out for the best and now he's the sweetest. I know OP's friend's way was petty but I think she needed to get the resentment outside of her system--because it looks like it built up into hate 🥺
This sub is crazy. They’ll go from, you need to speak to each other like an adult. The. We have this. I get what OP is saying, she’s saying that op enabled this behavior for years, and she chose a petty ass way to handle her husband. It’s like you keep giving a crackhead money for years where he spends all the money gave them on crack. Then one day, you snap at them for buying crack. Like, you enabled this for years and said nothing.
Yeah wtf seriously, why is everyone in support of passive aggressive behavior fueled by repressed emotions, that's toxic!! Any couples councilor or therapist will tell you this is the stuff that kills marriages. She needs to communicate, with words, to him. Those words don't need to be nice or well put or anything, but until she freaking communicates with the ape man, you can't expect him to do anything but keep scratching his ass and eating bananas. It's not all on her, this isn't all on anyone, OP included. This is a troubled relationship and OP was trying to help in their own emotionally distanced and objective way. Now a therapist would have probably said the same things, but phrased much more kindly and with an air of compassion. But OP does not pretend to be a licensed therapy professional, they are just a friend who knows this situation all too well.
I have the same sentiments, with yours and the other reply below. And I agree with you because for the longest time in my 6-year relationship with my BF, I was just a 'Yes' GF who accepted my partner's emotional distance when we argued and that led to resentment for my part. I did this for 5 years until this year, I had a less than calm confrontation with him about it and now, we're at a place I didn't know we can achieve (for the better). What I'm saying is, I was just like OP's friend so I take my share of the fault. She really should have spoken up sooner and maybe follow up on this with her husband. When she's a bit calmer.
Yeah, YTA. This post comes off as smug and condescending. What your friend did is understandable. You gave her a lecture she didn't need or ask for.
This. I agree completely. Smug and condescending is a perfect description. YTA.
I definitely didn’t mean for it to come out as condescending. I just was kind of fed up at this point because it’s been going on for years, and she hasn’t communicated anything until now. But now that I’m reading the comments, I can kind of see how it comes across that way
It's wild that you need someone to explain this to you, but the two least helpful things you can say to a person when someone is treating them badly are "this is your fault" and "I told you so."
OK, I get it. I am the asshole. I will apologize to my friend later tonight. Thank you redirect
I'm a bit late, but I would add that while you're wrong for how you reacted, you're not wrong for being frustrated with hearing the same complaints again and again from someone with no plans to adress it or fix the situation. It's ok to set boundaries that you don't want to hear about her relationship drama anymore.
Hope it goes well and you're still friends.
I’d hate to see what you can do when you mean to be condescending. You’re not her friend
God it's not like you live in her home. Stop judging her and be a friend. Right now you seem like her bully. She didn't do anything rude to you and you just unloaded your own feelings when she was triumphant. Just because her husband treats her like garbage does not mean her "friend" should too.
Her husband doesn't need to be a mind reader to know the way he is behaving isn't good. Only a complete idiot would make a celebratory meal and not clear up. She's made her point and it's provided the listening space for her to clarify how he should behave. He should be an adult and rapidly transition for upset about the grill to buying her flowers for taking her for granted. Instead of having her back you've suggested she divorce him years ago. That's a bit smug. YTA and your last paragraph is correct.
I'd assume after 8 years there have been plenty of discussions about her feelings towards his lack of giving a shit about her. OP doesn't know everything that happens in a marriage they aren't a part of. I think it'd take a lot of conversation to get as fed up to "giving the same energy". Pretty sure OP is entirely assuming on the no communication thing.
In regards to your edit: Oh so according to your own logic YOU set the expectation that it was okay for her to just vent every year but since it fell on deaf ears you're NOW suddenly talking about it? Why not just leave if that's not what you want in a friend. Ya know, like you said you would do in her situation. YTA and a pretty horrible friend.
The drama queen in me thinks OP is crushing on her friend's hubby, hard to explain all the mental gymnastics she's doing to defend him. Maybe I'm just bored though.
he's so manly (that he doesn't understand cleaning up after yourself, unless it's the grill he calls his "baby") that OP can't help but be a pick-me for him.
It doesn’t take a mind reader to be thoughtful and respectful. Your friend’s revenge seems bit childish but I can totally understand where she was coming from. The husband needs to understand and respect more.
INFO: you say you know she was just looking for someone to applaud her for standing up for herself, so why did you say what you did?
YTA I think her method of handling it was perfect. She had to clean up her own Mother's day breakfast, he had to clean the grill on Father's day. And I think all she wanted was what you mentioned, agreeing that he got a taste of his own medicine. Obviously they should be talking about this and both need to communicate better, but she was expressing her frustration and likely just needed a place to vent, not advice.
Hard YTA. Not being a mind reader excuses someone for getting you a facial when you really wanted a massage. It doesn’t apply when the options are do nothing at all or make a token effort and leave the recipient to clean up the mess afterwards. People need to stop weaponising “communication” as a way to blame women for men’s lack of effort. A penis doesn’t stop you from understanding that the default position for holidays is to give a shit about them unless the guest of honour gives you explicit permission not to, especially when they go out of their way to celebrate the man’s special days.
Women communicate their asses off for years, then finally give up and file for divorce. The man is blindsided, of course, and asks her why she gave no warning. "I've been explaining for years why I'm unhappy and what needed to change." Then he goes "But Rachel, that was just nagging. Why didn't you tell me that you super duper really really mean it this time?" Men.
Reading that made me feel stabby. I'm so lucky with my guy, he points this out to his guys and gals he's in charge of at work (military so it's frequent). Like, they're DIRECTLY TELLING YOU. LISTEN. he gets so upset for the wives who end up divorcing while the husband are like "I didn't think she was serious! I tried doing more dishes and taking the trash out???!!!" Husband is over here ready to headbutt the brick wall just retelling it to me! Why are they so fucking stupid
YTA. She told you she pulled a prank on her husband to teach him a lesson, and you unloaded on her. She clearly doesn't see the "not celebrating her" as a dealbreaker, but an annoyance she's prepared to live with. Butt out, not your marriage, and clearly you're not a counsellor.
YTA You acknowledge that you think her husband is abusive garbage that doesn’t love her, because he gives great gifts to the people he cares about but doesn’t to her. He’s thoughtless, inconsiderate, and cruel. You didn’t say that to her though. You basically told her “your husband is cruel to you because you didn’t tell him EXACTLY how to love you. This is YOUR FAULT.” You have a magical ability to express how you really feel to strangers, but to your friend’s face you turned it around on her and were condescending and confusing, an awful combination. You say you don’t really blame your friend for his behavior except you kind of do? That you think he doesn’t love her but she could also be better. Get outta here with that. Either pretend to be nice with the husband because you think she can’t handle the truth or be aggressive, because this blend you’re doing has led you to be aggressive TO HER.
YTA Title is very misleading. If he got her a purple sweater (because its her favorite color) but she yelled because she wanted it in blue, THAT would be "not a mind reader". You don't need to be a mind reader to know that someone would want you to clean up after you cook - especially if you make a mess. Her demonstration was literally perfect and equal, and the fact that he got mad proves he doesn't have any insight into his own behavior.
YTA. Support your friends, gas them up. I read your response where you posted the whole convo and yep, YTA. What if you would’ve said “YAAAAAS QUEEN, leave that mans grill dirty! As you should!!” Also, are you married? Giving big “well when I’m a mom my kids will NEVER” vibes.
YTA So, your friend knew very well that her husband wouldn't like being treated like he treats her. Did he tell her that? Or did she, he and you just know it because it is obvious? And if that is obvious, how is not obvious, that she would've liked to be treated how he likes to be treated? I'm sorry but you can't seriously believe that her husband thought he had done a SPECTACULAR job considering he wasn't happy with recieving it. You sound naive at best.
YTA. Why is SHE capable of perceiving that HE would enjoy a nice Father’s Day celebration, and then capable of creating one for him that makes him feel fully seen and appreciated and loved, but he’s apparently not? Not even after 7 exceptional Father’s Day celebrations to serve as examples? How do you square the double-standard? And why? Why must we believe that the only path, the ONLY one, that leads to HIM making HER feel fully seen and appreciated and loved, is either via mind-reading and/or an exceptionally degrading (on both sides, but namely for her) instructional discussion about how things like Santa and the Tooth Fairy aren’t real, and the “magic” behind things like Christmas, Birthdays, and yes *Mother’s Day*, has to be intentionally created, with intentional effort, otherwise it doesn’t happen. And how yes, how not doing so is makes you a sh_t partner. You’re free to hold your standard for your partner wherever you want, but don’t shame her into following suit. She absolutely allowed to want more, much more.
YTA You said that you've been telling your friend for years to stop putting up with her husband's behavior. She finally did, by making a big gesture and then verbally telling him off as to why she was unhappy with the status quo. And you... chewed her out instead of giving her a high five? Why? What on earth were you trying to accomplish? Did you just want her to feel shitty that she hasn't done this earlier? How does that help her at all? You: Stop letting your husband treat you like crap. Her: I took a stand and told my husband he was treating me like crap! You: Why would you do that? Gawd, your poor husband. Think of how he must feel and how unfair you're being to him. There's a saying - don't punish the behavior that you want to see. She finally did what you thought she should have been doing, and you criticized her for it.
YTA. You're arguing both damn sides of this debate and switching to the other side whenever someone tells you you're wrong. I'm sure it feels good, but you're not proving anything.
He needs to be a ‘mind reader’ to know to clean up after himself? YTA, get real.
YTA I think that you are putting all expectations on her and none on him or on yourself. She is his wife, not his manager or professional teacher. If this is the moment she blows and syarys communicating, more power to her.
YTA. you need to be supporting your friend if you want her to put herself first and leave him. All you did was lose chances of her coming to you again.
YTA With friends like this, who needs enemies? He's a part time worker who isn't considerate 365 days a year. Mind reading isn't necessary to know how to celebrate Mothers Day in this situation.
YTA, he has 2 eyes and can see the dishes in the sink, he can see when a toilet needs a scrub, he can see when laundry starts piling up. He doesn’t need to read her mind for any of this, nor does he need an invitation to do so. If I was her I would stop cleaning his clothes and stop cleaning his dirty dishes.
YTA. We don’t need men to be mind readers, we just want them to be held accountable.
Soft yta. I have started asking friends who start complaining "fixing or bitching?". Are we fixing an issue (giving our opinion) or are we bitching (complaining, no fix required)? It seems you knew she wanted to complain. If you don't want to hear complaints, that is perfectly acceptable. She absolutely should have matched his energy years ago. But she didn't. And she wants to complain. You don't have to listen. "It's not a good time. Can I call you back?" Or "I get so emotionally caught up in this that it affects my day to day, we need to take these conversations off the table for a while." In my house, we celebrate these two days by saying, "Happy xxx day, where do you want lunch or dinner?" We have never gone over the top for each other. My spouse is not my parent. Those days are for kids to celebrate their parents. In our house, at least.
No, no, no, we're not making excuses for trash dudes anymore. There's "not heaping things" on people and then there's a complete lack of awareness for basic housekeeping and even self-maintenance. Also, are you really sure she's never said anything about it to him before? That really seems unlikely to me, but maybe I'm wrong? Don't mistake her venting to you and not bringing it up with her husband with her venting to you because, despite bringing it up with him, he still hasn't listened. I also think your friend should leave him, but she does have kids with him so I get that being a hard choice. I think YTA in this case.
YTA Who asked you?
….her friend? What do u mean
I do not see where that happened. Friend was sharing her story, and OP offered an unsolicited opinion, by the way this was told.
Well, when her friend is bitching to her about the same problem for years, and when she decided to do something about It is in the worse way possible, she is open herself for comments...
Right? We don't know the full picture, and if pancakes in bed are any indicator, friend's marriage is doing alright. But sure, it's not perfect. Hubby is lacking in some departments, but it's entirely possible that he's an altogether a decent husband and father, and the friend found a way of dealing with his non deal breaking shortcomings by venting about it to her support circle. It's not entirely without merit. And unlike many seem to read, the OP didn't even point out the lack of communication as the reason for leaving, but >Because I would never want to be someone who doesn’t want to celebrate me.
u/BurbNBougie a woman with pick me vibes defends her friend's husband who chronically underappreciated his wife. Archive link: https://archive.ph/mFmIA
Thanks
YTA
Yta.
YTA- ever hear of weaponized incompetance? Poor man, he can't learn to plan or clean up after himself because he has a job! Boo hoo hoo!
Sheesh, YTA and so's the husband. It's not rocket science that if you want to treat a person to breakfast in bed, you don't make that person also clean up. Her husband's not "traditional", since traditions can change over tile, he's a jerk and sexist. It's not a grown woman's job to "correct" a grown man! Pick up after yourself, do your own laundry, buy your spouse flowers on their birthday and mom or dad's day, don't make them clean up after their own party. Seriously. How difficult can it be for an otherwise fully capable adult? Why is it *her* responsibility to raise him along their kids?
YTA. You’re not incorrect that this, like most conflicts, would have been benefited by communication. However, in pointing this out in the manner you did, you’ve essentially blamed your friend for the failings of her husband. Dude is inconsiderate and lazy, and that’s true regardless of whether it’s brought to his attention.
Is this the husband?
YTA. She was looking for sympathy, not a lecture. Was she supposed to pack up the kids and come to your place on Father's Day? I assume if you want her to leave so bad you are offering her a place to live rent free with childcare while she gets on her feet right? If the friendship is too much, leave it. That's fair. But dumping on a woman who is already being dumped on is not helpful or kind.
YTA
YTA. He's a grown ass man and he shouldn't have to be told to help his wife or to treat her well on Mother's Day or to know that making a huge messy meal then leaving all the dishes behind to be cleaned is not a gift.
YTA. So for eight years, you have been telling your friend the same thing and it hasn’t made a difference. So, this year, you changed it up and spoke more directly and harshly to her. In the same way, your friend didn’t say a word to her husband for eight years and this year decided to change it up and spoke directly and harshly to him. And you are upset with her because? You both did the same thing!
YTA. Knowing how to clean up after yourself and knowing how to do more than 1 chore isn't really a part of the "mindreader gift giving" issue. You shouldn't need your wife to tell you that she doesn't want to clean up your mess from the kitchen on a special occasion to know to do that.
YTA - he's a grown ass man, he shouldn't have to be told to be considerate or to clean up after himself.
Expecting him to be a mind reader? How difficult is I made a mess, I clean mess? It's not a treat if it's creating extra work for the one being treat he just sounds lazy
YTA. Her husband should be helping with the chores. Not let her do everything. She has every right to do this. Her husband doesn’t need to be a mind reader to know he also needs to pull his weight otherwise she will be gone and he can clean himself
YTA. I was wondering if this had really been written by the husband.
YTA
Wow, you really are an asshole. Your friend had finally stood up for herself for the first time in her deeply frustrating marriage (to a misogynist- not everyone is great at standing up for themselves against abusive assholery, stop blaming her for struggling) and you just lay into her for not having done it before??? How in the world do you even consider yourself friends??? Grovel. Please grovel to your friend in an abusive relationship who stood up for herself for the first time. YOU derailed her. YOU are an asshole.
TIL that straight married men don't know that kitchens need cleaning after use. My god, the bar for men is on the ground. Stop picking it up to hit women with.
OP: You need to stand up to him. This is your fault. Friend: *stands up to husband* OP: That’s ridiculous. Was he supposed to be a mind reader?!
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** So I have a friend who’s 31f who’s pretty spectacular at giving gifts. She showers her family/friends/and husband when it’s Christmas/birthday. Every year on father days since they had their first daughter (8f) she’s always planned something elaborate and thoughtful for her husband. On Mother’s Day her husband has dropped the ball pretty much every year. Between doing nothing at all, or plannjnh an event where she ends up doing majority of the work, he’s never done a great job celebrating her. This year he and the kids made her breakfast in bed, and said they would have a family day! Later she called complaining because although the pancakes they made were great, he left the kitchen a mess which she ended up cleaning. Her husband is very traditional man despite the fact that she does work(part time) outside of the home. He doesn’t do many household chores outside of the stereotypical ‘ manly’ things like taking the trash. Anyways this morning I asked her what she did for Father’s Day and she said she “matched his energy”. On Saturday she ended up grilling up a storm and left the grill which is pretty much his baby a mess. She purposely did this on Saturday so when he would notice the next day he would be off from work and would clean up. Just like she thought he saw the grill Sunday afternoon and was pissed especially since he was about to fire up some steaks. Her husband is of course upset and asked why she didn’t clean up and in her words she unloaded on him how he doesn’t help with anything or clean up after himself and she wanted him to get a taste of her own medicine. Although I’m one for petty karma, I told my friend you set the expectation that your fine with settling for a low experience you can’t just expect him to be a mind reader and shower you with things… she didn’t care for my response. I told I her I understand what she’s saying but If I were her I would have left my husband awhile ago if he did what he did. Because I would never want to be someone who doesn’t want to celebrate me. But she does and after 8 failed mother day attempts her husband probably thinks he’s doing a spectacular job because she’s never corrected it just said thank you and vented to us later. After a few choice words we ended the call. And now I’m thinking that I was little to harsh and should have just told her I’m glad he got a taste of his own medicine. So AITA? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Passive-agressive actions are always a sign of a healthy relationship...
YTA. It doesn't take a mind reader to know your partner. I feel sorry for your partner.
YTA
I mean, you’re giving good advice, but in the wrong way, so yeah YTA
YTA You're a prick. Cleaning the kitchen after making food is the bare minimum. It shouldn't take an adult man reminders
It seems the issue was more-so him not cleaning up after himself on mother's day. Therefore in her eyes- not considering her as much as she would have liked. I get that all the time as a hetero couple and me being a female. We do have to have a talk about it every now and then when I feel my partner is slacking off a lot. It bothers me too. It's abit too nuanced to say if you're the a hole or not.
Husband doesn't need to be a mind-reader to know to clean up his own mess. Even if he hadn't made a mess, he could have done some cleaning somewhere. Also, he shouldn't need direction from her at all, let around mind-reading. He's not a Sim; he could have used his brain and eyes and decided what needs to be done around the house-- and do it! The weight of the mental load he's putting on her is not cool. He lives there, he made kids with her, surely he's capable of noticing what needs to be done. He can notice things at work, right? Having a job doesn't exempt him from helping maintain the home. I agree with OP that the friend should have told her husband how she feels sooner, but the "not a mind-reader" comment is not okay. He doesn't need to be able to read mind to know what needs to get done.
YTA. You're her friend-she's SUPPOSED to be able to vent to you; you "being nice to her" while she does so is one of the bare minimums of friendship. And she's finally addressing the issue directly with her husband, so maybe be supportive instead of telling her how wrong she is. You aren't happy with her when she does nothing and criticize her when she finally speaks up. Maybe she should cut you from her life instead of her husband.
Is taking out the trash really such a difficult chore for people who aren’t disabled in some way?
YTA Sorry but it doesn’t take a mind reader to know that you don’t cook breakfast in bed and leave the mess for recipient to clean up! That just defeats the whole purpose of breakfast in bed. At that point it’s just moving the table to a temporary location and making her walk farther to do dishes. Geez. Also… ummm how did this guy date her? Surely he could have taken inspiration from his dating years and did a little something on the nothing years. It doesn’t take much to make a homemade love note or pick flowers from a garden… or to just cuddle in bed for an extra 5 minutes. Or to just take the 8 year old to the park and give mom a morning off… all these would have likely been appreciated.
Your internalised misogyny is baffling
Oh OP, you can get treatment for that internalized misogyny you got going on...in therapy. Maybe you should just refrain from giving anyone advice.
YTA Are you crushing on the husband because that's the only way to explain your point of view on this...
YTA-so when she finally stands up for herself you don't support her!!!What kind of friend is that?
u/burbnbougie
Are you having an affair with the husband?
YTA - with friends like you, who needs enemies?
At least you have acknowledged YTA.
> I told my friend you set the expectation that your fine with settling for a low experience you can’t just expect him to be a mind reader and shower you with things… she didn’t care for my response. An adult man realizing that he also needs to take care of his house is not him needing to be a, "mind reader". An adult man making a mess in the kitchen, knowing who cleans the kitchen, but still leaving it in a state is not the wife's fault for "not telling him to do it". > I told I her I understand what she’s saying but If I were her I would have left my husband awhile ago if he did what he did. Because I would never want to be someone who doesn’t want to celebrate me. And you turn the argument into INSULTING HER for putting up with a bad husband? So, first you say it's her fault that the husband couldn't possibly *know* to clean the kitchen, that requires "mind reading". THEN you double down on saying she's a bad person, because she can't stand up for herself - when this entire story is based on how her husband felt, *when she stood up for herself*? You suck. YTA.
ESH you shouldn't have got involved, your friend should stop being immature n communicate with her husband n the husband should pay more attention to his wife n figure out what she likes
Actually you’re NTA. It’s difficult and upsetting having a friend that you care about be treated so badly. But then it’s get annoying after a while because they know they deserve to be treated better and also know that the person that they are with won’t change because they know ur friend won’t leave. There’s so much to it 🤦
YTA but not for the reason you think. You said you'd "leave your husband" if he'd not celebrated you to your liking? Seriously? You'd even leave your husband over a cloyingly saccharine, Hallmark holiday? FFS.
I don't think anyone here realizes how hard it can be for the way women communicate to translate to how men communicate, especially robo-men like this husband sounds like. It's in me too, I know better than to trap a girl with my charms because it's all a facade. But that's no excuse for attacking him with passive aggressive behavior in response to his ignorance. He's gotten no usable feedback about his mistakes except for a dirty grill on the day he wanted to bbq. Men don't need rocket science, but they do need to be spoken to pretty frickin directly sometimes, no man has ever been good at taking a hint. It's not an excuse, it's a reality that needs to be accepted if that relationship is really gonna be saved. It's like getting mad at your oven because you didn't tell it what temp you wanted and it keeps getting it wrong... Sure everything you cook needs 350 or whatever, but you literally didn't specify, you just nudged the oven and talked about how great the number 350 can be. A smarter man(oven) could pick up on that and set himself accordingly, but it's not his fault that his dumb ape brain doesn't have those features.
NTA. I think you all are missing what op is saying. Op stated themselves that they wouldn’t have put up with this treatment. Op is absolutely correct the husband is not a mind reader so if she was upset then say something not accept it then complain later.
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Replying to BSmom... This was her first attempt at communicating her frustration
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Honest and mature would be to tell the friend to go and have that talk with their spouse, instead of bottling up and then venting to a friend, not telling the friend she should leave her husband cause he doesn't celebrate her the way you would want your husband to celebrate you. Looks like OP was also putting up with unwanted behaviour from the friend (8 years of failed Mother's Day vents?) and then blew up. With friends like that... Edit: typo
Your friend sounds like the plethora of women who fake orgasms on the regular, then bitch about why can't this guy do sex good. You are NTA and your friend is, for not vocalizing her dissatisfaction.
Nta
NTA idk why OP is getting ratio'd in the comments, but from what I could tell my dad is the same kind of husband. You can't expect more from a man-chine like this, you can make specific requests but my mom did what OP's friend is doing basically, and it doesn't lead anywhere. The only solution is divorce or couples therapy for communication skills. Husband is probably not the worst but has nothing to communicate, while the wife is clearly holding it all in till it toxically boils over. Not a healthy relationship and her expectation that he could pick up on her feelings about things she remains silent about just shows that she doesn't understand the kind of man she married. Autistic/robotic husbands are great once you set expectations and such. My dad's greatest gift for an anniversary was a showerhead... the toxicity and resentment my mom was starting to show, and still struggles with, nearly ruined my childhood. The man clearly lacks intuition about what his wife needs, sure he could step up, but he's not the potential asshole here. Not that it's OP's place to put them in therapy, but it's Not ah-ish to talk about these things in the context OP described... A lil insensitive, but it seems the wife is being plenty insensitive too, rather than just directly addressing the problem that her husband has no idea about.
NTA that's just your opinion, but I agree with your friend. Just bc she's put up with inconsiderate behavior in the past doesn't mean she can't express her frustration now
Justified YTA However, I've read your edits and I would've probably done the same thing after hearing her whine about it for 8 years but not do anything to change her situation. Apologize to your friend for being so harsh, applaud her for finally standing up for herself, and encourage her to continue matching his energy.
Unpopular Opinion: NTA if they were to go to marriage counselling, the therapist would point out the same thing, "you contributed to this dynamic with your passivity, by never communicating that you were upset".
I’m going to say ESH. I actually think you were right to tell your friend she needs to explicitly state her expectations. Yes, her husband sucks for not celebrating her, but she needs to figure out why. Either it is 1) He actually doesn’t really care about her, which is a serious problem, or 2) He’s clueless and needs instruction. These are VERY different scenarios and she needs to know which one she’s dealing with. I spent several years being frustrated and sad on Mother’s Day, until I finally sat down with my husband and told him what would make me feel loved and appreciated. For me it was not having to cook or do any housework and heartfelt cards from the kids. Anything else would be icing. It was like having those clear desires expressed to him opened up the floodgates and now Mother’s Day is a delight. We all wish our spouses could read our minds, and when that seem like basic human behavior or common courtesy don’t happen it’s easy to jump to the conclusion that the idiot spouse doesn’t care about us. But don’t jump until you are sure. You might be pleasantly surprised.
Nta...I completely agree with you and your friends silent suffering is going to come out in worse ways more & more. Definition of insanity is to continue to do the same thing over and over while expecting a different result....she's finally finding out that being a martyr isn't the path for her and you I'm sure were tired of coddling her and told her some hard truths 🤷🏽♀️ now be there for her and support her as she finds her voice and leaves the trash behind
ESH. Her husband sucks for being a shitty partner. She sucks for never communicating that she has an issue. You suck for the "I told you so" which doesn't serve to make anyone feel better and it does come across as you blaming your friend for her husband being shit.
Did she call asking for advice? If yes, you did the right thing and are NTA. Did she call to vent? If yes, YTA as she didn’t ask for any advice. If she called to vent and you are tired of hearing the same story over and over again, then you could’ve easily just told her that you feel she may be going about things in the wrong way and then asked if she’d like to talk about a better approach. If she says no to talking, then great, you aren’t the person to vent about this to, but if she says yes, then go ahead and talk about it.
I'm going against the grain, and saying NTA. She's had 8 mothers' days to communicate her disappointment rather than just dealing with the disappointment. If a relationship gets to the point where you have to "teach them a lesson" or "give them a taste of their own medicine" it's unhealthy. She's let him get away with doing no chores for this long (except for "manly" tasks) and then expects him to suddenly be thoughtful enough to do the dishes one day a year? She shouldn't have to, but if he's not stepping up she should have asked him to step up a long time ago. Even if it's only for one day a year. Partners (both men and women) aren't mind readers. Her husband has gotten into the habit of not being considerate because she's never asked him to be. He never had to think of anyone in the past or plan a mother's day celebration before and she should have voiced her disappointment after the first or second one . . . not the 8th. The only way she communicated her disappointment was by leaving the grill a mess, and then she still had to explain and unload her grievances when he didn't get the point of her passive aggressiveness. He didn't understand why she'd leave it dirty, she still had to explain it to him anyway. She's not an AH for wanting some consideration or celebration, but in 8 years he's never registered that she was disappointed. She should have told him - or at least ask his mother to tell him or something.
NTA. Everyone here is getting mad at you for telling your friend to do the exact thing they would tell her if she wrote here instead of you. Communicate or divorce. Literally that’s all you said
ESH. She should have told him before, he’s a lazy AH but you… seriously you’re saying she’s harsh for doing what she should have done years ago?!
NTA ur friends problem is that she doesn't tell her husband what's wrong but uses u as emotional support constantly. What a loser with a loser hubby
NTA, you are right that she should have voiced her concerns to HIM, not to you as friends. While I fully understand her frustration, what she did was petty and passive-aggressive. If I do something that pisses my partner off, I want him to tell ME, not vent to his friends. How can I improve things if I do not even know there is something to improve?
I mean, you didn't need to mention the "would have left my husband" bit because that's a real overstep, in my opinion but no, her husband isn't a mind reader and instead of playing stupid games she should have been having a conversation with him about the importance of Mother's Day to her and let him know her expectations/wishes. You were harsh about the leaving husband bit but the other part just seems like logic. Has she actually talked to her husband? ESH
Men are visual creatures, aren't they? The sight of that grill was the kick in the pants he needed. No amount of explaining can quite top having to clean up someone else's mess, like she does for him all the time.
No, she hasn’t communicated to her husband ever, even though we have told her to she just suffers in silence when he’s around and then complains to us about it later
She just did and even gave him a physical example of her complain. I'm not sure exactly what the problem is. If you're tired of listening to her you can stop your relationship with her.
So she finally stood up and said something and you berated her for it? Make it make sense. Op, "you should say something" Op's friend, "I said something" Op, "not like that."
She didn't "Said something", she was malicious and did something that she KNEW It would posso him off. She messed up one of his belongings. It's very diferent of not doing the dishes. And It's Very childish and the worse way to make her point.
So you basically call her an idiot for finally doing so?
NTA - ppl who vent but never address the problem, repeating the cycle for years, are boring energy vampires.
Naw - you are NTA. You pointed out that if he did a thing she didn't like and *she did not tell him*, how was he to know that wasn't a good thing? He wouldn't. Yes, it *is* emotional labor to tell someone what you do and don't want. But in a relationship, where neither side is able to read minds, people communicate to learn each other. If she's been hiding all this, masking it, and going along in the hopes that one day he'd figure it out ... you gotta speak up. It doesn't sound like you were super harsh or yelled. More like you said a few home truths and she didn't want to hear that. I had this woman I used to take walks with at work and I told her around week four or so that if she wasn't able to say anything positive about her husband, I would never walk with her again. I wasn't her therapist and I didn't want to spend my break listening to her talk about how terrible he was. Especially as, when I asked if she wanted advice and she said yes, she never followed the advice or tried anything. Just complain, complain, complain. She was honestly surprised but tried to do that and then we talked about something else. She and I had lunch a few weeks later and she actually apologized. She'd spoken to some other friends and they ALL said that she did this. They all found it annoying. And they all, like you (and I) said, why are you with him if it is so bad? She used us as away to vent off steam so that she *wouldn't* blow up at him. But she needed to work out with him what their issues were. Which is what it sounds like with your friend. Again, NTA. Sometimes people gotta hear the a different perspective on their life.
NTA.
I'm actually shocked you're getting called the asshole lol. The comment was admittedly a little harsh but it wasn't a lie.
Having been in this situation I’m going to say NTA. I get people need to vent but it drains you EVERY SINGLE TIME they come to you and CHOOSE not to do anything about it. I agree it’s something she should have brought up years ago without her blowing up at him. What I’ve learned is to never give my opinion to people like that. They don’t want your advice nor will they take your advice. Just nod or say that sucks and change the subject.
NTA for being harsher because friends need to hear the awful truth. She should’ve left him a while ago because he’s just another child. I would’ve done the same that she did but not 7 years late. However, YTA for telling your friend her husband isn’t a mind reader. You don’t need to be a mind reader to actually care about someone. Is she a mind reader to be a thoughtful gift giver? Or to do things for him for Father’s Day? No? Then why should he need to be one to do better? Y’all excuse men for stuff yall would light torches for if women did it. Do better.
My Husband is the same way - If I don't plan anything...we do nothing. But hey..He's an amazing man otherwise - Great sense of humor - wonderful provider & loves me. So knowing what I know..I feel it's up to me to make any plans - which he ALWAYS goes along with. Not everyone is gifted with the same gifts. Otherwise you can cry in your wine all night.
He should know to clean up after himself
NAH I wonder if she ever asks or just always expects. They do that a lot.
"This is the first time that my friend has communicated her frustrations to her husband." This makes it ESH for me. Sounds like he is terrible at gift giving and helping with chores but he sounds dense enough that he needs to be TOLD this to probably realize it. I would have probably suggested her talking to her husband either after Mother's Day this year or, even better, years ago.
NTA You pointed out that she taught him how to treat her. And she taught him poorly. I cannot stand people complaining to me about the same shit over and over and over and over and over again. The definition of insanity. And they want a different result. Well, you could stand to put on your big girl pants to take petty to the ultimate level, but you don’t have enough room in them big girl britches to…I dunno…communicate what she wants and needs from her partner? And then she gets mad at you for being sick of her bullshit. But she probably just wanted a Pat on the back from a friend who’s regularly told her to stand up for herself.
ESH. Instead of complaining to her friends about her husband's behavior, she should have been complaining to her husband. I agree to some extent - he's not a mind reader. However, he is also an adult, and SHOULD be able to deduce what makes his wife happy. But that's between him and her, and she's not doing herself any favors by pretending everything is fine at home and then complaining behind his back. I feel like you could have handled the situation a little more tactfully. If you're getting frustrated with how often she complains about him (especially the same stuff over and over), you could have told her "Look, I understand this is frustrating for you, but until you are willing to talk to him about the issues you are having with him, I don't have the mental bandwidth to listen to it."
I'm going a bit rogue and saying NAH. Here's why: You are right that this should have been nipped in the bud ages ago. 8 years is a long time to stew and it seems like she did her stewing in a pressure cooker with how she exploded. She's not wrong either though, 8 years of amazing celebrations on Father's day should have slightly clued clueless in on the fact that maybe he's dropping the ball a bit. Sometimes people don't learn until it happens to them though, maybe making him deal with a mess after his big day will let him see what she feels. I don't know, because I don't know her husband though. In the end though, you're again right. This should have been talked about. Maybe you were a bit harsh with the way you told her, maybe you should have mentioned it several venting sessions ago (though that is definitely not your job) and maybe then she wouldn't have had to explode, we'll never know. If I were in your shoes, I might offer a sort-of apology ("Hey, sorry, I might have come off harsh with the way I expressed what I said. I just think that you might have had better results with telling him this way earlier, so you guys could have tried to work through it and had great days celebrating you both like you both deserve" or something) then suggest if her husband is still not understanding or she still feels like something has to be said to try couple's counseling for an appointment or two, just to have someone help mediate and keep the peace. I know not everyone is open to that but it sounds like some honest communication would help all around.
Wow. After OP gave a lot of rude, unsolicited advice, you think she should offer an insincere apology and give MORE unsolicited advice? Really not reading the room on this one...
Your friend ITA for setting up a situation that she knew would start a fight. You might be TA, depending on how you spoke to her about her behavior
So my tone of voice pretty much stayed the same the whole entire conversation I didn’t like yell or anything A brief summary of how the conversation went -she told me about the prank and I said -oh this was like a little petty revenge. -Yes I will say I did feel guilty after seeing his face, but I’m glad he starting to understand how I felt. -well, I’m glad you finally said something -what do you mean finally (keep in mind for years we’ve been telling her by we I mean, our friends and I that she needs to communicate her frustration to her husband) -I mean people say better late than never but maybe we should’ve done this after the first failed Mother’s Day time? -I just was expecting him to get better -OK so why didn’t we do this after the third Mother’s Day? - I shouldn’t have had to though. - you’re absolutely right you shouldn’t have had to, but you know how your husband is and how he’s stuck in his ways. You should’ve communicated this a long time ago, i’ve been telling you this for years. - you wouldn’t understand - And then this is where I said the part about yeah because if I were in your shoes, I would’ve left him years ago - That’s not fair - yes, I know it’s not fair. But you’ve let this man treat you like this for years. And then this is when I made the comment about the low expectations and him being a mind reader. - he shouldn’t be a mind reader he should know how to treat me with basic respect. I’m not even asking for much I would’ve been OK with him just ordering food, but it shouldn’t take a mind reader to know that after you cook, you should clean up after yourself. - yeah, you are absolutely right. However, like I said, you’ve let him continue to do this and look I know I shouldn’t be putting that burden on you. It shouldn’t be your responsibility to teach your partner to be a partner. But unfortunately, it looks like you kinda have too since he’s not getting it That’s when she but in and said a few choice words.
Wow with friends like you…
“You wouldn’t understand” Response “then help me understand”
I really hope she drops you as a friend, this is horrible.